Pope debunks gender theory

Posted by: keymaker

Pope debunks gender theory - 12/22/08 08:33 PM

Pope Benedict scored a double hit with just one shot in his end of year address at the Vatican when he blew wide open the fallacy of 'gender theory' whilst demolishing the US led 'tolerance' baloney that supports it. The only thing he didn't do is nail the intolerant backlash that will inevitably follow.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/22/08 08:38 PM

To reject distinction between sex and gender is sheer nonsense.
Posted by: carp

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/22/08 08:53 PM

What do you think the Pope would say ? ? - I mean it would be normal and obvious and completely expected.

fwiw'' Even the Koran does not regnonise same gender relationships
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/22/08 09:35 PM

The issue is very marginally about same sex relations. It's about the identity of gender and sex. We're usually very lazy in talking about gender and sex, so that even in filling out forms we're asked to declare what our gender is, when the form no doubt means us to denote our sex. Sex is hardware and gender is software; sex is our plumbing, indoor or outdoor, and gender is what we do with it--and I should say that even the hardware/plumbing is sometimes quite ambiguous.

At any rate, if gender and sex were identical, then it would be impossible to say that someone is a feminine man or a masculine woman--and again, the categories have nothing to do with sexual preference. Equally absurdly it would mean that the behavior of men and women across history and cultures is always identical. His holiness the pope is setting out to deny the findings of social science for the last hundred years or so. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but the article gives no evidence for why one would want to do such a thing.
Posted by: carp

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/22/08 09:41 PM

Quote:
His holiness the pope is setting out to deny the findings of social science for the last hundred years or so. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but the article gives no evidence for why one would want to do such a thing.


Again thats what I would expect the Pope to say - nothing new.
Posted by: Lea

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/22/08 09:47 PM


Wait a minute. I thought we were throwing shoes at Bush because he's gay and the Pope says that's bad. Gay, not throwing shoes. Crap. Now I'm really confused.



Posted by: newkojak

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/22/08 09:47 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
I take your point - it would be nice after some of the irrelevant dog poo we've been subjected to in the thread. But first of all it would be nice to have a retraction of the outrageous slur in the thread title which I'm demanding be withdrawn as unsubstantiated, false and malicious.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 01:28 AM

Yeah, where's the retraction?

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 02:18 AM

Quote:
I thought we were throwing shoes at Bush because he's gay and the Pope says that's bad.

That's jiust it - he doesn't say it's bad... he says homosexuality is not a sin.

Quote:
Now I'm really confused.

Clue: judge people as individuals rather than by their status.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 03:25 AM

How about a nice US led tolerance baloney sandwich?
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 03:35 AM

Quote:
form no doubt means us to denote our sex
Now that's something I never really paid a great deal of attention to, but I've seen both designations on different forms. So in which cases is it deliberate, and in which is it a lack of clarity or understanding?


JFTR, when the form queries sex, I always answer in the affirmative. blush grin
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 04:46 AM

Quote:
That's jiust it - he doesn't say it's bad... he says homosexuality is not a sin.
How nice of His Holiness to throw gays and lesbians a bone. But, he goes on to claim that homosexual acts are a sin. Why? Because one assumes that such acts occur out of wedlock? Well, golly gee, if those gay sinners were married, then said acts wouldn't be sinful at all! Oh wait... same sex marriage baaaaaaaaad. Oh well, painted into another corner. And judging by all the superlatives in your post, you sure seem to support the position. smirk

Yet you label a call for understanding and tolerance "baloney" — all the while demanding retractions and dissociations from those who label you what such remarks only prove you to be — anti-gay!

2684-429 — that's your number, dude. We've all got it now.
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 05:27 AM

Thanks for proving what an out of touch dumbass the pope is.
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 05:51 AM

No kidding. I thought this new pope would be a step backwards from the last one who gave the only good pope a heart attack but this is ridiculous. He is the dark ages. The bright side is that he will speed yet another organized religion into irrelevancy.

My question would be why isn't it irrelevant already? People actually listen to this guy? Creepy.
Posted by: Lea

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 07:31 AM


Unless one is Catholic, the Pope can babble all he likes and it amounts to nothing more than a Page 2 story. I suspect that you post the link to support your view that gay is bad ~ any Pope in a storm.

Stop and consider ~ a group of people don't hem and haw in the back ground of their social construct and arbitrarily assign prejudices to one another. They come to conclusions on an individual's bigotry or tolerance based on that individual's behavior over a period of time.

OK, rather than beat around your bush, the majority believe you to be homophobic because you've come off that way for a very long time. It's not as though there's been some kind of conspiracy to label you so. poly is an avowed and often rabid atheist, matt is a devoted, often delusional conservative and your are homophobic.

That you deny it so strenuously is especially laughable in light on the original subject of this post and your support of the Pope's views on the issue. Please note my civility. I do not want the Moderators involved in my response to you again.




Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 07:43 AM

Originally Posted By: Lea
any Pope in a storm


laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 09:47 AM

Quote:
poly is an avowed and often rabid atheist
Guilty as charged. I'm staying on my meds so a little less of the rabid part for the New Year. grin

Happy Mummer's Day to all.

Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 10:40 AM

Mummer's Day Parade is on life support this year. Philly has cut back its subsidy (because the city is on the verge of bankruptcy . . . so what else is new) and the parade is going to be like a dog this year (cur-tailed).
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/23/08 04:31 PM



Debunk gender theory.
Coming from this person.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/24/08 12:45 AM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Pope Benedict scored a double hit with just one shot in his end of year address at the Vatican when he blew wide open the fallacy of 'gender theory' whilst demolishing the US led 'tolerance' baloney that supports it. The only thing he didn't do is nail the intolerant backlash that will inevitably follow.

km


What do you mean "debunks". He doesn't do that at all. What he does is give his opinion based on his religious thinking. While I might tend to agree with some of what he says, he certainly is not an authority that I give a single credence to. Just a guy selected by a bunch of people to be the head of their group. Not my group so what he says is nothing to me.

To say he "debunks" something is to say he disproves something and he just is giving his opinion. Again, not important to me at all

dave

Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/24/08 04:01 AM

"Debunks"; "scored a double hit"; "blew wide open the fallacy"; "demolishing the US led tolerance"; "nail the intolerant backlash"...

Unsubtle and very telling expressions of praise — at the very least support — for a most unfortunate and fatally myopic world view. However, I'd say you've done a workmanlike job of debunking, double hitting, and blowing wide open the original post.
Quote:
Just a guy selected by a bunch of people to be the head of their group.
That pretty much puts it in perspective. Nicely done! cool
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/24/08 08:00 AM

And here is one significant result of that world view.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/24/08 08:10 AM

Too many enablers in positions of influence, if you ask me. And I include the media, to some degree, in that indictment.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/24/08 09:04 AM

Compassion and acceptance; that is what religion professes.

Relentless cruelty and intolerance; that is what religion practices.

The two-headed monster has been in the room for a long time.

Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/25/08 06:39 AM

Quote:
His holiness the pope is setting out to deny the findings of social science for the last hundred years or so.

That's funny I was thinking about all the social science his statement accorded with but, yeah, you're right, he's basing his conclusions on a much longer time-frame than 100 years.

I'm suspending disbelief at some of the more preposterous dog poo postings appearing in this thread until after Christmas but would take this opportunity to simply wish all my forum friends and fans a very Merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous New Year.

km
Posted by: MrB

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/25/08 10:47 PM

I find it so interesting that many just take someone's comments as being more special than others.

I am not Catholic so the Pope's views mean nothing to me. I would just as soon listen to Jake the Electrician's views. If one was Catholic then the Pope would be a person to look to for some guidance.

dave

Posted by: katlpablo

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/26/08 01:03 AM

Incredibly, even though Bush is a "lame duck", i'd sooner hear him than what Joe the Plumber has to say!

laugh grin
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/26/08 04:01 AM

Doesn't matter to me what one's "religion" or belief system is. Pope, Rabbi, Master Electrician... what I'm listening for is that person's unbiased POV. His/her acceptance of beliefs/practices/orientation/etc. that may fall outside his/her own — as well as for a logical, transparent rationale for his/her position and statements.

Nor do I discount those beliefs that are steeped in history and tradition — as long one acknowledges the that was then, this is now principle. Without history, we've got no illumination on the path to the future. But our learnings from history have to be adaptable to the future and the present, too!
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/26/08 04:08 AM

Quote:
preposterous dog poo postings appearing in this thread

Hey, the first pile is yours, bubbelah.
Merry Christmas to you, too (and can I have a fan club application? Please? Pretty please?)
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/27/08 10:53 AM

Quote:
such remarks only prove you to be — anti-gay!

Yeah well you think everyone's anti gay who doesn't believe in gay marriage - from the President-elect sideways to 99 per cent of all humanity. The strident and intolerant shouting of your message alters not the fact that yours is a quirky and minority viewpoint.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/27/08 11:21 AM

Quote:
Yeah well you think everyone's anti gay who doesn't believe in gay marriage

No, not everyone. Just you. And I'm not convinced that I'm in the minority on that opinion. Tend to your own quirks — if you can admit to them — before you worry about anyone else's.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/27/08 12:44 PM

Quote:
No, not everyone. Just you.

You're contradicting yourself... I would remind you that in a previous post you held the President-elect and the United States generally to be homophobic.

Quote:
I'm not convinced that I'm in the minority on that opinion.

Yeah well, you are... why else would you accuse the US of being homophobic?

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/27/08 01:05 PM

Do you have a point, or are you just practicing your word knots like a good boy scout?

Regarding Obama, I said "...it would seem that he is..." I also said it wouldn't surprise me if he altered his view at some point (yeah, I know, you would need a lot of help understanding something like that).

Can you prove to me that I'm in the minority in my belief that you're homophobic? Can you prove to me that your not?

And please show me where I accused the US at large of being homophobic? Another one of The Cases In Your Head, consigliori? Really, km, manufacturing realities to suit your argument is not a sign of a sound mind. Or or credibility for that matter.

I would remind you — again — that you shouldn't try to bullsh!t a bullsh!tter.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/27/08 09:14 PM

Quote:
To say he "debunks" something is to say he disproves something and he just is giving his opinion.

Well 'debunk' doesn't mean 'disprove' but 'expose the weakness in...'. The Pope seemed to do that quite effectively. Specifically, he pointed out that just because tolerance of an aspiration is demanded doesn't mean it's justified.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/27/08 09:31 PM

Justification being a perspectival thing . . . not for you, of course.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/27/08 09:41 PM

Quote:
Regarding Obama, I said "...it would seem that he is..."

That's right... "much to your disappointment".

Quote:
I also said it wouldn't surprise me if he altered his view at some point

You mean he might cease to be homophobic? Why don't you just admit that he's not homophobic and get it over with?

