So how's Obama working out for you dems?

Posted by: John Rougeux

So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 04:57 PM

I don't watch much news and definitely no political BS, but I was wondering how Obama was doing as president?

Did we close Guantanamo like he said he would?

Are we out of Iraq and Afghanistan like he promised?

wait, I just googled Obama election promises and found this site:
top site: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/
next down the list: http://moveleft.org/obamas_promises/index.html

and the list goes on.

Where is the outrage over this? I guess he's busy "fixing" the economy....giving away money rather than creating jobs. Housing industry is still in a slump.

I still get these 0% interest credit cards in the mail...wtf. When will these banks learn??

I'm just pointing out the fact that no matter the political party, they are all screwed up. Right, Left, whatever. Well, we are just right/left because no central/independent/etc will ever get voted in.

I wonder how Ross Perot would have done had he won? heh
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 04:59 PM

Ross Perot was the human equivalent of a Chihuahua.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 05:07 PM

Small with a lot of bark?

How does that relate to wondering how he would have done as president?
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 05:11 PM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Small with a lot of bark?

How does that relate to wondering how he would have done as president?
Small with a lot of bark. Oh wait, we got that with GW. Would you rather have had a senile old man and an idiot?
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 05:28 PM

Campaign promises meet reality. Of course, Obama's campaign promises haven't played out. How could they considering the piles of sh!t that were left to him?
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:05 PM

Well, like I said, both parties are not very good. Currently we have a liar and what..someone who isn't better than Bush as VP?
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:07 PM

Quote:
the piles of sh!t that were left to him?

And no money to have it cleaned up.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:13 PM

Ah, but see...obviously we DO have money if we can continue to sustain 2* wars with a 1/2 one just starting.

How about we quit sending aid to other countries? Right there that would save us a TON of money. Egypt alone would save us $2 Billion annually. And that's just 1 country.

It's crazy what we send out of country to others that disrespect us.

*Well, I am counting Iraq since we still have troops in country, even though we aren't actively in a war per se currently.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:18 PM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Ah, but see...obviously we DO have money if we can continue to sustain 2* wars with a 1/2 one just starting.

How about we quit sending aid to other countries? Right there that would save us a TON of money. Egypt alone would save us $2 Billion annually. And that's just 1 country.

It's crazy what we send out of country to others that disrespect us.

*Well, I am counting Iraq since we still have troops in country, even though we aren't actively in a war per se currently.


I refer you to this: http://forums.applecentral.com/ubbthreads.php/posts/554580/Things_that_make_you_go_Hmmmmm#Post554580
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:24 PM

Ok...sure, that's one thing that can and should be changed. But what about aid to other countries?

It all boils down to morals and ethics.

Have you ever bought anything online and didn't pay taxes on it? You being from FL, I don't know how that works, but in most other states, you are supposed to claim that on your taxes and pay it.

I wonder how many don't?

So...that's one example. But it shows that it goes from big corporations to the ordinary person out there...we don't like to pay taxes.
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:27 PM

I think he's killed his re-election, unless the GOP puts up the likes of Palin or Bachman.. maybe Newt or Huckabee. Romney would probably win, but the GOP doesn't like him for his Healthcare and abortion stance.

The GOP will never accept BO no matter how he tries to placate them, and his base feels betrayed. I'd still vote for him over most GOPers, but I wouldn't be thrilled with the choice. Course he could get defeated in the primaries, but VERY unlikely. But who knows - the Dems may realize a lost cause and surprise everyone. They're not as "programmed" as the GOP. grin
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
I guess he's busy "fixing" the economy....giving away money rather than creating jobs. Housing industry is still in a slump.

I wonder how Ross Perot would have done had he won? heh

Yes they should have given the TARP to the Homeowners instead of the Banks directly. That was BUSH, John. "Gotta have the money now, gotta have it now, gotta have it now !!"
1. The homeowners would still have homes.
2. Homes not being forclosed would have helped keep home values higher for everyone !
3. The Banks would have still eventually gotten the $ anyway !

GEEZ why didn't some of those smart alec GOPers in Bush Admin think of that? whistle

Ross Perot... a yapping Chihuahua . . . with charts ! wink
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:36 PM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Ok...sure, that's one thing that can and should be changed. But what about aid to other countries?

It all boils down to morals and ethics.

Have you ever bought anything online and didn't pay taxes on it? You being from FL, I don't know how that works, but in most other states, you are supposed to claim that on your taxes and pay it.

I wonder how many don't?

So...that's one example. But it shows that it goes from big corporations to the ordinary person out there...we don't like to pay taxes.

I don't mind paying taxes, when they are used properly. Florida has no income tax, so there is no way to claim that.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:54 PM

Yeah, let's not place blame on the people who put themselves in this situation! Wouldn't want to hurt any feelings, after all, they were forced by the banks/mortgage companies to take these high risk loans for homes they normally shoukdn't be able to afford.

People lived beyond their means due to greed & consumerism. Plain and simple. When they sunk under debt, the banks (and us) suffered

Obviously people like you and me are too smart to be trapped by the stupidity of greed

But please, nobody, not presidents, banks or even your mother, can force you to sign a high risk balloon loan. Personal responsibility needs to come into play here SOMETIME
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:55 PM

Yeah, thought FL didn't have sales tax
Posted by: Jim_

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 06:58 PM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
I don't mind paying taxes, when they are used properly. Florida has no income tax, so there is no way to claim that.
How about this?

Do your part. wink
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 07:12 PM

Interesting. So i wonder how many in FL are avoiding paying taxes just like those off shore companies? laugh
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/22/11 10:32 PM

It has been said before but this looks like a good time for a reminder.
The countries with the happiest people are the countries with the highest taxes.

Why? Because people stay happy even if they pay 80% of their income as taxes. Which helps the government to provide them facilities like funded childcare, parental leave, health care, education (including university), retirement pensions, sick leave and many others.

You get what you pay for.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 02:34 AM

Would you mind providing some examples of this? Which countries?

I understand what you are saying, but not sure it's right. Isn't that the way the old Soviet Union was? They provided everything? I'll have to do some research.

What is tbe tax like in Canada? I think England has a higher tax rate than us, yett they don't seem to be much happier than us.

If the government provides everything, how does that encourage jobs?

And seriously, 80% of their income paid as taxes?? What country is this?!
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 03:23 AM

Originally Posted By: Leslie
It has been said before but this looks like a good time for a reminder.
The countries with the happiest people are the countries with the highest taxes.

Why? Because people stay happy even if they pay 80% of their income as taxes.


Well, I did a google search and found this on Wikipedia:
Denmark is the most taxed country in the world with a tax-to-GDP ratio of 48.9%, so not sure where you got 80% unless it was just a theoretical number you threw up there.

Japan has the highest Corporate tax at 40.69%, Denmark has up to 50% in Individual tax. Hungary has 50% in Payroll tax, and Portugal has a 21% VAT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Now, what I would like to know is how "happy" the citizens of their countries are...I don't know.

Paying more taxes means less money in your bank. Less money means less able to purchase what you want or travel or whatever.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 03:24 AM

Ross Perot may be a chihuahua, but who knows what would have happened if he was president. Seriously. He could have been MUCH better than any we've had lately...or much worse, I don't know. But we'll never know.
Posted by: steveg

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 03:46 AM

John, allow me this hypothetical over-simplification, if you will:

From this day forward, you are a community. 100% tax-exempt. Fed, state, city. Your tax liability is zip. Nada. Zilcharooni. El Poof!

But within this community that you are, you have schools to fund, bridges to build, roads to repair, police and fire departments to staff and equip, water and power to provide, and all the other things that are necessary for you to maintain the safety and viability of the community known as John. Plus a military, a national governing body, a coast-to-coast infrastructure... and the list goes on.

Who pays for this? Santa Clause?

