Data mining

Posted by: NucleusG4

Data mining - 06/07/13 05:05 AM

So who's lying? The internet companies, I'll bet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 05:53 AM

These days, it's all about data. The current issue of Direct Marketing News is cover-to-cover content about data. Big data. CRM. Lead generation. Data. Data. And more data. No need to be nosey anymore. Just tap into a database. Like anything else, data itself isn't the problem. It's how it's used. Or more specifically, how it's misused.

Welcome to the new nuclear age. We used to fear the proliferation of nukes. Now we fear the proliferation of data. In fact, this and every other thread, post, and profile are part of a database. eek
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 07:49 AM

This is not a whole lot different from what Dubya did. But it was bad back then and is bad right now. Once again "liberal" Obama comes out of the conservative closet. The longer he's in office the more disappointing he becomes.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 08:34 AM

When considering the alternative we could have had foisted upon us, the disappointment is somewhat mitigated. Yeah, this is not a good thing, but — and this can't be denied — we are paying the piper for technological progress.

V is for Vulnerable.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 08:36 AM

Absolutely. I'm not at all sorry that Mitt wasn't elected.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 10:00 AM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
This is not a whole lot different from what Dubya did. But it was bad back then and is bad right now. Once again "liberal" Obama comes out of the conservative closet. The longer he's in office the more disappointing he becomes.


While it has increased under Obama... it started in the Bush administration. This was a hole in the dyke that would only get bigger.... so I don't get the " "liberal" Obama comes out of the conservative closet." comment. ??
And since when was Obama "conservative"? Centrist more likely.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 10:01 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
These days, it's all about data. The current issue of Direct Marketing News is cover-to-cover content about data. Big data. CRM. Lead generation. Data. Data. And more data. No need to be nosey anymore. Just tap into a database. Like anything else, data itself isn't the problem. It's how it's used. Or more specifically, how it's misused.

Welcome to the new nuclear age. We used to fear the proliferation of nukes. Now we fear the proliferation of data. In fact, this and every other thread, post, and profile are part of a database. eek


Yeah.. we get it.
There article was more about how it's being obtained...
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 10:32 AM

That's why I put "liberal" in quotation marks. I coulda said "socialist," I guess. I've never thought that Obama was liberal. And to my mind anyone to the right of my own tastes is a conservative troglodyte. So there.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 10:32 AM

I referred to use and misuse — which includes harvesting as well as analyzing and exploiting. Yeah... I get it, too.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 10:55 AM

I just wonder where Admiral John Poindexter is these days (and what he's doing). Total Information Awareness anyone?
Posted by: MrB

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 11:24 AM

Through my head I keep remembering phrases GW Bush would say.

"" Freedom loving Americans will welcome having their emails and phones monitored""

I put in double quotes as its not an exact quote but more like he said on several occasions

Dave
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 11:47 AM

And where was the GOP when those Freedoms were being taken away?
Right behind George rooting all the way.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 11:52 AM

To be fair to the reps--they're not the ones who're up in arms about the data mining. Chambliss even said "This is not the scandal you're looking for. Move on."
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 12:47 PM

Still funding the core components of TIA after they defunded the IAO after it was revealed on Poindexter's watch. smirk

Wikipedia on TIA
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 01:01 PM

So many acronyms, so little time.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 01:06 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
To be fair to the reps--they're not the ones who're up in arms about the data mining. Chambliss even said "This is not the scandal you're looking for. Move on."


Oh.. I think everyone's up in arms about this.. as far as partisan sides go. I was referring to when it was enacted.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 01:31 PM

I hereby declare this forum an Acronym-Free Zone.

For those with no will power, that would be an AFZ. whistle
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 02:32 PM

Posted by: Celandine

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 06:07 PM





Posted by: DLC

Re: Data mining - 06/07/13 07:04 PM

Yes there are so many - esp. with school systems.
DISD- Dallas Independent School District
TISD - Tyler Independent School District
LISD- Lindale, Lewisville, or even Lubbock Independent School District(s)

I was once traveling SW of Tyler and went through a town called Palestine. I bet the teachers get a real kick when people ask them "Where do you teach" ? . . why PISD where else ? grin
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Data mining - 06/08/13 02:55 AM

Just because Bush did this in his administration which was wrong I think Obama is really pissing people off by doing this when he said at one time he never believed in this at all with his transparency messages always.What is next seeing what toilet paper people use.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/08/13 10:21 AM

Regarding Prism: Glenn Grenwald got the media to bite on a story that is 6 years old.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/07/aclu-challenges/


That toilet paper might be the Washington Post, now seriously walking back the sensationalist Grenwald claims.

