Chemical weapons to International Group

Posted by: DLC

Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/10/13 08:44 AM

News stories are flying that Assad (due to Russian pressure I'm sure) has tentatively agreed to turn over stockpiles to an International group....

I hope this transpires, as it will defuse the situation !

IF SO, BO gets a big win... not for anything he had to do but he pushed it to this resolution.

Wonder what the Rush's, Sean's and Bill O's will have to say about that. Yesterday, Rush called BOs Syrian policy "shuck & jive"... racial bastid !! mad
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/11/13 11:54 PM

Everywhere I read is that it's more of a coup for Putin.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 12:57 AM

Yeah I mean we need everyone on board the Chemical Weapons Convention if possible... hopefully non-member states or entities still struggling with the moral case for membership such as North Korea and Israel will follow Syria's lead.

km
Posted by: DLC

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 05:53 AM

Probably is, but BO will get some credit for pushing it to this resolution... had he not pursued it, Assad may have already used them again. So yes, Putin is the bigger player after all he has >>> pull with Syria than we do.... but even he wouldn't be asking Assad to do this had the US not stepped up and applied pressure. And BO gets significant credit because no other nations stepped in with him... it's been mainly his "game" since the UK bowed out.

I want to see how Fox is going to spin this if it goes through. (fingers crossed) eek
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 09:22 AM

Oh...so now it was his plan all along to push this issue (bombing) until they cave?

yeah, that's a good one! Come on, seriously? Obama was going to go through with this strike (and who knows, just still might do it) and was absolutely lucky that Putin has his head on straight in this matter.

Read Putin's OPed here: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinio...-share&_r=0

What's absolutely crazy is that the man running the country that ruled the USSR back in the day...the ones we hated...makes a hell of a lot more common sense than our own president.

I just shake my head. Never would have thought to have seen it in my lifetime.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 09:37 AM

Quote:
"Syria is handing over its chemical weapons under international supervision because of Russia," Assad said in the interview. "The US threats did not influence the decision," he added. Syria will now give the United Nations the documents required for the procedure, Assad added.


Yeah, right.
Amazing... why didn't Russia just ask nicely years ago... ?

Quote:
Syria will fulfill an initiative to hand over its chemical weapons only when the United States stops threatening to strike Syria, RIA news agency quoted…


Also can be read as "U.S. will stop threats of force when Syria quits using WMD."
Posted by: garyW

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 09:54 AM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Oh...so now it was his plan all along to push this issue (bombing) until they cave?
yeah, that's a good one! Come on, seriously?


Without firing a single bullet, dropping a single bomb, or not a single death, Obama's strategy forced Putin to do a complete reversal of his hardline stance on the UN and Syrian, have Syria do a complete reversal from denial that they even had chemical weapons to agreeing they'd reveal and destroy them and sign onto the international ban …. and pretty much turn the GOP into diplomacy-embracing peaceniks as well as obliterating the Bush Doctrine from all future presidents.

Yes, seriously.

And President Obama obviously doesn't give a f*ck that you, the opinion polls, and the media think of his show of military force to get diplomacy, that all of this just happened all of the sudden with no planning and you want to praise Putin as a diplomatic genius. You'd think the media might be concerned about the large number of conservative pundits and Congressional Republicans who are now saying that the US military is weak, ineffective, and unable to accomplish what defense dept. leaders say they are capable of. That's kinda bad stuff to be telling our enemies out around the world.

Oh, and what Putin forgot to mention in his NYT op-ed: http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/12/dispatches-what-putin-didn-t-tell-american-people

Posted by: keymaker

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 10:17 AM

Quote:
why didn't Russia just ask nicely years ago... ?
Because they recognised that possession served as a deterrent against entities posing a similar threat to Syria such as Israel which refused to ratify the Convention. Now that Russia has taken the lead it's up to the US and Israel to do the right thing and follow Syria's example.

km
Posted by: DLC

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 10:39 AM

John I think it's an unintended consequence...

yes BO never dreamed Russia would cooperate, but BO DID plan a retaliation. However in a turn of events, Russia figured it best to get Syrian chemical weapons destroyed... NOT because of us or Syria itself, but they have their own civil unrest to deal with in places like Chechnya, and they don't want to face rogue elements using chemical weapons either... I think they're doing it for their OWN interests.... Putin sure isn't doing it as a favor to us.

BUT regardless here we are, planned or not, and it would NOT have happened if BO had turned a blind eye.. like most the rest of the world. Assad would keep them and probably would have already used them again by now...

also many on the right are saying verify, verify, verify, ... and are skeptical... well verification is easy ! IF he has them and uses them, the whole world will know. It's not like something you can hide. Other than that it really doesn't matter if he has none, 1 rocket or 50. The object is for them NOT to be used. BUT regardless, I'm sure they'll have UN inspectors come in to check... but then that gets to be a game like with Saddam...how do you prove you DON'T have something? I guess the clue would be if he limits access to any where the inspectors want to go.