Do you abolish currency and enter into barter agreement with all of these entities and — to take a page from Sue Lowden's book — pay for it with chickens?

Or do you ask all of your community members to pool a portion of their money, based on some metric that factors in what each has and can afford to contribute? Sound familiar? Yeah. A tax.

Look, there's no denying that our tax code is kookier than an Escher painting, and desperately needs untangling. But you tell me, if you had to either pay directly out of pocket for all that stuff or do without it all, or if it was all just there all the time for your benefit because some portion of your income helped fund it, which would make you happier?

Again, this is an over-simplification. But your objection to taxes in principle is equally over-simplified — even a tad sophomoric, I'm afraid.

Just my dos centavos.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:13 AM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Yeah, let's not place blame on the people who put themselves in this situation! Wouldn't want to hurt any feelings, after all, they were forced by the banks/mortgage companies to take these high risk loans for homes they normally shoukdn't be able to afford.

People lived beyond their means due to greed & consumerism. Plain and simple. When they sunk under debt, the banks (and us) suffered

Obviously people like you and me are too smart to be trapped by the stupidity of greed

But please, nobody, not presidents, banks or even your mother, can force you to sign a high risk balloon loan. Personal responsibility needs to come into play here SOMETIME


So, it was the consumers' fault that the banks sold high risk mortgages and then packaged them up as securities so that they could resell them knowing that they would fail. Yep! You're average Joe could see that coming.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:14 AM

Steve,
when and where did I say that I object to taxes? Seriously...please show me. I DID say this:
Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
So...that's one example. But it shows that it goes from big corporations to the ordinary person out there...we don't like to pay taxes.


and this:
Originally Posted By: John Rougeux

Paying more taxes means less money in your bank. Less money means less able to purchase what you want or travel or whatever.


Now please, show me where I said I objected to taxes? I don't like to pay MORE, but nowhere does it say that I objected to paying ANY taxes.

So please do me a favor, READ my posts before making a quick assumption, it's a bit sophomoric, to quote someone who shall be unnamed.

I know how taxes work and I know how they are needed to keep a country running.
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:15 AM

Truthfully John there is no one really decent to run so far for 2012 elections. Obama has a problem where he has no real balls so to speak of and cowers to the republicans mostly.I like his personality but lately as a president of the U.S. I am losing faith in him. I think truthfully speaking he is on the side of big business and wall street and puts on a facade he is for the people. In Wisconsin he never participated in the strikes against Walker and just stood there on the sidelines pertaining to collective bargaining I mean. In Libya he never gave a definitive answer about Ghadaffi about killing him for good or really destroying his weapons bases.Just really nothing concrete at all.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:16 AM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo

So, it was the consumers' fault that the banks sold high risk mortgages and then packaged them up as securities so that they could resell them knowing that they would fail. Yep! You're average Joe could see that coming.


So, if the consumer didn't AGREE to these high risk mortgages, how exactly would the bank be able to do that?



Sorry, but your argument that it was the banks fault is still unfounded. Try again.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:17 AM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Steve,
when and where did I say that I object to taxes? Seriously...please show me. I DID say this:
Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
So...that's one example. But it shows that it goes from big corporations to the ordinary person out there...we don't like to pay taxes.


and this:
Originally Posted By: John Rougeux

Paying more taxes means less money in your bank. Less money means less able to purchase what you want or travel or whatever.


Now please, show me where I said I objected to taxes? I don't like to pay MORE, but nowhere does it say that I objected to paying ANY taxes.

So please do me a favor, READ my posts before making a quick assumption, it's a bit sophomoric, to quote someone who shall be unnamed.

I know how taxes work and I know how they are needed to keep a country running.
So, why do those who can afford to pay taxes cry the loudest? Hmmmm?
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:21 AM

Originally Posted By: jerryfox3
Truthfully John there is no one really decent to run so far for 2012 elections. Obama has a problem where he has no real balls so to speak of and cowers to the republicans mostly.I like his personality but lately as a president of the U.S. I am losing faith in him. I think truthfully speaking he is on the side of big business and wall street and puts on a facade he is for the people. In Wisconsin he never participated in the strikes against Walker and just stood there on the sidelines pertaining to collective bargaining I mean. In Libya he never gave a definitive answer about Ghadaffi about killing him for good or really destroying his weapons bases.Just really nothing concrete at all.


They (Presidents) are ALL like this...some special interest has their hands in his pockets.

Why would the Republicans be any different than Democrats when it comes to running things? I mean, the Democrats were in charge of things but nothing changed.

Didn't Clinton have a democratic congress or senate?
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:26 AM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
So, why do those who can afford to pay taxes cry the loudest? Hmmmm?


I see we are going off on a tangent here about taxes rather than the topic at hand.


Michael,
are you talking about Corporations? Please, let's leave no mystery or ambiguity to our posts. Speak plainly and clearly.

I'll assume you mean Corporations, but there are people out there that complain about paying taxes.

That's probably because they pay more? I don't know...

By paying more, they are shouldering the support of people that SHOULD be out working and paying taxes, such as welfare receipitants.

I think a flat tax should be the way to go. You pay x% of your income, period. BUT, problem with that is that who would want to go out there and earn more money when you have to pay whatever % in taxes? How does that spur job creation?

Edit: strike that last part.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:32 AM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Originally Posted By: MacBozo
So, why do those who can afford to pay taxes cry the loudest? Hmmmm?


I see we are going off on a tangent here about taxes rather than the topic at hand.


Michael,
are you talking about Corporations? Please, let's leave no mystery or ambiguity to our posts. Speak plainly and clearly.

I'll assume you mean Corporations, but there are people out there that complain about paying taxes.

That's probably because they pay more? I don't know...

By paying more, they are shouldering the support of people that SHOULD be out working and paying taxes, such as welfare receipitants.

I think a flat tax should be the way to go. You pay x% of your income, period. BUT, problem with that is that who would want to go out there and earn more money when you have to pay whatever % in taxes? How does that spur job creation?

Individuals - the 2% who have 90% of the wealth and want the other 10%. Go back to the corporate tax thread. It specifically points out that no job creation occurred from it previously. If it didn't work then, it won't work now. I suppose you'd rather pay 10 times welfare for incarceration of folks who are denied a living wage through no fault of their own?
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:42 AM

2% have 90% of the wealth?

I don't know about you, but I'm not part of that 2%, nor do I know anyone who is, but I make a decent paycheck and I pay my taxes. If there are 2% of the population who has 90% of the wealth...well..so far it's not affecting me or anyone else I know. Money does NOT equal happiness.

Originally Posted By: MacBozo

Go back to the corporate tax thread. It specifically points out that no job creation occurred from it previously. If it didn't work then, it won't work now.


From it, I'm guessing corporate tax? Wait..I'm lost because you talk about individuals but then switch to corporations. I guess I better read that other thread even though, once again, I feel like we are going off topic.



Originally Posted By: MacBozo
I suppose you'd rather pay 10 times welfare for incarceration of folks who are denied a living wage through no fault of their own?


Uhm, how exactly are these folks denied a living wage?

And why would they be incarcerated?
Posted by: Jim_

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 05:16 AM

There seems to be discontent among blacks from a small real life sampling I've experienced. My job takes me to many different areas of town, and as a result I get to experience many different real life view points, not just what I read here or what I get through the media.

Not the only one, but the most recent situation, I went on a call the other day at a pawn shop, make as many good iMacs out of 9 non-functioning ones as possible, was able to get 2. It's in a part of town affectionately called Uzi Alley. Bars on the windows of the shops in the area, heavy steel doors. A nice elderly black gentleman owns the shop, but I worry going there even during the day, only park on the main drag, not in back, and make sure that I have left before dark. A white guy with a pony tail and laptop bag walking around there turns some heads. Since I don't carry it's really kind of unnerving, I do get stared at.

