Pre verdict Zimmerman case

Posted by: MrB

Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/11/13 09:59 PM

So weigh in on the verdict of the Zimmerman case.

Me?

I say it will be Guilty of Man Slaughter

Dave
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/11/13 11:29 PM


Murder.

He was staking that kid
he got his arse "grounded & pounded"

Since when is it not fair to fight back
when you find yourself in a perceived-threatening
situation (being followed by some ((nut?)) in a
vehicle for who knows what purpose --- apparently
to the kids mind --- just for walking while black
anywhere south of the Mason/Dixon Line)

He tried to evade the "stalker" the guy left his
vehicle to pursue him on foot... no doubt the
guy was armed... but again... to what purpose...?

I have no doubt that the kid did what he could
under the circumstances... he got the jump on him.


Not saying he should get the death sentence...
...just saying HE'S GUILTY AS A FUK! mad
otherwise it's a travesty of justice when an armed
man can take it upon himself to initiate an
incident by setting himself up as a judge, jury,
and potentially, executioner without consequence.

"GUN-BRAVE" mad

sorry... I get infuriated with chicken-crap guyse
sticking a gun down their pants ...going off to
make themselves feel like a man.

sorry... you asked for my opinion YOU GOT IT!
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/11/13 11:54 PM

So you think the jury will come with guilty of second degree murder.

Okay.

I am asking what folks will think the jury will come with

Dave
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 02:41 AM

I'd be surprised if he got off completely. If he did, it could set a precedent for the stand your guard defense - it already is I've heard.
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 02:52 AM

Originally Posted By: lanovami
I'd be surprised if he got off completely. If he did, it could set a precedent for the stand your guard defense - it already is I've heard.


But he's using "self defense" not stand your ground as his justification. The media got so hung up on stand your ground.

As for the result:
- 2nd Degree Murder - not guilty
- mans laughter - hung
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 03:49 AM

I say innocent period. Martin I think was so full of pot he just provoked Zimmerman to the final straw to shoot him.Martin I think did knock Zimmerman head to the ground and than it got really bad from there where Zimmerman held his ground by shooting Martin to protect himself.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 05:30 AM

Branching off from my own op a bit: I thought the prosecution approached their case from the defensive. Trying to find doubt in the defense's case. I thought that was odd. As several analysts were stating, the prosecution didnt push what they wanted the jury to believe.

To them it was " the defense would have you believe......."

I thought it was the defense that was suppose to do that on the prosecutions case.

So for that reason and others, I don't think the jury will come with Guilty of sec deg murder. But , they just might think that they have to get him for something to appease the masses so will come with manslaughter.

Dave
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 05:45 AM


Yup...yup & yup...

The pros attorney will get the blame for the
A-Hole getting off with a slap on the wrist.

what I said above was my opinion on the incident
my opinion on the verdict is a whole 'nother matter.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 07:29 AM

I think he's guilty and should get convicted …. but the prosecution has left too much uncertainty and he may walk….

but now I find out (via Drudge headline yesterday) that Obama has put pressure on the Judge so he's sure to get convicted. <bleh!>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 07:40 AM

I think it's gonna be manslaughter. Murder 2 was hard enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, and I think the prosecution missed opportunities (although they still have the rebuttal coming up). But I don't think the jury can or will ignore that Zimmerman's assumptions — and actions upon them — were catalytic. I just don't see how they let him walk.

That, and Drudge's inside info that Obama is up the judge's ass and has had the NSA implant subliminal commands in the juror's heads. crazy
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 09:33 AM

I think he'll walk on the Murder 2 charge. The worst Zimmerman gets is Manslaughter if he doesn't walk completely.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 09:35 AM

Yep I agree - I think he's guilty of 2nd Degree M, but they won't convict him of that and settle for manslaughter. I'd be shocked (and grossly disappointed) if he got completely off. Furthermore the Stand you ground could have easily worked for Martin as Zimmerman, after all WHO had the gun ? Travon had what? candy and a drink ! WOOOO , sooo threatening !! wink
Posted by: garyW

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By: DLC
Travon had what?