Regardless if Assad turns them over to anyone, Russia, UN, any other international group for destruction... this situation is OVER... Putin and BO get the credit.
THIS is Obama's Cuban Missile Crisis. in a way.. and if this WMD turnover happens- he prevails, aka Jack Kennedy !!

Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 10:53 AM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
why didn't Russia just ask nicely years ago... ?
Because they recognised that possession served as a deterrent against entities posing a similar threat to Syria such as Israel which refused to ratify the Convention. Now that Russia has taken the lead it's up to the US and Israel to do the right thing and follow Syria's example.

km

You obviously don't know sarcasm when you hear it. Which I find incredible to believe....lol.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 11:12 AM

Whoops... I admit I might be a bit slow with that... !

km
Posted by: Mike

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 12:30 PM

"Regardless IF Assad turns them over to anyone, Russia, UN, any other international group for destruction..."---

They are shipping them out of the country!
Posted by: DLC

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 12:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Mike
"Regardless IF Assad turns them over to anyone, Russia, UN, any other international group for destruction..."---

They are shipping them out of the country!


One option is their destruction in Syria but with UN & Russian oversight... not sure what the logistics are.

. . . another option is to return them to Russia and request a refund !! whistle
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 12:59 PM

Quote:
another option is to return them to Russia...
Nah, I mean since the Blair government supplied them they ought really to be returned to us.

km
Posted by: DLC

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 01:10 PM

Will the UK give a refund ? I mean of course minus the usual 10% restocking fee ! wink

amazing the countries (US & UK) most appalled by the use of chemical weapons were at one time suppliers ! How'd that happen?? whistle
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 01:27 PM

Quote:
Will the UK give a refund ? I mean of course minus the usual 10% restocking fee !
Not really, we're a bit hard at the moment... so we might want more than 10 per cent. How'd it happen? Well, our excuse is that certain people making the decisions were mentally ill at the time although it was only proven against one of 'em... you and I have discussed that one before of course... laugh

km
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 02:02 PM

Of course this all would not have happened without pressure from the US. Why would there be any reason to agree to such a thing as handing over chemical weapons if nobody was going to do anything to try and stop it? I say again, I should've have had more faith in Obama's approach, and more faith in Putin and Russia now that I think of it.
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 02:04 PM

"Yeah I mean we need everyone on board the Chemical Weapons Convention if possible... hopefully non-member states or entities still struggling with the moral case for membership such as North Korea and Israel will follow Syria's lead."

Agreed, and these countries aren't that much further from the brink of international war than Syria. NK was just doing some more serious sabre rattling that usual just a few months ago.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 02:40 PM

Everything Putin stated about the consequences of military conflict was already included in Obamas last few speeches. That's why Obama's very first speech on Syria emphasized that diplomacy and disarming was the goal. But when Putin says it today in the NYT, Putin is now the Obama-haters hero and Obama is the ignorant and naive oppressive tyrant …. even when Putin gives us his best macho bare-chested walrus-hugging KGB propogandist attitude with these last words in his op ed, Convservatives are praising the guy that's telling us our highly-valued patriotic & GOP/Reganesque motto of American Exceptionalism sucks.

Yes, now that Obama embraces & emphasizes American Exceptionism …. now the conservatives are against it because Putin's overblown ego rubbed it in Obama's face. Good luck with that.

Quote:
My working and personal relationship with President Obama is marked by growing trust. I appreciate this. I carefully studied his address to the nation on Tuesday. And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.


Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 02:45 PM

Hey, I am not sure if having your average member of the Ignoramanati praising Putin is such a bad thing.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 02:49 PM

When it's posted here in the Soapbox, well, it's simple to unload my opinion about it.

When it's brought up in Congress, like Rand Paul praising Putin and urging our alliance with Assad, I can only yell at the TV. laugh
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 03:03 PM

I think Putin is right about American exceptionalism.

I'm now ducking down the alleyway as y'all throw stuff at me.
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 03:03 PM

Yah, you got me there. I was talking about the common man more. Frustrating.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 03:12 PM

Things that make my head explode with the Putin worship.


March 2011, Syrians protesting Putin's grip on Assad. Putin arms Assad to wipe these people off the face of the earth. Putin today lectures Americans about democracy in the NYT.

Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By: lanovami
Of course this all would not have happened without pressure from the US. Why would there be any reason to agree to such a thing as handing over chemical weapons if nobody was going to do anything to try and stop it? I say again, I should've have had more faith in Obama's approach, and more faith in Putin and Russia now that I think of it.


