Choice of trials...

Posted by: keymaker

Choice of trials... - 09/15/09 02:00 PM

Judge Goldstone who lead the UN inquiry into the Gaza offensive in January this year has given Israel 6 months to bring suspects to justice for wilful killing and other grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention or have them face prosecution at the International Criminal Court for war crimes and crimes against humanity. His report finds that up to 1417 Palestinian civilians were murdered in the onslaught but also cites uncorroborated claims that 3 Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinian rocket fire as well as 10 Israeli soldiers including 4 killed by themselves in friendly fire incidents.

km
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/15/09 02:58 PM



'Evidently'

Breaking silence on Gaza abuses

Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/15/09 03:12 PM

Well you can spin this any which way

Quote:
A United Nations report issued Tuesday says both Israel and the Palestinians committed actions amounting to war crimes during Israel's military incursion into Gaza


Keep in mind that Hamas started this by lobbing rockets into Israel <-- simply they started the fight and paid dearly for it

Keep in mind that Israel was defending it self , the use of words like "offensive" are totally in correct and reflects stupidity or at the lease bias in reporting the truth - incursion and defense is the what really happened

also

Israel did bring this onto themselves by their continued oppression

So if you wanna cut the blame game , I give it a 50 / 50 both sides are at fault
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/15/09 03:22 PM


In your haste to put your OWN spin on it
I think you responded to the wrong post.

Mine was the one where the Israeli soldiers
have already admitted to the war crimes. smile
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/15/09 03:27 PM

Was not really pointed at you or even KM

Just trying to keep it in focus that BOTH sides are responsible their crimes , nothing is more stupid as thinking it was one side only - and some reporting agencies poor use of wording gets my goat laugh
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/15/09 05:20 PM


No worries smile

We all have pet peeves
mine is people who overlook
that people are being egged into
reacting then killed when they do.

The systematic use of starvation and
carefully contrived collective punishment
that elicits random bottle-rocket type lobbing
leading to entire regions being ethnically cleansed.

To defend such action you must agree with what's being done.

Posted by: katlpablo

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 01:05 AM

frown cry wink

Every time Israeli war crimes come into comment or discussion you feel you need to "keep in focus" that both sides are responsible, that's your standard 'knee-jerk' uncommitted response on this.

We all know it, —even you must be tired of mentioning it already—, the judge Goldstone confirms so according to the article submitted by keymaker, the article's title confirms it again: "UN Gaza report accuses Israel and Hamas of war crimes"; Quote: "The report was critical of Palestinian armed groups, saying their rocket fire did not distinguish between civilian and military targets in Israel, caused terror among civilians and amounted to war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.".

You want to keep us 'focused' while you don't even want to understand what the article —maybe you haven't even read it— is about.

Because, read please: the article, according to its subtitle, is about the fact that the "[i]nquiry into [the] Gaza conflict singles out Israeli policy towards Palestinians for most serious condemnation". There are Crimes and Crimes, and there are "the most serious" condemnations to policy.


So now…
i'll make up a dream in which, for once, i could read you tell us that what you are also focusing on is the allegations of Israel's disproportionate use of violence (during its offensive against Gaza in January 2009), of its "direct and intentional attack[s]" on civilians, and, of all sort of petty-minded war crimes, much larger in quantity, much more vile in quality, and much deadlier than the home-craft made rockets with which Hamas allegedly 'kicks-the-crap-out-of', 'explodes' and terrorises Israel.…
But that's just dreaming. sleep sleep sleep

Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 04:22 AM


Truth be told;
I used to fall for it too.
I used to think it was their own dam fault
for firing missiles into settlements "Wot IDIOTS!"
and "When will they ever learn?" and when they were
bombed in return, "Who cares?" ...but when it continued
beyond all logic & reason, I questioned "Why the hell do it?"

That's when I started paying closer attention...
and that's when I realized THAT WAS WHY THEY WERE DOING IT
It was TRYING To Call the WORLD'S ATTENTION to what was happening.

"OK, so now you've gotten my attention........so?"

Once I started watching... reading THE DAY-To-DAY Articles
it was easy to spot the pattern of low level abuse on the Israeli
side... punctuated by violent responses..and over-the-top
high powered attacks by Israel using state-of-the-art weapons.

Within days I'd see some jerk fire yet another homemade rocket.

I'd think "..they must be NUTZ!!!" but I'd read about closed
borders, and people barred from hospitals.. and vineyards...
then vineyards & orchards of hundred year old family farms
bulldozed out of spite. WTF?

That's when I realized this was more than spiteful, it was a
"Crime Against Humanity!" so I watched closer... and the more
I watched the more egregious it became... Land that had been
in the family literally for GENERATIONS stolen.. the families
pushed into barbed wired refugee camps........

And right in sight of the squalid corrugated tin roofed huts,
there was gorgeous modern apartment complexes being built on
what was once their land just the other side of the barbed wire

mmm there's something very wrong here.....

"Jeebis! Even I would fire missiles at them if I had one..."

Then just when I was wondering why no one else was seeing this;

Another missile would be "lobbed" but this time I understood.
Then would come the heavy handed response... 100s killed
and I started wondering WHY NO ONE ELSE WAS SEEING THIS!?!?

Worse yet I finally saw the coordinated pattern of abuse,
to elicit the response leading to the ethnic cleansing played
out time and again...

Then the Recent War on Lebanon and the crushing of the infrastructure,
then the denial of wrong-doing, and the "they made us do it"
justification to the world (even as proof of clusterbombs and
white phosphorus used against civilian populations, emerged)

While most people are intimidated by being tagged as AntiSemitic
for daring to say anything about it... reflexively "Turning
the Blind Eye" to this Train-Wreck in Slow-Motion, others feel
beholden to cry out against the injustice no matter the cost.


so now I sat through the GAZA "WAR"
..and a week ago learned about the OTHER (ANOTHER) War on Lebanon
when researching the Twin Towers/ bin Laden connection...

so there's even a pattern to the pattern LOL WTF?

and still carp carps on about "BOTH SIDES"

So Nobel Peace Prize winner Pres. Jimmy Carter has been painted
with the Anti-Semite Brush (in spite of the FACT that BOTH
SIDES ARE SEMITES, btw) and the Present President seems to
be following close on his heels- DARING to demand that the
Internationally Condemned Settlement building (and land grab)
Cease IMMEDIATELY! ((gee.. anybody following all this??))

And the Monster responsible for bringing down the Twin Towers
(..er.. the ones in Lebanon) has cut a deal with HILARY
that they would consider a TEMPORARY cessation of building...
IN RETURN FOR "CRUSHING SANCTIONS Being Imposed Upon IRAN"

Anyone following all this? you really ought to, you know... smile

because now Israel (and by extension AIPAC) is POed at Obama
and beginning to back The RELIGIOUS RIGHT (Sista' Sarah and
the End-of-Worlder Rapture-LOONIES) & changing their tactics
to MAKE THE COMING CONFLICT INTO A RELIGIOUS (WORLD) WAR

Because as we've been taught since birth: "God Is On Their Side"
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of Choices... - 09/16/09 06:19 AM


Obama's Middle East speech in full

Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: Choice of Choices... - 09/16/09 06:33 AM

I spent a lot of timie in Israel when I was a kid (we actually emigrated there in '66 but bailed out after 6 months - cosseted middle-class English jewish parents meets tough young hot country etc.) but I stopped going back to visit after my last trip in '79 when I could feel a palpable difference in the country. It was trying to be European, and the arabs living in Israel were being treated like sh!t even then. I've got a sad little Israeli book from the 70's with 'subversive' political cartoons about the State of Israel, reminding folk even then that the original '48 constitution said 'we will not treat arabs as second-class citizens'.