From the evidence, God's Plan.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 12:44 PM

I know the stand your ground idiocy wasn't part of the defense in the trial--but I have a question that has puzzled me all along. Wouldn't one say that Trayvon himself had the right to stand his ground, so that if he felt threatened by the creepy guy following him, he had every right to defend himself as violently as he thought necessary? If he had had a gun, wouldn't the stand your ground law have allowed him to blow Zimmerman away because Zimmerman was threatening him?
Posted by: DLC

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 01:33 PM

I think that's the biggest flaw with the "Stand your Ground" law when it applies anywhere- anyplace ... if it were limited to your home, there'd be no question who had the right !! In this case, EITHER could use it !! DUH !!! Stupid legislators !! crazy
Posted by: garyW

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 01:40 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
I know the stand your ground idiocy wasn't part of the defense in the trial--but I have a question that has puzzled me all along. Wouldn't one say that Trayvon himself had the right to stand his ground, so that if he felt threatened by the creepy guy following him, he had every right to defend himself as violently as he thought necessary? If he had had a gun, wouldn't the stand your ground law have allowed him to blow Zimmerman away because Zimmerman was threatening him?


Why? Because he's a young black male.

The Defense's final statement told us that regardless of GZ's concealed gun, Trayvon brandished a bigger, a deadlier weapon. The sidewalk. <dramatic chunk of concrete in tow>.

This was O'Mara's most dickish move ever.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 01:59 PM

Yes gary, but here's the real question !!

Did he have a legal permit to carry concealed concrete !! whistle
Betcha didn't think of that !! laugh
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 02:41 PM

Not guilty.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 02:54 PM

I haven't followed the court shenanigans at all, but from what I read in the newspaper, I have to agree with Leslie. Enough shadows of doubts to make it not guilty.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 03:34 PM

Originally Posted By: DLC
Yes gary, but here's the real question !!

Did he have a legal permit to carry concealed concrete !! whistle
Betcha didn't think of that !! laugh




Ah, but Trayvon didn't have to have a permit for the concrete as he baited Jorge into an area where he had his concrete weapon stashed. shocked

Dave
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 05:48 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
I haven't followed the court shenanigans at all, but from what I read in the newspaper, I have to agree with Leslie. Enough shadows of doubts to make it not guilty.


You know "me" ...or at least should by now...

I haven't stayed riveted to the TV either...
...but perhaps for a typically "me" reason;

I recognized it as yet another "Terri Schiavo"
issue (a topic specifically selected to rivet the
attention of the public on something to be used
as a smokescreen for covering something else.).

--

In this case, The Government Surveillance Program

~ PROOF ~




Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 05:52 PM

Yikes!
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 05:55 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
Yikes!


yeah...

pretty scary, huh? eek
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: garyW
I think he's guilty and should get convicted …. but the prosecution has left too much uncertainty and he may walk….

but now I find out (via Drudge headline yesterday) that Obama has put pressure on the Judge so he's sure to get convicted. <bleh!>



He "should" get convicted. I think the jury will let him off. Florida laws are responsible, not to mention it is a red state. Just because the jurors are white doesn't mean a steenin' thing. The whole state [other than Forum Floridians] are a bunch of wackos! My sis is not, but her husband is! Drives me up a tree.

Obviously, I "may be exagerating". Zimmerman will get off scott free.

Liar, liar, pants on fire! Obama would not do that to de judge! smile

..
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 06:42 PM

I predict he skates...
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 06:48 PM

.

If, indeed, he "skates" do you think it will cause chaos around the United States larger cities?


..
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 08:29 PM

Yes.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 08:30 PM

I would like nothing better than to be wrong on both counts.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 08:58 PM

Any Zimmerman story linked to Drudge … Yahoo News, ABC, AP, etc., …. has comments sections filled with rage from (obviously) white rightwingers stocking up ammo and making comments to take on the black looters and rioters vigalante style. They're aching for a race war to go kill black people. If rioting does occur, and cities burn and looting happens, I feel there's enough racist wackos who are feeling power-in-numbers to counter them with deadly violence. People gotta stay cool, the gun fanatics have changed everything.





Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/12/13 11:03 PM

Originally Posted By: garyW
Any Zimmerman story linked to Drudge … Yahoo News, ABC, AP, etc., …. has comments sections filled with rage from (obviously) white rightwingers stocking up ammo and making comments to take on the black looters and rioters vigalante style. They're aching for a race war to go kill black people. If rioting does occur, and cities burn and looting happens, I feel there's enough racist wackos who are feeling power-in-numbers to counter them with deadly violence. People gotta stay cool, the gun fanatics have changed everything.