Thank you... my sentiments too.
All the GOP Obama haters will make of it what they will... there is no way to prove or disprove that this was Obamas intent from the start.
If he had merely asked like Putin did... it would have been a no go.
If Putin had asked w/o prior USA threats .. no go.
USA makes threat... and Syria buckles and says it because Putin asked so nicely with a cherry on top. My ass.
So, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. More than I can say for other narrow-minded peeps....
Posted by: garyW

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 03:18 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
I think Putin is right about American exceptionalism.

I'm now ducking down the alleyway as y'all throw stuff at me.


I'm with you, kinda. I don't use or agree with the GOP catch phrase as a gauge of patriotism. But the President's actions to get Russia and Syria and the US to talk diplomacy, the rightwing has embraced Putin, disparaged and insulted the military, and now pissed on their holy Reagan slogan. I thought trashing the global economy would be their limit to show their Obama hatred, but I was wrong.



Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 03:36 PM

No danger of my embracing Putin. He might put me in jail for homoerotic behavior. Or something.
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 03:57 PM

Yeah, the exceptionalism is the point that really rang with me, as I said in my thread before I realized John had already posted Putin's letter here.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/12/13 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
Will the UK give a refund ? I mean of course minus the usual 10% restocking fee !
Not really, we're a bit hard at the moment... so we might want more than 10 per cent. How'd it happen? Well, our excuse is that certain people making the decisions were mentally ill at the time although it was only proven against one of 'em... you and I have discussed that one before of course... laugh
km

You mean like W and Reagan & Bush Sr ??? blush

HEY KM, they resemble that remark !!
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/13/13 08:00 AM

Reagan's in the clear apparently according to Dr Owen <---... but not W... grin

kn
Posted by: DLC

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/13/13 09:36 AM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Reagan's in the clear apparently according to Dr Owen <---... but not W... grin

kn

Well I dunno, he gave Saddam the ability to make chemical weapons... I can't remember the specifics exactly, but either Saddam got chemicals from UK and the plant design and parts from US or visa versa... regardless Reagan helped arm Saddam with WMDs. AND when he gassed the Kurds in 1983 and then the Iranians in 1988 neither he nor VP GHW Bush said squat !! I didn't hear anything from Thatcher either ! shocked

So I don't see a lot of difference.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/13/13 12:39 PM

Quote:
I dunno...
Well, it's getting a bit vague in my memory now but if you can recall our discussion a few years ago over Iraq it went along the lines of my blaming Blair and you pointing out that a mad person can't be held responsible for his actions. grin It was subsequently revealed by Dr Owen who was a a former foreign secretary within Blair's inner circle but who happened also to be a psychiatrist that during a series of foreign policy meetings he had conducted a psychoanalysis of Blair and concluded that he was in fact mad. So he wrote a book about that with the message that mad persons rising to positions of power or influence pose a serious threat to the survival of democracy as a political system and named certain other politicians who exhibited the same symptoms of hubris syndrome that he had seen in Blair. crazy

km
Posted by: DLC

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/14/13 07:57 AM

News coming in that Russia and US have reached a deal !!

Hope it lasts and is completely fulfilled !!

NOW what will Fsck News say ?? blush

Kinda hard to slam him for making deals with Russia since they've been praising Putin ALL week !! crazy
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/14/13 08:24 AM

Yeah I should be above gloating. For one, gloating is petty. For two, it may all fall apart in the end. Praying it doesn't.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/14/13 08:40 AM

Thank Gawd that's out of the way. Now we can get back to repealing the AFA and proving that Obama was born on Jupiter. crazy
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/14/13 04:39 PM

Nah, McCain and Graham are already calling the agreement meaningless. Hopefully that will lead to people realizing the GOP really isn't representing their interests. WHFO.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/15/13 12:34 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Thank Gawd that's out of the way. Now we can get back to repealing the AFA and proving that Obama was born on Jupiter. crazy


I thought he was born on Mars and Michelle was born on Venus laugh

Dave
Posted by: DLC

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/15/13 10:45 AM

Exactly... McCain is itching for a new war now we're out of Iraq (mostly). He's a dangerous war maniac. Graham is just being Graham... or maybe he has the McCain virus. WHY the people of AZ keep re-electing McCain is beyond me... so he's a war vet ( very senile one, but a vet)... you don't have any other better ones in your whole dammed state ?? He's the BEST you got ?? PATH- ETIC !! crazy
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Chemical weapons to International Group - 09/17/13 03:34 PM

You know when Obama and McCain were the last two standing in 2008 I believed I could live McCain as pres because he seemed like a calm centrist (not allowing people to disparage Obama etc) but he his gotten scarier and more erratic or at least shown his true colors. Even strong conservatives I know have written him off.