Many Israelis are not behind this warmongering, but fear breeds aggression. MY parents' older Israeli friends totally bought into the crap they were being fed about 'the arab' in just the same way many folk in the US buy the scarefest the news feeds them about 'the black man'. I pointed out to my mum's friends back in 2000 a very well-documented report about a Palestinian family being arrested for 'using a beach' in Israel (a beach where I played as a kid), and she just got angry and told me point-blank it was liberal propagandist lying.

So actually, Israel is in some ways like a little Mini-Me of (some of) the US.

I think. The parallels seem obvious.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 08:32 AM

If you're tired of Carp always responding with the fact that both sides are committing atrocities, imagine how tired some of us are with threads focusing pretty much exclusively on demonizing just the one side of the conflict.

Israel is committing terrible atrocities upon the Palestinians, and I actually hope Israel refuses to hold internal investigations on this report so the the World Court could come into play -- I'd love to see the entire leadership brought up on charges and convicted if found guilty ...

Shockingly, I have the very same hopes for those committing atrocities on the Palestinian side ...

I gather from your post that last bit is something you'd not be interested in hearing. But hey, if your dream is to read only one point of view ...
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 08:39 AM

Quote:
imagine how tired some of us are with... demonizing just the one side of the conflict.

I don't think he was doing that - he was suggesting that the blame was 50 / 50 although that obviously didn't bear much resemblance to the civilian fatality statistics of 1417 / 3.

Quote:
I actually hope Israel refuses to hold internal investigations...

Sorry to disappoint you but they've already held their internal investigations and prosecuted a soldier for credit card theft.

km
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 09:38 AM


I'm not particularly partial to "either 'SIDE'"
The only dog I have in this fight is the Earth
itself.
I'm afraid I'm a "Globalist" on the most basic
level there is.. pro Earth & its flora & fauna.

This BS shoving match is drawing everyone else
into the fray.. putting us ALL at risk .. and
squandering precious time and resources that
could be better utilized elsewhere to make life
better for all concerned in a sustainable future.

It no longer Matters 'Who Did What To Whom & When"
...just knock it off! Put an end to the squabbling.

Like Obama sez: "The Time for GAMES has Ended!"
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 09:45 AM

Quote:
I'm not particularly partial to "either 'SIDE'"

I am... I'm partial to the side being unlawfully stripped of their property wink.

km


Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 10:08 AM



LOL

I was reminded of the old 1940's Cartoon that depicted
a picnic invaded by red & black ants. In the face of
these enormous mountains of food an epic battle ensued..
..eventually ending in an armistice:

They'd finally shook hands & agreed to divide the last
layer cake ..but then went right back to slaughtering
each other when they couldn't decide who got the cherry.
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 10:20 AM


Well, yeah..
and I agree...

...but Someone needs to drawn the line in the sand. wink

but like the cherry
someone will always covet
what the other guy got that
couldn't be divided (WATER RIGHTS)

It just sukked that they couldn't just share the
resources in peace the way they'd done for generations.



Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 10:29 AM

Quote:
someone will always covet what the other guy got

That's why we have law, of course, to determine what someone can covet free of charge, but can't have... whistle

km
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 11:05 AM


lol
and then there are liberal liberals
(such as myself)
that are just as content to kill'em all
and let the god of their choice sort them out.

Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 11:13 AM

Quote:
then there are liberal liberals (such as myself) that are just as content to kill'em all

Oh yeah, equality of treatment doesn't favour the wrongdoer in any way ... sleep

km
Posted by: Celandine

Guess you've already seen this - 09/16/09 12:38 PM


Benjamin Netanyahu:
Israel wants 'crippling sanctions' against Iran



Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 12:46 PM

I wish you would read my post instead of knee jerking and making wild accusations

KM likes to point out that Hamas has the right to kill anyone

Read Six of Ones post says it best
Posted by: Celandine

Doano about this? - 09/16/09 12:46 PM


Israel threatens Lebanon and Obama

Obama is sending shockwaves through the pro-Israel lobby community,
if not for his actions then his reluctance to tow the traditional
Zionist line, writes Franklin Lamb from South Lebanon

Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 12:52 PM

Quote:
I don't think he was doing that - he was suggesting that the blame was 50 / 50 although that obviously didn't bear much resemblance to the civilian fatality statistics of 1417 / 3.


Does not matter if it was 50,000 / 1 - The fact is war crime was committed we are talking about the crime it self , not the numbers

Hence the 50 /50 both sides share the blame
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 12:55 PM

Quote:
KM likes to point out that Hamas has the right to kill anyone

I've never said that... a person is only allowed to kill in lawful self-defence or in defence of real property.

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 01:00 PM

Quote:
That's when I started paying closer attention...
and that's when I realized THAT WAS WHY THEY WERE DOING IT
It was TRYING To Call the WORLD'S ATTENTION to what was happening.


This is the kind of thinking that gets Gaza is so much trouble

There are many ways to get the Worlds Attention - lobbing rockets will only bring more deaths . Like what we all just seen , did it do anything ? ? Sure it has gotten all the wrong attention thats for sure

As I mentioned before Israel must lift its oppression and stop the settlements - Hamas must say that Israel has the right to exist <- the latter must come first
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 01:02 PM

You said it many times in other threads , the excuse you use is occupation
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 01:17 PM

Quote:
Does not matter if it was 50,000 / 1

Yeah, it matters - excessive use of force is prohibited by customary international law.

Quote:
we are talking about the crime it self , not the numbers

I was taking about the crime and the numbers.

Quote:
Hence the 50 /50 both sides share the blame

You mean 1417 / 3 both sides share the blame, right?

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 02:24 PM

Your missing the point it is about the crimes not the numbers

Murder is murder be it 1 or 50,000

The number only matters during prosecution such as Israel has 1417 counts against them and Hamas has 3 counts against them

Still murder is murder which is the crime - Now to prove that all the 1417 were deaths that can be directly attributed to Israel as well as the 3 from Hamas . Which the investigation should provide and it is another reason the numbers maybe be very inaccurate which would disprove the allegation of excessive force .
Posted by: katlpablo

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/16/09 10:43 PM

All wrongdoing on both sides should be chastised.

The subtitle of the article is very clear on the alleged findings on the assault on Gaza on January this year, and it remains published in the same words:

"Inquiry into Gaza conflict singles out Israeli policy towards Palestinians for most serious condemnation".
[emphasis by katlpablo]
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 03:55 AM

Quote:
All wrongdoing on both sides should be chastised.


Okay then, many of you are chastising Israel for "the most serious condemnation." Carp is chastising Hamas for the alleged war crimes it has committed.

What's the problem, again?



Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 06:37 AM

Quote:
many of you are chastising Israel for "the most serious condemnation." Carp is chastising Hamas for the alleged war crimes it has committed. What's the problem, again?