Two different friends of the owner that stopped by while I was there both expressed their disappointment with Obama, and what alternatives there may be the next election. He doesn't seem to be hitting his core supporters even.

Like I said I get around to a lot of different parts of town, and this isn't the first conversation I've heard recently along those lines.
Posted by: steveg

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 05:54 AM

Pardon me, John, but perhaps you need to re-read my comment. I said up front and in closing that my example was an oversimplification. And as such tax discontent becomes a far more general condition wherein taxes or just more taxes become one in the same. No quick assumptions and no misquotes. In fact, no quotes at all. And I did acknowledge that the real tax code we are burdened with is not acceptable. So take a chill pill. In fact, take two — they're small.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 06:05 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
But your objection to taxes in principle is equally over-simplified — even a tad sophomoric, I'm afraid.



You also said that. Which I never said I objected to taxes.

And if your post, which was condescending after all...you over simplifying the explanation of taxes...wasn't directed at me, then who was it for?

You respond to me, you mention me in your post, and then you even directed the last part towards me specifically.

So what was I to think?


Oh....you must be talking to Michael when you "dumb downed" the explanation of taxes in your post!
Posted by: steveg

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 06:43 AM

Good grief! Yes John, I responded to you. I addressed you. I mentioned you by name, because I was addressing your comments — not Michael's. So indeed, what were you to think? Why, that I responded to you. I addresses you. I mentioned you by name, because I was addressing your comments. Who'd a thunk?

So, do I take this as a "no thank you" for the popcorn?
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 07:31 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
I mentioned you by name, because I was addressing your comments.[/i] Who'd a thunk?


Which goes BACK to what I posted in response:
Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Steve,
when and where did I say that I object to taxes? Seriously...please show me. I DID say this:
Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
So...that's one example. But it shows that it goes from big corporations to the ordinary person out there...we don't like to pay taxes.


and this:
Originally Posted By: John Rougeux

Paying more taxes means less money in your bank. Less money means less able to purchase what you want or travel or whatever.


Now please, show me where I said I objected to taxes? I don't like to pay MORE, but nowhere does it say that I objected to paying ANY taxes.

So please do me a favor, READ my posts before making a quick assumption, it's a bit sophomoric, to quote someone who shall be unnamed.

I know how taxes work and I know how they are needed to keep a country running.


And perhaps you were talking about this single sentence you posted?

Originally Posted By: steveg
And as such tax discontent becomes a far more general condition wherein taxes or just more taxes become one in the same.


Can you dumb this down for me please? Because I surely do not want to misunderstand you.



Again, taxes weren't part of the original discussion, but it seems to have thrown it off on a tangent.

Just to be PERFECTLY clear, I have NO problems with taxes. I don't LIKE paying more, but obviously, if I have to, I have NO choice, unless I want to go to prison.

Michael threw in a link to his thread about corporations using off shore accounts to avoid taxes. That is how things went this direction. I guess when you can't argue the others, why not go with something you know?
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 07:46 AM

Quote:
I think a flat tax should be the way to go. You pay x% of your income, period. BUT, problem with that is that who would want to go out there and earn more money when you have to pay whatever % in taxes?


I'm baffled by the question. The answer is obvious... the more you earn, the more you have.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 07:55 AM

yeah, I know. I realized that after I posted.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: SgtBaxter

I'm baffled by the question. The answer is obvious... the more you earn, the more you have.


Wait...is that all that you wanted to ask regarding this whole thread, sarge?? heh
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 08:59 AM

Studies have shown John there were people like that. However the VAST majority of the failures were due to greedy lenders who'd approve a dead dog for a loan to get the fee. In addition, many of the "over-reachers" were misled by loan agents convincing them they could afford it... but the vast majority was down right fraud by some lenders who bundled the toxic loans and lied (committed fraud) on forms about clients credentials.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:11 AM

David,
where are you getting this information? I would like to see it. I don't have any proof on my end, just what seems like common sense.

Again, I still say a large portion (if not all) of the blame lays on the consumers shoulders. Yeah, the mortgage lenders may have lied, but come on! If you make $30,000, you can't afford a $200,000 house!! Simple math would tell you that. Heck, even a $100,000 house would stretch them more than likely.

If I walked into a Ferrari dealership today and they offered me a new 458 Italia, I should know that there is NO way I could afford the car payments!

When Amy & me bought this house in 2006, we had a set budget amount. No way were we going over it and we didn't. Our stupid realtor tried to get us up more in price, but sorry...we aren't stupid. Plus, we got a fixed rate mortgage because variable rates are REALLY stupid!

And if John Q Public out there doesn't know that, then they should do some research prior to buying.

Oh..but no, why do that when you could move into a $200,000 house with only $1500 (or less!) down!

Come on, that's just plain greed there and people living way beyond their means. Nobody forced them to sign bad bank loans. If they were misled, then they should have thought something was up if their yearly income couldn't cut it for payments. Simple math.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:16 AM

Quote:
Now, what I would like to know is how "happy" the citizens of their countries are...I don't know.


The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development says people in Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands are the most content with their lives. The three ranked first, second and third, respectively, in the OECD's rankings of "life satisfaction," or happiness.

There are myriad reasons, of course, for happiness: health, welfare, prosperity, leisure time, strong family, social connections and so on. But there is another common denominator among this group of happy people: taxes.

Northern Europeans pay some of the highest taxes in the world. Danes pay about two-thirds of their income in taxes. Why be so happy about that? It all comes down to what you get in return. ...

It may not just be taxes, of course, that lead to happiness. There are other factors to consider. But better social services and less worry about having to pay for things such as medical bills, retirement and education do help with the happiness factor.

Yet, we are so dead set against paying more taxes that it's even spawning nationwide protests. Tea party, anyone?

Maybe it's time that we looked at taxes differently. We have to pay them anyway. So they might as well make us happy. If Northern Europe is any benchmark, the more we'd pay the happier we just may be.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:20 AM

And here is the 80% quote.

Sweden – 7,7 points

This “welfare state” model is an excellent example of effective national taxes. Among other things the state provides universal tax-funded childcare, parental leave, health care, education (including university), retirement pensions and sick leave. Including value added tax (VAT – kind of like sales tax), it is possible to pay up to 80% of your income as taxes. Contrary to popular belief, Swedes are quite OK with their high taxes. After all it gives them tons of free and high quality services – what’s not to be happy about!
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:23 AM

And to answer your question about taxes in Canada

Federal tax rates for 2011 are:

* 15% on the first $41,544 of taxable income, +
* 22% on the next $41,544 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $41,544 and $83,088), +
* 26% on the next $45,712 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $83,088 and $128,800), +
* 29% of taxable income over $128,800.

An apparently we are the 8th happiest country in the world.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:28 AM

Quote:
Would you mind providing some examples of this? Which countries?




http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-happiest-places-on-earth-are-heavily-taxed

http://www.bankrate.com/financing/taxes/taxes-make-for-happy-citizens/

Lots more links if you Google it.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:37 AM

Thanks for the explanation. And with that, I totally understand now. Yeah, if I didn't have to worry about medical care or retirement, I would be all for increase in taxes.

What scares me is the people in charge of that stuff. Do you trust them with your money? Not sure I would heh

We need Micmister's opinion in here since he lives in Finland, right?
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:38 AM

Yeah, I typically google stuff but was lazy on that. Thanks.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:39 AM

So we got taxes figured out. Raise it up and pay for the majority of services out there.


