Zimmerman charged in Martin case

Posted by: MrB

Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/11/12 03:34 PM

Well, shws that in America mob rules.

At least now the evidence will come out.

Also. Al Sharpton is a shiit head.

Dave
Posted by: DLC

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/11/12 04:56 PM

Well let's see what evidence they have. IF Zimmerman was biased and shot Travon with little provocation then the 2nd degree murder will stick and justice will be served. In that case, Sharpton was right and should be commended. IF Travon attacked Zimmerman (not realizing he was armed) then maybe Zimmerman was justified. I question Zimmerman had to kill Travon to resolve the situation unless it can be proven Travon went bezerk! You can't threaten the kid, hold him at gunpoint until police arrive, or wound him ? Killing seems extreme unless there was an uncontrolled altercation. BUT we're all guessing, without ALL the FACTS.

Apparently the DA had good cause to go for 2nd degree murder. On Chris Matthews show at 5 PM EST, a DA from another Co. went down the list of possible charges (while they were waiting for the Press conf) and there were about 5-6 potential charges they could make- 2nd degree murder was the worst. SO to arrest and make that serious charge, they must have some strong evidence. They could have gone for voluntary manslaughter, assault & battery, assault.. and 1 or 2 more lesser charges.

I will say I do NOT like the "stand your ground" law as it is currently written. How can you pursue someone (stalk, continue when advised NOT to, then confront them, and then claim stand your ground? Your "ground" was moving and YOU were the pursuer ! It might be different if you were the pursued.

Learned this: Everyone has the right of "self defense" which is essentially "stand your ground" on your own property. The "stand your ground" Law allows you to apply that principle anywhere you can legally be (in public). Sounds good, except when you allow someone to stalk someone else and then decide they're bad with no evidence and then take their life. I don't want self righteous vigilantes running around with guns making those decisions - THAT"S what the Police and the courts are for !! shocked

Hell you could have some jerk picking fights, shooting someone, and then claim "stand your ground" !?? HTF do you separate the good & justified from the abused situations ?? mad
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/11/12 05:01 PM

While the SYG rule may need clearer definitions....
I like the fact that I am allowed to defend myself to the death if necessary.
I believe it is a huge deterrent to a lot of crime, if someone knows I may just be packing a gun and will use it.

For the record....I don't even own a gun.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/11/12 05:22 PM

Maybe one tweak would be to say the SYG Law does NOT apply if you pursue the person that's killed - i.e. you can go the other way and avoid the situation. Your life was NOT in imminent danger if you can escape (esp. from someone unarmed).

I DO understand if you're out in public and someone assaults you, you pull heat and they don't back away and you kill them - then that IS justified. But if you pull a gun and they run and you then chase them down and shoot them - then that's NOT appropriate. Sure they're bad azzes that deserve prosecution & time, but most citizens are NOT well-trained enough with fire arms and you could kill a bystander with your reckless behavior. ID the fokker, and let the Police do their work.

For the Record : I'm not against people who serve as Neighborhood Watch, but I don't want them carrying guns and trying to play cop thinking they're John Wayne ! eek That puts people in as much danger as the thugs do ! If I wanted Dodge City, I'd invent a Time machine ! laugh
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/11/12 05:24 PM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
While the SYG rule may need clearer definitions....
I like the fact that I am allowed to defend myself to the death if necessary.
I believe it is a huge deterrent to a lot of crime, if someone knows I may just be packing a gun and will use it.

For the record....I don't even own a gun.


I don't own a gun, either. The current FL law needs to be better defined. They need to remove the immunity from arrest and prosecution when self-defense is invoked.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/11/12 09:43 PM

I may be the only one who watched the assigned prosecutor's news speech , but she seemed to me to be doing "climate control". She was very quick to defend the investigation and court system. Although I couldn't hear the questions thrown at her so they may have riled up her defenses in that regard.

I would not be surprised if he was acquitted .

I have a hard time believing that this was racially motivated understanding that a man who has mentored African-Americans would intentionally hunt out an African-American and shoot him down.

I still have not heard much of this so called gated community. Is there a gate one has to open to come into the area? Is there a gate keeper there admitting folks? Is the convenience store, Martin was at, inside the area or outside. What is the racial makeup of this community? Martin was African-American. Was his dads girl friend Afrcan-American? How many burguries have occurred before this?