His suggestion that blame is equally divided when it's not. grin

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 01:37 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
many of you are chastising Israel for "the most serious condemnation." Carp is chastising Hamas for the alleged war crimes it has committed. What's the problem, again?

His suggestion that blame is equally divided when it's not. grin

km


The blame is equal they both committed a crime

Again 3 murders does NOT make you better in anyway then someone who killed 1417
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 02:02 PM

Quote:
The blame is equal they both committed a crime

No I don't agree with that... for example the rounding up and deliberate killing of civilians including women and children is a more serious offence than driving through a red traffic light.

Quote:
Again 3 murders does NOT make you better in anyway then someone who killed 1417

Well, the deliberate killing of civilians in defence of expropriated land makes you worse in several ways to anyone firing rockets onto their own territory as a protest at the lack of legal solutions. What you call '3 murders' is an anecdotal uncorroborated story that couldn't possibly form the basis of a prosecution at the ICC.

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 03:18 PM

Quote:
No I don't agree with that... for example the rounding up and deliberate killing of civilians including women and children is a more serious offence than driving through a red traffic light.


This is were your wrong again

Hamas WAS deliberately targeting civilians when they were lobbing rockets at no military targets even remotely near by . Shows intent to target civilians even if they only managed to murder 3 , it could have been in the hundreds or even thousands - Hence why I keep saying the numbers means nothing it is the crime that matters both sides committed crime of murder
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 03:58 PM

Quote:
Hamas WAS deliberately targeting civilians

That's not what Judge Goldstone found, no...

Quote:
Shows intent to target civilians

No, that's not a natural inference.

Quote:
even if they only managed to murder 3

Well, that's uncorroborated.

Quote:
it could have been in the hundreds or even thousands

Sounds a bit improbable... more likely to have been none.

Quote:
numbers means nothing

I don't agree with that - numbers mean a lot when assessing war crimes.

km
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 04:00 PM

Quote:
Well, the deliberate killing of civilians in defence of expropriated land makes you worse in several ways to anyone firing rockets onto their own territory as a protest at the lack of legal solutions.


I would grant you that the bloodthirsty Israeli zealots are showing the bloodthirsty Palestinain zealots how things are done in the bloodthirsty zealot business. I think Carp's point is they are both equally guilty of simply being bloodthirsty zealots in the first place ...


Quote:
What you call '3 murders' is an anecdotal uncorroborated story that couldn't possibly form the basis of a prosecution at the ICC.

... as well as pertaining to your later reply to Carp:

From the Commission's findings:

"A/HRC/12/48
page 462


1681. Between 18 June 2008 and 31 July 2009, there were four fatalities in Israel as a consequence of rocket and mortar fire from Gaza, of which there were three civilian and one military casualties.

1682. On 27 December 2008, Beber Vaknin, 58 years of age, of Netivot was killed when a rocket fired from Gaza hit an apartment building in Netivot.

1683. On 29 December 2008, Hani al-Mahdi, 27 years of age, of Aroar, a Bedouin settlement in the Negev, was killed when a Grad-type missile fired from Gaza exploded at a construction site in Ashkelon. On the same day, in a separate incident, Irit Sheetrit, 39 years of age, was killed and several wounded when a Grad rocket exploded in the centre of Ashdod. The al-Qassam Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack."

[...]


As well as:

"A/HRC/12/48
page 473


[...]

1721. From the facts it ascertained, the Mission finds that the Palestinian armed groups have failed in their duty to protect and respect civilians. Even though the al-Qassam Brigades and other armed groups in Gaza have recently claimed that they do not intend to harm civilians, the fact that they continue to launch rockets at populated areas without any definite military targets and are aware of the consequences to civilians indicates an intent to target civilians. Furthermore, the launching of unguided rockets and mortars breaches the fundamental principle of distinction: an attack must distinguish between military and civilian targets. Where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into civilian areas, they constitute a deliberate attack against the civilian population.

1722. Given the apparent inability of the Palestinian armed groups to aim rockets and mortars at specific targets and, the fact that the attacks have caused very little damage to Israeli military assets, it is plausible that one of the primary purposes of these continued attacks is to spread terror – prohibited under international humanitarian law -among the civilian population of southern Israel.

1723. The above view is supported by public statements of the armed groups, such as that made by Hamas on 5 November 2008. Following an Israeli raid in Gaza1061 which resulted in the death of five Hamas militants1062, a Hamas spokesman stated “The Israelis began this tension and they must pay an expensive price… They cannot leave us drowning in blood while they sleep soundly in their beds”.1063 As noted in Chapter XVI, reprisal attacks cannot be carried out against a civilian population.

1724. From the facts available, the Mission finds that the rocket and mortars attacks, launched by Palestinian armed groups in Gaza, have caused terror in the affected communities of southern Israel and in Israel as a whole. Furthermore, it is the Mission’s view that the mortars and rockets

[color=gray][Footnotes]

A/HRC/12/48
page 474


are uncontrolled and uncontrollable, respectively. This indicates the commission of an indiscriminate attack on the civilian population of southern Israel, a war crime, and may amount to crimes against humanity. These attacks have caused loss of life and physical and mental injury to civilians and damage to private houses, religious buildings and property and have eroded the economic and cultural life of the affected communities."

[...][/color]

Sounds to me like that could easily spur an ICC prosecution ...
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 04:10 PM

Quote:
That's not what Judge Goldstone found, no...


No that is exactly what the Judge found .

Quote:
No, that's not a natural inference.


Yes it is natural for Hamas to lob rockets at civilian targets , they do that all the time.

Quote:
Well, that's uncorroborated.


So is the 1417 , like I said the numbers can change dramatically .

Quote:
Sounds a bit improbable... more likely to have been none.


Only means that Hamas is either unlucky or just terrible at shooting strait - Most of Hamas rockets landed in parks and in the middle of streets , fortunately their rockets did not hit a crowded market or populated centers . Really it was just by chance those rockets are really just dumb bombs .

Quote:
I don't agree with that - numbers mean a lot when assessing war crimes


You should know better , numbers onlys comes into play when it goes to court as in counts of crime 3 -vs- 1417 . Still one murder is still one murder as a crime goes


Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 04:25 PM

Quote:
I would grant you that the bloodthirsty Israeli zealots are showing the bloodthirsty Palestinain zealots how things are done

I don't know about bloodthirsty - I think you're going a bit over the top with that... more like Israel is determined to keep Palestinian land by force including giving 'em a bloody good hiding for trying to get it back, and the Palestinians are not prepared to give it up - quite rightly in my opinion.

Quote:
1681... 1683...

Uncorroborated

Quote:
1721... 1724...

Not disputed.

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 04:35 PM

Quote:
more like Israel is determined to keep Palestinian land by force


IMO
I believe that is because the Palestinians never ever said that Israel has the Right to Exist - If they said that I bet that things will change dramatically , since Israel will now have no right to continue the oppression and defend themselves from terror attacks .

Right to Exist - 3 easy words to say and yet they refused to say it - While Egypt , Jordan and Syria have all said those words . Kinda sad when you think about , the deaths and pain will continue
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 04:39 PM

Quote:
Uncorroborated


Prove it. The deaths are presented as fact in the report. Are you privy to information the Commission was not?