Went over to Drudge and read a fist-full of them. Most are from a CBS station in Florida. Biased? Na, couldn't be.

Keep our fingers crossed for no riots. One article mentioned peace gathering spots but didn't say where.

Kumbya time fer sure. I'm the alto. Need voices. wink

.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 08:28 AM

If there's an aquittal I don't think there will be any rioting, despite the rightwing's prompting and hope to make it happen.

Politically, it's supercharging those with Obama Derangement Syndrome
yikes!
double yikes!
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 08:44 AM

Connective tissue: The story began when George Zimmerman profiled a black youth wearing a hoodie ---> The right wing media presumes to write the end of the story by profiling the black community at al.

Sick, cynical bastards.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 09:13 AM

Quote:
Sick, cynical bastards.

And that's putting it mildly.
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: garyW
If there's an aquittal I don't think there will be any rioting, despite the rightwing's prompting and hope to make it happen.

Politically, it's supercharging those with Obama Derangement Syndrome
yikes!
double yikes!


sick
That's SICK Even by My Standards!
Posted by: garyW

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 10:59 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
---> The right wing media presumes to write the end of the story by profiling the black community at al.


And that includes the President. A year ago he was asked by a reporter to comment on the death of Trayvon Martin. He answered something to the effect of "if I had a son he probably would have looked just like him" ….. and that was it. One emotional, introspective comment. But the wingnut media spins it as race-baiting and they're off and running for their guns.


Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 11:05 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Connective tissue: The story began when George Zimmerman profiled a black youth wearing a hoodie ---> The right wing media presumes to write the end of the story by profiling the black community at al.

Sick, cynical bastards.


Actually, thse who claim that Zimmerman racially profiled Martin are, themselves, profiling . Thinking that since he is "white" and Martin is "black" that Zimmerman considers him to be a bad guy. But that is okay. I say that it's natural

Dave
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 11:09 AM

Originally Posted By: garyW
Originally Posted By: steveg
---> The right wing media presumes to write the end of the story by profiling the black community at al.


And that includes the President. A year ago he was asked by a reporter to comment on the death of Trayvon Martin. He answered something to the effect of "if I had a son he probably would have looked just like him" ….. and that was it. One emotional, introspective comment. But the wingnut media spins it as race-baiting and they're off and running for their guns.




When Obama said this last year, I never thought it was a big deal. I never took it as getting race into it, because, what he said was true. If Obama had a son he would look something like Martin although their facial shapes are remarkably different.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 11:15 AM

On the first "yikes", the last paragraph is wrong. If Martin had shot Zimmerman, a Hispanic, there would be no media storm at all. This is not , just my opinion, but many other more knowledgable folks also .

Dave
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 11:19 AM

Does anyone take Limbaugh seriously?

Dave
Posted by: garyW

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 11:35 AM

Originally Posted By: MrB
Does anyone take Limbaugh seriously?

Dave


Most every registered conservative republican. The GOP establishment. Every Teaparty Congressional member, and certainly every TeaParty candidate for office. Every second-tier right wing talk show host who echo his every word. And of course, Clear Channel.

Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 11:35 AM

Originally Posted By: MrB
On the first "yikes", the last paragraph is wrong. If Martin had shot Zimmerman, a Hispanic, there would be no media storm at all.

Actually, that last paragraph agrees with you in a way: if the roles had been reversed, it would have been less a media storm and simply the more routine process of sending another black guy to jail if not the chair ...

Although I tend to believe if the roles were reversed and Martin was trying to use the Stand Your Ground defense, there probably would be a media storm of some sort in that the framers of that law deep down probably didn't intend that it apply to people like Martin ...

Regardless, the radical right wing surely wouldn't be trying to pin his possible conviction on Obama, of all people ;-)
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 06:27 PM

If Martin had done the shooting I don't think Obama would have said his son would look like him. I hope not

Dave
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 06:29 PM

Also, not every white person is racist. Not every conservative is racists. Not every liberal is not racist. Not every democrat is not racist.

