"A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech

Posted by: newkojak

"A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 11:15 AM

You Tube - Obama Speech: 'A More Perfect Union'<br><br>I have not watched the speech, but I read the prepared transcript (here) about an hour ago. What makes the speech interesting is the sort of 'all cards out' approach that Sen. Obama is taking. He does not leave any issue off the table and draws everything back into the narrative of his campaign. As a political speech from a political candidate, it's amazingly comprehensive, open, and argumentative. As the speech of a statesman, the jury may well be out but the fact that he sounds so 'presidential' is great.<br><br>It really highlights why I am so supportive of his candidacy. He is making an argument for his politics. How long has it been since someone did that? In Illinois, you would have to go back to Paul Simon.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U<br><br>EDIT: changed the text link from Tribune blog to Tribune proper<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by newkojak on 03/18/08 02:19 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: garyW

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 11:20 AM

I read this review, I think it says much of what I feel to. I hope Globalrolf reads this.<br><br><br><br>Andrew Sullivan from his blog on Obama's speech:<br><br>"Alas, I cannot give a more considered response right now as I have to get on the road. But I do want to say that this searing, nuanced, gut-wrenching, loyal, and deeply, deeply Christian speech is the most honest speech on race in America in my adult lifetime. It is a speech we have all been waiting for for a generation. Its ability to embrace both the legitimate fears and resentments of whites and the understandable anger and dashed hopes of many blacks was, in my view, unique in recent American history.<br><br>And it was a reflection of faith - deep, hopeful, transcending faith in the promises of the Gospels. And it was about America - its unique promise, its historic purpose, and our duty to take up the burden to perfect this union - today, in our time, in our way.<br><br>I have never felt more convinced that this man's candidacy - not this man, his candidacy - and what he can bring us to achieve - is an historic opportunity. This was a testing; and he did not merely pass it by uttering safe bromides. He addressed the intimate, painful love he has for an imperfect and sometimes embittered man. And how that love enables him to see that man's faults and pain as well as his promise. This is what my faith is about. It is what the Gospels are about. This is a candidate who does not merely speak as a Christian. He acts like a Christian.<br><br>Bill Clinton once said that everything bad in America can be rectified by what is good in America. He was right - and Obama takes that to a new level. And does it with the deepest darkest wound in this country's history.<br><br>I love this country. I don't remember loving it or hoping more from it than today."<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 11:31 AM

that's not Obama . . . i was lead to believe that he only speaks in that preacher sing songy manner. <br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 12:23 PM

A very very strong speech.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 12:41 PM

I just spent 40 minutes listening to Obama's speech when I should be writing a grant but I couldn't stop. That was an amazing speech. He left no stone unturned and he turned each one so well. <br><br>Thank you Fox News for repeating Wright's 10 second sound bite until Senator Obama had to give this speech today. For anyone who is offended at "Goddamn America" please do one thing. Watch this speech to the end. Do it for Ashley. Watch it and you'll know what I mean.<br><br>We can all do it for Ashley. Yes we can.<br><br>Senator Obama will not suddenly give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children. But it is where we start. He is talking about those things in a very honest and open way. Amazing. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 12:55 PM

The recognition of both (or rather all the myriad of) perspectives on the way that race works/fails to work in America is just so incredibly refreshing that it leaves me speechless.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 01:28 PM

You could sustain an entire semester course on race relations by just studying this speech. Can we as a people actually listen to it? Can we all take 37 minutes and 39 seconds out of our lives to listen to it and actually hear?<br><br>Someone's got to come up with a better copy. This CNN crawl with a sentence by Obama being typed in every few minutes as if this is a good way to comprehend. Are we this wedded to visuals we have to have this obnoxious screen clutter?<br><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 01:34 PM

<a href="http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MjI3MWMyOGFkNmQ2MGFjNzRhYzYwMGVhZWJhMjcyOGM=">from the national review</a><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Have I missed the competition? [Charles Murray]<br><br>I read the various posts here on "The Corner," mostly pretty ho-hum or critical about Obama's speech. Then I figured I'd better read the text (I tried to find a video of it, but couldn't). I've just finished. Has any other major American politician ever made a speech on race that comes even close to this one? As far as I'm concerned, it is just plain flat out brilliant—rhetorically, but also in capturing a lot of nuance about race in America. It is so far above the standard we're used to from our pols.... But you know me. Starry-eyed Obama groupie.<p><hr></blockquote><p>who is Charles Murray . . . wikipedia says:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Charles Alan Murray (born 1943) is employed at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank in Washington, DC. He is perhaps best known for his book The Bell Curve, co-authored with the late Richard Herrnstein, which discusses the role of IQ in American society. "The Bell Curve" generated substantial controversy for its statements about race and IQ.<p><hr></blockquote><p>guess that's a pretty good speech . . . presidential, you might say. <br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 01:51 PM

Even at barackobama.com the only video available is the same bad CNN copy.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: mojo_jojo

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 02:27 PM

I'd be disappointed with anything less than full body orgasms by some supporters after that speech.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 02:42 PM

I am trying to envision McCain getting a criticism like that after a speech and I cannot without six high priced hookers, a large container of Cool Whip, and a mute button somehow involved.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 02:51 PM

Leaving aside the rhetoric, which shows evidence of his having studied Cicero, what is there not to praise in the speech? Frankly, I am not an O'Dude, have been leaning towards Clinton all along, and still am. But Obama got the race thing dead cold, and only a . . . well, I won't characterize, but the person who sees a positive reaction to the speech as merely a physiological reaction, an orgasm, that bypasses the intellect is . . . well, again, I won't characterize.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:04 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I'd be disappointed with anything less than full body orgasms by some supporters after that speech.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Then don't miss the Hardball replay on MSDNC. Someone needs to get Chris Matthews a towel. <br><br><br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:17 PM

