Aurora again

Posted by: yoyo52

Aurora again - 01/05/13 03:10 PM

This time four dead, including the perp.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Aurora again - 01/05/13 03:43 PM

Must be something in the water.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Aurora again - 01/05/13 05:16 PM

Why show the movie plex???
Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/05/13 06:54 PM

Clearly not enough guns. sick
Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/05/13 06:55 PM

Symbolism.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Aurora again - 01/05/13 07:52 PM

See if they'd had armed teachers posted, all but the perp would have survived !! crazy

Gee-zus... Let's arm everyone so we can live in a nice POLICE STATE !! mad
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 03:02 AM

This is like a cancer spreading rapidly. We have to find a cure asap.I hope Obama really puts his insight and fortitude into this gun regulation in his second term and makes this a first priority of his.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 05:57 AM

I am still trying to find out from a reliable source like a police announcement about what guns were actually used in the killing of the victims in both cases. I don't want to hear it from someone who heard it said by someone who heard it from another person who saw it reported by some blogger.

I don't want to hear about what gun was similar or the same style which can use if outfitted correctly by a 100 round magazine or what not.
I want to know what specific model was used.

All of my searching has just found blathering from politicos . And why hasn't this been released.

Dave
Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 06:13 AM

And what difference does it make, really? Violence is violence. Dead is dead. Whatever kind of weapon was used, the user clearly should not have had possession of it in the first place.
Posted by: Mike

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 06:56 AM

What the heck is wrong with these people?
Posted by: MrB

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 07:24 AM

Actually, it makes a lot of difference.

There is a great amount of trafic going on about banning assault looking rifles and large capacity magazines and certain ammo. The reasons used are that these were instrumental in the commitment of these atrocities.

In doing my own analysis, since I have no factual information. Lanza could very well have done much the same damage with out the use of the "machine gun" many have said he used.

So I want to know, what weapon was used, what mags did he use, what ammo did he use for the carnage. I

It's not enough, to just say what "style" of gun he had there on in his car. Because of the lack of information forthcoming, and because initial reports said the Ar-15 was found in the trunk and since this information would not need to be withheld, that I'm beginning to wonder about the conspiracy theories I've been hearing about this.

I'm sure others would agree that facts should not be suppressed. Surely I can't be alone on this. Because, if I am, then this country is in trouble.

Dave
Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 07:57 AM

The facts are that innocent people were killed with guns. Guns that had no business being in the hands of this person. Guns — of any f'n description — that were used, not for hunting, nor for target shooting, nor for any reason but to murder. If you're trying to make a point by splitting hairs, you're dodging the issue.

So I ask again, who gives a sh!t what kind of guns were used? And I ask, how or why did this person have access to them? Are you beginning to acknowledge the problem yet?
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 09:52 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
So I ask again, who gives a sh!t what kind of guns were used? And I ask, how or why did this person have access to them? Are you beginning to acknowledge the problem yet?
The problem is that there are so many guns out there now how do we get them all back? It is estimated that there are around 300,000,000 guns owned by private citizens. There are more than 129,817 federally licensed firearms dealers in the United States. That train has long left the station, it's the main line of what the country was founded on, but we do need to enforce the laws we have, get rid of the gun show loophole, tighten restrictions on owning guns, limit clip size. I see no problem with private gun ownership if done right.

It's not just gun ownership, we are a violent country. This is compared to the other OECD countries. Although if you look at the graph the number of assault deaths here per 100,000 of population is almost half of what it was at its peak in the late 70s. Thanks to these intertubes we don't miss anything anymore so it seems like we are becoming more violent, also the population has increased by a third or so since then.

Of course, there's this side of the coin.

Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 10:20 AM

I don't think anyone in their right mind is thinking of getting guns back — except for the occasionally held and rarely productive public gun buy-back program. Nor is anyone suggesting the wholesale disarmament of legal gun owners. The objective is slowing the trend going forward. Deterrence through universal background checks, the banning of high capacity mags and assault weapons and other over-the-top weaponry that no one but the military needs or murders want.

As for the woman who shot the intruder, it could have just as easily gone the other way (and I've posted a/b the time I damn near shot a plain clothes cop because I thought he was a prowler). Sorry, but IMHO, that just doesn't balance the problem.
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 12:50 PM

.
Originally Posted By: steveg

As for the woman who shot the intruder, it could have just as easily gone the other way [snip].



You got that right!

Especially if she did not own a gun.