A friend ask me why was this guy carrying a gun. I said that he dd so for protection. My friend should know as his girlfriend just got her CC permit in Kansas.

So many questions.

Dave
Posted by: MicMeister

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/11/12 11:50 PM

Does wearing a hoodie make one automatically look conspicious after dark? Or is it the combination of a darker complexion and a hoodie, that does that? Heck, I'm 35 and still wear hoodies most of the time, so not usually with the hood over my head, and I'm white, but still. And knowing something about the American society, everything has to do with race and racism there eventually, it's the history dictating that, IMO. And this case obviously needed to go to court for justice, regardless of a SYG law in place or not.

I just read this WP article, and I don't know how much of it is media trying to portray him as such, the shooter appears to be a scared neighborhood watch type fantasizing of being a cop.

And what was he protecting himself from while carrying a gun? Angry criminals confronting him while immersed in his neighborhood watch duty?

So, if he decided to follow the kid himself after calling 911, why would he do that? I mean, if you're seventeen, after dark, minding your own going to the store and an adult male starts following you, you are most likely to become at least a little concerned of your well-being. Actually, regardless of your age and sex, if someone starts following you after dark, you get at least a little concerned.

And, finally, I think this thread needs other opinions as well. Just a little too white (and middle-class) at the moment...
Posted by: steveg

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 03:25 AM

I did own a few handguns once upon a time.

I did once feel threatened and damn near dew down on the detective I thought was a prowler!

I did discover that damn near shooting someone can be the biggest deterrent to owning a gun.

I did sell my guns back to the dealer the very next day.

Nuc, when you're the one shucking a round into the chamber, ready to place said round up someone's ass, you suddenly have a very sober POV on guns.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 03:30 AM

Wrong on point one.

Correct on point two.

Dead wrong on point three. Sharpton & Co. did for this case and the broader issue of Stand Your Ground what Schultz & Co. did for the people of Wisconsin. Huge injustices would have remained under the national radar and done ugly X 100 to people who deserve better.

I'm just sayin...
Posted by: DLC

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 03:47 AM

Well Dave, I'm trying not to rush to judggement- I could see it going either way depending on the facts. Meister has some good points. Everyone is focused on what was in Zimmerman's mind and forget what could be going through a kid's mind with someone stalking him. Zimmerman does not know Travon's motives and Travon does not know Zimmerman's motives... I mean neighborhood watch groups don't wear uniforms (like police) or have identifiable badges etc... Travon could have thought him a preverted psycho. Maybe they should wear caps that say "Neighborhood Watch" or something. All events started off innocent but blew into a tragedy because force was engaged. That needs to be applied judiciously and not callously or with wreckless regard like the current SYG Law allows. The law needs to be revoked or seriously tweaked and clear definitions made of when it's applicable. Right now the doors are wide open for abiuse.

Here's another problem with aggressive watch people like Zimmerman. What if a perfect stranger confronted you about your personal business, wouldn't you feel offended??

Posted by: MrB

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 05:34 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Wrong on point one.

Correct on point two.

Dead wrong on point three. Sharpton & Co. did for this case and the broader issue of Stand Your Ground what Schultz & Co. did for the people of Wisconsin. Huge injustices would have remained under the national radar and done ugly X 100 to people who deserve better.

I'm just sayin...


Point one being my take on Prosecuter press conference. Again that was my take.

But Sharpton has always been mostly about Sharpton. I haven't seen Jacson yet but am quite certain he will be out. There have been several homicides since incident, we're s the meda outcry about them.
But that's to be expected.

It will all come out, I expect.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 07:09 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
I did own a few handguns once upon a time.

I did once feel threatened and damn near dew down on the detective I thought was a prowler!

I did discover that damn near shooting someone can be the biggest deterrent to owning a gun.

I did sell my guns back to the dealer the very next day.

Nuc, when you're the one shucking a round into the chamber, ready to place said round up someone's ass, you suddenly have a very sober POV on guns.


