Drill Baby Drill !!

Posted by: DLC

Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 05:38 PM

Man this is now as bad as the Valdez and getting worse.

Platform Disaster

200,000 gallons per day and it may take weeks or months to stop.
Heard that they could have prevented it using a $500,000 acoustic shut off valve (no details how it works, but its almost fail safe.) Every country in the world requires these but we don't. mmm

Some talk of the Cheney -Energy Chiefs secret meeting in 2001 and the lack of regulations the last 8 years. Who knows- waiting until the facts shake out. But the W VA coal mine disaster reeks of lack of oversight or just down right look the other way. Is this another ?

Besides the environmental impact what about the economic disaster to tourism and fisheries in the gulf ? I never liked Obama's allowing more drilling, bad mistake... we need to be shifting from oil - hydrocarbon based energy to clean - green, renewable energy ASAP !!

Let the "Cat fights" begin !! wink
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 05:45 PM

I can't agree more. We need to set a definitive goal to be completely energy independent by the end of this decade, like JFK's man on the moon goal in the 60s. Make it a national defense priority and create tons of new jobs in the process.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 05:49 PM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
I can't agree more. We need to set a definitive goal to be completely energy independent by the end of this decade, like JFK's man on the moon goal in the 60s. Make it a national defense priority and create tons of new jobs in the process.


MacBozo for President !! laugh
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 05:55 PM


It REALLY REALLY (REALLY REALLY) SUX
that money that COULD HAVE GONE to
exactly THAT will now be thrown at
the MASSIVE Clean-Up Instead. frown

I hear Obama is ALREADY Re-Thinking
the BS about Off-Shore Drilling to
placate the "Drill-Baby-Drill" crowd.

Kinda' closing the barn door after the
fact though.. know wot I mean? frown
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 06:08 PM

You mean the barn door that had no walls around it ?

laugh

yep really sucks, it does !

another example of letting the business guys run amuk ... yes the initial disaster could have been unpredictable,... but having poor or no effective safe guards is inexcusable, one knows disasters are going to happen from time to time. Like driving wo seat belts.
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 06:17 PM


Robert Kennedy Files Lawsuit Against BP Oil

Read the article
because it outlines the extent of the disaster
(yes... DISASTER) frown
Posted by: MikeSellers

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 07:34 PM

One of my Facebook friends is implying that Obama was behind the explosion. I'm surprised it took this long to start the conspiracy theories.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 07:47 PM

LOL! But that's just too stoopid to be funny.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 08:06 PM

Well Rush's explanation is that environmentalists did it, to stop the drilling !! shocked

so which psycho story is the best ? laugh

it's a tough choice for me !


Posted by: Jim_

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 09:02 PM

Originally Posted By: MikeSellers
One of my Facebook friends is implying that Obama was behind the explosion. I'm surprised it took this long to start the conspiracy theories.
Well yeah, that was my first thought.

Actually my take is that he had nothing to do with it, but that someone didn't like his support of drilling and tried to make a point. I read it on the internet, it's true.

smirk
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 09:05 PM

Originally Posted By: DLC
Well Rush's explanation is that environmentalists did it, to stop the drilling !! shocked
It has to be true then. Must be where the internet I saw got it from. grin
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 04/30/10 09:19 PM

Just saw this.

Seems he is going as planned but is calling for stricter regulations.

"Speaking at the White House, the president said he had ordered Interior Secretary Ken Salazar "to conduct a thorough review of this incident and report back to me in 30 days on what, if any, additional precautions and technologies should be required to prevent accidents like this from happening again."
"We're going to make sure that any leases going forward have those safeguards," he said.
"
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/01/10 05:09 AM

At least you are honest with your thoughts not like the other politicians tell you and nothing happens after that.Pure promises which amounts to beans.J
Posted by: carp

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/01/10 03:37 PM

I agree Dave

However I don't think throwing more money at alternative energy is the answer either .

Consider;
That we already have research in Algae fuels and Hydrogen extracted from water - so throwing more money at it does NOT necessarily make the scientist work any faster , it just makes them richer . What is needed is a stumbling mistake laugh like how most great inventions are discovered .

Anyway , in the mean time Oil is all we got , so Drill Baby Drill , until another alternative is developed

As for the oil rig , I have not done any research on its age or what tech level it was at before this incident . However New Rigs that are built today are much much more high tech then ones built from just 10 years ago .

More Regulations = Like throwing more money at Research ? equals what net value ?