The Washington Post Has Now Hedged Its S...o Their Servers
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Data mining - 06/08/13 03:52 PM

Originally Posted By: garyW
Regarding Prism: Glenn Grenwald got the media to bite on a story that is 6 years old.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/07/aclu-challenges/

The story isn't 6 years old -- proof of the Executive's use of FISA legislation to cast incredibly broad nets across vast swaths of domestic communications is today's news. Back 6 years ago we were assured this would be used only in instances of international communications to catch bad guys talking to bad guys in other countries. Now it seems it's been used as a license to launch giant fishing expeditions domestically and to gather details of all domestic communications over the last few years in to a convenient, easily-searched and -mined database ...

I don't recall all that happening 6 years ago ...


Quote:
That toilet paper might be the Washington Post, now seriously walking back the sensationalist Grenwald claims.

The Washington Post Has Now Hedged Its S...o Their Servers


It seems "direct access" may be in they eye of the beholder -- giving the NSA an API with which they can gather data from your server with their own interface rather than tapping directly into the server itself may or may not not qualify as "direct" is a strict sense, but the result is the same ...

I understand the rationale behind PRISM and that it's legal under current law. The conversation we need to have is wether those legal actions should be kept secret when they threaten the privacy of a huge portion of the population, and wether the fact that we've legalized such behavior is worth whatever "security" we're getting in return ...

Barry actually addressed this yesterday: "You can't have 100% security, and also then have 100% privacy and 0 inconvenience [...] we're gonna have to make some choices as a society" Which sounds great until you realize the hypocrisy of proposing a conversation about making choices while having tried to keep those same choices a secret from everybody ...
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/08/13 05:00 PM

The Republican majority of both houses of the 109th Congress gave Bush the power of the Patriot Act to conduct data mining under the FISA court, and immunity to all of the telecommunications companies that he had previously abused his power to avoid FISA Court Warrants.

I argued this point many years ago on this forum. The Bush NSA was criminal because it purposely avoided the FISA court, or played this stupid game of getting FISA warrants months & years after the fact to cover the administrations ass … and then the Republican Congress gave it all blanket immunity retroactively.

The Republican congress gave Bush executive power to everything that's now a Prism "scandal" for Obama, as if Obama is breaking the law. When in fact the Intelligence committee and congress has been routinely notified of the NSA's actions under FISA court orders. But with Obama it's a scandal. The headlines last week from Grenwald were that Prism was used domestically, now the news agencies are very quietly backpedalling on that. Grenwald's other sensational headlines of phone taps and illegal eavesdropping stretches the truth and only feeds the rightwing echo chamber and progressive left, but none of the metadata gathering is new and none of it is illegal.

I don't like the executive powers under the Patriot Act but I find it more offensive to misrepresent the legal actions of the NSA and attack the president because the public doesn't have a grasp of these executive powers. That's all the rightwing media cares about, and what is scary is how quickly all the media is interested in is a sensationalist headline.

I recall just a few weeks ago Obama made a very important speech to reconfigure and reboot our position on the War on Terrorism. Yet, today Obama could give a detailed talk to the American people on the Patriot Act and executive power, the NSA and counterterrorism efforts and a heavy dose of no-nonsense reality checks --- but if some douchebag from CodePink stands up and heckles him, then THAT is the only thing the media will report.

In my opinion, Glenn Grenwald is just this week's douchebag. He's obviously got a direct line to another douchebag with Congressional Intelligence clearance that's feeding him a steady stream of classified docs. So todays fauxoutrage is that the military has plans on how to conduct cyber attacks on foreign countries. Yes, this is now another Grenwald created Obama scandal.

The republicans and the mainstream media do not like the fact that a democratic president has executive powers, even after the President himself said a few weeks ago that some of these powers should be limited … but all the public heard then was that CodePink yelled at the President.