Dave
Posted by: DLC

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 08:27 PM

Problem is he WAS profiling and assuming Travon was guilty of something-and we KNOW by his comments (he had no kind words or even questions about Martin being there - already assumed his guilt). Had his comments not been so derogatory, we might have a different impression.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.. it's not a lovable kitten. wink
Hope he gets the sheet sued out of him !
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 08:58 PM

Quote:
Also, not every white person is racist. Not every conservative is racists. Not every liberal is not racist. Not every democrat is not racist.


We are all quite aware of those facts.
However, there are obviously strong tendencies.
One chooses to which tendency they adhere.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 09:01 PM

What you say about all of one party or the other is obviously true, Dave. But in general and on the whole the reps present a pretty systematic case for preserving supremacy for the affluent and the white. Sorry for the tautology. I don't know what you folks in KS are experiencing, but let me recount for you what has happened here in PA since the reps came to control all branches of government. First, since the reps have held the state legislature for many years, they ensured that their domination of the state house, and of the state's congressional delegation, would continue. The gerrymander here is a beauty to behold. My town is a democratic bastion in a sea of republican county voters. But the legislature has divided the city very carefully into four or five different districts so that we never, but never have a chance to elect a democrat.

In the world of taxation, the reps have arranged the system in the state so that we have a flat income tax. The guy who earns a million pays the same percentage as the guy who earns a couple of thousand. Even more insidiously, the state does not tax unearned income, so that the guy who makes a million in capital gains but has no earned income pays nothing at all. Still more insidiously, the state does tax interest income, so the poor bastard who has some money in a CD does pay tax on whatever measly return he gets on his money. But then the big boys who run the banks on behalf of the Republicans have made it irrelevant to tax interest because although they charge me 15% on my credit cards, they pay only a tenth of a percent on what I have in the bank.

In education the fundamentally racist--I don't know what else to call it--agenda is crystal clear. Our wonderful governor has cut state money to the public schools by something like 20%. At the same time, he has vouchered education in the state. The vouchers do not cover the full price of private or parochial schooling, but they do subsidize those parents who have enough money to make up the difference and so send their kids to a non-public school. The state also requires local school districts to pick up the tab for any student who enrolls in a cyber school. There again, only those kids who have parents with enough economic and cultural captain can avail themselves of the option. Meanwhile the urban schools are down the toilet. My town is raising the # of kids in elementary classrooms to 37 per room. They have cut school nurses, so that there is only one nurse per 4 schools. Next year they plan to cut all assistant principals in elementary schools. There is one counselor assigned for every 1000 kids, however that works out in numbers of schools. All this, keep in mind, in a social environment that is as challenged as they come. Last year my wife had a third of her class with special needs of one kind or another, most of them with behavioral problems, from autism to ADHD to severe neurological problems requiring medication, which often the parents could not get for their kids.

Meanwhile, the republican suburbs tax their way to a brighter future, so that the drop in state funding is a problem, but certainly not devastating. One of those districts provides a MBP for every kid in the district. Another one provides two aides per classroom. Those kids don't need the private or parochial school subsidies, although some avail themselves of a religious education at tax payer expense, something I think is plainly unconstitutional. So who does make use of the private school subsidies? The white parents in the city. The whole scheme is geared to resegregating the school system by making relatively more affluent white parents able to afford to send their kids to private schools, leaving the public schools to the rest of us blacks and Hispanics.

And all of that is part and parcel of the republican agenda. Gerrymander your way to a permanent legislative majority. Make wages expensive and capital free. Privatize whatever you can and then wring your hands when the result is resegregation. I hate to say it, but if the whole of the system that the republicans propose is not racist, classist, exclusionary, and fundamenally unfair, then lets bring back Jim Crow, cause at least those practices were not hypocritical.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 09:16 PM

Do not normally read a post this long but I was intrigued.
Even though it is not new to me, I am always appalled at the information regarding schools and taxes.

But let's all pay $265 or more per person for a basketball, baseball or hockey ticket so some twenty something kid can make 5 million dollars a year. More than a teacher will make in their lifetime.