We must all make choices and decisions.

I respect yours, Steve.

I hold fast to my own.

Friends forevah! smile

If you ever visit me on a dark stormy night, as you knock at my door, please sing Kumbyah . . . and sing loudly. wink

.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Aurora again - 01/06/13 03:16 PM

The intruder did not burst in rapid firing at everything. That's the difference.
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Aurora again - 01/07/13 02:25 AM

What are they hiding? This is a pertinent question we must find the answer to. I agree with you.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/07/13 03:51 AM

Yeah, and I wanna know if the perp was wearing loafers or tie shoes 'cuz that's got a lot to do with the gun problem in this country, too. crazy
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 07:31 AM

Another perp plugged.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 08:30 AM

Murders down in NYC. They've cracked down on illegal guns. Preliminary evidence shows it works so far. 100 less murders than in 2008.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg gives much of the credit to a combination of police tactics and some of the toughest gun laws in the country.

But the crime rate is up, thanks to Apple. crazy
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 08:45 AM

This is a little like climate science. One data point doesn't prove much--but cumulatively, there does seem to be a pattern, internationally anyways.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 09:07 AM

Yep.. there's 300+ Million guns out there. Let them stay out there, for the most part. But, if we were to heavily regulate buying guns now... eventually the numbers will fall as guns get lost, broken or even turned in.

Would your opinion be the same if they were grenade launchers?
Posted by: DLC

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 09:28 AM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
Yep.. there's 300+ Million guns out there. Let them stay out there, for the most part. But, if we were to heavily regulate buying guns now... eventually the numbers will fall as guns get lost, broken or even turned in.

Would your opinion be the same if they were grenade launchers?


WHAT!!?? you don't have an RPG at home !! Oh man . . . are you vulnerable !! eek
What kind of "safe house" do you have ?

laugh

Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 02:41 PM

You're comparing a threat by a rational person against another rational person. With the mass shootings, it was an irrational (insane) person who burst in firing at anything that moved. If that robber had simply started shooting before he ever threatened, the outcome would have been quite different.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 03:52 PM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
Yep.. there's 300+ Million guns out there. Let them stay out there, for the most part. But, if we were to heavily regulate buying guns now... eventually the numbers will fall as guns get lost, broken or even turned in.
I agree. I'm okay with CCW but I'm not against better regulation at all, we need more of it and we need to close the loopholes.
Quote:
Would your opinion be the same if they were grenade launchers?
Not sure where that came from or what you're getting at. confused
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 04:02 PM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
You're comparing a threat by a rational person against another rational person
I wasn't comparing, you just read that into it I guess, just adding to the thread a different scenario, fair and balanced. Besides, robbing someone using a gun isn't rational IMO.
Quote:
If that robber had simply started shooting before he ever threatened, the outcome would have been quite different.
Well of course, but since he didn't someone having a CCW permit sure did change the outcome, it got a perp off the streets.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 04:29 PM

Folks have been throwing these out left and right like they were the same situation as Aurora and Newtown. Even here, they are posting a police officer or sheriff's deputy in the parking lots of schools. An insane person is going to take out the officer first. Someone who has some self-preservation thought is not going to consider it. They are there to provide a false sense of security only. It's ludicrous to suggest that someone armed could have stopped any of the mass shootings. They simply happen too suddenly and too fast.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 04:43 PM

How about this solution?

We clone Arnold Schwarzenegger and post him at each school !!
Hey sounds logical to me !! 130,000 Kindergarden Cops / Terminators !! wink

laugh
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
It's ludicrous to suggest that someone armed could have stopped any of the mass shootings. They simply happen too suddenly and too fast.
Newtown was 10 long minutes of horror that could have possibly been cut short.

The sad part is even having to consider guns in schools, which is how Aurora and Newtown totally differ.
Posted by: carp

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Jim_
Originally Posted By: MacBozo
It's ludicrous to suggest that someone armed could have stopped any of the mass shootings. They simply happen too suddenly and too fast.
Newtown was 10 long minutes of horror that could have possibly been cut short.

The sad part is even having to consider guns in schools, which is how Aurora and Newtown totally differ.


Well , Columbine had and armed guard which resulted in a shoot out with one of the suspects which drove him into the library and he killed more students in there. From that point the (armed guard) waited for police to arrive. <- the guard was certainly no Rambo.

With that in mind - having 1 armed guard means (absolutely nothing) - a perp can simply walk around any guard (undercover) , more so if that guard is paid security .