Quote:
Not disputed.


In your response to Carp earlier you stated the Commission did not find that Palestinians were deliberately and intentionally targeting civilian populations. That statement is contradicted by the conclusions on those pages of the report ...

Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 04:43 PM

Yep Big Six

it is right there in "Black and White" wording , go figure - ehh
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 04:48 PM

Quote:
Quote:
That's not what Judge Goldstone found, no...

No that is exactly what the Judge found .

No, that's not what he found.

Quote:
Yes it is natural for Hamas to lob rockets at civilian targets , they do that all the time.

No, the motive you ascribe to it is not a natural inference,

Quote:
Quote:
Well, that's uncorroborated.

So is the 1417

No, the 1417 is corroborated.

Quote:
fortunately their rockets did not hit a crowded market or populated centers

Well, it's impossible to aim them at any particular target. wink

Quote:
numbers onlys comes into play when it goes to court as in counts of crime 3 -vs- 1417

Like I said - there's a recommendation for the confirmed Palesinian deaths to be prosecuted but not uncorrorated ones on the other side because prosecutions have to proceed from a prima facie case.

km

Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 04:58 PM

Quote:
Prove it. The deaths are presented as fact in the report.

Well, what he says in the report is sourced in the text or in a footnote. Corroboration exists when there's more than one source for the information.

Quote:
your response to Carp earlier you stated the Commission did not find that Palestinians were deliberately and intentionally targeting civilian populations.

I believe the rocket fire was intended to put fear into civilian trespassers but with no guidance systems the charge of wilful killing could not be made out.

km
Posted by: katlpablo

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 06:26 PM

Originally Posted By: carp
Again 3 murders does NOT make you better in anyway then someone who killed 1417

And does murdering 1417 persons make you any worse than murdering 3?
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 06:51 PM

Originally Posted By: katlpablo
Originally Posted By: carp
Again 3 murders does NOT make you better in anyway then someone who killed 1417

And does murdering 1417 persons make you any worse than murdering 3?


No it just makes you a better shot - just because Hamas was unlucky in their aim to kill more does not in anyway remove them from crimes
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 06:55 PM

Quote:
I believe the rocket fire was intended to put fear into civilian trespassers but with no guidance systems the charge of wilful killing could not be made out.


That is the most crazy statement I ever heard - Gheees big guy your better then this .

You don't fire dumb rockets into a civilian area to "just" place fear - without even thinking the rockets will kill some civilians <-- shear insanity
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 07:01 PM

Quote:
No, the 1417 is corroborated.


Please show some proof on that besides wild accusations - Keep in mind that the investigation only just started
Posted by: katlpablo

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 07:15 PM

Sorry that i may seem repetitive, but i just need you to confirm that you're telling me that

killing 1417 persons is no worse that killing 3.

Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 09:03 PM

Murder is murder one or many

Is there something you don't understand about the crime ? ?

1417 is a number that is NOT confirmed at all , nor is the 3

It could be as easy after the investigation to be 17 and 9 ? who knows
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 10:09 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
Prove it. The deaths are presented as fact in the report.

Well, what he says in the report is sourced in the text or in a footnote. Corroboration exists when there's more than one source for the information.

Quote:
your response to Carp earlier you stated the Commission did not find that Palestinians were deliberately and intentionally targeting civilian populations.

I believe the rocket fire was intended to put fear into civilian trespassers but with no guidance systems the charge of wilful killing could not be made out.
km


I'll have to search for the link again;

...but it was part of the compromise that Pres. Carter
had worked out with the the Palestinians;
He'd reasoned with them that.. (as carp wisely suggested)
killing people was only getting NEGATIVE Attention,
and if they couldn't be dissuaded from acts of violence
to gain worldwide attention, then at least they should
stop extreme acts, such as suicide bombings of restaurants
and buses etc. >THEY HAVE<

The unguided missiles are designed to disrupt life for the
Israeli's as much as possible, with a minimum of deaths...
(although as we've seen accidents do happen) at least until
Israel recognizes THEIR 'right to exist' and the
Peace process finally moves toward the long sought after
Two State Solution with secure borders for BOTH States.
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/17/09 10:38 PM

Originally Posted By: Celandine
The unguided missiles designed to disrupt life for the
Israeli's as much as possible, with a minimum of deaths...
at least until Israel recognizes THEIR 'right to exist'.


Rockets and people blowing themselves up sure do fascinate the media. I see a new trend developing is running over buses and cars with bulldozers. Often overlooked though are the everyday events, like people simply commuting to work or sitting in their front yard getting shot at by snipers, or people getting attacked while just out hiking.

How many times do you allow a fly to bite at your neck before you swat it? Isn't swatting the fly a bit extreme comparatively speaking? This situation really isn't any different. The fly is taking a big risk in biting you, and you simply could have brushed it away.

If the Palestinians really wanted to bend Israel over the barrel, they'd completely lay down their arms. No suicide bombers. No sniper fire. Not one single act of violence. Then the world might comparatively take real action if Israel kept up it's ways. As it is though, they bite away every single day, then cry foul when swatted.

It's a little dishonest to simply say they killed 3, then Israel killed 1400. You really should include the 3 killed back on July 2nd last year, the 2 April 9th, the 8 on March 6th, the two students stabbed back on Jan 24th and the border officer killed that day too, and don't forget the 2 killed December 28th...
Posted by: katlpablo

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 12:49 AM

Originally Posted By: carp
Murder is murder one or many

Is there something you don't understand about the crime ? ?

1417 is a number that is NOT confirmed at all , nor is the 3

It could be as easy after the investigation to be 17 and 9 ? who knows

1000 murders is not 1 murder or 3.

A 1003 broken families is, yes, 3 broken families plus 1000 broken families too.

There are many ways of murder some come from exploding rockets, others occur from chemical agents, atomic nuclei. Some murders come when a soldier uses a civilian as a shield.

An intelligent enriched uranium blockbuster weapon used on the town plaza on civilians is not the same as dumb mortar fire used on that same civilian plaza.

Which is all about the subject i quote: "Inquiry into Gaza conflict singles out Israeli policy towards Palestinians for most serious condemnation"

Are you pretending that time will show that Israeli civilians during these wars received punishment comparable to that received by Palestinian civilians? Will it show that for every civilian dead from one side there was one dead from the other? Maybe you're suggesting the proportion would be something like 17:9?

Look at the general living conditions anywhere in the Israeli+Palestinian lands and you will see who is the abuser and who is abused. Palestinians are being trampled on in both sides of the Israeli wall.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 01:50 AM

Quote:
Quote:
... the rocket fire was intended to put fear into civilian trespassers but with no guidance systems the charge of wilful killing could not be made out.

You don't fire dumb rockets into a civilian area to "just" place fear - without even thinking the rockets will kill some civilians

That's what they did - 3 fatalities from 8,000 strikes means that the odds were 2,666 : 1 against it happening. One can't establish an intent to kill on that probability. Murder requires knowledge that death or serious injury was a virtual certainty in each separate incident and one can't 'know' something that isn't true. I accept that intentionally launching an attack knowing it will cause damage to civilian objects is a possible charge but once again proof of knowledge would be the weakness. Judge Goldstone also made a mistake reporting that the rockets were fired into Israel when in fact they were fired into Palestine which weakens the case still further. In any event offences against property are not as serious as rounding people up and deliberately shooting them dead as the Israelis are accused of doing.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 02:03 AM

Quote:
Quote:
the 1417 is corroborated.