Quote:
Can you prove to me that I'm in the minority in my belief that you're homophobic? Can you prove to me that your not?

I don't have to prove anything. You made the accusation - you prove it.

Quote:
And please show me where I accused the US at large of being homophobic? Another one of The Cases In Your Head,

It was rolled in with the Obama exchange. I said that if opposition to gay marriage was homophobic then the United States and the President elect were homophobic. Your reply was "so it would seem, much to my disappointment".

Quote:
Really, km, manufacturing realities to suit your argument is not a sign of a sound mind. Or or credibility for that matter.

I'm not manufacturing anything - just reminding you about what you said previously.

km

Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/27/08 09:53 PM

Quote:
Justification being a perspectival thing . . . not for you, of course.
Yeah, mainly because it's not perspectival.

km
Posted by: MrB

Love these conversations. - 12/28/08 02:10 AM

Love these conversations. Remindes me of the give and take and personal jabs of the old MC forums

dave


Posted by: keymaker

Re: Love these conversations. - 12/28/08 02:30 AM

Quote:
Remindes me of the give and take and personal jabs of the old MC forums

Yeah, although speaking for myself whilst I do believe in give and take I never make personal jabs because that would be quite rude.

km

Posted by: steveg

Re: Love these conversations. - 12/28/08 04:26 AM

What you call rude, I call straightforward. I don't mince words. I don't have a problem examining and allocating merit to both sides of an argument (to the point where some have accused me of fence-sitting), and I don't dance around issues by sticking my head in statutes and refusing to entertain the concept of a different POV.

What you call personal jabs are me calling you out on your obstinate dismissal of anything you don't hold up as reality. Of course you think it's rude. And inconvenient, I'm sure. But I take some comfort and confidence in seeing that many here who are on a higher intellectual plane than I (that's right, I have no problem being the mental schlepper in the crowd) — those who can express themselves in less emotional and reactive terms than I — also do not buy your brand of bigoted baloney.

Rude? It comes down to this: You reap what you sow. Or as another old expression goes, Stop it — you'll go blind!
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Love these conversations. - 12/28/08 07:06 AM

Quote:
What you call rude... What you call personal jabs are me calling you out on your obstinate dismissal of anything you don't hold up as reality.

Actually I wasn't referring to you... Mr B was commenting on the exchange between Yoyo and me and I was simply dissociating myself from his 'personal jabs' observation. That was Mr B's term incidentally not mine. Most people here seem to think that personal attacks are rude and unnecessary so if you think otherwise I'm sure we're all looking forward to your explanation.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Love these conversations. - 12/28/08 08:59 AM

More verbal pirouettes! You're on a roll today, km.

I didn't say personal attacks aren't rude. I'm making the distinction btwn personal attacks and calling a spade a spade. And please please please don't insult what little intelligence I posses by claiming that you weren't at least alluding, if nor referring, to my remarks. And no, it's not ego. Just acknowledging that I give you no quarter.

My 15 yr old does a better job of dodging the obvious. Still not good enough to avoid being caught by the old man, though. Tsk tsk...
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/28/08 09:08 AM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
Justification being a perspectival thing . . . not for you, of course.
Yeah, mainly because it's not perspectival.

km


Bien sūr. In plain American . . . natch.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Love these conversations. - 12/28/08 09:22 AM

Quote:
And please please please don't insult what little intelligence I posses by claiming that you weren't at least alluding, if nor referring, to my remarks.

That's what I'm saying - that my comment was purely defensive as opposed to offensive. I would concede that I appreciated it could have been misinterpreted as a backhanded attack, even one one on you, but that was never the motivation.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Love these conversations. - 12/28/08 10:50 AM

Oy vey. I hope you've got a pocketful of breadcrumbs because you're wandering farther and farther away from the trail.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Love these conversations. - 12/28/08 10:53 AM

what trail?

km
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/28/08 05:57 PM

Quote:
Well 'debunk' doesn't mean 'disprove' but 'expose the weakness in...'


According to Oxford, the primary definition is to "expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)" ... but have it your way ...

Did you know that "faggot" is actually a bundle of wood?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/28/08 09:23 PM

Quote:
According to Oxford, the primary definition is to "expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)" ... but have it your way ...

Exactly, as opposed to 'disprove' - thanks, that makes my point very well... mainly because it's substantially the same in meaning as what I said in the first place.

Quote:
Did you know that "faggot" is actually a bundle of wood?

As a matter of fact I did - bundle of sticks... what's that got to do with anything?

km
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 08:09 AM

Quote:
Exactly, as opposed to 'disprove'


Nope:

Oxford:dictionary:

debunk |diˈbə ng k|
verb [ trans. ]
expose the falseness or hollowness of

disprove |disˈproōv|
verb [ trans. ]
prove that (something) is false

Same things, even according to:

Oxford: thesaurus:

disprove
verb
refute, prove false, falsify, debunk, negate, invalidate, contradict, confound, controvert, discredit; informal poke holes in, blow out of the water, shoot down; formal confute.


Quote:
As a matter of fact I did - bundle of sticks... what's that got to do with anything?


Even if I explained, you still wouldn't get it, so never mind ...
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 09:32 AM

Quote:
Same things...