People on Facebook and Gmail are so upset about losing metadata privacy, LOL! laugh



Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 03:28 AM

Why do you say the Republicans do not like this type of action Obama is involved in now?
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 03:55 AM

Meh... It doesn't meta to me. confused
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 06:40 AM

Now Rand Paul has jumped on the bandwagon.

Rand, Rand, Rand! You're part of the Congress that authorized and funded this! You can't have it both ways!
Posted by: DLC

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 08:44 AM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
Now Rand Paul has jumped on the bandwagon.

Rand, Rand, Rand! You're part of the Congress that authorized and funded this! You can't have it both ways!

PLEASE !!! . . Don't confuse him with mere FACTS !! grin
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 09:13 AM

Too bad he's a douchebag, Gary. For a lesser man you coulda used this. laugh
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 09:23 AM

Originally Posted By: musicalmarv7
Why do you say the Republicans do not like this type of action Obama is involved in now?


Because the perpetual paranoid dystopia inside the rightwing/FoxNews media bubble has the unique ability to insulate their soulless hatred for the President and project upon themselves an image of Reagan/Jesus saviors of the Constitution, liberty, morality and prosperity … Bush Good, Obama Bad. >>>>> get it? <<<< laugh


Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 09:27 AM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
Too bad he's a douchebag, Gary. For a lesser man you coulda used this. laugh


Mostly I am ashamed that I wrote Grenwald, not Greenwald.


Greenwald's NSA Bombshell Story Falling Apart Under Scrutiny; Key Facts Turning Out to Be Inaccurate


The real story in the NSA scandal is the collapse of journalism


No evidence of NSA's 'direct access' to tech companies
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 09:32 AM

He needs a chart.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 09:56 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
He needs a chart.


…. because these classified super spy charts are so awesome … I would even join the debate to shut down the NSA because of their PPT graphics. I guess we can be proud that Hobo or Comic Sans wasn't used.






Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 02:59 PM

Quote:
The Republican majority of both houses of the 109th Congress gave Bush the power of the Patriot Act to conduct data mining under the FISA court, and immunity to all of the telecommunications companies that he had previously abused his power to avoid FISA Court Warrants. [etc., etc.]

Yes. All the Republican's fault. Thank goodness the Democrats repealed all that authority once they took control of Congress. Oh ... wait ... Also: Reauthorized in 2011. Those darn Republicans =P

With the support of both parties, the government has actually been exercising the lawful powers Congress has given it -- that's not the scandal. The scandal is that it's lawful in the first place, which only now through these recent revelations are people awakening to. Of course the right nutwings are going to use this to blame Obama. But most of the concern I've seen isn't with the president, but that the government has such powers legally --big revelation to them, but that's a good thing.

To sweep this away by saying "well, it's been going on for years and is legal" doesn't mean it's not something people should be paying attention to. And just because it's Obama carrying on the policies of Bush doesn't make it okay or even innocuous. Is it unfair that it's under Obama's watch that people are upset? Perhaps. But that's part of the job and Barry is more than capable of wearing the big-boy pants and dealing with that.

Both right- and left-wing hacks are going to try to take advantage of these revelations, but the silver lining is that hopefully this now sticks a little bit more in the public eye and something can be done to remedy the excesses ...
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/09/13 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: six_of_one
[quote] All the Republican's fault.


Oh yeah, irony alert!


1. Congress voted to legalize expansive surveillance powers in 2001 (The USA PATRIOT ACT), 2008 (retroactive immunity for warrantless NSA wiretaps in the FISA Amendments Act), and in 2012 (renewing the FISA Amendments Act).

2. The House GOP voted in 2012 to kill the ammendment and thus kept it all secret.

Congress declined to force administration transparency/honesty on secret interpretations of the law in 2001 (USA PATRIOT ACT), 2008 (NSA immunity), 2011 (the Wyden amendment to the NDAA, which would have required interpretations not be secret) & 2012 (the similar Markley amendment to the NDAA). Those last two actually got voted down, which means Congress voted to enable secret government legal interpretation.

3. The outrage of this "scandal" over the government’s ridiculously broad surveillance powers needs to be directed at CONGRESS, which keeps approving them while voting they stay secret.
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 03:18 AM

Yes I get it. Who really tells the truth now?
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 08:22 AM

Edward Snowden worked for the defense contractor Booz Allen Hamilton for 3 months, ending May 30. Glenn Greenwall has said he started working with this informant in February.