I am disappointed that you would rather attack Sen. Obama's supporters than talk about the substance of his speech.<br><br>That's fine though if all you want to do is expose your own preconceived notion.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:34 PM

The entire speech was about trying to shift the dialogue to sh[/i]it that matters and all we end up talking about is shi[i]t that does not matter.<br><br>Who had an orgasm. What talking heads are crying about (certainly nothing about content).<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:36 PM

I can't believe he threw Gradmama under the bus. <br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:50 PM

Aw, is that an echo? I could swear I read that very same expression somewhere...<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions – the good and the bad – of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.<br><br>I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.<br><br>These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't know if it is particularly ironic or just sad that a speech that talks of accepting people in their whole is so taken out of context.<br><br>These responses are predicated on two things though: people don't read, people are stupid.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:54 PM

I can't believe he said "curvaceous peaks of California."<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:55 PM

I haven't seen the whole thing, but I've heard many pieces... and I think he hit a home run !<br><br>Will everybody be happy ?? NO!<br><br>the extremists of each camp (the Wrights and the far right wingnuts) will still be pissy.... no one could win them over, but for the 60-70% in the middle - I think he struck a chord... even if they don't vote for him.<br><br>I have to say I'm dammed impressed... we haven't seen someone like him since JFK. (a President who can think- and thinks of the whole country first)<br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:57 PM

Yeah .. I still can't believe he threw Grandmama under the bus. <br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: Celandine

Familiar Ring - 03/18/08 03:57 PM

It does have a Familiar Ring to it... <br><br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 03:59 PM

You need to read the speech before you think that Reverend Wright would be pissy about the speech. The only ones pissy, including the right, are the ones who really refused to listen. Not really Obama's base. I think Obama continues to win over conservatives and cranky right wingers. If they are willing to listen.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 04:08 PM

So there?<br><br>Okay, so there. I suppose you could go read any number of blogs for reaction to the speech and ignore the spirit and the words themselves and be perfectly fine with it because it conforms to the viewpoint you chose beforehand. There are plenty of places to go, all just falling over themselves to determine your interpretation for you.<br><br>And it's easy.<br><br>It's much much easier to read and understand someone else's characterization in ten words or less. Then it's easier to hang on to some motto created in an echo chamber and sound to other people as though you have an opinion when you might not actually have an opinion. You might have someone else's opinion.<br><br>That's fine for some people.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 04:12 PM

That's the most striking thing about the speech and the posture that Sen. Obama is taking. It seems the most beaten track for a politician when challenged to just attack someone else or blame things on someone else. Sen. Obama's approach has been to explain, even if it seems miniscule. I hope people listen and interpret his words for themselves.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 04:18 PM

<center><br><br><iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/23691239#23691239" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe><br><br></center><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: mojo_jojo

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 04:40 PM

If it were anything but rhetoric I may have praise for Obama's words. It was an amazing speech from the sheer aspect that a modern politician talked about race openly and evenly. I do not discount the language that he used, artfully, to express the feelings of angst that many voters, white or black will identify with. But I do not think he accomplished his aim of distancing himself from the hatred that his pastor of twenty years has expressed. Prior to today, Obama has been able to transcend race as a candidate. If anything, whether intentional or not, he has now made made himself to be the black candidate. <br><br>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 04:52 PM

If that's your response than the next question is: what exactly did you want/need him to do?<br><br>I don't know what else Sen. Obama could have done to explain the differences between himself and his pastor other than what he did which was to lay out his vision of race in America and how the whole country could work on the problems together. If you could find some evidence of the same resentment and anger in Sen. Obama's record and his proposals, then perhaps he would have more questions to answer. However, the rhetoric he used today to describe his approach to race has been totally consistent with all of the messages in his campaign: to take resentments and fights to a broader context that affects the entire country.<br><br>It's strange to think that you are seeing him more now as the black candidate when he made an argument against identity politics that you seem to agree with.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: mojo_jojo

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 05:15 PM

I don't want him to be a liberal. I don't care what the man's skin color is. I just do care that his solutions are not the path's that I agree with. <br>His silence regarding the hateful rhetoric that has certainly come from Rev Wright is evidence. And his recent recognition of when the chips are down is disingenuous. <br>Inadvertently, this Rev Wright story is defining Obama as the black candidate. Obama needed the connection to the Trinity church for political expedience in his district early in his career. It made him legitimently black. That's okay. He had to make that connection and establish those relationships. <br><br>
Posted by: IMinTheWind

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 05:17 PM

That was a very eloquent speech. But where exactly does Obama stand on any of the very specific issues raised by Rev. Wright and his hate speech.<br><br>Until Obama addresses specifically his stand on 20 years of this doctrine, there will be an unending parade of questions.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 06:11 PM

There will only be an unending parade of questions from people who believe that Senator Obama has to explain every word of ever person he has ever had the courtesy of spending some time with.<br><br>These questions will come from that same group who cannot transpose themselves out of their lives and into the life of this man. It really shows a form of idiocy. That they can form only one thought. Until a Rush Limbaugh comes to tell them to think something else.<br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 06:34 PM

Until a Rush Limbaugh comes to tell them to think something else.<br><br>If you want to hear hate spewed.....<br><br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 06:38 PM

Empty suit, eh? <br><br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 06:44 PM

Funny how the far right never said SQUAT when Pat Robertson, and Jerry Fallwell spew hate sermons.<br><br>I totally don't agree with Wright but I think he's in the same "nut-boat" full of religious quacks as the Fallwells, Oral Roberts, and Robertsons !<br><br>Hallelujah !! brothers !! <br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: mojo_jojo