Something is very wrong.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 09:29 PM

And back to the Zimmerman Case.
Was correct on both counts and wanted to be wrong.
Feeling pissed off.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 11:25 PM

I think the verdict was correct for the evidence provided by the prosecution. They couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self defense. That they couldn't prove that Zimmerman didn't feel feel threaten for great bodily harm.

Also, the prosecutors didnt provide a plausible narrative as to how this incident occured.

That's my thoughts.

Dave
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/13/13 11:31 PM

In answer to how I feel about how things are handled in Kansas. I give two names:

Governor Sam Browmback
Sec State Kris Korbach

Tho they don't believe abortion I wish their parents had.

Dave
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/14/13 03:15 AM

Which has what to do with the price of eggs?
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/14/13 03:18 AM

Yeah. Sure... crazy
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/14/13 04:50 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Yeah. Sure... crazy


Don't know to what this is referring

Dave
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/14/13 05:02 AM

Yep.. he skated...
Not enough evidence to convict. What does anyone expect?
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/14/13 06:33 AM

There was a lot of circumstantial evidence that the state failed to exploit. That, and the only other eye-witness is dead.

Did the system work? Yes. But for the prosecution, it was a case of garbage in, garbage out. And Stand Your Ground and vigilanteism just got a big-ass endorsement (and I live in a state that just made SYG even more dangerous).
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/14/13 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By: steveg
There was a lot of circumstantial evidence that the state failed to exploit. That, and the only other eye-witness is dead.

Did the system work? Yes. But for the prosecution, it was a case of garbage in, garbage out. And Stand Your Ground and vigilanteism just got a big-ass endorsement (and I live in a state that just made SYG even more dangerous).


Yes, and there was discovery evidence that was withheld from the Defense until it was too late to confirm so itwas denied.

The Stand Your Ground provision was not accessed just self defense. And there was no vigilanteism just a man concerned with his community .

Dave
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 03:05 AM

Quote:
The Stand Your Ground provision was not accessed just self defense.
So? Because the defense decided not to invoke it, it's moot? I don't think so.

Quote:
And there was no vigilanteism just a man concerned with his community.
Two words, Dave: Bull. Shˇt!
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 07:42 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Quote:
The Stand Your Ground provision was not accessed just self defense.
So? Because the defense decided not to invoke it, it's moot? I don't think so.

Quote:
And there was no vigilanteism just a man concerned with his community.
Two words, Dave: Bull. Shˇt!


For a lot of people reflecting the outcome of the trial, they see a white man with a concealed gun, gracious, shooting a young black child being tried with a jury of white women . Found not guilty. It just can't be.

Dave
Posted by: DLC

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 08:19 AM

Agreed... if there was no vigilanteism then WHY did MrZ follow and confront TM after told NOT TO ?? The guy is a Dirty Harry wanna-be* ! crazy

*complete with the "Do you feel lucky, punk?" attitude !! whistle
BTW I think they should change MrZ's concealed weapons permit to permission to carry a concealed grenade launcher.. wink
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 09:51 AM

Feel free to put up a cogent argument anytime.

*fingers tapping...*
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 10:25 AM

.

During the time of the incident, Zimmerman was heard on tape saying something like, these people get away with it all the time.

Racist Statement? Did he mean by "these" people -- any male wearing a hoodie? Or did he mean "people of color"? Had he already decided that the person was up to illegal activity and that the person was a male black person? So if Z was believing those things,I can see why he didn't want to engage in "nice" "polite" conversation suggested by some --

"do you live around here? are you lost? can I be of help? are you feeling ill, may I direct you or help you get to where you are going?" Z had already decided this guy was potentially dangerous.

I hope the Attorney General [or in a possible Civil Case] has the opportunity to disclose Z's background activities and racial profiling.

This case has set a precedent.

.
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 11:59 AM

Originally Posted By: KateSorensen
.

During the time of the incident, Zimmerman was heard on tape saying something like, these people get away with it all the time.

Racist Statement? Did he mean by "these" people -- any male wearing a hoodie? Or did he mean "people of color"? Had he already decided that the person was up to illegal activity and that the person was a male black person? So if Z was believing those things,I can see why he didn't want to engage in "nice" "polite" conversation suggested by some --

"do you live around here? are you lost? can I be of help? are you feeling ill, may I direct you or help you get to where you are going?" Z had already decided this guy was potentially dangerous.