Now, what about the rest of what this topic is about? No other input from anyone else?
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:44 AM

Quote:
What scares me is the people in charge of that stuff. Do you trust them with your money? Not sure I would heh

Well, I would suggest if these countries are happy they are not "scared". If the people in charge are meeting most of your needs, then yes, they are trustworthy.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:46 AM

I wasn't talking about there, sorry. I meant here as in the US. KY alone is in bad shape! I wouldn't trust my state to manage tax money, so not sure about federal. heh

Yeah, I know..they don't do a BAD job at it. laugh
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:51 AM

Quote:
I wouldn't trust my state to manage tax money, so not sure about federal.

Well, therein lies a fundamental problem. Perhaps the reluctance to pay more taxes in the U.S. revolves around trust.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:59 AM

Well, all you have to do is look at each state.

I'm sure it's not as bad as I typed it, and I hate looking like some paranoid kook. heh

The problem I see is trying to implement it. Whoa boy...people are used to what we have and trying to change it would be scary for them. But I don't see that happening any time soon.


Anyway, on to other topics that I brought up in here.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 10:08 AM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Anyway, on to other topics that I brought up in here.
This thread has veered off course, the original question was about Obama, but if it didn't veer off it wouldn't be our beloved forums. grin
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 10:16 AM

Obama won a platform of change. So even though it may be have been "scary for them" people wanted something other than status quo.
More Americans are in favour of health care than opposed to it and many wanted more than what was implemented.

The long and short of it is, we all want to be happy, healthy and taken care of. And government has a role to play in making this happen for its citizens.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 10:21 AM

Well sure people wanted change. And that's what I'm asking in my original post.

Are those who voted for him and exclaimed him the next big change here in the US happy?

I don't see any change here, but that's just me. That's why I asked.

Part of me wonders about this "taken care of" part. Sure, retirement and medical costs would be nice not to have to worry about it. But there is only so much I would want to government to "take care of" for me.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 10:36 AM

Taken care of = social services, education, health care, infrastructure, fire, police, retirement = responsible government.
As previously stated, we cannot barter this stuff for a chicken.
We pay taxes and trust the government to administer the programs appropriately. Indeed, it can always be done better, but not doing it, is a crime.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 10:44 AM

We're like MicroSoft now... too big, unstructured, lumbering and unable to extricate ourselves from any quagmire. Every time a question is asked... 23 parties have to be involved.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 10:48 AM

Exactly NG4. That's what I was trying to say but didn't know exactly how.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 11:17 AM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
We're like MicroSoft now... too big, unstructured, lumbering and unable to extricate ourselves from any quagmire. Every time a question is asked... 23 parties have to be involved.

I agree with the quagmire example. And because of that very little gets done. It does, however, keep politicians in a job.

As far as I can tell the GOP is always claiming government is too big. Why don't they/didn't they do something about it?

The only thing I see that they really care about is abortion, gay rights, god, immigration and no taxes for the wealthy.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 11:17 AM

Oh yeah, I forgot the latest one-union busting.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 11:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Leslie

As far as I can tell the GOP is always claiming government is too big. Why don't they/didn't they do something about it?



Same reason democrats didn't do what they promised.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 11:32 AM

I agree they are both guilty.
Some are more guilty than others.
smile
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 11:43 AM

Yeah, I know...damn democrats. :P
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 11:44 AM

laugh
Posted by: steveg

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 12:36 PM

You're mixing apples and oranges. The Democrats have failed (for now) to fulfill certain campaign promises. The Republicans have totally contradicted theirs. They campaigned on jobs, the economy, jobs, the deficit, and jobs. And of course smaller, less intrusive government.

So far, they have voted to repeal the healthcare law (symbolically), which the CBO says will kill jobs and add to the deficit; de-fund NPR, which has nothing to do with job creation and is barely a pimple on the budget; de-fund Planned Parenthood, which will create no jobs, will deny cancer screening, and deny family planning and counseling services resulting in thousands of unwanted pregnancies; and speaking of unwanted pregnancies, they want to make abortion as inaccessible as possible — even in cases of rape and incest (government so small it will creep into the uterus of every woman in this country). That's on top of an agenda to crush unions (because they are a strong fundraising resource for Dems) and to further enrich the rich at the expense of the fading middle class and the poor.

No, John, to not fulfill a promise is disappointing. Very disappointing. But what the Republicans are doing is about as close to fraud as it gets. So the real question should be, So how's that trumped-up mandate thing working out for you Repubs?
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 01:04 PM

Get your own thread. laugh My original topic was about Obama, not about anyone else.

If you want to talk about republicans in congress/senate, start your own topic.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 01:17 PM

Quote:
If you want to talk about republicans in congress/senate, start your own topic.


John you are a little testy today.

Posted by: steveg

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 01:17 PM

If you were playing dodge-ball, you'd be covered in red welts! eek
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 01:30 PM

Well, seriously.

I know the republicans didn't hold up to their own, but since when do ANY politician do that?

My point about this thread was how when Obama got elected, it was like the next savior came waltzing in. Oh, how things were going to change, yes we can, and all that.

But what has changed? Nothing. 2 years later, the republicans got voted in. Nothings changed still.

Let me ask you this...with how Obama ran his campaign based on promises and how he can do this and that...what do you think the chances of another democrat getting elected this coming election year? Or do you think Obama will run again? (I know he will)
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 01:31 PM

I heard there was a short supply of people who lean to the right in these here woods, so I decided to meander down here. wink
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 02:40 PM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Uhm, how exactly are these folks denied a living wage?

And why would they be incarcerated?
No financial support = vagrancy and felonies.

EDIT: Also this: 15 Mind-Blowing Facts About Wealth And Inequality In America

We're extremely top heavy and getting worse. How's that for redistribution of wealth for you?
Posted by: steveg

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 02:47 PM

Nothing has changed? Tally up the legislation passed thus far under the Obama admin. More than under any president in decades. Sure, there are things as of yet not done — much of which can be attributed to idealism and campaign promises running headlong into reality.

I've had my beefs with Obama, too. But considering what Bush left under the desk in the Oval Office, I'd say he's done pretty well.

I'm sure he'll run for re-election, and if the party runs on it's accomplishments from 2008 to 2010, he'll likely win. Especially if voters compare Republican/Tea Party pre and post mid-term election behavior and politics.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 03:04 PM

Quote:
Oh, how things were going to change, yes we can, and all that.


Didn't you hear? Obamas 2012 campaign slogan will be....

No, we didn't!!

I don't think it was so much Obama being a Saviour , per se..
It was more like a funky green man from mars would have got the same reception... so would a primate.... or a science lab paramecium with an Intel chip brain..
Whatever.



As long as it wasn't BUSH
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
As long as it wasn't BUSH


And not McLame and the idiot.
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 04:45 PM

Quote:
Oh..but no, why do that when you could move into a $200,000 house with only $1500 (or less!) down!

so who changed the rules? The Banks don't have to do squat - they can loan to whoever they like. Many brokers got greedy for the fees and wrote sloppy loans- that banks got greedy and accepted them. No one held a gun to their heads either. the Banks are supposed to be the frugal, smart ones... true many people bought more than they could afford- but WHO approved them? . . . and in many cases cheered them on ?
Human nature doesn't change - so why did this happen in the last 10 years ? Banking / mortgage company greed. All the reason NOT to bail them out directly... but the way they did they got the $$ AND the house ! . . .thanks to GW dumbazz.
Posted by: katlpablo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/23/11 09:56 PM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
My point about this thread was how when Obama got elected, it was like the next savior came waltzing in. Oh, how things were going to change, yes we can, and all that.

But what has changed? Nothing. 2 years later, the republicans got voted in. Nothings changed still.
I have no voting right, i'm not democratic nor republican. I'm not happy about Obama's performance, and i'm not gloating at his failures.

To me Obama has failed my expectations since he got elected. I find him worse every day. He's a pretty bad president, in my opinion. At this rate, he can still catch-up with Bush in the next six years and beat him as the Worst President in US History —and that's not an easy thing to achieve!