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 06:47 PM

Okay, I am willing to say it now. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are nutbars who never have nor ever will express the thoughts and beliefs of this conservative. I denounce and distance myself from each and every bite of hatred and vitriol that these weiners have ever said in the name of conservatism. I will not attend their church nor go along with their narrow minded views. <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 06:49 PM

Shoot, I go and post to a funny post which shows several links of bloggers using the "Throw grandma under the Bus" and by the time I reply (I'm watching Red Sox Classics) the post is gone.<br><br>Well here it is. I hate to waste my words.<br><br>---------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>How can I nail Mattmac112 or any of the other sock puppets here on that? MattMac112 could be the very first person who eloquently described Obama's speech today as "Obama throws Grandma under the Bus". Then all these bloggers plugged into the network picked up on this hilarious depiction of Obama actually throwing his old white grandmother under a bus and the cat is out of the bag.<br><br>Can the Mattmac112 that we have here think for himself and not copy and paste the wit and wisdom he finds from somewhere else or is he the origin? How do we know? <br><br>Thirty years from now we will know one thing. This speech will be known as the Obama Perfect Union Speech or it will be known as the throw granny under the bus speech. If the latter our Mattmac112 might be the one who coined the title.<br><br>Not.<br><br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 07:38 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Okay, so there. I suppose you could go read any number of blogs for reaction to the speech and ignore the spirit and the words themselves and be perfectly fine with it because it conforms to the viewpoint you chose beforehand. There are plenty of places to go, all just falling over themselves to determine your interpretation for you.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Hmmm .. I watched the speech live .. had a printed copy of the speech. I followed along as I listened and watched. Wrote my comments and reactions in the margins ... and when he threw his Grandma under the bus, I wrote "Damn, he threw Grandmama under the bus." <br><br><br><br>So, why don'cha dial your Obama man-crush defensiveness back just a tad.<br><br>Among other thoughts I jotted down during the speech today:<br><br>*Obama's speech was disappointing. <br><br>*Contradicted himself. Over the weekend said he wasn't aware of any controversial statements. Today admits he was. <br><br>*Never had a pastor come close to saying the hateful words similar to Rev. Wright's words (this is when Obama tried to link Wright's controversial remarks to those of "your pastors, priests or rabbis.") <br><br>*Touts good works of Rev. Wright as if excusing his comments. Would he be so willing to give Don Imus pass by looking at his past good works in order to excuse his ONE racist comment? <br><br>*Obama has a long connection with man he calls profoundly mistaken and word deplorable. Why? Wright didn't get this way overnight. <br><br>Obama's speech has raised more questions than answered. I'm getting ready to see how Network news covered his speech and watch the speech replay.<br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: garyW

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 07:38 PM

"Obama throws Grandma under the Bus", like this or this <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 07:40 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"Obama throws Grandma under the Bus", like this or this<p><hr></blockquote><p>HAHAHAHA! YES!!<br><br>I'm not the only one who was thinking it <br><br>Thanks for linking these!<br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: MikeSellers

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 07:57 PM

"I can no more disown [Jeremiah Wright] than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world . . . and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."<br><br>Well, I can certainly sympathize. I love my Dad but also cringe whenever he tosses out the "N" word, especially around my kids.<br><br>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 08:04 PM

You tossed off the same thought as a number of other people in the same words as a number of other people with the same glibness as a number of other people. I'm sorry for believing my explanation to be more plausible than your notes in the margins.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 08:09 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Funny how the far right never said SQUAT when Pat Robertson, and Jerry Fallwell spew hate sermons.<p><hr></blockquote><p>There is no moral equivalency here though. I'd prefer it that any self identified conservative here would not bother to mention Robertson and Fallwell because I would hope that those people would assume they not need to.<br><br>A big part of what has brought all of this about is the insistence that we try people in our court of public opinion by association. Obviously, you could debate the merits of a John McCain first denouncing Jerry Fallwell, then making nice in his next run for president, but it would be unreasonable for everyone to have to explain and denounce every single event that could be implausibly connected to his or her political philosophy.<br><br>If we are going to stop apologizing for politicians, we need to stop asking each other to.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 08:18 PM

Yeah, exactly.<br><br>This whole thing is rooted in the idea that you love people despite their imperfections. There is this incredible need in our current politics for pissing matches between our various outrage. Perhaps is the amount of gasbags on televisions or the preponderance of opinion being delivered as news, but it seems that so much of the oxygen in our philosophical arguments is taken up by whether or not someone has adequately attacked one thing or idea or person.<br><br>That is the exact challenge presented by Sen. Obama's speech. He is in a sense saying, "Yes, this is where I'm from. These are the problems with it. This is how we fix it." What he is doing is not politically "safe" because it is so straightforward and it took a lot of courage to do that.<br><br>I think that a lot of the less enlightening commentary on this speech will border on the absolute obtuse. I'm sure that people will pretend to not understand or take a selective interpretation from it. That's fine. Sen. Obama is a better man for having given this speech and the kind of voters that don't appreciate this kind of argument probably would never support him anyways.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 08:22 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You tossed off the same thought as a number of other people in the same words as a number of other people with the same glibness as a number of other people. I'm sorry for believing my explanation to be more plausible than your notes in the margins<p><hr></blockquote><p>Good for those numbers of people. I'm certain they and we all thought and said the same thing because .. well .. that's exactly what Obama did. Glib? Nah. It was shocking to see Obama tie his grandmother in with Rev. Wright. I say "shocking", but after all, Obama IS a politician. Power comes first. <br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: garyW