Please show some proof on that...

I already have - the sources are in the report.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 02:09 AM

Quote:
If the Palestinians really wanted to bend Israel over the barrel, they'd completely lay down their arms.

They've tried that many times but it hasn't worked.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 02:14 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Israel is determined to keep Palestinian land by force

I believe that is because the Palestinians never ever said that Israel has the Right to Exist

No, Arafat did that but it didn't work.

km
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 05:05 AM


I'd wager the Brits felt the same way
about us pesky rebels here in America.

The Palestiians have also chosen to
not go gentle into that good night.
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 05:39 AM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
If the Palestinians really wanted to bend Israel over the barrel, they'd completely lay down their arms.

They've tried that many times but it hasn't worked.

km


That's because they've never actually done it. Unless like you, the daily violence against Israeli citizens is ignored.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 06:01 AM

Quote:
That's because they've never actually done it. Unless like you, the daily violence against Israeli citizens is ignored.

Yeah, they actually did it on 8 February 2005 for example but it didn't actually work because on 10 February 2005 Israel started provoking retaliation by murdering Palestinians - the usual formula for keeping the conflict going.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 06:31 AM

Quote:
... but with no guidance systems the charge of willful killing could not be made out.
Hmmm... I seem to recall you referring to some of the U.S. air or drone strikes in Afghanistan and/or Pakistan as reckless homicide. But that description doesn't apply to your Hamas Heroes, eh?

Another shining example of your self-professed consistency. sick
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 06:36 AM

Seems pretty consistent since the drones and US air strikes are very precise in blowing up houses with people in them. Not saying that is a bad thing if the house is full of confirmed terrorists but usually others are going to be killed whenever you target a house.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 07:00 AM

I'm not excusing those U.S. attacks. My point is that such actions were characterized — rightly so, perhaps — as reckless homicide, because of the collateral damage (can we possibly find a more vague descriptor for the killing of innocent civilians? crazy ). Yet firing missiles without accurate guidance systems is apparently not reckless homicide. U.S., Israel, et al = reckless murderers; Hamas, Hezbollah = heroic freedom fighters.

That's the "consistency", or lack thereof, that I'm talking about. Wazzamattah you? No reedin' compresshin? }:p
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 07:14 AM

Quote:
Yet firing missiles without accurate guidance systems is apparently not reckless homicide

It's not wilful killing which is what the Israelis are being accused of... as I said higher up the thread murder requires knowledge of a virtual certainly of death or serious harm which is supported by the facts in the case of US cross border strikes on Pakistan but not by the wildly ineffective Hamas strikes on Palestine.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 08:19 AM

km, You. Are. The. MAN!!! I just knew you'd have an excuse for your pals.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 09:03 AM

It's you that needs the excuse... 1417 : 3 speaks for itself.

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 12:34 PM

Originally Posted By: steveg
km, You. Are. The. MAN!!! I just knew you'd have an excuse for your pals.


LOL no shiit , I never knew that willful firing rockets into a city is not murder . I guess them rockets were lunched by accident
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 12:54 PM

True dat. I never expect to kill anyone whenever I throw bowling balls off the interstate overpass. I'm just practicing for league night. smirk
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 01:08 PM

Quote:
I guess them rockets were lunched by accident

I've already told you why they were lunched... to protest against the continuing expropriation of their lands without legal redress and to put civilian trespassers in fear - which is regrettable, but it's not murder.

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 01:18 PM

LOL

I don't care what the protest is YOU have NO RIGHT to murder anyone

The real truth the 1417 blood is on Hamas hands it is all their fault they were told many times in the space of 10 days to STOP firing those rockets or Israel will defend themselves - which is exactly what happened

If Hamas ceased the rocket fire those 1417 would still be alive today <- Blame Hamas
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 01:41 PM

Quote:
YOU have NO RIGHT to murder anyone

Well I don't think they murdered anyone - murder requires knowledge of a virtual certainty of death or serious harm which is not apparent from the facts - there were many murders alright but they were committed by the Israelis - not that you would care about that.

Quote:
they were told many times in the space of 10 days to STOP firing those rockets.

I wouldn't recommend that... it would mean living in servitude and humiliation. Hamas has told the Israelis many times to stop trying to take away their land and to return that already expropriated and until that happens I'd recommend that they continue their protests.

Quote:
If Hamas ceased the rocket fire those 1417 would still be alive today <- Blame Hamas

No I don't agree with that... a lot more Palestinians were murdered before the rocket strikes than after so your thinking is a little woolly on that one I think.

km


Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 02:43 PM

carp, I think I've figured out km's worst nightmare:

Two gay Israeli soldiers, one of whom is adopted and the other an IVF baby, and who are married to each other, have invaded km's garden! shocked But it get's worse. One of them is me and the other one is you!!! laugh
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/18/09 04:30 PM

LOL your to funny

Quote:
Well I don't think they murdered anyone - murder requires knowledge of a virtual certainty of death or serious harm which is not apparent from the facts


I'll remember that excuse the next time there is collateral casualties when the US fires a rocket at the Taliban

Quote:
there were many murders alright but they were committed by the Israelis


Only after Hamas fired first

Quote:
Hamas has told the Israelis many times to stop trying to take away their land and to return that already expropriated and until that happens I'd recommend that they continue their protests.


Hamas was told many times to say Israel has the right to exist - only then the peace process can really move ahead -> without those 3 words from the Palestinians a state of war still continues

Quote:
No I don't agree with that... a lot more Palestinians were murdered before the rocket strikes than after so your thinking is a little woolly on that one I think.


STOP bringing up very old news it stupid and silly - we can go back a 1,000 years if you want it will not make peace possible living in the past

Palestinians needs to bring the world attention through peaceful ways - Violence begets Violence <-- even young children knows that
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 05:16 AM

Quote:
Quote:
murder requires knowledge of a virtual certainty of death or serious harm...

I'll remember that... when the US fires a rocket...

I hope you do, because you normally forget.

Quote:
Hamas fired first

No that's factually incorrect although it happens that firing is allowed if your land is being taken away.

Quote:
STOP bringing up very old news it stupid and silly...

Oh that would be convenient wouldn't it if there were a limitation period for war crimes... for your information war crimes are never too old to mention and prosecuting them is not stupid or silly - they remain indictable for ever. You wouln't like it if you were a concentration camp victim in WWII and then someone came along as said everything is just fine and dandy because it all happened such long time ago - so don't start trying to say it's alright for Palestinian victims just because they're Arabs.

Quote:
we can go back a 1,000 years...

No we can't actually, we only go back to the instruments of international law.

Quote:
Palestinians needs to bring the world attention through peaceful ways...

What and the Israelis don't I suppose... the Palestinians have tried all that but it hasn't worked because it takes two to tango.

km
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 05:47 AM

Originally Posted By: carp
So if you wanna cut the blame game , I give it a 50 / 50 both sides are at fault


That is pretty amazing how you can take a complex issue and get it down to a clear 50/50 wrongdoing allotment. But lets take your ruler and run with it. We are funding one side and not the other. We are reporting all the bad things one side does and not the other. We are allowing one side to steal land from the other.