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Let me ask you this...with how Obama ran his campaign based on promises and how he can do this and that...what do you think the chances of another democrat getting elected this coming election year? Or do you think Obama will run again? (I know he will)
I think Obama has very good chances to get elected again. I think he will.

Big Business likes him, Wall Street loves him, the Republicans are breathless at how well Obama has turned out to be for them. The Democrats think that he is their man! [Think again!]

The people that financed his presidential bid are happy: Obama has done right for them and is only half way through his term… Obama and his team have put a/the Cherry at the top of the Bush years with the bailouts and now!, he will deliver them with another military intervention (as if two weren't enough!) to keep the military industrial complex well oiled. He may even get to go to war with Iran! The dream of the GOP!

The people, the unions, democracy, the planet, are burst.

I don't think Barak Obama, the First Black President in the United States history, will look very good in History not even with his Nobel Peace Prize.

IMO
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 10:55 AM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Again, I still say a large portion (if not all) of the blame lays on the consumers shoulders. Yeah, the mortgage lenders may have lied, but come on! If you make $30,000, you can't afford a $200,000 house!! Simple math would tell you that. Heck, even a $100,000 house would stretch them more than likely.


The rule for housebuying typically was 3 years salary I believe? Now we have a problem, in that during the housing boom, where I'd normally see billboards around my area for "Houses from the 120's, or 200's" - suddenly all the billboards were for the same exact houses, only the billboards read from the 300's, from the mid 300's, from the low 400's. Houses around me went from that $120K value to $350K in a few scant years. That's idiotic, unrealistic and unsustainable as we've all witnessed. It took my parents house 35 years to accrue that kind of value.

So in effect people who are making average salaries - the bulk of the country - aren't supposed to buy houses anymore? Something's not right there. I don't live in a mansion. I live in an ordinary small house any average Joe should be able to easily afford. To suddenly say someone who makes my salary (or even less) should instead expect to live in a much smaller house (mine is pretty cramped with 3 people and a big dog) or an apartment instead is a complete failure of the United States as a society.

The entire housing finance industry needs to be razed to the grown and started over. There's nothing magical about purchasing a house, nor should there be. It's just money. No selling debt between companies BS. We've all heard plenty of horror stories about the problems this causes, it needs to stop.

If the economy is really to thrive there needs to be 4 basic things.

1. People need decent wages, and steady reliable employment. Not everyone is a manager or business owner, nor should they be expected to be to survive.
2. Housing needs to be affordable, and pricing stable. Average Joe making $40K a year needs to be able to buy a house without spending his entire salary on it.
3. Transportation needs to be affordable and prices stable. This means cars, fuel, and public transportation.
4. Food needs to be affordable and prices stable.
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 11:03 AM

So according to the Obamameter you linked to,

134 Promises kept, 40 kept with compromise, 219 in the works - that's 393 out of 500 and only 40 broken.

The 70 stalled ones we'll have to wait and see. I don't see how that's so terribly screwed up. Still, even if the stalled ones go nowhere nearly 400 out of 500 isn't all that bad, is it?

Yeah, I'd have liked to seen Gitmo closed immediately. I'd have liked to see him slip on some comfortable shoes and show up in Wisconsin. That would have kicked ass.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 11:09 AM

Originally Posted By: SgtBaxter
Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Again, I still say a large portion (if not all) of the blame lays on the consumers shoulders. Yeah, the mortgage lenders may have lied, but come on! If you make $30,000, you can't afford a $200,000 house!! Simple math would tell you that. Heck, even a $100,000 house would stretch them more than likely.


The rule for housebuying typically was 3 years salary I believe? Now we have a problem, in that during the housing boom, where I'd normally see billboards around my area for "Houses from the 120's, or 200's" - suddenly all the billboards were for the same exact houses, only the billboards read from the 300's, from the mid 300's, from the low 400's. Houses around me went from that $120K value to $350K in a few scant years. That's idiotic, unrealistic and unsustainable as we've all witnessed. It took my parents house 35 years to accrue that kind of value.

So in effect people who are making average salaries - the bulk of the country - aren't supposed to buy houses anymore? Something's not right there. I don't live in a mansion. I live in an ordinary small house any average Joe should be able to easily afford. To suddenly say someone who makes my salary (or even less) should instead expect to live in a much smaller house (mine is pretty cramped with 3 people and a big dog) or an apartment instead is a complete failure of the United States as a society.

The entire housing finance industry needs to be razed to the grown and started over. There's nothing magical about purchasing a house, nor should there be. It's just money. No selling debt between companies BS. We've all heard plenty of horror stories about the problems this causes, it needs to stop.

If the economy is really to thrive there needs to be 4 basic things.

1. People need decent wages, and steady reliable employment. Not everyone is a manager or business owner, nor should they be expected to be to survive.
2. Housing needs to be affordable, and pricing stable. Average Joe making $40K a year needs to be able to buy a house without spending his entire salary on it.
3. Transportation needs to be affordable and prices stable. This means cars, fuel, and public transportation.
4. Food needs to be affordable and prices stable.


Yes! Real estate values were way overvalued, and that began in 2005-6 which caused a near collapse in new construction. This didn't all happen overnight in 2008.
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 11:17 AM

You're right and Neither did the repeal of Glass-Segal which was pushed by the GOP and signed by Clinton (stupid move).

EVEN with GS repealed, NO one made them accept less credentials for loans than they had before, but "American Greed" pushed some to do so like a giant ponzi scheme... in 2008 the walls crashed.

So some dumb consumers share blame. but it was the mortgage, real estate , and banking industries that muster the large majority. They did it to themselves by abandoning their traditional "proven" business practices and "going rogue" ! smile
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 01:30 PM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
Yes! Real estate values were and still are way $@&#ing overvalued, and that began in 2005-6 which caused a near collapse in new construction. This didn't all happen overnight in 2008.


FTFY!
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 01:36 PM

Originally Posted By: SgtBaxter
Originally Posted By: MacBozo
Yes! Real estate values were and still are way $@&#ing overvalued, and that began in 2005-6 which caused a near collapse in new construction. This didn't all happen overnight in 2008.


FTFY!


LOL! Are you putting words in my mouth?
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 03:35 PM

SO to conclude in this question about Obama satisfaction . .

I AM Disappointed in many things- Gitmo, Iraq, Afghanistan.. yielding too much to the right wingers and GOP filibusters...

BUT

no matter how disappointed I am, and he's not all I wanted - he's 100X better than GW, and Cheney, !! (Dumb-Dick)

Posted by: Lea

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 05:08 PM


I wasn't crazy about ODude when he was in the primaries, I voted for him because the alternative was beyond scary, and I'm not real surprised at his ineffectiveness. I wanted Hillary, not because I liked her, but because she was totally qualified for the job. Obama's been learning on the job since he hit the Oval.

I have to admit being slack jawed at some of his appointments early on. By now? I''m used to it. The man made a lot of promises, as politicians will. But he didn't even try to follow through on the biggies. I'm just glad I was never involved in all the ObamaRama worship that was going around. I should probably feel sorry for the peeps that are still lookin' for the stars that fell outta their eyes. I don't.
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/24/11 05:59 PM

Well I like him a little more than you, but I agree, I hope Hillary becomes the first woman President... if for no other reason is to watch Rush's and Beck's heads explode. laugh

but seriously she has enormous experience and in a fight, I think she'd castrate neuter some of the right wing-nutz like Newt, Boehner, Cantor, McConnell, etc ! wink
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/25/11 07:34 AM

Quote:
but I was wondering how Obama was doing as president?


With what he was given and what he's had to contend with in the form of a Loyal Opposition, I'd say he's doing rather well, actually. The first two years represented an incredibly productive legislative session, including the first major overhaul of the Healthcare system in decades, which in and of itself is a huge accomplishment. What he and the Dems are able to accomplish in the next year or so remains to be seen ...