Noope. If they were the 'same things' the two words would have identical definitions. Partially overlapping definitions does not make them the same thing. Now in my copy of Oxford 'disprove' is not given. Nor is it given in Cambridge, Collins or Webster. Even if another edition of Oxford or any of the others include it as a secondary meaning I was using the primary meaning of 'expose the falseness of...'. smirk

km


Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 09:53 AM

To expose the falseness of something is to disprove that thing. So to expose the falseness of the gay community's argument is to disprove the argument, nicht wahr?
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 09:56 AM

And who might youse be? Archie DeBunker? grin
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 11:14 AM

Quote:
To expose the falseness of something is to disprove that thing.

Not necessarily... a falseness can be exposed without the subject being disproved. If for example someone said that the President-elect is homophobic because he doesn't believe in gay marriage but then Sir Elton John, the well known musician and spokesman on gay rights, came along and said that opposition to gay marriage does not make one homophobic because one can be gay like himself and still hold that view then he would have exposed the weakness in the original premise without proving Obama's sympathies one way or the other.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 12:39 PM

Or, to vary the terms, willy nilly, Sir Elton would have disproved the proposition that statement A demonstrated the truth of statement B.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 01:09 PM

Quote:
Or, to vary the terms, willy nilly, Sir Elton would have disproved the proposition that statement A demonstrated the truth of statement B.

You can work it around like that if you want but the dictionary definition doesn't require it and I don't think MrB would be very happy about it because he was trying to suggest that the Pope had disproved nothing.

Okay, shoot... the Pope says that the mere fact that something is demanded like the 'right' to destroy the rainforest on grounds that global warming is not caused by it or if it is it's not a danger to humanity... I'm with you... disproves the proposition that the demand to do it demonstrates the truth of the justification for it. Neat.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 01:18 PM

If you drop out the parenthetical remark, you end up making no sense:

The pope says that the assertion of A disproves the proposition that the assertion of A demonstrates the justification for A.

Seems to me that what the pope has done is merely give voice to his prejudice. Now, his prejudice may well be shared by a great many people, and may well be a historical characteristic of human experience. But neither of those phenomena debunks/disproves anything at all.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 01:39 PM

Quote:
If you drop out the parenthetical remark, you end up making no sense:

Okay you're 'Statement A and Statement B' analogy doesn't adapt to the Pope's Christmas message which was about 'demands' and 'justifications' so he didn't disprove anything after all - just like I said originally.

Quote:
Seems to me that what the pope has done is merely give voice to his prejudice.

The question of whether destruction of the rainforest or any other human activity is a threat to humanity is ultimately a factual question not one of prejudice. What he did was expose the falseness of the idea that just because an activity was demanded necessarily meant that it was justified.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 01:56 PM

Of course it's true that the mere fact that something is demanded does not make the demand just. I was a five year old kid once upon a time, you know. And I've had a five year old kid whom I raised too.

If your argument is simply that to demand A does not make A valid--who can disagree with the truth of that proposition? But it's a very different thing to deny that gender is socially constructed. Where's the evidence? Where's the argument? Again, if your point is simply that to demand A does not make A valid, then we're on the same page. If your argument goes beyond that, then please clarify.

And don't mix in the rain forest thing. The thread is about the pope's assertion that gender (not sexual) differences are in nature, not in culture. That his holiness requires me to believe such an assertion does not make the assertion valid.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 02:35 PM

Quote:
If your argument is simply that to demand A does not make A valid--who can disagree with the truth of that proposition?

Unfortunately a few people on this forum... gay marriage is demanded so anyone who disagrees is homophobic.

Quote:
A does not make A valid... If your argument goes beyond that, then please clarify.

My argument doesn't go beyond it at any rate in this thread because I've already personally debunked several times on these boards the fallacious reasoning that equality requires men and women in all respects to be treated in the same way.

km
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 02:53 PM

What color is the sky in your world?

I've provided two definitions that any reasonable person would regard as synonymous (i.e. meaning the same or nearly the same thing) plus a reference that explicitly links them as synonymous -- I could provide many more form other reputable sources, but I'm not wasting my time ...

Yet you claim otherwise unless the definitions are *exactly* the same ...

Meh, this conversation once again reaffirms my belief that trying to have a fruitful or even logical discussion with you is often pointless ...

I'll leave it back to Steve and others to play your game ... Happy New Year!

=)
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 03:02 PM

Quote:
I've provided two definitions that any reasonable person would regard as synonymous

With respect you're missing the point... it doesn't matter how many synonyms the word has or how many definitions as long as I used one of 'em correctly - which I did. MrB's suggestion was that it only had only one meaning that necessarily involved disproof of something.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
If your argument is simply that to demand A does not make A valid--who can disagree with the truth of that proposition?

Unfortunately a few people on this forum... gay marriage is demanded so anyone who disagrees is homophobic.

km


I'm sorry, but the statement that you make here is not the same as the proposition with which I agree. I agree that to reject gay marriage is not equivalent to being homophobic--but that's very different from the statement that to demand gay marriage does not mean that gay marriage is valid.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 03:27 PM

Quote:
I'm sorry, but the statement that you make here is not the same as the proposition with which I agree.

I think we're at cross-purposes. The statement that

"gay marriage is demanded so anyone who disagrees is homophobic."

was a characterisation of the case put forward by other members to justify accusations of homophobia against all and sundry. I'm glad you disagree with it because so do I.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 03:48 PM

Wrong again. Gay marriage wasn't, isn't now, and won't be "demanded". Rather, the question of "why not?" was presented. And you stand accused of homophobia because a.) your comments on the topic have a decidedly anti-gay slant, and b.) though asked repeatedly to reveal your personal viewpoint on same-sex marriage — devoid of any interpretation of the law — you routinely base your answers on *drum roll* your interpretation of the law. DOH!
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 03:50 PM

Oh thanks a pantload, ya half a sissy! smirk grin
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 04:33 PM

Quote:
Wrong again. Gay marriage wasn't, isn't now, and won't be "demanded".