Sounds to me more like espionage than journalism.

What also is incredibly scary is the realization that thousands of private defense contractor firms control the flow of information, and how seemingly easy it was to let an operative with dubious intentions gain security clearance and access to all of it.

Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 08:37 AM

Here's another log for the fire. Check out the date.

Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 09:01 AM

Will somebody in the media please ask the outraged Congressmen and their political pundits who authorized these defense contracts, who reviewed them, who voted to fund them. Did they appropriate HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS (I would est at least since 2001) of dollars to firms for NSA Patriot Act-required data mining, establishing surveillance networks and data storage without knowing what they were spending on?

Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 09:30 AM

It's all opportunism on steroids. For the right, it one more "scandal" that despite originating under the Cheney badministration, is now an "Obama thing". For the left and the right, it's a lever Congress thinks it can use to get it's approval ratiung back above 10%. smirk
Posted by: DLC

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 01:47 PM

Does that read 2006(66) ? wink
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 02:19 PM

PSSST! Congress! It isn't working! crazy
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 02:37 PM

When you stop to think about the kind of bozos on that congressional bus, it's just as well that it's not working. eek
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 03:24 PM

No sh‘t, Sherlock. grin
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 04:36 PM

Originally Posted By: garyW
Edward Snowden worked for the defense contractor Booz Allen Hamilton for 3 months, ending May 30. Glenn Greenwall has said he started working with this informant in February.

Sounds to me more like espionage than journalism.

What also is incredibly scary is the realization that thousands of private defense contractor firms control the flow of information, and how seemingly easy it was to let an operative with dubious intentions gain security clearance and access to all of it.



They should absolutely throw the book at this guy -- and at anyone who may have aided and abetted him, even if they're a "journalist" (just because you may be a member of the Fourth Estate, you don't get a free pass to suborn possible espionage). Obviously, I agree with Gary on this one -- nothing he leaked was proof of anything illegal or of any wrongdoing. (As a note -- even if those leaks did provide such evidence, he *still* should be prosecuted -- he broke the law either way. The latter case would merely provide mitigating circumstances at the sentencing).

Anyways, simy disagreeing with established US law doesn't give one license to break it ...
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 05:39 PM

watch this brief video >>
Sen Al Franken not surprised by NSA surveillance.

He is the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Privacy, Technology & the Law*. It's all been reviewed, it's legal, it's about connecting the dots.


* Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology and the Law
Jurisdiction: (1) Oversight of laws and policies governing the collection, protection, use and dissemination of commercial information by the private sector, including online behavioral advertising, privacy within social networking websites and other online privacy issues; (2) Enforcement and implementation of commercial information privacy laws and policies; (3) Use of technology by the private sector to protect privacy, enhance transparency and encourage innovation; (4) Privacy standards for the collection, retention, use and dissemination of personally identifiable commercial information; and (5) Privacy implications of new or emerging technologies.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 07:05 PM

I don't doubt at all that the whole business was legal--unlike the initial trolling by the Bush administration, which by-passed the FISA courts entirely. The question, now as when the rules were rewritten to accommodate the Bush practices, is whether we want a country where this kind of thing happens.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 07:57 PM

To quote an absent forum member, "Toothpaste is out of the tube."

Digital technology is never going reverse itself and get less powerful and omnipresent. When the administration is able to be heard above all this hyperbole, people may actually understand that Obama has strengthened oversight. He made the claim just a few days ago as to challenge the press corp to review the history:

"So in summary, what you've got is two programs that were originally authorized by Congress, have been repeatedly authorized by Congress, bipartisan majorities have approved on them, Congress is continually briefed on how these are conducted. There are a whole range of safeguards involved, and federal judges are overseeing the entire program throughout. We're also setting up -- we've also set up an audit process, when I came into office, to make sure that we're, after the fact, making absolutely certain that all the safeguards are being properly observed. "

Some journo might want to check that out and report on it.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Data mining - 06/10/13 08:53 PM

Quote:
To quote an absent forum member, "Toothpaste is out of the tube."

Digital technology is never going reverse itself and get less powerful and omnipresent.