I hope the Attorney General [or in a possible Civil Case] has the opportunity to disclose Z's background activities and racial profiling.

This case has set a precedent.

.


IMO Even... "I represent the Neighborhood Watch,
Mind if I ask who you are, and where you're going
at this time of night, and on private property?"
...would have avoided the physical confrontation.

I'd also like to know more about How the weapon
that was SUPPOSEDLY down the back of his pants
got into GZ's hands (that were pinned at his sides)
unless the weapon was already in his hand when
Trayvon slammed him to the ground.....? And was
being knocked to the ground itself the cause of
the injuries to the back of his head.. rather than
the "head-slamming-on-concrete" defense he had
prepared(?) for when law enforcement arrived...

he-said/he.....er... couldn't say....? whistle


just too many loose ends smirk
Posted by: garyW

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 12:09 PM

According to court evidence and his own filmed interview, at 7pm the night that the killing occurred, George Zimmerman was not on community watch patrol. He was on his way to shop at Target carrying a concealed gun.



Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 12:27 PM

Originally Posted By: MrB
Originally Posted By: steveg
Quote:
The Stand Your Ground provision was not accessed just self defense.
So? Because the defense decided not to invoke it, it's moot? I don't think so.

Quote:
And there was no vigilanteism just a man concerned with his community.
Two words, Dave: Bull. Shˇt!


For a lot of people reflecting the outcome of the trial, they see a white man with a concealed gun, gracious, shooting a young black child being tried with a jury of white women . Found not guilty. It just can't be.

Dave


Not trying to be confrontational,
I just need my memory "jogged";

Were you the member who stated a while back
that you'd never known any black people until
you'd left home to pursue higher learning?
Posted by: DLC

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 12:47 PM

Originally Posted By: garyW
According to court evidence and his own filmed interview, at 7pm the night that the killing occurred, George Zimmerman was not on community watch patrol. He was on his way to shop at Target carrying a concealed gun.


Ammo run ?? wink

"Dang I'm fresh out of Claymoore M18's and mortar rounds !!" laugh
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 02:39 PM

Key word, Gary: Watch. As in Neighborhood Watch. Not Neighborhood Follow. Not Neighborhood Arrest. Not Neighborhood Shoot. This is what the prosecution failed to keep loud, clear, neon red, and in the Jury's face throughout the trial. They opened with a premise that threw the door to that narrative wide open, and they failed to exploit it.

If George Zimmerman had followed the rules of the organization, this conversation would never have been born.

And now insult to injury, he can reclaim his gun if he wants to. Isn't that just great? smirk
Posted by: DLC

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 02:49 PM

Is Zimmerman Scotch ? I thought he was a member of the Black Watch ! whistle
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 06:37 PM


I wasn't being cheeky...
...I was seriously trying to understand his p.o.v.

A bit like carp, not having a clue about the insult
thrown at the Obamas with the image of WaterMelons
being grown in the WhiteHouse Rose Garden.

It's easy to miss the impact if you've never been
exposed to this long standing cultural stereotyping.

There's always the chance that Mr.B has no idea of
the phenomenon of cops pulling over black teens
and escorting them to an out-of-the-way location
where they proceed to beat the snot out of them...
or "shooting them while escaping"... without
consequences, cops carrying a "throw-down" piece
to the scene in order to prove "self defense"...

Most white people are vaguely aware of it... but
would rather "not know" whereas others know full
well but are afraid to face the retribution of speaking
out about it...esp. since "nothing will come of it".

Professor Yoyo posted a thread called "Being Black"
wherein Levar Burton talks about the recommended
procedure when being pulled over by "The LAW", but
they didn't go into detail about the consequences
of not taking those steps (in order to not wind up
either getting dragged from your vehicle and having
your head cracked open just for asking why you were
being pulled over, or being found in a shallow grave.)

So, yeah.. this case strikes a raw nerve (as it should)
so I was having a problem wrapping my head around
accepting the verdict as "Justice Served" N.Q.A.