Wrong - gay marriage has been and is 'demanded' by many proponents both explicitly and by necessary implication. The rest of what you say requires repetition of what I've previously posted so I'm afraid it's a low priority.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 04:35 PM

As I said, thinking that gay marriage ought not be permitted is not the same as being homophobic. There are many reasons not to favor gay marriage, and homophobia is only one of them. That said, I'm still waiting for an argument in support of the pope's assertion that gender is innate, which is where the thread started. Let me quote to you a couplet from Sarah Fyge Egerton's "The Emulation," written ca. 1703:

Moses who first our Freedom did rebuke,
Was Marry'd when he writ the Pentateuch.

The gender expectations that Egerton lived under, she says, are mystified by religion and asserted as natural, but are really only a codification of male fears of disempowerment, as the subsequent couplet makes clear:

They're Wise to keep us Slaves, for well they know,
If we were loose, we soon should make them so.

The superstructure of social practices intended to keep females in their "proper" gender position is truly breathtaking and leads Egerton to wonder what would happen were those social practices undone. So, she asks, "shall these finite Males reverse their Rules?" and answers herself: "No, we'll be Wits, and then Men must be Fools." It's obvious that she's playing the same zero-sum game that, she says, leads to the gender rules in the first place.

But the underlying point seems to me entirely right: if the gender rules are removed, there is no "natural" gendered behavior. We've seen some of that come to pass already, at least in the more "advanced" societies where most of us live. For instance, I would say that almost 100% of my students simply do not understand the meaning of "feminine" that I, and most of us over a certain age, grew up with. Presented with the entrapment of women in the social practices of the 16th or 17th or 18th or 19th century, they are completely puzzled as to why the women don't simply give the whole business a Bronx cheer and move on. It takes a lot of teaching to make them understand the complicated social frame (what Foucault calls discursive practices) that makes it impossible for that to happen

My point? In disagreeing with his holiness, I adduce my own experience of the way gendered behavior has actually changed over the course of my 56 years of life and how gender expectations differ between two very different social systems, one Latin American and one North American. My conclusion, that gender is socially constructed, rises directly from that experience, buttressed by lots of reading. Why then should I believe the bare assertion that gender is innate?
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 05:51 PM

Hey, you're good, but I don't think you've quite yet put in the same hours sparring in Keymaker threads that spiral into oblivion ;-)

At any rate, I'm sure he'll come up with something wacky enough for me to reply, if only for entertainment =)
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/29/08 05:57 PM

Heh heh... I assume you're referring to the once and glorious MCF days. While I was still there, I just ignored most of those posts. Why I don't just do the same here I don't know. Ah well, siwwy widdle me.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 04:00 AM

Quote:
My conclusion, that gender is socially constructed, rises directly from that experience, buttressed by lots of reading. Why then should I believe the bare assertion that gender is innate?

I don't think one can say that gender is all socially constructed any more than one can say it's all hereditary. Since men and women bring different qualities to child-rearing for example on account of biological differences gender confusion whereby one or other is missing in the child's upbringing could be detrimental to his or her welfare in the sense that the best balance is denied.

km


Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 04:55 AM

Quote:
Since men and women bring different qualities to child-rearing
May I borrow one of your terms? Rubbish! What different qualities? List, please.

Quote:
biological differences gender confusion whereby one or other is missing in the child's upbringing could be detrimental to his or her welfare in the sense that the best balance is denied.
As you often proclaim, that's a load of crap! Best balance? Oh please, how many heterosexual couples screw it up for lack of balance? Neither one of us has time to tally the stats.

Gender, regardless of it's source, is a disposable (or even adaptable) attribute when it comes to child rearing. Your needle is stuck in the Men are from Mars, women are from Venus groove. You can't or won't acknowledge that, simply as human beings, two men or two women are capable of loving, nurturing, and facilitating the emotional well-being of children the same way a "traditional" pair of parents can. And you come by this assumption... how? On what indisputable facts do you base this position? Your own bias? Sorry, not nearly good enough.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 05:26 AM

Quote:
What different qualities? List, please.

Nurturing by breastfeeding, for example, the natural tendency of mothers to engage in more holding of infants than do fathers and the natural tendency of fathers to engage in more game-playing.

Quote:
Best balance?

That's right... breastfeeding and the holding tendency of mothers for example and game-playing by fathers.

Quote:
Gender, regardless of it's source, is a disposable (or even adaptable) attribute when it comes to child rearing.

Oh yeah I'm really looking forward to your example of male breastfeeding.

Quote:
On what indisputable facts do you base this position? Your own bias?

No, personal experience backed up by the research and conclusions of experts in the field.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 06:00 AM

So, by your logic, no breastfeeding = no chance of a normal upbringing? What's your story: none, or too much of it? I think you have a boob fixation!

When you buy something at the corner store (like, a carton of milk, for instance), do you ask for your change in nipples and dimes?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 06:24 AM

Quote:
So, by your logic, no breastfeeding = no chance of a normal upbringing?

Depends on what you mean by 'normal'. The benefits of breastfeeding are well known so it's a disbenefit to be denied it - for whatever reason.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 08:30 AM

LOL. By "normal" I mean average, not an axe murderer, not a raging sociopath, not a habitual child molester, not a scat freak... But you seem to imply that without breastfeeding, one is at great risk of being any one or combination of the above. You propose that a child not breastfed is doomed to social, physical, and intellectual failure. You hypothesize that the parent that does not breastfeed her child should have her parenting license pulled.