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 08:31 PM

Cary, your comment "...This whole thing is rooted in the idea that you love people despite their imperfection..." is why I posted Andrew Sullivan's quote in the beginning of this thread. To hear some of the condescending remarks made of Obama's comments only exposes how biased some people are, whether it's calling Obama a liar or taking his words about tolerance and acceptance of family and mentors and trying to spin it as something demeaning and hateful.<br><br>"He addressed the intimate, painful love he has for an imperfect and sometimes embittered man. And how that love enables him to see that man's faults and pain as well as his promise. This is what my faith is about. It is what the Gospels are about. This is a candidate who does not merely speak as a Christian. He acts like a Christian."<br><br><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/18/08 08:44 PM

nah, all he did is say we all have elders who grew up in different times and had different perspectives that we don't share, but that the inner person isn't bad because of their upbringing and skewed biases.<br><br>i still remember my grandmother wanting to go watch my high school play a basketball game and i drove her as she was old and frail nearing 80 at the time. i went to a high school where white students were less than 50% of the total student population. the second largest racial group was black students. we arrived and started looking for a seat. there was a group of black students taking up one section for about the first 3 rows. i guided my grandmother next to them and asked her if she wanted to sit right behind these students. in a voice that was far too loud she said, "no, i am too scared to sit near those blacks. let's go up higher." much of the group turned and stared and i could've just died right there. <br><br>we all have these experiences in one form or another and Obama was highlighting this commonality. i am not surprised that you're picking and choosing this snippet or that one to highlight and parse to try and appease your notions of what you want Obama to be. more power to you.<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 05:24 AM

Poly, <br>well I heard another long section last night driving home from class... he was talking about frustration in the black community... frustrations in the white middle class, affirmative action, etc.. <br> I think he nailed it... and his plea to work together for the good of all was well founded, and explained.<br>I'll try to get to the whole thing tonight... <br>the only part I think Wright might not be happy with is Obama denouncing parts of his sermon.... but I also have to say I heard a chunk of Wright's sermon and there is a lot of factual truth there... (about our history) ... it just was presented in too inflamatory way and his soultions/answers are quite different and radical from Obama's plea to become more united to better the country for all of us.<br><br>The right wing pundits and the "grandma under the bus" criers totally missed the big picture, but they're never going to admit anyone outside their narrow minded scope has anything positive to say or do anyway. H3ll my dad sometimes would use racial slurrs (not very often but rarely and most of the time in jokes), made me cringe just like Obama's grandmother, but you still loved them with all their faults. I totally empathesized with Obama there. and you can't pick your family... it is what it is !<br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 05:47 AM

YouTUBE has a good copy of the full spee... anywhere else.<br><br>Do yourself a favor... listen to it as a whole<br>before you hear it hashed to death all day <br>everyday ad nauseum, for months to come.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: eckhard

yo, bro'!!! - 03/19/08 05:51 AM

<br>[color:blue]These questions will come from that same group who cannot transpose themselves out of their lives and into the life of this man. It really shows a form of idiocy. That they can form only one thought</font color=blue><br><br>As you may have noticed, I'm holding back recently, which will probably mean this forum will be off-limit until November. ;)<br><br>However, this characterization of yours is way beyond mere elitism, in that it practically considers any objection to what your man is saying as idiocy. That, perhaps, is one element of this Obamarama, that is turning some people off.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 06:36 AM

I gotta say, that was a VERY good speech. I don't think I have ever heard a candidate give a speech like that!<br><br>Thanks for posting it because I hadn't really paid any attention to him (or anything political) but now I think I know who I'm going to vote for. <br><br>my photos
Posted by: polymerase

Re: yo, bro'!!! - 03/19/08 06:38 AM

Is it elitism to have the ability to put oneself in another's shoes and see life through their eyes? So be it. I find it a useful tool which allows me a way of focusing on problems in my daily life. It may seem harsh to call someone who cannot or will not do this an idiot but I believe it is a severe handicap.<br><br>I sit in a contentious meeting and my side is starting to yell. The opposing forces on the other side of the table are coming up with completely ridiculous bean counting restrictions and the science is going to grind to a halt. But by putting myself in their position, seeing the frightening consequences, the loss of turf and power, I can see why the hackles are up. So by doing this I can come up with a solution that puts them at ease, and their power and turf are protected. ( I can steal it later since now I know their weak points.)<br><br>When I wrote that line about transposing oneself into the life of another I was not thinking only of Obama. I was thinking of Cass in "Somebody in Boots" by Nelson Algren or "Native Son" by Richard Wright. I was thinking of taking those main characters and walking a mile in their shoes. To understand Obama you have to do that. To understand Wright you have to be in the pulpit in the South Side of Chicago. To understand why Obama will not stop loving Reverend Wright or his grandmother you have to do that.<br><br>What I was really thinking about when I wrote that was Joe South's tune "Walk a Mile in My Shoes".<br>[color:blue]<br>If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour<br>If we could find a way to get inside each other's mind<br>If you could see me through your eyes instead of your ego<br>I believe you'd be surprised to see that you'd been blind.<br><br>Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes<br>And before you abuse, criticize and accuse<br>Walk a mile in my shoes. </font color=blue><br><br>Am I elitist to think that the ability to walk a mile in someone's shoes is necessary to understand how the world works and that someone who cannot do it is an idiot? So be it. You aren't born with it. We are born self centered and the world revolves around our crib. Then some of us grow up. Idiots don't. A lot of the criticisms of Obama's speech are the criticisms coming from self centered children who cannot look beyond their own shoes. To be PC I will not call them idiots. Mentally challenged?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 06:44 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I gotta say, that was a VERY good speech. I don't think I have ever heard a candidate give a speech like that!<p><hr></blockquote><p> I got a couple of years on you. Memorizing speeches by King and Robert Kennedy were a weird past-time I had as a kid. That Bobby Kennedy gave one of his best extemporaneous speech just miles away from me in Indianapolis the night King was murdered made an impression.<br><br>All that and I agree with you. In its immediacy it rates number one. We will see how it wears. In five years it might not be number one in my book but I am sure it will make my top ten list.<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: eckhard