I have a sober view of guns now... TYVM. That's why I have never owned a gun. We had a couple of .22 rifles in the house when I was a kid, but those were mostly for shooting snakes and such, since we lived on some decent acreage in the middle of nowhere.
BUT... I'm down here in the Miami/Ft Lauderdale area... and if mob mentality or riots were ever to break out, or if there were a food shortage, etc. I would like to have a means of defending my home and family.
So.. I am mentally preparing for a conversation with the wife about how and why and where to to store it.
We have a 3 year old daughter who is inquisitive about everything.
I'm thinking on top of kitchen cabinets with a gun lock.
The cabinets are very high and even I have to exert a bit of effort to get up there.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 08:53 AM

Little ones in the house present you with a vexing conundrum. Locking your guns in a box above your kitchen cabinets doesn't do you much good in terms of self-defense. Not to mention, that's the first place an intruder is going to look if they think you might have guns in the house that they want to steal. If a gun is going to be of any use to you, you want the dang thing under your pillow or on your hip where you can get at it immediately if you're life is threatened.

The thing with a gun is that if you're going to have one, you have to be willing, ready and able to use it in an instant. Otherwise, why bother?
Posted by: DLC

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 09:07 AM

Yeah that's why we never had one... with kids it's a big risk we didn't want to take. And you can't keep it secure from them AND have it at a moments notice for protection... it's impossible. So why risk it ?? eek

If your surroundings are that bad- move ! wink
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 10:16 AM

Well.. my thinking isn't so much about an intruder out of the blue... more like when food supplies start running out and people start acting crazy from hunger. That sort of scenario.... then I'll bring the gun down. I also recently installed a wall safe that is hidden..I may elect to put it in there. But the thing is... even in a safe.... gun lock stays on and bullets separate.
For me this would be the best scenario with a child in the house as opposed to loaded and under my pillow, even with a gun lock.

Hell... it feels a wee bit sketchy down here now...seeing that I'm only about 10 minutes away from where the Zimmerman shooting took place.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 11:05 AM

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but if there are food shortages and things get crazy, one gun won't help - you'll need a machine gun nest to survive... and are you going to stay awake 24/7- 365 ?? Who's going to cover home when you go out for ammo ?? You'll need that arsenal that "survivalist" couple had in Tremors !! THEN they won't break into your Rec Room !! laugh


Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 11:11 AM

Further complicating that is the fact that I live in a metropolitan area. I can take the aluminum hurricane shutters on the outside of my house and put them on the inside and screw them into the walls. I can then drill little holes to see out. laugh

I'm not talking about a zombie siege. If I decide to "bug out" to the mountain areas where my Dad lives... at least I'll have a weapon for on the road.

1 gun and 2,000 rounds of ammo will be a small help... but it'll help.
To watch someone come in and violate my home and family and to not have done anything in preparedness... well, I couldn't quite stand for that.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 02:01 PM

I like the mountain idea. Take the high ground and hold it. That's what Sam Elliott said in Gettysburg anyway. laugh
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 02:15 PM

"Hell... it feels a wee bit sketchy down here now...seeing that I'm only about 10 minutes away from where the Zimmerman shooting took place."

Didn't hear anything did ya? You probably mean 10 min by car. I have no car these days, so I think of most distances in walking time. If I lived in a more dangerous area, I might think about owning a weapon. Hopefully I'll never have to make that choice?
Posted by: steveg

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 03:24 PM

Have you seen this tv series called Doomsday Preppers? grin
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 03:51 PM

Yes, I have been watching preppers.. it's partly responsible for my getting offa my duff and taking some action.
I saw a battery operated UV sterlizer 2 days ago at Costco.
Hmmmm
I was reviewing solar ovens today. Dang, I made one of those when i was a kid, out of a box and some aluminum foil. I'm thinking about the Global Sun Oven for the backyard. Preety cool stuff actually. I also want a WaterBob.
Even though I have a small 15 ft above ground pool.
http://survivalcache.com/emergency-water-storage/

I've got lots of pocket knives and a generator.
I'm looking into some bulk dry goods too. A starter kit anyways. A few months of dry goods isn't that much to have on hand actually. Perhaps some N95 masks. Definitely need more first aid stuff. Gotta stock up on some penicillin in the fridge.
Or I could just rely on the government to come to my aid. MuuahahahhahaLOLOLOL.
Photos of peeps in Texas at the Superdome come to mind.
Got my metal detector ready ... just need a small Geiger counter now.
Oh... and I need to build a small Faraday cage to protect my radio from EMP.