Technology, perhaps. But our government is supposed to be accountable to the people, and if the outrage is large enough, it *can* be made less omnipresent and powerful -- kind of like what happened to create this country in the first place ;-)

And, for better or worse, I believe the public by and large are disinclined to simply take the government's (read: Obama or any other president) word that "safeguards are being properly observed" -- especially regarding utterly opaque programs against which the average citizen has no course of redress should he even be allowed to know they exist ...
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 03:35 AM

My .02: It sucks that this is happening — been happening, more to the point, in one form or another for quite some time. But objectively speaking, I can sort of accept the national security argument.

I look at the difference btwn the abuse of power, and the abuse of people. The clandestine nature of the program tilts toward the former. But until — and if ever — the latter becomes evident, I can live with. I can dislike it — and I do — but there are worse things. And in that context, I really prefer that Congress get behind the POTUS and start putting as much effort into jobs, education, equal rights, and the economy as has gone into Scandalmania.

'Nuff sed.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 07:59 AM

When it comes to abuse of people, my concerns are that: a) by the time something becomes evident to the average Joe it'll be too late or too ingrained ("what's the big deal? This has been going on for years") to roll-back; and b) the incremental erosion of Constitutional rights becomes so subtle -- we can live with a little infringement here and a little erosion there -- that one day we may wake to realize we effectively have very few of them left ...

One of the most interesting and essential aspects about the American Experiment we've been running for the past couple centuries is the balance between freedom and security: what risks we're willing to accept in exchange for the freedoms we enjoy. What's good about these recent various leaks is they have increased awareness, at least a little bit, about how that balance has become skewed, and is continuing to skew, towards a less-free state in favor of a attempt to provide "100% security." (Some would suggest that it's far less about actual security and far more about government amassing power and control, but I'll leave that for another post ;-) ... In the best of all worlds this would lead to a real national discussion on where that balance should truly lie -- in today's low-information/high entertainment distraction environment, I have my doubts as to wether that discussion will really take place ...

Another aspect of the US experiment is the question of how far to trust the government in a system developed pretty much explicitly on the notion that governments cannot be trusted. On a practical level there of course has to be a certain amount of trust or the system won't work at all. But "just trust us, safeguards are in place and everything's fine" is pretty much as anti-American an attitude as you can get.

Are these recent revelations enough to motivate the populace to demand accountability from their government and to demand a restoration of lost liberties and rights? Or are we on an inexorable path where the populace is apathetic enough in their relative comfort and distraction -- or alternatively, in their dealing with the increasing wealth imbalance and just trying to make ends meet -- to not really care?
Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 08:21 AM

Well, the risks of today are quite a bit more extreme than when this American Experiment began. And in turn security is a different animal today than it was back then. Not that we — as a people — should become desensitized to the shift in the balance of privacy and security, but context and the reality of the global political environment can't be ignored either.

I think exposure/awareness and the resulting debate are important — especially for the long term. But I still think there are short term issues that need to be dealt with now so they're out of the way and can't distract from the long term. Right now, it's flipped, and we're letting a broader and more future-centric issue distract us from things that need to be and can be fixed now. Jobs and economic wellness today, please — and accountability a wee bit later and permanently thereafter.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 09:07 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Well, the risks of today are quite a bit more extreme than when this American Experiment began.


Bill Maher summed it up last Friday: when the Framers of the Constitution limited government intrusion for privacy rights, security considerations did not include nukes. When an entire city can be obliterated in seconds, an archive of metadata for reference to connect the dots and prevent such a thing seems like a national security necessity they might have considered.

Posted by: steveg

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 10:21 AM

That's pretty much my point. While there has to be a national discussion, and a better way to use the tools, I can live with "It sucks a little less than root canal."
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 11:50 AM

Originally Posted By: six_of_one
When it comes to abuse of people, my concerns are that: a) by the time something becomes evident to the average Joe it'll be too late or too ingrained ("what's the big deal? This has been going on for years") to roll-back; and b) the incremental erosion of Constitutional rights becomes so subtle -- we can live with a little infringement here and a little erosion there -- that one day we may wake to realize we effectively have very few of them left ...
Another aspect of the US experiment is the question of how far to trust the government in a system developed pretty much explicitly on the notion that governments cannot be trusted. On a practical level there of course has to be a certain amount of trust or the system won't work at all. But "just trust us, safeguards are in place and everything's fine" is pretty much as anti-American an attitude as you can get.
<snip>
Or are we on an inexorable path where the populace is apathetic enough in their relative comfort and distraction -- or alternatively, in their dealing with the increasing wealth imbalance and just trying to make ends meet -- to not really care?