Re: yo, bro'!!! - 03/19/08 06:53 AM

<br>[color:blue]Is it elitism to have the ability to put oneself in another's shoes and see life through their eyes?</font color=blue><br><br>Of course not.<br>But it is elitism, to assume that just because someone disagrees with one's findings, he/she is lacking that ability.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: eckhard

you can't PICK an Grandmother!! - 03/19/08 06:59 AM

<br><br>The comparison between a minister and a close family member is silly: You can change church!<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 07:03 AM

Yeah, I was too young to hear King and Kennedy's speeches. Still to this day I have only heard snippets of Kings and none of Kennedy's.<br><br>my photos
Posted by: polymerase

Re: you can't PICK an Grandmother!! - 03/19/08 07:16 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br><br>The comparison between a minister and a close family member is silly: You can change church!<br><p><hr></blockquote><p> If you think Obama needs or wants to change church you are really missing the point. That you have not really thought about being a minister in the south side of Chicago. That Obama has no need to apologize for "God damn America" coming from a pulpit he sat in front of. If you think he should have gotten up in disgust and walked out as the criticizer's believe you are missing the point. <br><br>Obama does not need to change church. The Obama detractors are making that church and being a Christian who is black a liability. I think that is wrong headed and stupid.<br><br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: yo, bro'!!! - 03/19/08 07:22 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>But it is elitism, to assume that just because someone disagrees with one's findings, he/she is lacking that ability.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Some would also call it idiocy. ;)<br><br>I'm with you in that while we may look at the same things, we won't (and probably shouldn't) always come to the same conclusions.<br><br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!®
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 07:31 AM

In his speech, Obama tried to equate Reverend Wright's racist and anti-America comments to those of your pastor, priest or rabbi that you might've disagreed with. Well, in all my years of going to different churches, I've never heard a pastor or minister come close to the inflammatory words used and embraced by Reverend Wright. <br><br>Obama also tried to give "context" to those words by briefing us on the America Wright grew up in. He also touted Wright's good works. Was Obama so willing to give Don Imus's words "context" by looking at the America Imus grew up in? So willing to look at all the charitable and good works Imus has done? <br><br>Obama was also arrogant in his speech. He said:<br><br><blockquote>Trinity's services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear</blockquote><br><br>As if somehow we shouldn't find it shocking to see Wright making racist comments, and seeing the congregation laughing, standing and cheering. As if we should find it natural to see a minister denigrate a former President and first lady by simulating "doggie style sex" from the pulpit. No, we just have an "untrained ear." <br><br>His speech was disappointing. It could've really been a "speech for the ages" as Chris Matthews gushed. But it was a sad, missed real opportunity. Up to this point I had no opinion of Obama either way, but his excuse making and embracing of Reverend Wright turned the corner for me. <br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 08:38 AM

Thanks for posting a note. So much of politics and the postings here are a matter of inside baseball for those of us who obsess over the stuff.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: Clark

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 08:45 AM

[color:blue]"but now I think I know who I'm going to vote for. </font color=blue><br><br>That's an amazing statement but good for you. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 08:57 AM

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Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 09:05 AM

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Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 09:08 AM

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Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 09:10 AM

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Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 09:12 AM

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Posted by: eckhard

then he should go all the way! - 03/19/08 09:24 AM

<br><br>I'm with you: Obama shouldn't (have to) change church, he should (be able to) simply stand by his decision and by what Wright did indeed say.... if he considers it correct!<br>But I don't hear him do that. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: eckhard

please explain...... - 03/19/08 09:36 AM

<br><br>... what you mean to say. There must be more than just pointing out that the USA has a long racists history. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 09:37 AM

That first photo still makes me as sick as the day it happened. Quaint and tidy Boston showing the ugly underside during the bussing strife that wracked Boston, mostly South Boston, during that time. That black man in the three piece suit was I believe a lawyer walking out of Boston City Hall. He walked right into a bussing demonstration and that kid from Southie made himself famous by beating him over the head with the American flag.<br><br>Sad times. I can say only God damn all those individuals who perpetrated it. God damn the politicians that fed on that racist frenzy. One I remember clearly was the loathsome Louise Day Hicks. She came very close to becoming Boston's mayor in 1967. Many still consider her a hero. Not that long ago and lots of things have not changed. The vilifying of the Reverend Wright comes to mind.<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 09:44 AM

That's right Al, to liberals like you our country hasn't progressed from 232 years ago. Our country hasn't progressed from 125 years. Our country hasn't progressed from 45 years ago. Our country hasn't progressed in the last 20 years.<br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: polymerase

Re: then he should go all the way! - 03/19/08 09:46 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>. if he considers it correct!<br>But I don't hear him do that. <p><hr></blockquote><p> Did you read his entire speech?<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:03 AM

I think the problem Matt is that the country HAS tried to progress, to go beyond the past ..........<br><br><br>but some individuals haven't ....<br><br>their mindset is still in the 1700-1800's America ...<br><br>and they won't change til they die. <br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:06 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>but some individuals haven't ....<br><br>their mindset is still in the 1700-1800's America ...<br><br>and they won't change til they die.<p><hr></blockquote><p>And why Barack Obama would choose to embrace someone like that, for 20 years, is a legitimate question.<br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:12 AM

I am not denying that there's been progress. I am asserting that the past lives on into the present, hard as that may be for an American, for whom history is history, to accept. That first picture is from 1976. The picture of the noose on the office of the African American woman is from last year. The "anthropological" image is, as the heading says, from the 19th century. Do you really and truly think that all that history will simply disappear because you want it to? Shove it all under the rug and pretend that it doesn't still affect people's lives? Go ahead and pretend.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:12 AM