Like I said... Now that these incidence** are coming
to light in the glaring spotlight of public attention,
perhaps public opinion will become public outcry,
and this latest run of Jim Crow Justice will finally
be discussed and ultimately resolved.
**
Like the Viral video of the different reactions between
the black vs white teen fiddling with the bike lock,
And the Boston Professor arrested for 'breaking into
his own house... even after showing his identification
and the ratio of black-to-white teens succumbing to
the "Stop & Frisk" Laws... and many other examples...

Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 10:29 PM

On this forum, I've tried my best to convey to you, my friends, how it was to grow up in rural mid America. I do this, as I feel, most of you might not have a feeling for that environment . I certainly understand that there are many experiences that you have had that I have not. All of us have had unique experiences. This is what is so great about this forum. We can all benefit from our expressing these experiences. Diversity makes us better.

Let me give an example to of a person who does not agree with me.

First some background. I definitely have conservative family members. They discovered the Internet and emails about 2003. Everyday I receive viral conservative emails forwarded by several members. Since they are on each others mailing list I most times get the same emails five times. But they all have personal friends on their list also. Some times, I would take these assertions and fact check them. If I found discrepancies I would state them and hit "reply all"

One time got a reply from a woman, yelling at me for giving her the facts. I responded to her that I thought that everyone should hear different sides and the truth. She responded back stating she only wanted to hear the "news" with which she agreed.

Not me.

As for not knowing any black folks until I went to college. Until I was in the eighth grade, I attended a one room country school where one teacher gave instruction . We shared books. In my 7th grade, there were 13 students from grades 1-8. All seven years I only had one grade mate, Max who lived across the section from me . One mile as the crow flies and two miles walking around the gravel and dirt road. I wore over-alls to school until the 6th grade when my folks let me wear jeans . I went to town , pop 6,000, about every two or three weeks when we went shopping around the town square. I went with my folks. Didn't go to the diner or fast food. Just did shopping then back home. Sometimes I was able to stop by the library to check out a few books.

Up until I was 12, I probably knew 15 people within 2 years of my age.

When I was in 8th grade I went to a small rural town school with about 100 students 10-12 grades . There were 21 in my class. All white. Most Christian . I did compete against African -American athletes in high school from other schools.

Did I ever have any negative feelings toward African Americans? Absolutely not. In fact, I have always supported their equality in our society. I have even protested. I've organized protests.

I attempt to treat everyone the same. The color of a persons skin is not an issue for me. I taught 32 years in Dodge City Ks. Dodge City has some african Americans but they close to 45% Hispanic of which, most are Mexican. I thoroughly endorsed mult-culturism when I taught. I lived in an area that was considered a Hispanic neighborhood . Me, I called it home. I was one of the few White non Hispanics living on my block.

Does all this make me special? Hell, No. It's just what I've done. We have all had experiences.

Dave
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 11:04 PM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Feel free to put up a cogent argument anytime.

*fingers tapping...*


I won't respond in kind.

But from one Crazy ass Cracker to another crazy ass Cracker

George, was going to target to shop. Not illegal

He was carrying. Not illegal . Why was he carrying ? Like most, for protection.

He observed an individual walking in the neighborhood . Not illegal to observe.

Trayvon was walking in the neighborhood after getting snacks. Not illegal

George turns is car to follow because the way he was walking looked suspicious (George's words). Not illegal

Trayvon is talking on his phone. Not illegal.

George calls 911 non emergency. Not illegal
Says punks are always getting away. Not illegal

He stops his car. Says he is getting out. Not illegal
911 dispatch says "we don't need you to do that" . But it's not illegal

Trayvon says over phone that some Crazy ass Cracker is following him. Not illegal. He can say any thing he wants and it's not illegal.

Trayvon moves along away from George. Not illegal

A confrontation between them. Not illegal. We don't know what's said.

We don't know what happens until

***Trayvon hits George at least two times. George is on ground with Trayvon on top of him.. ILLEGAL

George shoots Trayvon .......disputed legality

But jury finds that George acted in self defense.

He is not guilty.


***. evidence shows bloody nose and a bruise near eye brow. Also two lacerations on back of head not on same curvature so would indicate two hits on sidewalk or something hard in grass


In my opinion. Both individuals were legal to be a doing what they did until they came to blows. Since evidence shows Trayvon had hit George then George pled self defense in his shooting of Trayvon.