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be outraged that he didn't accomplish 100% of what he said he wanted to do on the campaign trail -- no president has ever done that and it's foolish to expect one to ... Am I disappointed in some of his decisions? Of course. And frankly, I expect to be disappointed by future decisions, because shockingly he's not making decisions with *me* in mind but what he thinks best for the country as a whole ...

I'm just happy that there's a calm, educated, smart person in that position in the face of incredible challenges to this nation, many, many of which don't have pretty or satisfying solutions. If there is a credible opponent come 2012 with similar smarts and disposition I'll definitely take a look and hopefully have a tough decision to make concerning my vote. Thus far, I'm sorry to say, that hasn't been a worry ;-)

So yeah, overall pretty satisfied. He's not my ideal, but then I wasn't expecting him to be ;-)
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/25/11 07:47 AM

Originally Posted By: six_of_one
Quote:
but I was wondering how Obama was doing as president?


With what he was given and what he's had to contend with in the form of a Loyal Opposition, I'd say he's doing rather well, actually. The first two years represented an incredibly productive legislative session, including the first major overhaul of the Healthcare system in decades, which in and of itself is a huge accomplishment. What he and the Dems are able to accomplish in the next year or so remains to be seen ...

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be outraged that he didn't accomplish 100% of what he said he wanted to do on the campaign trail -- no president has ever done that and it's foolish to expect one to ... Am I disappointed in some of his decisions? Of course. And frankly, I expect to be disappointed by future decisions, because shockingly he's not making decisions with *me* in mind but what he thinks best for the country as a whole ...

I'm just happy that there's a calm, educated, smart person in that position in the face of incredible challenges to this nation, many, many of which don't have pretty or satisfying solutions. If there is a credible opponent come 2012 with similar smarts and disposition I'll definitely take a look and hopefully have a tough decision to make concerning my vote. Thus far, I'm sorry to say, that hasn't been a worry ;-)

So yeah, overall pretty satisfied. He's not my ideal, but then I wasn't expecting him to be ;-)


The restoration of international respect and trust rather than disdain is monumental.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/25/11 08:56 AM

Quote:
The restoration of international respect and trust rather than disdain is monumental.



The fact that the whole world applauded his election says something... if no more than saying something about the previous administration.
Posted by: steveg

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/25/11 10:08 AM

Well of course the rest of the world applauded him. After all, he ain't really a 'Merican, ya know. eek
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/25/11 11:26 AM

Hey... some of my best Presidents are black....
Posted by: newkojak

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/26/11 12:05 PM

Too busy teaching and cleaning up the mess that our Education Secretary left in Chicago. wink
Posted by: newkojak

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 03/26/11 12:31 PM

I agree mostly.

Some of the issues like Guantanamo ran into a political impossibility when they hit Congress. In Illinois, we even saw Sen. Durbin reverse himself on the issue of sending terrorism suspects to the Thompson Correctional Facility.

Despite that, I think that Eric Holder was a good pick and he is making some progress in undoing the mess of extra-Constitutional nonsense that the Bush Administration tried to pass off as executive power.

Iraq and Afghanistan... I guess we're getting out albeit slowly and not leaving pristine countries behind. I think the situation in Iraq is better now than when Obama became president and Afghanistan is... I don't know enough about it.

Education is the one that I'm most concerned about and I really hate the non-solutions that the administration (and all of the billionaire interest groups) has backed. If they showed results, I would reverse my opinion in a hot minute, but charter schools and the "turnaround" models they push DO NOT WORK. (Sorry for the yelling.) Arnie Duncan showed no results in Chicago and he'll show no results at the national level if he doesn't do a little damage.

Health care was okay... didn't go far enough but they did what they could to get what they did.

Financial reform... what financial reform? Congress sold us out on that one and the President let it happen. I just got a slew of 0% card offers because I took out another student loan for grad school. I didn't get any offers when I was reducing my debt load. That's irresponsible and shows that the banks are still squeezing money out of people who can't afford it.

Otherwise, the guy's been a good executive and that's what we need. I have my problems, but who doesn't?
Posted by: iBookmaster

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/03/11 05:37 PM

In the end, we had 2 choices....Obama or McCain. Obama is doing ok but not as much as we'd all like. Who know what McCain would have done. Of the 2 choices, I think we made the right one. Obama said a few months ago it is still "yes, we can" but not all at once.

Just think if we had voted McCain in. We'd have Palin as our vice president "shakin' things in Washington up"!!!
Posted by: newkojak

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/03/11 06:11 PM

That is certainly true. Given the reckless way that McCain ran his campaign, he would have been the third to last person on Earth that I would have wanted on the helm during the economic collapse.

I have never wanted to vote for the least bad guy. I'm not there with Obama right now and I certainly don't regret voting or making calls for the guy. We'll see what happens when the economy picks up. I think that right now the Republicans are able to take shots without proposing any realistic alternatives because they simply don't have to. So long as they can take advantage of people's frustration over the economy, they can simply sit back and continue to prioritize their political goals over policy goals.

I think we will learn a whole lot about all of this this summer.
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 03:46 AM

EXACTLY, iBook & New...

Where's their Jobs plan ??

Where's their health care plan ?

Where's ANY plan from them except cut, cut, cut ?

That doesn't create jobs or solve problems... just makes them WORSE !! mad

Bunch of Rasputins, they are ! laugh

Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 04:03 AM

Like Dave said in his post the GOP Party just bitches constantly and does nothing important to try to establish some kind of plan they have at all. There is no one decent running so far in 2012 I see. Bohener is afraid of his party completely and wants to adhere to the Democrats budget policy which is all right.He is no leader so to speak of in my opinion.Obama is to much leaning to the center and not enough to the left.His personality shows this and his policies also.I am curious to see what will transpire in the fall.
Posted by: iBookmaster

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 06:35 AM

Originally Posted By: DLC


Where's ANY plan from them except cut, cut, cut ?

That doesn't create jobs or solve problems... just makes them WORSE !! mad




They think cutting taxes is going to make people spend more. It might but not enough to bring the economy back. They think cutting programs is going to balance the budget. The programs they cut are peanuts compared to what needs to be cut. It's like taking a penny out of a dollar budget and cutting programs only ends up hurting people. Taxing the higher income people is a good start. Warren Buffet said in an interview that he's been begging the government to tax people like him more.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 08:49 AM

Originally Posted By: iBookmaster
Originally Posted By: DLC


Where's ANY plan from them except cut, cut, cut ?

That doesn't create jobs or solve problems... just makes them WORSE !! mad




They think cutting taxes is going to make people spend more. It might but not enough to bring the economy back. They think cutting programs is going to balance the budget. The programs they cut are peanuts compared to what needs to be cut. It's like taking a penny out of a dollar budget and cutting programs only ends up hurting people. Taxing the higher income people is a good start. Warren Buffet said in an interview that he's been begging the government to tax people like him more.


Giving tax breaks to the wealthiest people has never created a job. It has fattened their bank accounts, though.

The Republicans always claim credit when things go well, even when they had absolutely nothing to do with it. If things are going badly, it's always the Dem's fault no matter what.

President Obama even incorporated policies that the Republicans had proposed and endorsed, but when Obama actually tried to implement them, they were suddenly against them. crazy
Posted by: iBookmaster

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 09:47 AM

MacBozo, the last part of what you just said is sickening. It makes politics look so corrupt. It makes me not want to vote for anybody. It's like we vote for the person that is the least corrupt.
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: iBookmaster
MacBozo, the last part of what you just said is sickening. It makes politics look so corrupt. It makes me not want to vote for anybody. It's like we vote for the person that is the least corrupt.