Listening to the speech, it didn't sound like he embraced what the preacher had said. In fact he denounced it.<br><br>My grandmother used to use the N word some times and I just shook my head because I knew it was pointless to try to "set her straight". But I still loved her even with all of her faults.<br><br><br><br>my photos
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:14 AM

Exactly right, John. And he also indicated that he can understand why his grandmother or his preacher might have the responses that they do because he understands why the past doesn't simply disappear with the wave of a presidential pen on an equal rights bill of some sort. To understand that is not to excuse, although it seems that some people are unwilling to make a distinction between understanding and excusing.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:14 AM

Not to defend him...and not saying shoving it under the rug is good...but perhaps if we could move on from the events of the past?<br><br>We can't change history. Ever. But, we can learn from it and try to improve ourselves. Will man ever do that? I highly doubt it.<br><br>my photos
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:16 AM

Welcome. I couldn't obsess over it because I have too many other things I would rather do.<br><br>my photos
Posted by: FSM

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:29 AM

that's just it . . . Barack provided evidence yesterday that he understands the underlying issues that are causing a person to have the biases they have; however, he also recognizes that these individuals are not bad people and can have much to offer beyond this carefully selected sound-byte or that one removed from their context. <br><br>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 10:41 AM

Exactly, it's an argument all about context and nuance on an issue that demands it, in a political world that has never heard of it.<br><br>I've read a few columns and it appears as though someone sent out the note to every opposite partisan columnist at every daily paper: "You need to show some respect for the rhetoric of the speech, but make sure that you act as though you don't understand parts of it or that you are personally unsatisfied with it. Say 'fell short' or begin a sentence with 'what he needed to accomplish.'"<br><br>The columns are all different, with different little angles, but there is one particular fact that unites all of them. They all completely ignore the nuance and most importantly the forgiveness and reconciliation that Sen. Obama argued for. And it makes sense. For most partisans approaching any speech by Sen. Obama with a preconceived notion, those people coming to it who already decided about Sen. Obama before they ever knew the name Wright, and most importantly those newspaper columnists, talk show hosts, and bloggers whose audiences expect them to dislike Sen. Obama, there is no such thing as nuance. There is no such thing as context.<br><br>Some of these people have made whole careers out of ignoring nuance and acting obtuse. This speech did not only address the specifics of Sen. Obama's vision of race, it talked about how people should address it... together. Amongst the most bile-filled corners of the political world, together is impossible.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: eckhard

because of Ashley.... - 03/19/08 10:44 AM

<br>yes I did listen to the whole thing. <br>No doubt, a great speech.<br>Yes, he does deal with race better than anyone else in politics before ..... so why do I still get that cringe feeling when he says something like "... even a candidacy as (forget the term) as mine."?<br><br><br>Well, let's hope this guy is for real.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: because of Ashley.... - 03/19/08 11:02 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>This is where we are right now. It's a racial stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy - particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.<p><hr></blockquote><p>What's wrong with pointing out that he does not want to be the great black hope, that he is not perfect?<br><br>He is trying to answer your concerns you raised a week ago. That his zombie like followers are going to be crushed when he doesn't fix everything right away.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"I'm here because of Ashley." By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.<br><br>But it is where we start. <p><hr></blockquote><p>And I think it is a great place to start. The best place to start. Not a place to start because everyone else is not as good and he is a little bit better. It is a great place to start because on so many levels he is head and shoulders above McCain. He is head and shoulders above all our politicians.<br><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: because of Ashley.... - 03/19/08 11:10 AM

the quote you're highlighting:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy - particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.<p><hr></blockquote><p>makes me cringe, too. i hate a candidate who admits imperfection. <br><br>go bush! <br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:11 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Listening to the speech, it didn't sound like he embraced what the preacher had said. In fact he denounced it.<p><hr></blockquote><p>But then he offered up an explanation for Wright, to give "nuance" and "context" for Wrights racist views, as if we should excuse bigotry based on the "context" of how that person was raised. If Obama had a problem with these views, if he denounces these views, why stay in that environment for 20 years? Why expose your children to those types of wild-eyed views for 20 years? These are the questions I had when watching the speech yesterday. <br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:13 AM

I certainly do not want to dwell in the past. But we can't simply forget it, because if we do we will misunderstand the present and screw up the future. <br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:16 AM

To quote the guy who, I assume, is your favorite president. "There you go again." To explain and contextualize is not to excuse. Why stay in that environment for 20 years? I wonder if you've actually rad or listened to the speech.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: eckhard

Re: because of Ashley.... - 03/19/08 11:17 AM

<br><br>... nah, just an unnecessary bit of coy self-depreciation that's kind of out of place.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:17 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Do you really and truly think that all that history will simply disappear because you want it to?<p><hr></blockquote><p>And as much as you would like it to be so, there aren't masses of Rosa Parks sitting at the back of busses in America in 2008. Yes, you still have your Archie Bunkers in this country. Until recently, one was preaching at Trinity United Church of Christ on the southside of Chicago. <br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:18 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to say Forget it. I meant move on. We should never forget history.<br><br>my photos
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:19 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> wonder if you've actually rad or listened to the speech.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yep. Sure did. Watched it live. Watched it again last night. Watched it again this morning. Still, those are the questions I have. <br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'
Posted by: Clark

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:27 AM

For a person who was going to scadoodle out of here, you sure have a lot to say.<br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:34 AM

Sorry, is that a bad thing?<br><br>I'm on spring break at school right now. I haven't been posting as much here any more but wanted to put my 2 cents in.<br><br>I'll head on out then...<br><br>my photos
Posted by: Clark