It makes no difference what ethnicity they were or if either was gay, or religious or had gender changes.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/15/13 11:15 PM

On an interview last night, the lead Prosecuter said he believes that George had his gun out the whole time . Man I wish he had presented evidence of this. I believe the jurors might have considered that.

But he didnt. Why not. Why does he believe this then?

Dave
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 01:30 AM

Quote:
***Trayvon hits George at least two times. George is on ground with Trayvon on top of him.. ILLEGAL

Actually, no. Since, as you admit yourself, nobody knows anything prior to this, the circumstances -- even if Trayvon struck George sometime during the encounter, or Trayvon being on top of George (disputed) sometime during the encounter -- are in doubt. Trayvon could have as easily been defending himself as the reverse. Disputed legality.

Quote:
evidence shows Trayvon had hit George then George pled self defense in his shooting of Trayvon.

Evidence shows Trayvon may have struck George. George claims this was the reason he shot Trayvon. There is no evidence as to cause and effect -- George could have easily pulled his gun, thereby giving Trayvon reason to hit George and fight for his life. Or not. That's the problem: there's no way to prove things one way or the other, thus the not guilty verdict.

I submit that under Florida law, it's entirely possible neither of the participants did anything illegal. Which is the tragedy ... and the real threat that these kind of laws, that depend on entirely subjective and emotional perceptions, represent.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 01:36 AM

Originally Posted By: MrB
On an interview last night, the lead Prosecuter said he believes that George had his gun out the whole time . Man I wish he had presented evidence of this. I believe the jurors might have considered that.

But he didnt. Why not. Why does he believe this then?

Dave

Probably because he had enough evidence to convince him, but not enough to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 03:35 AM

Still waiting. And I don't need to know a/b your ass crack. TMI.
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 03:41 AM

We are feeling empathy for T. Martin yet what about OJ Simpson who brutally killed these people and got acquitted on all charges against him. The Whites did not burn up cars and destroy property like we saw now in Oakland and other parts of the states.Zimmerman defended himself which he is the right thing to do if his life was confronted by T. Martin who was no angel by the way and was smoking pot that night also.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 04:22 AM

I guess I should have said that evidence shows that George was hit at least two times as he had a bloody nose and a bruise near his eyebrow. Somebody hit him. Trayvon was the only other person seen there by any witness.

But George did plead self defense because of these blows. And the witnesses only saw one other there.

The jury used this sequence to base their decision . The defense didnt prove it was self defense, that the State didnt prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense. To their point of view.

But we all know this.

He certainly was convicted in the media though.

Dave
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 04:28 AM


What can I say?

Blessed are the pure of heart...
...that's never witnessed prejudice first hand.

But when
Quote:
Trayvon says over phone that some Crazy ass Cracker is following him.

it may not be
Quote:
.. illegal. He can say any thing he wants and it's not illegal.

but to anyone "knowing the code", that means he's
in fear of some unidentified white guy the word,
"cracker" being code for "red-neck" which is
synonymous with the type of person that might
historically lynch or otherwise murder black men,
generally vulnerable boys... which is code for,
HE'S IN FEAR FOR HIS LIFE

which in your break-down, might not be "illegal"
but to many people, it's the justification for him
to take evasive action, run (not illegal) attempt
to hide (duck between buildings) (not illegal)
and when the "Crazy Ass Cracker" persisted in
pursuit, (legal?) take the only other option left
open in regard to "the flight or fight" response.

And here's where we enter Fuzzy Territory...

Justice Served?

Guess we'll never know.
Seems like a lot of details never found their way
into the courtroom, possibly by the machinations of
a slick lawyer who knew how to play the system.


In any case, something has to change the narrative...
...otherwise the wound will continue to fester until
the infection becomes life-threatening...
...and not just to people of color. frown

Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 04:38 AM

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/07...defend-himself/
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 04:38 AM

From watching some talking heads, there are several that want to compare ths to other trials, Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson but also to Emmit Till from the Fifties. Other than those being murder trials each is separate.

The Michael Dunn shooting of Jordan Davis is current but has different circumstances.

Dave
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Pre verdict Zimmerman case - 07/16/13 04:51 AM



Quote:
JUROR: That’s how we read the law. That’s how we got to the point of everybody being not guilty.


Well, that sounds fair...
...Trayvon was innocent too. crazy