Why are we supporting, arming, and enabling one side and not the other if the atrocities are 50/50?

Look at the conditions inside the Gaza strip then look at the conditions outside the checkpoint. Look at where Israelis live and where Palestinians live. How you get 50/50 out of that is beyond me.

Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 10:07 AM

Quote:
I've figured out km's worst nightmare: Two gay Israeli soldiers, one of whom is adopted and the other an IVF baby, and who are married to each other, have invaded km's garden! But it get's worse. One of them is me and the other one is you!!!

That might be quite funny but there's only one problem... you're both of the same sex. eek

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 10:23 AM

Actually, what's funny — in a sad way, and potentially a problem for you — is how high over your head that one just flew. WOOOOOOOOSH!

Or is it just another expression of your disapproval of same-sex marriage?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 10:30 AM

Quote:
Or is it just another expression of your disapproval of same-sex marriage?

Obviously it went straight over your head... it was an expression of the meaning of marriage.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 10:34 AM

Oh puhleez! Nothing you say ever goes anywhere in a straight line. Hang on to your "meaning of marriage". It may be worth a half-pence some day.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 10:57 AM

Quote:
Hang on to your "meaning of marriage". It may be worth a half-pence some day.

It's strange isn't it over at the other thread that for all Elton's wealth the distinction can't be bought - what's funny is that he accepts it and you don't - oh, I forgot - you know more about what's right for him than he knows himself - never mind that he's a highly accomplished and successful musician.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 11:09 AM

It's not my business what Elton John accepts or doesn't accept. But we all know what you do not accept:
Quote:
there's only one problem... you're both of the same sex. eek
Operative word, "problem."

Oh, I know, it's all about the legal terminology. The law is your profession so I can't fault you for having your nose buried in the law books. The problem is where the law books are buried. Perhaps if you tilt your head back and open your mouth wide, there might be some sunlight to read by?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 11:14 AM

Quote:
Operative word, "problem."

Yeah, with your grammar.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 11:28 AM

Pffffft. Talk to Obama. Some say he wants to pull the plug on Grammar.
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 12:39 PM

Originally Posted By: polymerase
Originally Posted By: carp
So if you wanna cut the blame game , I give it a 50 / 50 both sides are at fault


That is pretty amazing how you can take a complex issue and get it down to a clear 50/50 wrongdoing allotment. But lets take your ruler and run with it. We are funding one side and not the other. We are reporting all the bad things one side does and not the other. We are allowing one side to steal land from the other.

Why are we supporting, arming, and enabling one side and not the other if the atrocities are 50/50?

Look at the conditions inside the Gaza strip then look at the conditions outside the checkpoint. Look at where Israelis live and where Palestinians live. How you get 50/50 out of that is beyond me.



Poly the crime is murder thats what the crime is the numbers are another matter

Both sides committed murder = 50 / 50 - The numbers are for a court matter as to how many counts of murder to bring to justice - providing the 1417 is accurate and verified with autopsies via 3rd party investigators and not just wild claims , same with the 3
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 12:53 PM

Quote:
No that's factually incorrect although it happens that firing is allowed if your land is being taken away.


Your wrong again - simply there are many peaceful ways to exhaust first .
Another reason why your wrong , if you were correct then explain why Hamas is being charged with war crimes ? ?

Quote:
No we can't actually, we only go back to the instruments of international law.


You mean back to the resolution that the Arabs rejected which is part of the disputed lands that they themselves rejected before ?

Quote:
Oh that would be convenient wouldn't it if there were a limitation period for war crimes... for your information war crimes are never too old to mention and prosecuting them is not stupid or silly - they remain indictable for ever. You wouln't like it if you were a concentration camp victim in WWII and then someone came along as said everything is just fine and dandy because it all happened such long time ago - so don't start trying to say it's alright for Palestinian victims just because they're Arabs.


That is an insane analogy - Look at Japan , Germany and Italy , if we had shiit for brains we would still be in war . You have to move on through peaceful ways

Gaza and Israel is a fine example of living in the past , a eye for an eye mentality .
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 01:06 PM

There's more than one dynamic here, carp. I agree with you that murder is murder, and in that narrow context, the numbers are almost irrelevant. The fact is, the Israelis never have and never will believe in a fair fight (for that matter, no one involved in a conflict wants a fair fight — they want the biggest advantage they can get).

But in the broader context, the land grabs, the oppression, and the treatment that the Israelis are handing out is overkill.

Hamas and Hezbollah are as guilty as the Israelis in terms of armed aggression. The problem is that the Israelis — in the process of eradicating anything resembling a fair fight — have gone way too far. So the 50/50 only holds so much water.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 01:46 PM

Quote:
Both sides committed murder = 50 / 50

Er, no... for about the fourth time laugh murder requires knowledge of a virtual certainty of death or serious harm... the Israelis had it because they rounded people up and shot them dead whereas Hamas didn't because they fired rockets onto their own land with little or no chance of anyone being killed or harmed. I'm sorry to point this out but my students who are quite young understood it straight away and even here at the forum you're the only one who doesn't get it.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 01:52 PM

Quote:
explain why Hamas is being charged with war crimes ? ?

hmmnn that's a very tricky question sleep ... the main problem is that they're not being charged with war crimes.

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 02:05 PM

Quote:
There's more than one dynamic here, carp. I agree with you that murder is murder, and in that narrow context, the numbers are almost irrelevant.


Exactly in the narrow context of the crime is murder it does not make 1417 murders more or less painful then say only 3 murders . Both sides murdered people , like I mentioned both sides committed the crime of murder the numbers does not change in anyway the definition of murder

Quote:
murder |&#712;m&#601;rd&#601;r|
noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another : the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer | he was put on trial for attempted murder. See note at kill .
• informal a very difficult or unpleasant task or experience : my first job at the steel mill was murder.
• informal something causing great discomfort to a part of the body : that exercise is murder on the lumbar regions.


Now notice when you read the definition of the word it MAKES no distinction of numbers at all . More or less murders does not change the definition , crime of murder

Quote:
But in the broader context, the land grabs, the oppression, and the treatment that the Israelis are handing out is overkill.


I completely agree really heavy handed - Also don't forget that Hamas was using civilians as human shields such as firing rockets from apartment buildings and schools so those counts should be at the hands of Hamas
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 02:11 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
Both sides committed murder = 50 / 50

Er, no... for about the fourth time laugh murder requires knowledge of a virtual certainty of death or serious harm... the Israelis had it because they rounded people up and shot them dead whereas Hamas didn't because they fired rockets onto their own land with little or no chance of anyone being killed or harmed. I'm sorry to point this out but my students who are quite young understood it straight away and even here at the forum you're the only one who doesn't get it.

km


LOL - thats got to be the - ahhhhh never mind I won't call you names

Prove it , got any links to where Israel rounded up people and gun them down in the streets ?

Quote:
straight away and even here at the forum you're the only one who doesn't get it.


NO your the only one that is closed minded and bias -
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 02:16 PM

We're on the same page in that there's plenty of blame to go around — though there are some that can only see the conflict in mono-vision. But if were to place the human rights abuses on a scale, Israel would probably be the fatty in the room.
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 02:26 PM

Originally Posted By: steveg
We're on the same page in that there's plenty of blame to go around — though there are some that can only see the conflict in mono-vision. But if were to place the human rights abuses on a scale, Israel would probably be the fatty in the room.