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 11:45 AM

[color:blue]"is that a bad thing?"</font color=blue><br><br>You know what they say about politics and religion. <br>To me this is not a fun forum. I can't take too much of it at one sitting.<br><br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 12:09 PM

Thanks for the higher quality feed.<br><br>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 01:11 PM

It's telling that you are attacking the idea of context as you act as though the entirety of a man is contained in the three or four most controversial clips of him speaking. Sen. Obama's answer to your very question is that you do not know the man any more than you know his grandmother for her small failings.<br><br>People are assuming that you have not watched or read the speech because you are ignoring large chunks of it that address all of this without the need for any kind of interpretation.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: IMinTheWind

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 01:50 PM

"A More Perfect Union" will not be made by a very disingenuous double-standard. I would have to assume that Barack Obama did not know this man any more than you know his grandmother for her small failings. <br><br>Presidential hopeful Barack Obama weighed in on Imus' remarks.<br><br>"The comments of Don Imus were divisive, hurtful and offensive to Americans of all backgrounds," said the senator from Illinois. "With a public platform, comes a trust. As far as I'm concerned, he violated that trust."<br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 02:09 PM

Give it up nk. You are talking to minds made up. A wall. No words from Obama or you are going to change that. Some words by a preacher in a church are enough to erase the presidential aspirations of any man or woman within hearing distance. Pretty amazing super powers this preacher has. Even when the aspirant condemns the words, that is not enough. He should have run from the building when that man spoke. Even though that man has been doing kind works and is spreading the teachings of Jesus. <br><br>If you are planning on running for President. This is what you must do if you hear any words that criticize our government. Jump from your seat and scream, "I condemn you." Then run away as fast as you can. Then you will be assured that these walls of criticism will never occur. That you will garner all the votes.<br><br>Not.<br><br>Meanwhile John McCain embraces the endorsement of John Hagee who hates you because you are Catholic. But he doesn't stop there. He hates muslims and gays too. But does McCain denounce Hagee? No way! That is his base. The same base that is all up in arms because of the reverend Wright's words.<br><br>To call this a double standard is completely unfair to the clear and concise way that Obama has explained everything in his 37 minute speech yesterday. We can wait for McCain's 37 minute speech explaining Hagee. Waiting for Godot.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 02:11 PM

You're welcome <br><br>The 3rd link to YouTUBE is also good quality<br>& Down-Loadable & Convertible for archiving<br>by using TOOBLE & PERIAN<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 02:22 PM

Waiting for Godot?<br>Good luck with that one <br><br>I'm still waiting for these fools to disavow the PINHEAD©!<br><br>[color:white]. . . . ..</font color=white><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 02:48 PM

For some, I don't think it has anything to do with Wright. For the most hard-bitten partisans, Wright is just the issue du jour over the last week to use in order to save their partisan face. More about this in another thread... <br><br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/19/08 03:29 PM

That sort of looks like a cross between Prince Philip and Mr. President Bush. Hmmmm . . . I bet they're related. <br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/20/08 12:57 AM

After seeing the extremely insensitive pictures posted in this thread, I withdraw all my discussion from here.<br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Shooshie on 03/20/08 04:00 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/20/08 05:47 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Wright is just the issue du jour over the last week to use in order to save their partisan face.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Interesting view. Watching the Daily Show and seeing all the clips of Republican attack dogs (one was Karl Rove! Is he a hired talking head somewhere?), saying "this could be very harmful". "this has legs", "could be a mortal wound to candidacy", "the middle class white will run from him", it sure is one hell of an issue du jour. <br><br>The only news I watch is through the Daily Show and that's usually saved up for the weekends so I am always behind on the video news cycle so it may look like more of a concerted effort than it is.<br><br>If it is a concerted effort it is a good ploy. A little more doubt and Clinton remains in the game and the Democrats continue squabbling for another month.<br><br>But I think they overplayed their hand and they over estimate the stupidity and racism of America. We aren't that stupid and we aren't that racist that we fear the words of one fiery preacher turning all who listen to him into hate whitey zombies. The only people who seem to be taken in by this ridiculous proposition are the 27 percenters. That segment of the population who still think all that is Bush is grand and that we we are planting flags of democracy in Iraq. Not Obama's base. Reading MacOSXAddict's post that he knows now who to vote for is better and more refreshing news than anything I have read in months. A rational and pragmatic person listens to a candidate explain his position and decides without listening to the spin. Could that be a trend?<br><br>God damn America, I think you have a chance!<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/20/08 05:48 AM

I know, that Zippy picture totally grosses me out too.<br><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/20/08 05:56 AM

7 months from now, the election will be held. that's a long, long time and as NK says, this is just the issue of the day. heck, 7 months ago i was reading that Rudy would beat Hillary if the election were held that day. what a difference 7 months can make. <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/20/08 06:10 AM

7 months or 28 weeks or 210 days. I can't believe they can come up with a new soup of the day for that long. The plan must be a new soup of the week. 28 soups.<br><br>1) Obama's preacher says god damn.<br>2) Obama is really a muslim<br>3) Did you hear Obama is black?<br>4) Black dad white mom. Picture the wedding night while looking at your white daughter.<br>5) B Hussein O plans to give back Iraq to the terrorists.<br>6) BO married a black woman.<br>... This is easy. I can get to 28 no problem.<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/20/08 07:14 AM

<br>[color:white]. . .</font color=white>"sssh...'B.O.' has Body Odor!" <br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/21/08 07:31 PM

What's with these US politicians referencing religion over and over in their speeches? Hello, this is the 21st century!<br><br>[i]Check out my sites on ads and design.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by iraszl on 03/21/08 10:31 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/22/08 08:26 AM