I am not in the oil industry , however in the construction industry I can say that the one thing that is above all else is to avoid any and all incidents or accidents of any kind . All it takes is just one and the gig is up . Regulations are not going to make it any safer at all , just adds more Red Tape .

I have not heard anything about what cause the explosion ? and I don't think they hire anyone who smokes either
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/01/10 06:58 PM

You can't get off the oil unless you develop alternatives.. it doesn't happen spontaneously. wink

and it's not just for us .. we can sell the technology! . . more economic benefits.

and regulations are necessary... wonder why we have so few plane crashes ?
regulations and procedures...

before regulations, accidents like the WVa mine disaster was a regular thing... now it happens much, much less frequent. I agree some are red tape, but most DO serve a useful purpose. .. . many save lives.
Posted by: carp

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/02/10 11:55 AM

You can't get off the oil unless you develop alternatives.. it doesn't happen spontaneously.

Exactly and thats why I said we are stuck with oil until then .

I think some country other then the US will make the next alternative first , not because of money but rather necessity

and regulations are necessary... wonder why we have so few plane crashes ?
regulations and procedures...


Well we still have plane crashes and exploding oil rigs - you can throw as many regs at anything , accidents will still happen so long as there is still humans and machinery in the mix .

We need to know what cause the blast ?
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/02/10 06:13 PM

Quote:
I think some country other then the US will make the next alternative first , not because of money but rather necessity.


they already have Steve, Brazil is totally off oil... they started when we should have- the 70's !!

can you beat that a 2nd rate country economically and they beat us ! What does that say about us ? There's lots to point fingers at including the American people for not being prudent and facing the changes... many were lazy... set in their big gas guzzling ways. But I think a huge chunk goes to Reagan and Bush 1 who killed the energy programs started under Carter... Carter saw the future... and our unwise dependency on oil but people like the Bushes who sleep with Saudi Kings wouldn't have that. mad
Posted by: carp

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/02/10 06:17 PM

Quote:
What does that say about us ?


Simply that the US is very Over Regulated to begin with
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/02/10 06:30 PM

Originally Posted By: carp
Quote:
What does that say about us ?


Simply that the US is very Over Regulated to begin with


I seriously doubt any regulations would have stopped alternative fuel research, solar, wind, or geothermal research... that's just a lousy excuse by some.

Take away regulations and see how regular mine, oil rig, air plane, etc disasters become... weekly occurrences instead of every 5 -10 years... too many businessmen will cut corners and risk lives to make an extra dime !!

Most regulations come from disasters because of the above ... trying to avoid repeats.
Read Sinclair's The Jungle... sure fiction but based on facts of how companies were run in the early 1900s. No regulations we return to that BS.
My sister and brother worked for Iowa Beef in the 1970s and still many accidents because of production quotas. Most of them not hugely serious but with no regs, instead of cuts needing stitches, it could have been lives.

We have it too good Steve, we never had to live through that crap... and 48 hr weeks, slave like labor, and barely enough salary to live on (food shelter, clothes).. workmen fought (some died) so we could have it better.. don't ever forget we benefit greatly from their sacrifices.
Posted by: carp

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/02/10 06:46 PM

Quote:
I seriously doubt any regulations would have stopped alternative fuel research, solar, wind, or geothermal research...


No in this case;
Means a regulation on how you spend the money and how safe are your experiments - which is a good thing to keep it safe but also adds cost .

Over regulating the Oil Industry would not have prevented this latest explosion at all - but certainly would create more (red tape) expense thats past down to consumers .

Sure we can Regulate that a person wears a additional Hard Hat over the one that they are already wearing - but what good is that <-- I am saying this as more regulations .

Keep in mind that;
1 - State regulations
2 - Federal Regulations
3 - Coast Guard Regulations <-- since the rig is off shore
4 - BP own company Regulations - which should match or exceed everyone else's - to even get a permit to even drill off shore .

Hey
Shiiiit happens no matter how tight you sew ya arse - throwing more regulations mean nothing but more expenses that is past down
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/04/10 08:43 AM

There probably were a series of failures by all parties involved in the operation of that well and platform. Safety regulations and fail safe measures do need to be strengthened as a result of this disaster. Keep in mind, most all safety inspections are conducted internally by the lessee, the owner, and sub-contractors. Third party (government, etc) inspections are few and far between.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/04/10 11:15 AM

At least we know whose fault it is after Obama blamed BP... so that's cleared that up then.

km
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/04/10 02:50 PM

I've heard several commentators and lawyers say BP has a poor safety record, always cutting corners... we'll see if that was the cause.