Anyway I agree with you;
If ya gonna throw more guns in school , lets do it with more pro-cops - this arming liberal educators with guns is totally stupid. I can see them trying to talk first and shoot 2nd, which is to late.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 08:35 PM

Good lord forbid that liberals be armed! wink
Posted by: carp

Re: Aurora again - 01/08/13 09:07 PM

No kidding - LOL

Better to teach not to kill.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 03:43 AM

The idea of more guns in schools even in the hands of trained professionals is fakucked. Ask anyone in the military or law enforcement that's ever been in a firefight. The unpredictability of where bullets go; the skill of the so-called "good guy" under that kind of stress; the presence of panicked bystanders who could run right into the middle of a crossfire... The potential risk of even more death or injury is magnified.

Might LaPierre's hypothesis a/b good guys with guns prove true? Columbine and Virginia Tech are just two examples that prove that reality is not in his camp.

Let a responsible adult take a young child on a supervised hunting trip. Sure. Let a responsible adult take a child to a properly managed shooting range. Of course. Allow kids to participate in professionally run gun safety events. Excellent. But allow children and guns to be in close proximity to one another in schools, churches, and other civic/public venues. Absolutely NOT!
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 08:16 AM

In today's local paper there was a story about the court proceedings involving James Holmes and the Aurora theater massacre. One bit of information that I may have heard before, but didn't register, is that the whole of the massacre took all of 27 seconds. I wonder what good it would have done to have had an armed officer in the place. Think about how long it would take for someone to react, to reach for a gun, undo the holster snap, bring up the gun, locate the shooter, and then aim the gun. The margin is 27 seconds.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 08:37 AM

That's just the point sane people are making... 27 sec or 10 minutes... 1 armed guard can't prevent carnade if someone really wants it to happen.The only hope is to get high powerwed, mega clips and guns off the streets and reserve them for only the military and SWAT teams. WHat civilian needs them??

and these gun nuts who want an arsenal to protect them from the Federal Govt..... how did Waco and Ruby Ridge work out? they're insane !! We have drones now- don't need to send any humans in harms way !! Their little arsenal won't mean squat !! It's like bring a pea shooter to a fight with Navy Seals !! shocked
Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 10:43 AM

Bingo. Reaction time can be fatal all by itself. And "... aim the gun..." is a huge factor. The nut with the AR only has to squeeze the trigger and pan the gun randomly, as opposed to taking another second or more to locate and line up on a single — and very likely moving — target.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 02:17 PM

And good luck aiming your gun while people are scrambling to get past you and out of the building.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 05:30 PM

On the Ed Show there's a teacher from Utah who says she will be carrying a gun to her classroom, that it's been legal to do so in Utah for a dozen years, and that she would not let parents know about it and feels that since it's a concealed weapons license, no one need know.

OK--start the response.
Posted by: carp

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 06:23 PM

Well she has a license .

Anyway,
I don't care if teachers pack some heat - only if the weapon is totally concealed and certainly there is (absolutely) no way a child can get their tiny hands on the weapon . There are way to many needless child shooting child deaths every year just because they got their hands on their parents guns.

As for telling the parent - certainly not. Thats the whole reason for having a license to carry a concealed weapon <-- nobody is supposed to know.

I can see it now that little Johnny farther, telling him that he better behave or else Mrs Diamond will blow his head off laugh
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 06:38 PM

.

she would not let parents know about it and feels that since it's a concealed weapons license

As for telling the parent - certainly not

-*-*-*-*-

No need for the parents to know! They'll never find out. No one, absolutely no one, watches Ed's show besides yoyo and me and we won't tell parents. Other news persons who heard what Ed said won't tell the parents. So, she is okay. No one will know her secret. . . . . .

.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 06:40 PM

The actual shooting lasted less than 4 minutes. It was 10 minutes between 911 calls.
Posted by: carp

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 07:00 PM

Thats the whole point (Kate) about being concealed <- no one is supposed to know - but tell the parents and I betcha in a week every kid in that school, would know about the new toy in the classroom to play with.