I agree big time , Israel tops that list .
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 02:54 PM

Quote:
Prove it , got any links to where Israel rounded up people and gun them down...?

I've already provided the links - you need to start reading them... this example which is only one of many goes back to the opening post... crazy

"The Mission investigated eleven incidents in which Israeli forces launched direct attacks against civilians with lethal outcome... The cases examined in this part of the report are... cases in which the facts indicate no justifiable military objective pursued by the attack. The first two incidents are attacks against houses in the Samouni neighbourhood south of Gaza City, including the shelling of a house in which Palestinian civilians had been forced to assemble by the Israeli forces. The following group of seven incidents concern the shooting of civilians while they were trying to leave their homes to walk to a safer place, waving white flags and, in some of the cases, following an injunction from the Israeli forces to do so. The facts gathered by the Mission indicate that all the attacks occurred under circumstances in which the Israeli forces were in control of the area and had previously entered into contact with or at least observed the persons they subsequently attacked, so that they must have been aware of their civilian status. In the majority of these incidents, the consequences of the Israeli attacks against civilians were aggravated by their subsequent refusal to allow the evacuation of the wounded or to permit access to ambulances.

Don't discredit yourself as you so often do by trying to excuse it... everyone knows that this kind of activity represents criminality of the most serious kind that we have no alternative but to bring before the courts. whistle

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 03:10 PM

Quote:
Don't discredit yourself as you so often do by trying to excuse it...


I don't discredit myself like you do by constantly showing your bias

The Mission - needs to show their FACTS <-- that is what I am talking about

Your link is just a narration based on their view or their bias of the facts . Which when it goes to court it will then be argued on what is the real truth .
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 03:27 PM

Quote:
The Mission - needs to show their FACTS <-- that is what I am talking about

You're still not reading are you - not even from the post you're replying to...

"The cases examined in this part of the report are... cases in which the [color:#990000]facts indicate no justifiable military objective pursued by the attack."[/color]

Or from the link:

"The Mission adopted an inclusive approach in gathering information and seeking views. Information-gathering methods included: (a) the review of reports from different sources; (b) interviews with victims, witnesses and other persons having relevant information); (c) site visits to specific locations in Gaza where incidents had occurred; (d) the analysis of video and photographic images, including satellite imagery; (e) the review of medical reports about injuries to victims; (f) the forensic analysis of weapons and ammunition remnants collected at incident sites; (g) meetings with a variety of interlocutors; (h) invitations to provide information relating to the Mission’s investigation requirements; (i) the wide circulation of a public call for written submissions; (j) public hearings in Gaza and in Geneva; 19. The Mission conducted 188 individual interviews. It reviewed more than 300 reports, submissions and other documentation either researched of its own motion, received in reply to its call for submissions and notes verbales or provided during meetings or otherwise, amounting to more than 10,000 pages, over 30 videos and 1,200 photographs.

Are you seriously suggesting against Judge Goldstone's view that all those Palestinian deaths should not be prosecuted for want of factual evidence? What qualifies you to contradict him? sick

km

Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 06:53 PM

Quote:
1724. From the facts available, the Mission finds that the rocket and mortars attacks, launched by Palestinian armed groups in Gaza, have caused terror in the affected communities of southern Israel and in Israel as a whole. Furthermore, it is the Mission’s view that the mortars and rockets

[Footnotes]

A/HRC/12/48
page 474

are uncontrolled and uncontrollable, respectively. This indicates the commission of an indiscriminate attack on the civilian population of southern Israel, a war crime, and may amount to crimes against humanity. These attacks have caused loss of life and physical and mental injury to civilians and damage to private houses, religious buildings and property and have eroded the economic and cultural life of the affected communities."


That war crime is murder - according to The Mission
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 07:20 PM

Originally Posted By: carp
Quote:
Don't discredit yourself as you so often do by trying to excuse it...


I don't discredit myself like you do by constantly showing your bias

The Mission - needs to show their FACTS <-- that is what I am talking about

Your link is just a narration based on their view or their bias of the facts . Which when it goes to court it will then be argued on what is the real truth .


What don't you get?

"BIAS" Swings BOTH Ways.

You & Steve are "BIAS" In FAVOR of The Israeli aggression.

Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 07:33 PM

I'm trying to remember the last time one of your wild-eyed and spittle-soaked assumptions actually turned out to be correct. Trying... trying... trying... Darn!

Oh well, maybe this time? Ball's in your court. Show us the proof.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 10:37 PM

Quote:
I'm trying to remember the last time one of your wild-eyed and spittle-soaked assumptions actually turned out to be correct.

You mean carp is obviously biased and I'm obviously not - good point.

km
Posted by: Lea

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 10:49 PM



I'll be on the lookout for bombs ~ specially from your area. Please let us know when to Duck. Or quack,




Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/19/09 10:58 PM

Quote:
That war crime is murder - according to The Mission

No that's not what it found... wilful killing is attributed only to the Israelis - one reason why your 50 / 50 argument is nonsense. Incidentally you still haven't answered poly's inquiry about why the US doesn't adopt your ratio when supplying arms and aid in the region?

km
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 12:09 AM

I am surprise Celandine .

Quote:
You & Steve are "BIAS" In FAVOR of The Israeli aggression.


I never said I was in favor of Israel aggression

KM is the bias one and said even in this thread that Hamas has the right to murder because their perceived land which they reject the UN resolution for that land , that they have the right to murder <-- which I totally always will disagree that anyone has the right to murder unless it is for the direct saving of ones life - never over land and more when there are many ways to settle disputes peacefully .

NOW if KM
When making his bias comments and post about atrocities be it Israel or US or Coalition - If he /she would at lease make a mention that both sides are or have some blame in the issue - I would agree with him , until then I will stand up for the other side since they don't seem to represent in KM bias comments

Just keeping the BullShiit fare
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 12:21 AM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
That war crime is murder - according to The Mission

No that's not what it found... wilful killing is attributed only to the Israelis - one reason why your 50 / 50 argument is nonsense. Incidentally you still haven't answered poly's inquiry about why the US doesn't adopt your ratio when supplying arms and aid in the region?

km


LOL

It is there Black and White in your own link - your to funny

As mentioned again and again murder is murder it is 50 /50 they both committed murder - the numbers are for only court counts on a number to bring charges against as to Hamas , 3 being the case this time .

Quote:
Incidentally you still haven't answered poly's inquiry about why the US doesn't adopt your ratio when supplying arms and aid in the region?


That has nothing to do with anything - are you that stupid ? ?

Russia and China and NK supplies arms and the Balkans yada yada yada <--> so what is this silly point ? are they too responsible for murders is that what you are trying to say ? ?

Example;
I give you a gun and another guy gave you some bullets to defend yourself - But you go out and rob a bank and kill as many people as possible <-- why would your action be my fault ??