And BTW, do you apply this same rather narrow criteria to a lesbian couple? Or in that case do you assume that a lack of tossing a football around places the child at an insurmountable disadvantage? I mean, can your argument possibly be any more stereotypically stilted?

Did I say LOL?
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 08:39 AM

Quote:
Nurturing by breastfeeding, for example, the natural tendency of mothers to engage in more holding of infants than do fathers and the natural tendency of fathers to engage in more game-playing.


Verwey Interwesting.

2 more examples for each, please km.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 08:56 AM

It does get pwetty siwwy. Both of my girls are adopted. The oldest surrendered at birth to an orphanage in Bogota, the other abandoned on a dock near Wu Chang. Neither were breastfed — certainly not more than once or twice by their respective birth mothers, not while in foster care, nor after we received them. I guess that make our family dangerously unbalanced. Not to mention that any college savings will likely go, instead, to various psychiatrists, bail, and defense attorneys in the near future. *sigh*
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 08:57 AM

Quote:
Why I don't just do the same here I don't know. Ah well, siwwy widdle me.


Ah well, some people like riding carousels, too, even though all they do is go around and around and around and around ... ;-)

Fun to do sometimes, but at some stage ultimately becomes pointless ;-D
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:03 AM

True dat, doc. How much is my copay? wink
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:07 AM

If you have to ask ...

I'll definitely take payment in nipples and dimes, though -- sounds like fun!

=D
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:13 AM

You're not defending the pope's position, then? The pope seems . . . and I use "seems" quite literally, since there is no argument to speak of in the article . . . to assert that gender is natural, i. e. innate. You're not defending that? If not, then how can you say that the pope debunks anything?

edit: incidentally, your argument ca. breastfeeding has nothing to do with gender. It has a lot to do with sex. And yes, there's no doubt that the plumbing and accessories of the female are very different from the plumbing and accessories of the male. I will stipulate the sexual differences. I will even stipulate that gender is not entirely socially constructed. No one is foolish enough to argue for pure nature or pure nurture in these things. Except the pope, apparently. Again, what exactly has the pope debunked?
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:21 AM

Hey, get to the back of the line. km has to give me more examples before he can answer your questions. smile
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:27 AM

Quote:
LOL. By "normal" I mean average, not an axe murderer, not a raging sociopath, not a habitual child molester, not a scat freak...

Okay well by that standard everyone can provide normal parenting. My post was not about what's normal however but about providing the best balance for children.

Quote:
But you seem to imply that without breastfeeding, one is at great risk of being any one or combination of the above. You propose that a child not breastfed is doomed to social, physical, and intellectual failure. You hypothesize that the parent that does not breastfeed her child should have her parenting license pulled.

Oh dear I didn't mean to imply that... I was simply saying that gender qualities were in part hereditary.

Quote:
And BTW, do you apply this same rather narrow criteria to a lesbian couple?

I apply it to everyone.

Quote:
Or in that case do you assume that a lack of tossing a football around places the child at an insurmountable disadvantage?

Depends on what you mean by 'insurmountable'.

Quote:
I mean, can your argument possibly be any more stereotypically stilted?

Oh I don't think Field's work is stereotypically stilted but I'll take another look at it just to make sure.

Quote:
Did I say LOL?

You did but I don't think the Touch Research Institute (TRI) heard you or would take any notice if they had.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:34 AM

Quote:
2 more examples for each, please km.

Okay well the first few examples were provided free of charge but if you want any more you'll have to pay for 'em... and my charges are £999 pounds sterling per example - money up front.

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:36 AM

.....and he slithers like a snake. I win!
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:39 AM

Quote:
I guess that make our family dangerously unbalanced.

Oh I don't think so... I'm not aware of any research to suggest a dangerous imbalance in such cases, relax.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 09:41 AM

Quote:
I win!

No you lose actually because three examples are enough to prove my point.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 10:07 AM

Quote:
ou're not defending the pope's position, then? [

Certainly not. I think he might have reached the right conclusions by a different route than I would ever have done but I've only seen reports of what he said rather than the full text.

Quote:
incidentally, your argument ca. breastfeeding has nothing to do with gender. It has a lot to do with sex.

Well that's your opinion but I don't accept it. Mrs Keymaker says that breastfeeding is in part an emotional experience not just a mechanical process and Oxford says that gender means "the state of being male or female... chiefly in cultural or social contexts" the key word being 'chiefly' to mean not exclusively.

Quote:
Again, what exactly has the pope debunked?

I s'pose what he really debunked was idea that if something is demanded on grounds of equality for example it necessarily means it's justified. If it's considered harmful to humanity because it leads to global warming for example demanding the destruction of the rainforest might not be justified.

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 10:16 AM

3-missed them. Please repeat.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 10:23 AM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
Again, what exactly has the pope debunked?

I s'pose what he really debunked was idea that if something is demanded on grounds of equality for example it necessarily means it's justified. If it's considered harmful to humanity because it leads to global warming for example demanding the destruction of the rainforest might not be justified.

km


So what the pope has so thunderously debunked is a truism. Congratulations to his holiness.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 10:38 AM

Quote:
So what the pope has so thunderously debunked is a truism. Congratulations to his holiness.