Yes I do agree at some point somewhere at sometime a teacher may aversely screw up and does revel that she/he is wearing a concealed weapon ? ? Bound to happen. Much like a crazy nut job thats bound to murder in a school.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Aurora again - 01/09/13 07:10 PM

So if no one knows, then what's the deterrent effect?
Posted by: steveg

Re: Aurora again - 01/10/13 04:03 AM

I saw that segment. The poor woman was totally out of her depth. I'm sure her heart is in the right place, but I suspect her head is somewhere dark and damp and permeated with right wing Muzak®. sick

Yeah, right, parent's don't need to know. Why? Because dollars to donuts, the majority would pull their kids out of that school in a NY minute! Guns are dangerous. They are instruments of death. Period. The sole purpose for their invention was to kill — wild game or human game. Sure, you could kill someone with a hammer. But the hammer is first and foremost a building tool. A gun is a killing tool, and probably not the smartest choice with which to drive nails.

Accidents happen. Thefts occur. Safeties fail. Magazines jam. There is no cogent or sane reason for those who shape our kids' minds to double as wannabe cops or commandos.

This whole more guns is the answer argument is like prescribing more cigarettes as a cure for lung cancer. crazy

I'll stop here, because otherwise, I could go on ad nauseum about this madness.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Aurora again - 01/10/13 11:41 AM

Just watched a fox news segment where they were all screaming about the liberal teachings of their children and parents should do homework with their kids and ask about what they did in school that day. If they are suspect about anything, they should talk to the school to make sure the brain-washing stops. BUT, sure as sh*t, do not tell the parents the teacher has a gun!

Everything is so upside down and wrong side out.
Posted by: carp

Re: Aurora again - 01/10/13 07:03 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
So if no one knows, then what's the deterrent effect?



Ahhh - there is NO deterrent effect , it is for personal protection . Consider that Columbine and that other school that had armed guards meant nothing to the killers either. So there ya go with personal protection.

Concealed is supposed to be incognito - if you let the parents know about the gun, it now becomes NO longer concealed. In fact the reveres may happen if there is a school shooting they can now say (where) was she with the gun that could have saved lives .
Posted by: carp

Re: Aurora again - 01/10/13 07:21 PM

Originally Posted By: Leslie
Just watched a fox news segment where they were all screaming about the liberal teachings of their children and parents should do homework with their kids and ask about what they did in school that day. If they are suspect about anything, they should talk to the school to make sure the brain-washing stops. BUT, sure as sh*t, do not tell the parents the teacher has a gun!

Everything is so upside down and wrong side out.


liberal teachings

Maybe a bigger smoking gun than the ones with a trigger ?

Fact;
Coworker who has his kids in a very expensive private school - that taught extreme anti-american government views , that has even disturb the parents , constantly. <-- not the school just a certain professor.

Anyway what is the line between Liberal ? ? one that educates for suicide bombing for their religion and society -vs- one that educates for the humanities ? Sorta a big mud puddle is it not? ?
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Aurora again - 01/10/13 09:10 PM

Quote:
Anyway what is the line between Liberal ? ? one that educates for suicide bombing for their religion and society -vs- one that educates for the humanities ? Sorta a big mud puddle is it not? ?


It is not.

In what way does "educating" students about suicide bombing, or even about "extreme anti-american government views" even remotely come close to being confused with being "Liberal?"

In fact, being a Liberal in America is in many ways pretty much the antithesis of being anti-government. And it is *absolutely* nowhere near being pro-suicide-bombing. How on earth do you see that as being a big "mud puddle?"

IMHO, the professor you describe could easily (and in many ways, more likely) be characterized as being radically -- and I emphasize "radically"-- to the right.

Crazy is crazy, and it's on both sides of the spectrum.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/10/13 10:15 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
So if no one knows, then what's the deterrent effect?
If guns are not allowed, there is no deterrent effect. If concealed is allowed would just knowing that there might be resistance be a deterrent effect?
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Aurora again - 01/10/13 10:28 PM

Suspecting but not knowing seems to be the problem with nuclear armament in the Middle East. I know, I know--not the same thing.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Aurora again - 01/10/13 11:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Jim_
Originally Posted By: yoyo52
So if no one knows, then what's the deterrent effect?
If guns are not allowed, there is no deterrent effect. If concealed is allowed would just knowing that there might be resistance be a deterrent effect?

The question here is wether what's desired is a society in which order is maintained by citizens being afraid of each other, or by trusting each other ...

If the former: anarchy?
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Aurora again - 01/11/13 02:52 AM

Good question you brought up here.Human behavior is different from each other and we all act and behave in various emotions and personalities.No one actually knows what the answer is regarding this violence what is happening in our society today.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Aurora again - 01/11/13 10:45 AM

I think everyone knows what side I'm on in this debate . I'm alone, mostly on this forum.