Didja know that one good sized nuke over the mid west at about 30,000 feet will emit an nice EMP..... enough to knock out 80-90 of the US. FK.

Crap....gotta run...I think I just heard someone in my backyard.....
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 04:00 PM

"Didja know that one good sized nuke over the mid west at about 30,000 feet will emit an nice EMP..... enough to knock out 80-90 of the US. FK."

And the cold war powers thought we needed thousands of these things..

"Crap....gotta run...I think I just heard someone in my backyard....."

laugh
Posted by: iMacsoontobe

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 04:55 PM

Oh my this is turning into a survivalist thread.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 05:54 PM

Quote:
Oh my this is turning into a survivalist thread.


If you are just now realizing this... then it's too late.. you're dead.
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 06:27 PM

Back to Zimmerman, has been denied bond in his pre-trial hearing. Sounds like things are beginning to be taken seriously.


It would seem nearly impossible to find 12 American citizens who don't have at least a cursory knowledge of this case. Heck I'm all the way over here, usually quite behind on such stuff, and I know quite a bit. Maybe they can finally unfreeze some of those people in cryogenic freezes for an unsullied jury? Freezing oneself should not absolve someone from jury duty.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 06:32 PM

I'm actually of the mind that he may be innocent.

Either way...we all have to remember..it's going to boil down to one thing....

Reasonable doubt.
Posted by: iMacsoontobe

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/12/12 06:54 PM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
Quote:
Oh my this is turning into a survivalist thread.


If you are just now realizing this... then it's too late.. you're dead.



lol
Posted by: DLC

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/13/12 03:51 AM

Heard something on MSNBC that it could go to a judge and not jury simply because almost NO one hasn't heard of this. IN that case, the Judge wouldn't need "beyond reasonible doubt" to convict, but just a reasonable proof that Zimmerman acted irresponsible in a moment of derangement. I don't understand all the legal implications, but that was one comment from a "legal expert".

This is very similar in publicity to the OJ trial. eek

Posted by: lanovami

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/13/12 07:11 AM

"I'm actually of the mind that he may be innocent."

Of course. But I am glad he is in custody, which he should have been much earlier, bond or no.
Posted by: carp

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/17/12 06:27 PM

Originally Posted By: lanovami
"I'm actually of the mind that he may be innocent."

Of course. But I am glad he is in custody, which he should have been much earlier, bond or no.


The police do that here all the time as well. They would book someone, just take photos and finger prints and then release them. A week or 2 later they would pick them up, I guess that give them time to investigate.

Anyway,
Remember the police cannot hold anyone after 24 hours, without charges.
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/17/12 07:57 PM

"Anyway,
Remember the police cannot hold anyone after 24 hours, without charges."

Good point. I am curious if that went into their thinking or not when it all went down.
Posted by: carp

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/17/12 09:23 PM

Originally Posted By: lanovami
"Anyway,
Remember the police cannot hold anyone after 24 hours, without charges."

Good point. I am curious if that went into their thinking or not when it all went down.


I believe the SYG took precedence , so they thought he was acting with in the law. Not to mention there is no way to investigate in 24 hours, with only Zimmermans word of events and few witnesses <-- remember it was dark and it is a known fact that witnesses are the worse source of any facts.

So really the police had to let him walk, while they investigate. With that age old (Don't Leave Town).
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Zimmerman charged in Martin case - 04/18/12 06:45 PM

Originally Posted By: carp
Originally Posted By: lanovami
"Anyway,
Remember the police cannot hold anyone after 24 hours, without charges."

Good point. I am curious if that went into their thinking or not when it all went down.


I believe the SYG took precedence , so they thought he was acting with in the law. Not to mention there is no way to investigate in 24 hours, with only Zimmermans word of events and few witnesses <-- remember it was dark and it is a known fact that witnesses are the worse source of any facts.

So really the police had to let him walk, while they investigate. With that age old (Don't Leave Town).


The Florida law specifically states that you cannot be arrested or prosecuted when you claim self-defense. The police could not legally detain him after he gave his statement.