Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW

Posted by: John Rougeux

Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/16/13 06:34 AM

I don't know if you all talked about this or not, but saw this on FB and thought I would share. Definitely not what you think.

Warning: Language (racial)


Posted by: Celandine

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/16/13 02:11 PM


Posted by: lanovami

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 01:21 PM

Black on black he says - he is an example of it - it is only politically correct to use racial epithets and stereotypes if you are a member of that group. Why?
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 03:41 PM

Keep in mind that Martin Luther King, Jr was a preacher first.

Other than that, this case was not about race (color). It was about Florida's stand your ground law which should not have been applied to this case since Mr. Zimmerman left his vehicle against instructions and confronted Mr. Martin. Only Mr. Zimmerman knows what he did to create a situation that caused Mr. Martin to fight with him. Did he try to make a citizen's arrest? No one knows except Mr. Zimmerman and he certainly won't tell. When Mr. Zimmerman chose to leave his vehicle and confront Mr. Martin, the stand your ground law should have been declared null and void in this case. In fact, it should have been Mr. Martin's defense.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 04:41 PM

The defense didn't use the "stand your ground" law in their defense.
They said he used self defense.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 05:31 PM

That is the core of the stand your ground law. The prosecution did not challenge the law which they should have, but since it is the State's law, it wouldn't be prudent for the state's prosecution to challenge it, right?
Posted by: garyW

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 05:58 PM



link ...analysis of 4,650 FBI records of homicides in which a person killed a stranger with a handgun. They conclude that stand your ground “tilts the odds in favor of the shooter.” In SYG states, 13.6% of homicides were ruled justifiable; in non-SYG states, only 7.2% were deemed such. This is strong evidence that rulings of justifiable homicide are more likely under stand your ground.
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
That is the core of the stand your ground law. The prosecution did not challenge the law which they should have, but since it is the State's law, it wouldn't be prudent for the state's prosecution to challenge it, right?


My understanding is the prosecution doesn't have a right to challenge SYG, unless the defense relies upon it. Before the main hearing GZ had the option to put up the SYG defense, which the judge would hear arguments and make a ruling. If SYG was supported, that would be the end of it, and if it was declined then an ordinary trial would then ensue. GZ elected not to plead SYG, so we jumped right into the ordinary trial - thus SYG was not a factor for the defense and the prosecution had nothing to attack.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 06:32 PM

The jury instructions contained the law’s key provision and instructed jurors that self-defense meant Zimmerman was entitled to “stand his ground” with “no duty to retreat.”

ANDERSON COOPER: Because of the two options you had, second degree murder or manslaughter, you felt neither applied?

JUROR B37: Right. Because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right.
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 07:39 PM

united we stand..
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 08:09 PM

Originally Posted By: AusMac
united we stand..


What's your point?
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 08:20 PM

The point wasn't made by me nor any where near related to this point in time.. it is a photographic statement made by a photographer long forgotten similarly related regarding the topics related around this particular incident.. live by the gun.. rule by it.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 08:44 PM

I really don't see how that picture says that, and you chose someone holding an American flag to make your statement. Just a coincidence?
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 10:36 PM

AusMac makes statements but does not answer questions.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 11:17 PM

Perhaps a better choice:

Posted by: lanovami

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/17/13 11:39 PM

I also finally looked up NSFW - never was sure what it meant. Now I know.
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 02:31 AM

But I thought that GZ was "returning to his car", I would consider this as an act of retreating, which if true would be why the defense didn't use SYG as a defense. It would seem that there is not much sense for the judge or jury to place such weight on this aspect of the law. If you're retreating from a place and you're attacked, then you have the right to defend yourself in all 50 states - since you have satisfied the duty to retreat, though in the 37(?) states that do not support SYG you would have to prove that retreat aspect as a part of your Self Defense claim.
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 03:45 AM

Live by the gun and die by the gun. Great example!
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 05:08 AM

Originally Posted By: Jim_
Originally Posted By: AusMac
united we stand..


What's your point?

The image was taken from a Photo Essay
of rather odd photos posted in BuzzFeed,
"50 Unexplained B&W Photos"

As odd as the photo is
it seems pretty straight forward to me.
When seen in the context of this thread:
(...and several other recent topics...)

When a country takes pride in and glorifies
the right to own and bear arms, where's the
surprise when some people misuse that right?
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 05:17 AM


That Sed...
THIS One Still Needs Some 'Splainin'!
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 05:34 AM

by the same token

TM chose to retreat, but GZ chose to continue
in pursuit, until he lost sight of TM, and
claims to have started back to his vehicle.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 07:47 AM

Problem is that's GZ story, BUT no one is around to dispute it. crazy

He could say he tried to read TM a bedtime story, and WHO could say it didn't happen ? NO one !