But, if I were allowed to carry when I was teaching I would not have carried while teaching. And I taught in a town that had a large gang presence for its size. I've mentioned before, that I was very cognisant of the appropriatness of the people in our building .

But where I lived was certainly in an area that had its problems. I lived there 16 years. Had my cars broke in twice. My car tag stolen twice in separate incidents, and my radio antenna broken off once. I called 911 twice in two incidents, one when I heard gunshots fired nearby and another when I noticed the dumpster in my alley was ablaze.

Another time, I was visited bythe police at 11:00PM wanting me to vacate my house for three hours for my safety, as they had a guy holed up next door and were vacating the rest of the block while they delt with him.

Also, I taught a photo class which we met in my home a couple ties each semester. One time two of my students were on the police tactical entrance team. When they came that evening they pointed out about 8 homes in my neighborhood where they had entered.

So I lived in an interesting partf Dodge City. But in all, I to along rather well with my neighbors. Many of whom were from Mexico.i normally called it the "international" district.

Statistically, speaking, I believe our schools are safe. Even tho they get the big headlines, and politicos and so called news spouters make a living hyping them up, Violence at our schools has been going dwn.

Dave
Posted by: carp

Re: Aurora again - 01/11/13 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: six_of_one
Originally Posted By: Jim_
Originally Posted By: yoyo52
So if no one knows, then what's the deterrent effect?
If guns are not allowed, there is no deterrent effect. If concealed is allowed would just knowing that there might be resistance be a deterrent effect?

The question here is wether what's desired is a society in which order is maintained by citizens being afraid of each other, or by trusting each other ...

If the former: anarchy?


Humm;

The wild wild west , they wore guns exposed and they shot each other constantly - So having everyone arm will not stop crimes at all just create even more.

Concealed weapons;
Well you gotta ask yourself one question if you are a Perp (Do I feel lucky today).

Anyway it is kinda a moot point , on a one to one basses because the prep would already have the drop on you , so going for a concealed weapon would just mean a bullet to your head. However like this classroom massacre (providing) the teacher was not shot first he/she could have the time to pull out a concealed weapon ? ?
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Aurora again - 01/12/13 02:13 AM

Again, the question really is: is the person I'm looking at a potential "perp" or just another citizen? ; Wether the society we want is one in which we're all suspicious of each other (and therefore need to be armed to the teeth just in case) or wether we trust each other ...

A pretty sad state of affairs if the determination is that everyone needs to be armed ...

Actually, a pretty sad state of affairs that that's even a consideration.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Aurora again - 01/12/13 07:27 AM

At some point, mythology catches up with you.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/12/13 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: six_of_one
Originally Posted By: Jim_
Originally Posted By: yoyo52
So if no one knows, then what's the deterrent effect?
If guns are not allowed, there is no deterrent effect. If concealed is allowed would just knowing that there might be resistance be a deterrent effect?

The question here is wether what's desired is a society in which order is maintained by citizens being afraid of each other, or by trusting each other ...

If the former: anarchy?
No question. It used to be the latter which were much easier times, something happened unfortunately. It's different times we live in. That's so cliché but in this case it's so true, but not for the better. It's the current climate we must learn to survive in while trying to make changes to bring trust back. If it is possible my guess is I'll never live to see much significant change but I guess we gotta try.

We've become a violent angry society. Or angry violent society, six-of-one, eh? smirk

Back to our regularly scheduled beverage.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Aurora again - 01/12/13 02:46 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
At some point, mythology catches up with you.
I don't get where you're going with that, and I didn't even have to look the word up this time. smile
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Aurora again - 01/12/13 03:52 PM

I'm thinking of the mythology of American identity. We'e living the consequences of all that lone ranger gun slinging radically independent tough guy macho image.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Aurora again - 01/12/13 04:45 PM

Quote:
No question. It used to be the latter which were much easier times, something happened unfortunately. It's different times we live in. That's so cliché but in this case it's so true, but not for the better. It's the current climate we must learn to survive in while trying to make changes to bring trust back. If it is possible my guess is I'll never live to see much significant change but I guess we gotta try.

I guess my response to that would be that we define the times we live in -- we're not passive observers but creators and shapers of our society. Surviving the current climate is as easy as choosing to trust one another -- which I believe a vast, vast majority of us already do -- and not capitulating to a gun-slinging minority's attempt to drag all of us into a Randian anarchy ...