Keep in mind people kill people not guns or tanks or missiles - you have missed used the gun I gave you .
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 12:27 AM

Quote:
If he /she would at lease make a mention that both sides are or have some blame in the issue - I would agree with him

He, for your information... Judge Goldstone found some blame on both sides but he entertained a mistaken belief that the Palestinians had fired rockets into Israel.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 12:46 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
war crime is murder - according to The Mission

No that's not what it found... wilful killing is attributed only to the Israelis

It is there Black and White in your own link

No, it's not in the link... the link attributes wilful killing only to the Israelis, which is why you're unable to cite anything to the contrary.

Quote:
murder is murder it is 50 /50 they both committed murder

No, murder requires knowledge of a virtual certainty of death or serious harm... the Israelis had it because they rounded people up and shot them dead whereas Hamas didn't because they fired rockets onto their own land with little or no chance of anyone being killed or harmed.

Quote:
Quote:
you still haven't answered poly's inquiry about why the US doesn't adopt your ratio when supplying arms and aid in the region?

That has nothing to do with anything

It's got everything to do with it... if blame is 50 / 50 assisting either side is irresponsible and assisting the wrong side even more so... I don't think he would have asked a question that had nothing to do with anything - you're job is just to answer the question not analyse it. whistle

km
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 12:54 AM

Originally Posted By: Lea


I'll be on the lookout for bombs ~ specially from your area. Please let us know when to Duck. Or quack,


Go sleep it off
before you fall down and break something.

Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 04:03 AM

Oh come on. That's a little too sophomoric — even for you.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 04:08 AM

What is?

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 04:10 AM

Quote:
... a mistaken belief that the Palestinians had fired rockets into Israel.
crazy
If you needed to get a litre of milk from the grocery store a block west of your flat, I bet you'd travel east around the globe to get there.
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 06:59 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Quote:
... a mistaken belief that the Palestinians had fired rockets into Israel.
crazy
If you needed to get a litre of milk from the grocery store a block west of your flat, I bet you'd travel east around the globe to get there.


tsk*tsk*tsk

..and this from the man who never shuts up
yet never actually says anything..

has an opinion on everything, ..yet can't
be nailed down to any one of them.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 08:13 AM

And you differ... how? Oh that's right, you presume to know everything about everyone else's life and you're compulsively vulgar. My bad, I forgot that distinction.
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 08:43 AM



another distinction is that
I wasn't taught a vocabulary of weasel-words
that enable you to deny saying things after having said them.

Posted by: steveg

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 08:57 AM

Sucks when the days of the week wear off your pill-minder, eh? The assumptions get downright hallucinatory!

And before you go off on your trademark Vicky Victim elevator pitch about being bullied and ganged up on, let's declare the obvious: as you have done time and time again, within a thread where neither Lea nor I have addressed you, called you out, or referred to you, you purposely come looking for a fight with one or both of us. When you swing first, expect a response. But don't run home whining that you got picked on, because I daresay, very few here buy it. And don't lecture anyone about denying what they say until you start taking responsibility for your own behavior.
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 11:30 AM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Quote:
... a mistaken belief that the Palestinians had fired rockets into Israel.
crazy
If you needed to get a litre of milk from the grocery store a block west of your flat, I bet you'd travel east around the globe to get there.


Right Steve

Judge Goldstone is right about the Israelis but is wrong about the Palestinians <-- even the Judge is bias

I am outta of this circle jerk
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 01:17 PM

Quote:
Judge Goldstone is right about the Israelis but is wrong about the Palestinians

He's quite sound on the law... his history doesn't seem so hot but altogether I've only noticed one mistake - which is pretty good going in such a complex piece of work.

km
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/20/09 03:15 PM

Originally Posted By: steveg
Sucks when the days of the week wear off your pill-minder, eh? The assumptions get downright hallucinatory!

And before you go off on your trademark Vicky Victim elevator pitch about being bullied and ganged up on, let's declare the obvious: as you have done time and time again, within a thread where neither Lea nor I have addressed you, called you out, or referred to you, you purposely come looking for a fight with one or both of us. When you swing first, expect a response. But don't run home whining that you got picked on, because I daresay, very few here buy it. And don't lecture anyone about denying what they say until you start taking responsibility for your own behavior.


YO, Pee-Wee...

My back still hurts too bad to fukaround with you
so I'm just going to re-post the bulletin I just
posted to The Wicked Witch of the West:
======================================

Yo, Evillene... **

Put down the tequila and see if you can fallow this:

You've been wrong all along (gee wot a surprize!)

You're just so used to your High School Bully BullSh!t
that you just naturally thought that even that part of
it would be meaningful the part where you tag someone
as "Vickie Victim" thinking that alone would be enough
to silence them into lying down and allowing you to
take control of the situation.

WRONG!

I was... never was, nor will ever be "The VICTIM"...
get it?

All I ever did ... and will CONTINUE To DO.. is DRAW
ATTENTION TO YOUR BEHAVIOR For All To See to break
your hold over the NEXT person you & Pee-Wee try to
roll over and intimidate into leaving.

The reason why I initially contacted to MODERATOR is
because (on any other forum) that's CORRECT PROCEDURE.

The reason I contacted mMod1 REPEATEDLY was because
HE TOLD ME TO! He instructed that I TELL HIM WHENEVER
I saw you (and Pee-Wee) make posts crafted to "push
people's buttons" usually related to previous fights.
(Example: Your lame protest above concerning EDITING)

Since he hadn't seen your previous rants against my
admitted habit of editing MOST of my posts.. he'd
wouldn't "get" that it was one of your "Button Pushers"
so he told me to show them to him every time I
came across one to show him what I was talking about.

AGAIN.. these are all trivial! Just a gad-fly... but
it showed your pattern of typically crappy behavior.

ANYWAY:
I decided the best way to go was Head-On Confrontation.

After all... why should YOU (and Pee-Wee) be the only
ones having fun? laugh What's good for the GOOSE & The
GANDER should be OK for the rest of us as well. grin

Back to the point:
I don't need the protection of anyone, never did, never
will... I was never "The Victim" let alone "Vicky Victim"

YES I jumped in UNINVITED! LOLOLOL Like WHO INVITED YOU?!?
YOU went after keymaker.. and I went after YOU for making
the CONTENT EDITING Crack... get over it!

BTW (Vicky) Who's "WHINING" Now?

**Evillene, the Wicked Witch of the West
Posted by: RedStudebaker

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/24/09 12:24 PM

Even Israeli officials admit that no rockets by were fired by HAMAS during the ceasefire. A ceasefire which began on June 18 and lasted until Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4.

I know you are too biased and blind to see, but anyway ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfFMZ7Y-s_c


I know, I know, the Palestinians wear their skirts too short and the Israeli's just can't resist. Bad Palestinians. What do they expect if they wear their skirts too short!
Posted by: carp

Re: Choice of trials... - 09/24/09 12:57 PM

What are you talking about ? ? LOL

Okay so those 251 rockets fired from May to Oct , never happened , I get your Bias now

I remember the six that was killed by Israelis guards who caught them trying to cross the boarder illegally and armed .

Now if you were not so bias you would know that HAMAS has to be in control within their boarders to NOT allow splinter factions to fire rockets during a ceases fire - which we all know happens every time when there is a cease fire . Some people just don't want peace at any cost and will do anything to break that peace <-- Hamas has to police their own people

In short even if Hamas did not fire those 15 rockets - They are directly responsible for letting that happen