It's a whole different ball game when you are the ONLY surviving witness. BTW his stories have many inconsistencies... one would think if he were telling the 100% truth - there'd be only 1.... and it wouldn't change.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 10:21 AM

Spot on Dave.
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 03:47 PM

The problem with this whole affair is that the evidence as presented has nobody committing a crime - but we have a dead body. Both participants seem to have made dumb decisions, both participants could claim fear of the other and thus lay claim to self-defense.
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 04:21 PM

It actually was a coincidence. The page of photos was linked to me at the same time as I was reading this thread. It isn't my fault that a small girl was given both a flag and a gun. It would never be done in my country.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 05:26 PM

Because guns are outlawed in your country... so it's not like a choice.

(I'm assuming you're from Australia by your name... although it could be Austria.)
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 06:22 PM

It is not that guns are outlawed in my country. Yes it is Australia. It is because there are much tighter restrictions and an entirely different community perception about carrying guns. In our country, unless Zimmerman was a security person or police, carrying the gun itself is akin to pre-planned use of it. Which would mean that actually using it, would leave him no legal grounds to stand on at all. Not even self defense.

It is against the law here to discharge a firearm within a mile of any residence. It is against the law to carry a firearm unless properly secured and with magazine removed and with appropriate permit.

Semi-automatic weapons and handguns among many things from hand grenades to plastic replica weapons, are all banned and carry heavy penalties. An air-rifle without a special permit can land you in jail or a $5,000 fine or both.

The point is that though it isn't impossible to be harmed by a firearm here, there is no way any person using one could get off on any self-defense claim.

This may be of interest. In regard to the fact that almost all ammunition sold in Australia is manufactured in the USA. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-08/gu...buy-big/4742048
Posted by: DLC

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 08:32 PM

Well according to the NRA you guys are a bunch of wussies with your gun laws (course I never agreed with the NRA), but that said I sure wouldn't go into an Aussie bar and say that... one might get handed their head!! wink
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/18/13 08:38 PM

smile
Yes. It is perhaps not so well known that the majority of domestic manslaughter/murders are done with a brick, a knife or indeed bare hands.

In the course of my work, I carry several knives all of which are equivalent to cutthroat razors. At a random roadside breath test(RBT), the policeman asked to see my license, in this country that means it must be removed from the wallet before handing to the cop. This is to ensure that cop isn't tempted by loose bank notes that may be visible. In my case the license card was stuck to the plastic viewing window. So I whipped out my budding knife and cut it out to hand to him. He instantly went on serious duty mode.. "what do you use that knife for, sir". To cut a long story short, I am allowed to carry work knives to work but not on the way home from work. In Australia, a pocket knife will cost you a carrying concealed weapon charge. This also goes for knives in belt pouches, though they may be fastened and visible. the inference is; you are not at work when grabbing something from the supermarket on the way home from work and thus the weapon in the pouch is deemed to not being carried for fit purpose.

Similarly, if you happen to toss said knives into the console tray, to get them out of your pockets and you are pulled over for any roadside check such as the RBT or a speeding infringement, you are again faced with an interrogation as to what knives are doing laying within easy reach and if you cannot soberly explain the reasonings and comply with instruction, then again you are off to the slammer.

Which basically brings us back to the fact that Neighbourhood Watch, does not give one the right to pack it or indeed use.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/19/13 05:43 AM

Yah.. that was my point. It's verrry hard to get a gun in Oz unless you can prove you have a need for it. You don't just go around collecting them.. much stronger restrictions since you guys passed laws after some mass shootings.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/19/13 08:14 AM

Many of us in USA who want limited gun access cite Australian laws to those NRA members and gun addicts who are always screaming 2nd Amendment rights. They always come back with it hasn't stopped murders nor mass murders in Australia. I think they're balmy, but what's the real scoop ? I haven't heard of any Columbines, Virginia Techs, grade school, or theater killings in your country. crazy
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/19/13 08:22 AM

It doesn't stop criminals having guns or indeed using them. However it does stop the Zimmermans from having a gun.
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/19/13 08:43 AM

Originally Posted By: DLC
Many of us in USA who want limited gun access cite Australian laws to those NRA members and gun addicts who are always screaming 2nd Amendment rights. They always come back with it hasn't stopped murders nor mass murders in Australia. I think they're balmy, but what's the real scoop ? I haven't heard of any Columbines, Virginia Techs, grade school, or theater killings in your country. crazy



The copycat type mass shootings have stopped since the crackdown on semi-auto rifles. That worked.. so far. There's always someone trying to outwit the police. The gangs, ie: bikies and street gangs, the drug runners etc., They get guns and do drive by shootings. So that stuff still happens. Mostly the guns are stolen or black marketed locally. ie; the guns that weren't handed in during amnesties. Though customs caught one of my bosses from sending two replica pistols home to himself from America, loads of handguns come in with people buying them off the internet.