If you mean that his position relied on a truism rather than that he debunked one I would agree - that's why I couldn't understand people wanting to challenge me over it - If ever an argument was doomed to failure it would be trying to disprove a truism.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 10:41 AM

Nurturing by breastfeeding, holding propensity and game playing.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 12:24 PM

Well, the heading of the thread no doubt led to the discussion, don't you think. The title says that the pope debunks "gender theory," not that he debunks the self-evidently illogical proposition that to demand something makes the object of the demand ipso facto a valid thing.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 12:33 PM

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, Yoyo... I always enjoy my discussions with you which usually provide quite a test in that you actually know what you're talking about!

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 12:47 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Nurturing by breastfeeding, holding propensity and game playing.

km


I was asking for 3 examples for each gender, not 3 combined.
Are you able?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 12:52 PM

Quote:
I was asking for 3 examples for each gender, not 3 combined... Are you able?

I am but 'in all seriousness' you'd have to pay for it because it would involve a degree of further research. eek

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 12:58 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
I was asking for 3 examples for each gender, not 3 combined... Are you able?

I am but 'in all seriousness' you'd have to pay for it because it would involve a degree of further research. eek

km



Are you on holidays now?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 01:02 PM

Sure am. smile

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 01:08 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Sure am. smile

km


Well, show us your compassionate side. How about a little pro bono and you do "a degree of further research"?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 01:10 PM

pro bono, I like it... give me 3 good reasons why I should?

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 01:13 PM

It is Christmas.
You are on holidays.
The third one will cost ya! smile
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 01:25 PM

LOL! I'll try to throw in a few more tomorrow... or the day after.

km
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 01:58 PM

Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year to you too, KM.
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 12/30/08 02:00 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
LOL! I'll try to throw in a few more tomorrow... or the day after.

km


I knew you had it in you.
Thanks km.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Love these conversations. - 12/30/08 02:01 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
What you call rude... What you call personal jabs are me calling you out on your obstinate dismissal of anything you don't hold up as reality.

Actually I wasn't referring to you... Mr B was commenting on the exchange between Yoyo and me and I was simply dissociating myself from his 'personal jabs' observation. That was Mr B's term incidentally not mine. Most people here seem to think that personal attacks are rude and unnecessary so if you think otherwise I'm sure we're all looking forward to your explanation.

km


Actually, I was referring to the whole thread not anyone or two or three individuals.You are right that "Personal jabs" was my term .

dave

Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/03/09 12:42 PM

Okay Lester, you wanted a few more examples of how men and women bring different qualities to child rearing on account of biological gender effects particular to their sex.

I could mention for example...

Father-absent aggression in boys

Fatherless boys as might exist in a home where parents are divorced exhibit greater levels of aggression encompassing anti-social behaviour than pertains in homes where the father was present. This was shown in a study by Santrock J W 1977 Effects of father absence on sex-typed behaviours on male children - Journal of Genetic Psychology.

Father-absent early heterosexual behavour in girls

Compared to girls brought up in a nuclear family where mother and father are both present teenage girls whose fathers are absent through divorce exhibit early heterosexual behaviour and attention-seeking from males. This was found in a study by Hetherington E M 1972 Effects of father absence on personality development in adolescent daughters - Development Psychology.

Child Intellectual advancement from parental role-reversal

Where the traditional roles of parents are reversed so that the father becomes the primary carer a child's intellectual development is enhanced and the enhancement is greater in girls than in boys. This was the conclusion of a study by Radin N 1982 Primary caregiving and role-sharing fathers - Child Development.

That's your lot because that makes 6 examples worth £5,994.00 pounds sterling which I've offered as a special favour to you under my pro-bono scheme. crazy

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 10:23 AM

Thanks for taking the time km.
IMO they all sound a little off-balance, and very old-1982,1977,1972.

Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 11:45 AM

Not to mention that divorce seems to be a central theme in those examples, and that's not the best comparison because of the stress and high emotion involved in such situations.

A child simply not having been breast fed, and a child in the middle of a parental conflict — possibly thrust into the role of pawn where one or both parents use him/her as a bludgeon against the other — are two very different models. The latter is invariably going to manifest a more profound emotional/behavioral response than the former.

Good thing you weren't charged for this research, or you'd be eligible for a refund. grin
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 11:53 AM

Quote:
they all sound a little off-balance, and very old 1982, 1977, 1972.

In case you're interested they're all decribed in: Schaffer 'Making Decisions about Children'. The second edition <--- is 10 years old and I've got the first edition! One wouldn't expect the findings to be any different today however since they concern very deep-rooted, almost primeval human behaviour.

Do you happen to work in the field?

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 12:06 PM

Quote:
Not to mention that divorce seems to be a central theme in those examples

It wasn't the central theme in any of 'em - just one instance of when such effects would occur. Don't worry, the researchers are all of world renown as experts in the field and all used controls in their research to eliminate distortion in the findings,

Quote:
Good thing you weren't charged for this research, or you'd be eligible for a refund.

Actually I provided it to Lester free of charge but you've most definitely got to pay for it - £5,994.00 smackers, 7 days. smirk

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 12:18 PM

Quote:
It wasn't the central theme in any of 'em
No? Then why is divorce mentioned in the first sentence of the first two of the three examples? And no links to further substantiate? Tsk, tsk. For someone who's always demanding that people cite evidence of their claims, you were a bissel sloppy on this one.

Quote:
you've most definitely got to pay for it
Since you're the breastfeeding authority, how about I pay you in nipples and dimes?
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 12:35 PM

Quote:
why is divorce mentioned in the first sentence of the first two of the three examples?