BINGO !! . . . give that man a Corona !
(not talking beer or sunspots ) laugh
Posted by: newkojak

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 02:29 PM

That's what I meant about the GOP prioritizing political goals over policy goals. I am certain that there was a time when the Democratic Party did the exact same thing, but right now, the Republicans are not about governing at all, but power for power's sake.

I'm afraid that it is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better. In terms of government policy, what I want personally is a vigorous competition between solutions from the two parties where there is room for independent voices and the best ideas win out in compromise. What I see now though is a Democratic Party that does its best to hold a coalition together by covering all of the bases liberal and conservative (poorly) and a Republican Party that is unserious at best about doing anything that might just turn off a bunch of idiots on Social Security and Medicare who complain about creeping socialism.

Edit: I know that last bit seems harsh, but these are the kinds of caricatures that are the life blood of our politics today. Everyone here and everyone I know is caught in the middle of this mess.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 04:06 PM

Quote:
what I want personally is a vigorous competition between solutions from the two parties where there is room for independent voices and the best ideas win out in compromise.


Cough cough.. hack hack...wheeze. Pop!

I almost fainted... from laughter.

I think you're describing a Democracy.
Posted by: carp

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
Quote:
what I want personally is a vigorous competition between solutions from the two parties where there is room for independent voices and the best ideas win out in compromise.


Cough cough.. hack hack...wheeze. Pop!

I almost fainted... from laughter.

I think you're describing a Democracy.


I don't think it is a democracy - it is a dumb arse 2 party system that we have.
After all , all they do is agree to disagree between the Dems and GOP based solely upon party mantra.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 06:15 PM

Originally Posted By: carp
Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
Quote:
what I want personally is a vigorous competition between solutions from the two parties where there is room for independent voices and the best ideas win out in compromise.


Cough cough.. hack hack...wheeze. Pop!

I almost fainted... from laughter.

I think you're describing a Democracy.


I don't think it is a democracy - it is a dumb arse 2 party system that we have.
After all , all they do is agree to disagree between the Dems and GOP based solely upon party mantra.


I think dogma is the word you want.

Actually, most dems are trying to work like a democracy. The republicans have adopted the idea that they want the "democracy" that Saddam had in Iraq. Remember, "You're either with us, or against us?" They believe that they are the only rightful rulers of the USA. They are always right and everyone else is always wrong in their mindset.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 08:45 PM

Quote:
I don't think it is a democracy - it is a dumb arse 2 party system that we have.
After all , all they do is agree to disagree between the Dems and GOP based solely upon party mantra.

The U.S. isn't a democracy.. it's a Republic.
Remember..."and to the republic for which it stands"

We are a Democracy only in an ill-defined way that is a far cry from the wishes of the Framers of the Constitution and this is the problem with ahhhh....forget it... I'm not going to get drawn into another head -slamming-against-the-wall debate with you. They are pointless.


I was making a joke.....
Posted by: newkojak

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/04/11 09:51 PM

I want a lot of things, Nuke. wink
Posted by: katlpablo

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 02:02 AM

Originally Posted By: jerryfox3
Like Dave said in his post the GOP Party just bitches constantly and does nothing important to try to establish some kind of plan they have at all. There is no one decent running so far in 2012 I see.
I agree.

Originally Posted By: jerryfox3
I am curious to see what will transpire in the fall.
Yeas, i wonder if Obama will need a primary. He already said he's running again. Maybe he'll need at least one challenger to keep his name and candidacy visible while the Republicans fight it out in theirs [primary, i mean].

smile

No other Democratic candidate has emerged yet, right?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 02:34 AM

I'm still struggling with a few of his policies... for example 'all military trials at Guantanamo must stop but can carry on' and 'Israel must stop occupying Palestinian land but can carry on occupying it' - they're a bit confusing.

km
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 04:24 AM

What is a Republic in your opinion?
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 04:25 AM

KM Stop with Israel already!
Posted by: keymaker

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 04:37 AM

No.

km
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 05:52 AM

Quote:
for example 'all military trials at Guantanamo must stop but can carry on'

Well, he's President, not dictator. He tried to move the Guantanamo detainees to the US and have them tried in civilian courts but was pretty resoundingly shot-down by Congress, which does, after all, have a say in such things. So his policy was one thing, he wasn't able to implement it, so now it's another policy adapted to that reality =)

Quote:
and 'Israel must stop occupying Palestinian land but can carry on occupying it'

I'm unaware of a policy endorsing Israeli occupation or settlements thereon, although I will agree there's still way too much of a geopolitical "Israel can do no wrong" mindset as far as things like US vetoes in the UN go. Regardless, I imagine Obama's inability to dictate Israeli policy largely stems from the fact he's not in charge of their government ;-)


If you're looking for confusing Obama policy, I'd suggest one of the more disappointing to me: his refusal to even consult Congress much less get its Constitutionally-mandated approval before committing the US to conflict in Lybia. That assumes Executive power beyond even Bush-era levels, which is saying something.

Neither am I a big fan of Obama's failure to even investigate, much less prosecute, possible war crimes in the form of torture sanctioned by members of the previous administration -- which to me sends a terrible message that, yes, some people are above the law even when they appear to violate it in front of the world.

I have a longer list, but don't get me wrong, I still support Obama because despite these disagreements I have with him, he's done a lot of good which in my mind outweighs the bad -- and he's still far and away the best choice of the options we appear to have at this point ...
Posted by: iBookmaster

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 06:19 AM

The United States is not Isreal so, that needs to be taken up with Isreal's leaders, not us. There are 3 things that could make Obama the greatest president ever.

1) End the wars.
2) Get our economy strong again.
3) Get unemployment back to 5% or less.

I have a tea party friend of mine on Facebook named William Thomas Healy. I have argued a lot with him on facebook. He says that our current unemployment numbers don't factor in the people who have given up looking for a job. I'm sure he gets that info from a website somewhere. I say the numbers are what they are because that's what has been used forever in unemployment figures. I mention this guy's name because he thinks Obama hates our country and spews all kind of crap. Along with some decent ideas from time to time if you want to look him up and argue with him on facebook.

Just yesterday he posted that he just got an email from Obama that he's running for president again. He said he can't wait to vote him out. Not even knowing who will be running against him.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 06:24 AM

Originally Posted By: jerryfox3
What is a Republic in your opinion?


Why? What does it matter what my opinion of a Republic is?

From Wiki/United States/.... the very first line.

United States of America (also referred to as the United States, the U.S., the USA, or America) is a federal constitutional republic comprising fifty states and a federal district.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 06:25 AM

Disclaimer: I am a registered Dem.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 07:31 AM

Indeed those policies also seem confusing frown ... so are you saying that Obama was constrained by Congress in vetoing our decision to condemn the settlements? There we were all thinking he had joined the Likud party and scratching our heads trying to work out how he could believe his endorsement of such flagrant contraventions of international law to be in US interests.

km
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 12:30 PM

Quote:
so are you saying that Obama was constrained by Congress in vetoing our decision to condemn the settlements?


Nope -- fortunately Congress isn't Constitutionally empowered to conduct foreign policy. You can thank the absurdly influential pro-Israel lobbies in this country and the US' historical blind support of that country for the shameless vetoes the US keeps finding itself making on Israel's behalf ...
Posted by: carp

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 01:16 PM

I agree with much of what you said.

his refusal to even consult Congress much less get its Constitutionally-mandated approval before committing the US to conflict in Lybia. That assumes Executive power beyond even Bush-era levels, which is saying something.

My understanding is that it is an executive order - no need for congress at all. Also it is called a Humanitarian Mission mandated by the UN - > its not a conflict.

A talking head brought up a good point on this matter - Only WWII had congress vote to go to war.