Taking the guns away doesn't stop bad people from being bad people. However in the main, they only shoot at each other if they can get guns and ammunition. It isn't like the average person needs to carry a gun to protect themselves. In fact most of us don't see any gun violence. It is limited to gang warfare in certain areas and probably always will be while there is money to be made out of various criminal activities that organised gangs can get up to.

I don't carry a gun nor see the need to get a permit. Though any landholder, ie: farmers are allowed to have guns for shooting vermin and they are able to allow shooters onto their properties and thus can be a guarantee to getting a shooters permit. If this was cracked down on, then the avenues for obtaining guns and ammunition would be vastly decreased. Because who is to say that every permit issued to shoot vermin is authentic? Even if it was authentic there is still room to abuse the system.
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/19/13 10:56 AM

.

Thanks, AusMac, for your contributions to this subject, and indeed to the whole forum. Thanks for being here. smile

Kate/Ethel/Starmillway


.
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/19/13 11:22 AM

No worries Kate. You know I'm a peaceable person. You may not also know that I do have certificates of marksmanship from both the police and the army.

The problem is that I really don't find anything I want to shoot at.
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/19/13 11:37 AM

The most memorable bank robbery in my recent memory is of where a guy walked into a bank and demanded money and as far as I can tell there was no obvious weapons threat but bank tellers are basically told not to put any lives at risk.. it is all on camera.. He escaped on a bicycle and even dropped some of the money.. but I can't yet recall reading of him being apprehended. Though that may be because I live in a land where news isn't as sensationalised as is probably more what you are used to. If something else didn't have me dredging news pages, I could have missed it for lack of interest in local gossip.

Posted by: MrB

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/20/13 08:46 AM

Originally Posted By: DLC
?........ (course I never agreed with the NRA), ......


Many folks don't keep up with what the NRA supports. I don't either. So you might not remember that they were mighty opposed to the Patriot Act. That I did know.

Dave
Posted by: MrB

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/20/13 08:54 AM

king jr is an exception to many. Not so sure about Sharpton but Jessie Jackson was not ordained untel recent years. I'm not sure he ever had a regular church he preached at.

But that said. I've noticed that many preachers, get used to having folks provide for them to the point that they truly believe that they are owed just for their existence. I should add that the ones I've known well, personally have all been white men and women.

Dave
Posted by: steveg

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/20/13 08:57 AM

Because the Patriot Act could be seen as a prelude to a national gun registry. Oh, the horror of it all. eek
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/21/13 04:49 AM

If guns are outlawed in your country how do you really protect yourself if you are threatened by someone?
Posted by: AusMac

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/21/13 05:54 AM

Question: How do you really protect yourself if you are threatened by someone?

Answer: Because we don't feel threatened, it isn't a requirement.
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/21/13 06:16 AM

Posted by: MrB

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/21/13 09:05 AM

Actually that's not the horror of the Patriot Act.

Dave
Posted by: MrB

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/21/13 09:09 AM

Appears the president has chimed in again on the case. There will be a lot of folks think that is a positive action.

Dave
Posted by: steveg

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/21/13 09:57 AM

Within the context of your previous post, it is. Any law that so much as suggests the possibility of gun control is a horror to the NRA. In their pathetic Charles Bronson/Death Wish wannabe world, if phone calls, emails, travel plans, ROC's, etc. are fair game, so are gun purchases.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/21/13 01:40 PM

Appears the president has commented again on the case. There will be a lot of folks think that is a negative action.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Interesting perspective on the TM case NSFW - 07/21/13 10:19 PM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Within the context of your previous post, it is. Any law that so much as suggests the possibility of gun control is a horror to the NRA. In their pathetic Charles Bronson/Death Wish wannabe world, if phone calls, emails, travel plans, ROC's, etc. are fair game, so are gun purchases.


When a dealer calls in to see if a potential gun buyer passes scrutiny I suppose the Feds could tap that. They probably do.

Dave