<--kliker
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 01:10 PM

Originally Posted By: garyW
Bill Maher summed it up last Friday: when the Framers of the Constitution limited government intrusion for privacy rights, security considerations did not include nukes. When an entire city can be obliterated in seconds, an archive of metadata for reference to connect the dots and prevent such a thing seems like a national security necessity they might have considered.

The logical conclusion of that line of reasoning is that a free and open society is less and less possible in the face of increasing weapons technology: Think of a worst-case possible scenario and eliminate rights and freedoms in order to prepare for it -- as technology and capability increase, rights and freedoms decrease.

Yes, some bad people could set off a nuke somewhere. The question is how likely is that really? And to what extent are we willing to sacrifice rights and liberties to reduce (note I didn't say eliminate) that possibility, even if (as I suspect) it's rather low to begin with?

Obviously if we want to retain a semblance of what this society has been based upon, there's a balance to be struck between those ideals and the security environment that surrounds us. The question is where is that balance and where do we draw that line? And as technology and weapons capability advance, how do we prevent ourselves changing inexorably from a freedom-oriented state to one solely focused on security?
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 01:24 PM

That was the justification for Big Brother's regime, as I recall. Perpetual war calls for perpetual nosiness.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 03:00 PM


There are many taking sides in this debate that collection of metadata is the tryannical Big Brother regime. (These people need to get a grip.) I've heard a half-dozen pundits on TV just today claiming Obama is using this metadata to attack his political enemies. Most of these very loud idiots consider Obama the enemy of the nation … and so it goes.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 03:41 PM

I am not saying that Obama, or Bush back in the day for that matter, uses the data for any nefarious reason. But heaped up data will fester, I can almost guarantee it..
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 03:57 PM


Funny...
This same discussion came up once before...
...when the question of 'citizens allowing their
bags to be rifled-through in Sub-Way Stations'...

Some member claimed they'd allow it in exchange
for the assurance "...that there wouldn't a bomb
under the seat in front of them"

My remark at the time was, "I'll take my chances!"
I still stand behind that remark.


..and so it goes.
~ Kurt Vonegut Jr.
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 04:35 PM

Guaranteed that advertisers will buy it.

Posted by: DLC

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 04:45 PM

LOL that's my view... yes the Govt snoops and collects data on us , but private enterprise already has 10X as much. They know how and where you shop, what you buy, your preferences... have all your contact data. WTF do they NOT know? very damm little.... They probably know how many times you had sex in the last week/month, with whom, and how long it lasted ! blush

laugh . . . and which contraceptive you used (if any). blush

laugh laugh

What pisses me off about private enterprise is they SELL your data to others and make $ wo your permission.... BTW you capitalistic MoFos, where's MY cut of the moola ? whistle
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 06:10 PM

And that bothers the hell out of me too, David. By the way, the combination of state power working in tandem with private powers = fascism.
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Data mining - 06/11/13 07:33 PM


Silly Me:
I STILL Refuse to allow Google to Consolidate
and STORE my MAIL (...forever...) on the grounds
that I may Trust Them At THIS Point-In-Time...
...but Who Knows What the Future Might Bring... eek
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Data mining - 06/12/13 07:56 AM

Quote:
There are many taking sides in this debate that collection of metadata is the tryannical Big Brother regime. (These people need to get a grip.)

In and of itself, this program may not be Big Brother, but it sure is a huge step in that direction. You may or may not trust the Obama administration to not abuse all that information just sitting there waiting to be accessed, but what about future administrations? Or more likely, some mid-level government worker bee with issues of some sort and just enough access and smarts to start playing with the data? Judicial review and "safeguards" only work if people play by the rules (and if everybody did, then there wouldn't be programs like this in the first place ;-) It's the people who ignore those rules that we have to worry about -- and given the past history of some administrations, that's a very legitimate concern ...