Vietnam, Korea, Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, Panama all were executive order. Congress was only needed to vote on the funding.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 01:37 PM

Quote:
My understanding is that it is an executive order

It was... but in the great big whole wide world he's on his own with no apparent benefit. cry

km
Posted by: carp

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 01:52 PM

I have argued a lot with him on facebook. He says that our current unemployment numbers don't factor in the people who have given up looking for a job. I'm sure he gets that info from a website somewhere.

Your friend is 100% correct - Also the UI figures only count (first time filers) I been on UI twice, this means I was only counted once. The UI figures don't take into account for new jobs that are supposed to be created each month somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 - Also the UI figures does not count (first time job seekers) such as the hundreds of thousands of college students who graduate and cannot find jobs, this goes the same for people who graduated from high school and are to looking for work.

Simply Those UI figure are only from people who had a job and filed for benefits the first time <-- Thats it. So really the true number is really much much higher.
Posted by: carp

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 01:57 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
My understanding is that it is an executive order

It was... but in the great big whole wide world he's on his own with no apparent benefit. cry

km


I would not say that Obama is on his own - The UN was behind it and the Arab League made the plea for help, not to mention that NATO is in command. Not to mention that their are 2 Arab countries, that have planes in the air enforcing the no fly zones.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 03:15 PM

Quote:
My understanding is that it is an executive order - no need for congress at all.

An executive order does not trump the Constitution, which gives the power to engage in a war to the Legislative branch, not the Executive ...

Quote:
Also it is called a Humanitarian Mission mandated by the UN - > its not a conflict.

It's American forces engaged in combat, and the UN doesn't trump the US Constitution either ...

Quote:
A talking head brought up a good point on this matter - Only WWII had congress vote to go to war.

Unless he was talking specifically about a formal declaration of war, the talking head is wrong.

Vietnam, both Iraq wars, and Afghanistan were all authorized by Congress (although it later revoked the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which Nixon ignored, which is why the questionable War Powers Resolution came about) ... Panama was a limited-duration engagement which fell under the War Powers Resolution (ditto actions such as Grenada) and thus didn't require specific Congressional approval. The only extended military engagement not explicitly authorized by Congress was Korea, although many at the time deemed authorization implicit in the fact that Congress continued to fund the war. Such interpretations of "implicit authorizations" have since been specifically invalidated by language in the War Powers Resolution ...

The whole point of the Constitution requiring Congressional approval is so the Executive can't engage US forces in a war on his own whim -- he needs the approval of the people as represented by Congress. I'm not sure Obama even gave Congress the 48-hour notice required by the War Powers Resolution much less seek actual Congressional approval. At best Obama's entry into this conflict is highly, highly questionable; at worst it's outright unconstitutional.
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 03:51 PM

Originally Posted By: six_of_one
The whole point of the Constitution requiring Congressional approval is so the Executive can't engage US forces in a war on his own whim -- he needs the approval of the people as represented by Congress.

Oh you mean like GW's vindetta against Saddam ?? whistle
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 04:10 PM

Quote:
Oh you mean like GW's vindetta against Saddam ??

Well, he asked for Congressional approval and got it -- so I guess the vendetta belonged to all of us collectively. Ain't democracy a b!tch? =P
Posted by: carp

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 05:13 PM

An executive order does not trump the Constitution, which gives the power to engage in a war to the Legislative branch, not the Executive ...

Apparently your wrong laugh Like I said it has been going on for a long long while - right or wrong thats the way it is.

Maybe your confused by the congress having to vote - Really they are only voting on the funding of the WAR - they are NOT voting on giving permission for the WH to go into war.

Keep in mind (wording) the Korean incursion was called (Police Action) it was not called a WAR <-- maybe thats it ?

It's American forces engaged in combat, and the UN doesn't trump the US Constitution either ...

They were not engaged in combat - they were enforcing a UN mandate, with the invitation of the Arab League. Besides WHAT combat? ? No, NATO plane was in any dog fight that I know of.

Unless he was talking specifically about a formal declaration of war, the talking head is wrong.

Exactly and that takes congress to declare a war.
Executive order is to help out our so called friends, in their time of needs.

The whole point of the Constitution requiring Congressional approval is so the Executive can't engage US forces in a war on his own whim

Your using that term of WAR again - Keep in mind these colorful terms - Police Action, Humanitarian Aid, Recuse Mission, yada yada <-- the word WAR is never injected.

Also
The war on terrorist and the war on drugs all have already been approved by congress decades before.

Simply
The president can give executive orders to provide, humanitarian, policing, protection, evacuation, yada yada - everything short of a declaration of war.
Posted by: DLC

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 05:56 PM

I know Sixer... just rattling your cage !! laugh

and it is a Btch !! wink
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/05/11 10:19 PM

Quote:
Apparently your wrong Like I said it has been going on for a long long while

Um ... no. The only other instance of an action not having explicit Congressional approval outside the War Powers Resolution is the Korean War. That's hardly "going on for a long long time."

Quote:
Maybe your confused by the congress having to vote - Really they are only voting on the funding of the WAR - they are NOT voting on giving permission for the WH to go into war.

Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11:

"The Congress shall have Power (Clause 1) ... To declare War (Clause 11)" -- Seriously, "funding"??

Quote:
Keep in mind (wording) the Korean incursion was called (Police Action) it was not called a WAR <-- maybe thats it ?

Are you really contenting that as long as the Executive uses any other word aside from the specific word "war" to describe an engagement it has complete license to do anything it wants with the military? Really?

Quote:
Besides WHAT combat? ? No, NATO plane was in any dog fight that I know of.


ugh. If launching TLAMs and dropping bombs and wiping out entire tank columns isn't combat,what is?

Quote:
Your using that term of WAR again - Keep in mind these colorful terms - Police Action, Humanitarian Aid, Recuse Mission, yada yada <-- the word WAR is never injected.


Double ugh. See above. You *really* believe the Executive is at liberty to throw around the US military at will unless it slips and utters that single word? Is that what the Constitution really says?


Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/06/11 04:04 AM

I thought the official term regarding Libia was "Kinetic Action"
Posted by: carp

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/06/11 03:19 PM

Um ... no. The only other instance of an action not having explicit Congressional approval outside the War Powers Resolution is the Korean War. That's hardly "going on for a long long time."

I still disagree - Sorry I don't have a link to provide on that talking head video. CNN has a way to go and do a search on their archive files extremely difficult.

"The Congress shall have Power (Clause 1) ... To declare War (Clause 11)" -- Seriously, "funding"??

Clause 11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Theres that word (WAR) again - Keep in mind we are not at WAR with Libya or with any other country outside of WWII.

Not to mention the Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water - the US had no intention of capturing land and or water, during any of those conflicts I mentioned.

ugh. If launching TLAMs and dropping bombs and wiping out entire tank columns isn't combat,what is?

They are calling it (Humanitarian) those tanks were shelling civilians.

A term for combat

Combat in warfare involves two or more opposing military organizations, usually fighting for nations at war (although guerrilla warfare and suppression of insurgencies can fall outside this definition)

Depends on how you want to politically color your wording.

Double ugh. See above. You *really* believe the Executive is at liberty to throw around the US military at will unless it slips and utters that single word? Is that what the Constitution really says?

Keep in mind that the State Department and the Joint Chiefs of Staff all come under the executive branch.

Only the WWII, WAR on Terror , WAR on Drugs, where congress voted. Every incursions since where just Police Actions and only needed congress votes on funding.

Its all there in your link.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/06/11 03:27 PM

Muahahahahha...


Just thought I would throw that in....
Posted by: carp

Re: So how's Obama working out for you dems? - 04/06/11 03:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Llewelyn
I thought the official term regarding Libia was "Kinetic Action"


It is call Humanitarian Aid - the word Kinetic only describes a motion of an action.

At the start of the civilian protest - Quadaffy used helicopter gunships and fighter jets, to strafe protesters/killing them = Hence the No-Fly Zones, asked by the Arab League and later mandated by the UN.