It's like if you never have your car serviced and it breaks down, whose fault is it ? parts do wear and regular maintenance is required... some say BP pushed the limits.

Again, we'll see what the answers are.

I do think the big lesson is the US needs to force the installation of acoustic cut off valves on ALL offshore rigs like most other nations require. A $500K valve could save billions.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/04/10 03:18 PM

In my opinion members of the executive should not pre-judge what may fall to be determined by the judicial process ... as I understand it BP believe that the fault lies with sub-contractors.

km
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/04/10 05:54 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
In my opinion members of the executive should not pre-judge what may fall to be determined by the judicial process ... as I understand it BP believe that the fault lies with sub-contractors.
km



... and who hires the sub-contractors ? whistle
(probably low bid yahoos ) wink


it's Spill Baby Spill right now !
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/04/10 08:40 PM

Yeah. Blame it on sub-contractors who were following corporate guidelines.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/05/10 11:11 AM

Yeah good point - I was blaming BP...

they hire the subcontractors and they set the work... and the atmosphere it's performed under (safety in mind - or just 'git er done' and don't worry about anything else -production, production, production !!!)

I really think they need a Corporate Management Responsibility Act. If you're an owner, a CEO or top manager of a company and the company causes damages to others and you knew the shortcomings, you can go to jail ! . . screw this "OK you step down and take your golden parachute (millions) with you "... IF some of these cluster-Fcks had to serve time for their crappy business decisions, some might think twice. . . even if they didn't heed the law, at least there'd be better justice.
Posted by: carp

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/06/10 12:29 AM

Yes , sorta

BP if ordered the work , via under contract - they are 100% responsible for the work done.

BP if ordered by the Government , to do the work would require , government inspectors . At more times than as is normal .

Like I mentioned before - Corporate - does not want a single incident , simply it cost them big money
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/06/10 08:48 AM

Originally Posted By: carp
Yes , sorta

BP if ordered the work , via under contract - they are 100% responsible for the work done.

Like I mentioned before - Corporate - does not want a single incident , simply it cost them big money


so why don't they do what's right instead of what's "cheap" ! wink

goes for the coal mines too !!
Posted by: Lea

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/06/10 10:33 AM


In my opinion members of the executive should not pre-judge what may fall to be determined by the judicial process ... as I understand it BP believe that the fault lies with sub-contractors.


Not the first time they've tried to pass on the blame. BP's safety record is horrendous. The 2005 blowout at Texas City is a perfect example. Do you remember that one? Fifteen dead, close to 200 injured. We personally know families that were hurt by that one. I've lifted the highlights from Wiki ~


Legal action

On February 4, 2008, U.S. District Judge Lee Rosenthal heard arguments regarding BP's offer to plead guilty to a federal environmental crime with a US$50 million fine. At the hearing, blast victims and their relatives objected to the plea, calling the proposed fine "trivial." So far, BP has said it has paid more than US$1.6 billion to compensate victims.[1] The judge gave no timetable on when she would make a final ruling.[2]

On October 30, 2009 the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) imposed an $87 million fine on the company for failing to correct safety hazards revealed in the 2005 explosion. The fine was the largest in OSHA's history, and BP announced that it would challenge the fine.[3]


Subsequent incidents

After the March explosion, other safety incidents occurred at the plant including three major safety incidents in 2005:

On 28-Jul-2005, a hydrogen gas heat exchanger pipe on the Resid Hydrotreater Unit ruptured, causing a release of hydrogen that erupted into a large fireball. One person received minor injuries. The Chemical Safety Board found that a contractor had accidentally switched a carbon steel pipe elbow with a low alloy steel elbow during maintenance, causing a failure mode known as “High Temperature Hydrogen Attack” (HTHA).

The CSB found that BP had not informed the maintenance contractor that the elbows were different, the maintenance contractor had not used any procedure (such as tagging) to ensure that the elbows were re-installed into their original locations.

On August 10, 2005, there was an incident in a Gas-Oil Hydrotreater that resulted in a community order to shelter. This incident occurred when a hole developed in the bottom of a valve that handles high pressure gas and oil.

On January 14, 2008, William Joseph Gracia, 56, a veteran BP operations supervisor, died following head injuries sustained as workers prepared to place in service a water filtration vessel at the refinery's ultracracker unit.[4]



I don't have time to serach beyond the 2005 Texas City blowout, and I don't expect that you'll bother. If the company weren't British Petroleum, I'm sure you'd insist that the powers in charge pay dearly. But it's not, so you won't.