Also, given that the argument seems to be "but we're not spying on US citizens, just everyone else on the planet," if you're anyone but a US citizen living in the US, you've got to be feeling really warm and fuzzy about our government right now =P
Posted by: garyW

Re: Data mining - 06/12/13 08:54 AM

Originally Posted By: six_of_one
Quote:
There are many taking sides in this debate that collection of metadata is the tryannical Big Brother regime. (These people need to get a grip.)

In and of itself, this program may not be Big Brother, but it sure is a huge step in that direction. You may or may not trust the Obama administration to not abuse all that information just sitting there waiting to be accessed, but what about future administrations? Or more likely, some mid-level government worker bee with issues of some sort and just enough access and smarts to start playing with the data? Judicial review and "safeguards" only work if people play by the rules (and if everybody did, then there wouldn't be programs like this in the first place ;-) It's the people who ignore those rules that we have to worry about -- and given the past history of some administrations, that's a very legitimate concern ...
P


Reality check:

Digital records of every digital transaction are not going to disappear, whether it's government or private corporations.

There will always be criminals in government and contracted workers.

No matter the safegaurds, someone will hack it.

Judicial oversight does not have to be a rubber stamp for 100% of warrant requests.

Legislated regulations must be enforced.

Congress does need to be filled with idiots who ignore their legislative responsibilities and act only for political gain.

The media will ignore history and fact, sensationalize any story and be politically influenced.



How does our country begin to fix this? Seems step #1 is paranoia (and we may be stuck here for a while)




Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Data mining - 06/12/13 02:57 PM

Quote:
How does our country begin to fix this? Seems step #1 is paranoia

It's not paranoia if it's really happening -- go back, say, 20 years and tell me we have the same protection against government surveillance and intrusion as we did in 1993.

The reality check is that 4th Amendment guarantees have been steadily eroded in favor of a more surveillance-oriented state "for our protection." Add to that Corporations having the same rights as human beings, money being free speech, the Executive having the power to detain foreign nationals and execute American citizens without due process (we're at war with Oceania Terrorists, after all!), and a Congress apparently run by eight-year-olds ... at this point a little healthy paranoia is probably a good thing ;-)

How the country fixes all of these is first to recognize what's been happening -- which is already taking place, albeit with attendant over- and under-reactions from various points of view. Then we can have that conversation Barry was talking about and hopefully establish what kind of society we want to remain/become in the face of advancing technology and capability ...
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Data mining - 06/12/13 03:35 PM


+1

The whistle has been blown, now to
examine (& possibly change) the pea. cool
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Data mining - 06/22/13 02:53 PM



cool
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Data mining - 06/22/13 05:29 PM

Apparently
it's only News 2 US smirk

Redgum A.S.I.O. "Frontline" (1984)


White door, ninth floor, silent number
It's autumn on a cold avenue
Telex intercept, he sips a cigarette
And warms up his V.D.U.

He gets his kicks from microchips
Orders from the C.I.A.
Birobugs and lasers, casual surveillance
Boardrooms and communiques

Don't use your phone and don't use mine
Don't speak treason, they're tapping the line

Break-in, stake out, tell it in code
Everything's legal, anything goes
The nights gettinG darker and an ill wind blows
Your life's in a databank at ASIO

Trained in the ghettos of the Lebanon
Truncheons and an M16
Selling skag, a U.N. flag
Now he's trading in securities

Darwin rendezvous, a B-52, trenchcoat slightly creased
From a coup in Asia, A U.S. Air Force major
Buying dirty laundry, swearin' it's for peace

Infiltration, we'll never know
Just like Chile but the bruises don't show

Break-in, stake out, tell it in code
Everything's legal, anything goes
The nights get darker and an ill wind blows
Your life's in a databank at ASIO

Spook behind the bar, unmarked car
Rumour hangs like stale perfume
Flushing under beds, sniffin' out the Reds
Nobody can feel immune

No names, no stress, no blame, no press
Clean when the dirty work's done
Allocate a budget, special branch thugs
Do it for the practice, do it for the fun

Midnight, flashlight, a crash on the door
Rats on the table, blood on the floor

Break-in, stake out, tell it in code
Everything's legal, anything goes
The nights get darker and an ill wind blows
Your life's in a databank at ASIO