What I said in the first example was "as might exist in a home where parents are divorced" which is one example only of why a child may not his father in his life. The second study was confined to divorce cases which was a condition not a theme,

Quote:
And no links to further substantiate? Tsk, tsk. For someone who's always demanding that people cite evidence of their claims

I gave links where there were links and didn't when there wasn't. Not everything is on the internet you know. And unlike you I don't 'demand' links but request them when it would serve some constructive purpose.

km
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 12:39 PM

Hoi the loupom mikil bekerund the schalke min ropizot furkundit. Rata hande iro selim allere ne, werk ropizot volwonende — fan he — volwonende min. Rechtlika than an fremetgon scal ne than. crazy

The volwonende withirloop an vilo ne spraken fan, heilig behuodende tellunt ne hemiln wrisil in mundis noh. shocked
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 01:04 PM

Quote:
Do you happen to work in the field?


No. Just curious about your information source(s).
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 01:07 PM

Quote:
you'd be eligible for a refund.


And I would like it in Euros please. wink
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 11:49 PM

That's easy for you to say...
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/04/09 11:57 PM

My tuppence ha'penny: there's a huge body of evidence regarding the emotional difficulties caused by an absent father or mother while that parent is still actually physically present.

My point is that the trauma caused is overwhelmingly due not to the physical absence of the parent but to the absence of their love and attention. Give me loving caregivers of any gender (sorry, sex) over emotionally absent 'balanced pair' parents any day of the decade, please.
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 03:31 AM

Just wanted to see if he'd have an answer, but I guess I finally stymied him. wink
Posted by: steveg

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 03:45 AM

Exactly my position, too. I've known many same-sex parents and their kids. Nearly a third of my youngest daughter's classmates at P.S. 11 in Manhattan had two moms or two dads, or had single parents. There were very few axe murders and very little male or female prostitution among those fourth graders. wink (Although, during one birthday party at our apartment, one of the gay dads seemed unnaturally taken with our cockatiel! shocked laugh )

But, we all know what the root of these stats are. In fact, the thinly veiled rationale behind the inception of this thread is, well, thinly veiled. sick
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 12:07 PM

Quote:
My tuppence ha'penny: there's a huge body of evidence regarding the emotional difficulties caused by an absent father or mother while that parent is still actually physically present.

That doesn't negate the research I posted of course. The original point was not about competing drawbacks in a child's upbringing but what arrangement provides the best balance of influences. This is generally achieved by the presence of the mother and father because each brings different qualities to bear in the child's upbringing.

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 12:15 PM

Quote:
This is generally achieved by the presence of the mother and father because each brings different qualities to bear in the child's upbringing.


Well, it then follows that each "person" brings different qualities to bear in a child's upbringing. Two mothers, two fathers, an aunt, an uncle, a teacher etc. It is very likely that a child will interact with both genders on an equal basis irrespective of the parenting situation. Again, we come back to a loving, caring, protective home life - that is all that counts.
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 12:33 PM

Quote:
Well, it then follows that each "person" brings different qualities to bear in a child's upbringing. Two mothers, two fathers, an aunt, an uncle, a teacher etc. It is very likely that a child will interact with both genders on an equal basis irrespective of the parenting situation. Again, we come back to a loving, caring, protective home life - that is all that counts.

I feared the research would pass you by. Nurturing by breast-feeding for example can't be provided by fathers but game-playing and stimulation of cognitive growth which benefits all children but daughters more than sons is more characteristic of fathers than mothers. Such qualities are examples of gender specific differences which benefit the child in his or her upbringing.

km
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 02:05 PM

Originally Posted By: keymaker
Quote:
My tuppence ha'penny: there's a huge body of evidence regarding the emotional difficulties caused by an absent father or mother while that parent is still actually physically present.

That doesn't negate the research I posted of course. The original point was not about competing drawbacks in a child's upbringing but what arrangement provides the best balance of influences. This is generally achieved by the presence of the mother and father because each brings different qualities to bear in the child's upbringing.

It wasn't 'the original point', it was just your original point. I was making another.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 02:15 PM

His is not the?? Oh dear!
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 03:06 PM

Quote:
It wasn't 'the original point', it was just your original point. I was making another.

I'm not denying that in the context of field research you made an additional point but the original point which I made a few days ago was that the best parenting balance takes into account gender specific attributes of the parents.

km
Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/05/09 03:14 PM

Quote:
His is not the?? Oh dear!

No, he got it wrong... 'he' is the after all... the one who made the original point about field research.

km
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/06/09 09:41 AM

Quote:
Nurturing by breast-feeding for example can't be provided by fathers


Nor can/is it provided by all mothers for a variety of reasons.


Quote:
game-playing and stimulation of cognitive growth which benefits all children but daughters more than sons is more characteristic of fathers



So then the children of gay men, particularly daughters, doubly benefit by this.




Posted by: keymaker

Re: Pope debunks gender theory - 01/06/09 10:30 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Nurturing by breast-feeding for example can't be provided by fathers

Nor can/is it provided by all mothers for a variety of reasons.

True, true... in such a case the child has the best balance but not the maximum benefit from it compared to children able to breast-feed.

Quote:
Quote:
game-playing and stimulation of cognitive growth which benefits all children but daughters more than sons is more characteristic of fathers

So then the children of gay men, particularly daughters, doubly benefit by this.

That specific point isn't supported by the research I cited because it was only concerned with effects of the primary carer.

km