Posted by: steveg

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/06/10 10:42 AM

Oh, but of course we must not ever cast aspersions on those lofty Enterprises of the Empire. Heaven forbid!

If I subcontract out a portion of a project, and said sub-contractor's work is not up to my client's or my standards, the responsibility is mine. That's the way the client sees it, and that's why it's up to me to manage said subcontractor closely. The buck stops with me, and in the case of this mess, the buck (or Pound) stops with BP. Period.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/06/10 04:46 PM

Sure, Steve, but these are all American subcontractors using illegal aliens imported from Arizona. Whaddayaspect?
Posted by: carp

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/06/10 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By: DLC
Originally Posted By: carp
Yes , sorta

BP if ordered the work , via under contract - they are 100% responsible for the work done.

Like I mentioned before - Corporate - does not want a single incident , simply it cost them big money


so why don't they do what's right instead of what's "cheap" ! wink

goes for the coal mines too !!


Theres no such thing as whats Right ? ? by whose standards is whats right ? ?

The problem I see it is that when stuff like this happens people always turn to the government and say <-- Why you did not do enough laugh

Simply I bet that the government does not have a single (Oil Engineer) any where - Someone who can engineer a product or create one and say you must use this . Thats never gonna happen . Regulations are merely a type of behavioral controls , they never get specific .

For example;
Specifications - we call it a spec book and believe me it is a Book <-- this is only where you would see a specification to use only a certain product or equal or greater . Keep in mind you only see this when working on a State or Federal project where the government would dictate what product to use . Regulations is not the vehicle for such specifications but rather make such statements like (Operating value must be safe and secure)

Simply;
If BP was working on Federal Land or State Land then they must follow their entities specifications <--- BP was not in this case , since it was a completely private adventure and only had to follow the states and Feds broad regulations
Posted by: carp

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/06/10 11:41 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
Sure, Steve, but these are all American subcontractors using illegal aliens imported from Arizona. Whaddayaspect?


LOL

Keep in mind that the oil rig was on the Illegal side of that very expensive fence , that kept no illegals out from entering AZ laugh
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/07/10 03:44 AM

Quote:
Theres no such thing as whats Right ? ? by whose standards is whats right ? ?


yes there is Steve, it's what works (proven over time).

My dad was in construction, (tilesetter) everyone knew how to do the job right so it'd last 50 years, but some cut corners so tile started falling off or joints cracked in 5 - 10 years... every trade knows what's right and what's "Cheap" and half done !! You know that, you're in construction too- you can't tell me you don't know shoddy work from good work.

BP is known for cutting corners and putting safety 4th or 5th on the list.

BTW- the Govt does have engineers... and if they don't have some handy for a need - they contract them. Funny the rest of the world requires the better acoustic shut off valves - we don't. Now we know why ! Not rocket science. The solution was already there, we just didn't require it. No need to engineer anything. wink
Posted by: steveg

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/07/10 03:44 AM

I knew that. I could tell just be looking at there shoes. shocked
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/07/10 10:03 AM

Quote:
Simply;
If BP was working on Federal Land or State Land then they must follow their entities specifications <--- BP was not in this case , since it was a completely private adventure and only had to follow the states and Feds broad regulations


Wait, are you saying the oil platform was in privately-owned waters and not on a federal lease?

I'll have to check on this ;-)
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/07/10 10:13 AM

Territorial waters extend out only 12 nautical miles, but something called "exclusive economic zone" extends for 200 nautical miles. Wiki defines that zone as follows: "A coastal nation has control of all economic resources within its exclusive economic zone, including fishing, mining, oil exploration, and any pollution of those resources. However, it cannot prohibit passage or loitering above, on, or under the surface of the sea that is in compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by the coastal State in accordance with the provisions of the UN Convention, within that portion of its exclusive economic zone beyond its territorial sea." A third element is the rights extended to the edge of the continental shelf, although to no more than 350 nautical miles beyond the shoreline when the continental shelf goes beyond that limit. Submission of notice of such claim extends the same rights as for the 200-mile limit out to the edge of the continental shelf or to 350 nautical miles, whichever is less.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/07/10 10:58 AM

On a different not I think it'd be fascinating to pull the minutes and records of the Cheney energy meetings in March 2001. Was safety, and oil company liability discussed ? What kind of back room deals were made ?
sick
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Drill Baby Drill !! - 05/07/10 12:53 PM

It was a government lease - block 252 in the Mississippi Canyon zone. BP was given a "categorical exclusion" from environmental guidelines, according to the WaPo ...

Your government at work =P