In a strange way, it's a part of American political tradition and every president has done it since the beginning of the 20th century. Maybe one day our political establishment will get back to honoring church and state separation, but right now we just have to be satisfied with the reference here and there.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: globalrolf

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/23/08 02:04 PM

"get back to honoring church and state separation"<br><br>When did we ever get "to" church and state separation?<br><br>Isn't referencing religion (or God, at least) a part of American political tradition since the beginning, like, say, the Declaration of Independence?<br><br>I think the term "church and state separation" is a little misleading, anyway, since there has never been any one denomination which has attempted to make itself THE state religion of the United States. So in that sense there has always been the separation. But if you mean separation of God and state, that never really got a foothold until the mid-twentieth century, when the Supreme Court attempted to make it the law of the land.<br><br>Better check your history if you think the U.S. had separation of God and state in the 19th or 18th century.<br><br>GBR (OFI)
Posted by: newkojak

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/23/08 07:37 PM

Once upon a time, Christian Evangelicals were the greatest proponants of keeping the government out of the affairs of their church and vice versa. The principles were that the presence of one would surely taint the other either through unwanted government control over worship or the faithful limiting our nation's liberties. Although reference for God has been shorthand in American political tradition for some kind of shared value system, it wasn't until the various communist scares that we started putting God's name on everything.<br><br>To say that we have never achieved some of our Constitutional values is true, but it is not an excuse to give up on principles that large parts of our country did have.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: globalrolf

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/28/08 10:34 PM

I'm just saying that "separation of church and state" only began to be used widely in the 1950s when the Supreme Court borrowed a phrase from a letter by Thomas Jefferson. Then in the 1960s the concept of removing reference to God in all public matters was established so that now even a prayer before a football game is "unconstitutional."<br><br>"In God We Trust" first appeared on U.S. coins in 1840, not in the 1950s. Grade school primers in the 19th century regularly used Bible scriptures to teach reading. Presidents from Washington on would publicly thank God. Thanksgiving was established in the 19th century as a holiday to thank God for his many blessings. The truth has been washed from our history classes if people now believe that God in government began in the 1950s because of some conjured up "communist scare." In fact, since the collapse of the Soviet empire, documentation has been obtained showing how extensive the Soviet attempts were to infiltrate, undermine, and steal classified information from the U.S. While some may have overreacted to communism, the threat was real. Whatever you think on that, it sure wasn't the beginning of God being brought into government and public institutions. People have fought against things like the removal of the Ten Commandments from courthouses because things like that used to be acceptable in previous years, not just something that started in the 1950s.<br><br>And today, some people seem to think we're a country established under freedom from religion and not freedom of religion. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>GBR (OFI)
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "A More Perfect Union" - Sen. Obama's speech - 03/28/08 11:18 PM

I know it's obvious, but everything below is bracketed by [IMHO][/IMHO]. I recognize that my language has an ex cathedra tone, though, which I don't know how to avoid--hence the disclaimer.<br><br>Freedom of religion has to be put in the context of the period in which the principle is being articulated and deployed. Now, although some of the most profound thinkers of the 18th century who contributed to the founding documents were Deists, I'll grant you that Deism is a sort of Christian heresy. So yes, the country was founded by people for whom "religion" meant Christianity, and who were large-minded enough to include Catholicism as a "Christian" faith (something that John Milton, political radical though he was a hundred or so years earlier, could not bring himself to do, as he makes very clear in his political tracts). In effect, that large-mindedness meant that the Christianity held in common by "the people" was at best pretty ill-defined. I mean, Presbyterians, "Independents," and Episcopalians had fought a horrible set of Civil Wars in England in the 17th century precisely because each confession wanted its particular brand of Christianity to be the definitive one. In the late 18th century in America, and maybe even through the early 20th century, pulling Christian punches was the way to prevent such a fiasco.<br><br>But by the 1960s it became obvious that "Christian" could not possibly describe the spiritual aspirations of the nation as a whole. If the state was not to "establish" a religion, then it could no longer simply assume that a generic "Christianity" was scattershot enough to accommodate all "the people." Jews certainly did not fit into such a scheme. Muslims didn't. Buddhists didn't . . . . And as the US became more and more varied there were more and more people for whom a generically "Christian" public discourse of spirituality just couldn't suit.<br><br>It would have been possible simply to ignore those folks and make believe that my having to say the Lord's Prayer in 4th grade, or to recite (ad nauseam) the 123rd Psalm in 5th grade didn't establish a religion. And, again, when "the people" were generally Christian, and there was no particular theological approach attached to the prayer or to the Psalm, that might have been true. But what about that Hindu boy who sat next to me in 5th grade. What was he supposed to think when day after day we recited the 123rd Psalm, which in principle violated his religious training and so imposed a state sanction on a particular spirituality . . . in effect "established" a religion precisely because it was so different from that boy's own religion that he couldn't just assume the generic similarity that Christians of all denominations could, simply because all Christians hold that verse in common? I suppose that that boy could just excuse himself from reciting the Psalm. But that "solution" doesn't solve the Constitutional problem: because of the changes in American culture, reciting the Psalm in practice establishes a religion, and that's clearly something that the 1st Amendment prohibits.<br><br>What is the SCOTUS supposed to do? Give a wink and a nod and let the violation ride?<br><br>One of the things that makes the American Constitutional system particularly genial is that it is politically and socially evolutionary. What happened to prayer in schools is the same thing that happened to the poll tax, or to the exclusion of blacks and women and 18-year-olds from the franchise. As the understanding of what "the people" means changes, so does the way that the Constitution is enacted change. I think on the whole the history of those changes has been a great thing, a tribute to the rationalism of the Enlightenment that undergirds the Constitution. There have been aberrations, like Prohibition, but those get corrected by the same evolutionary process. I hope some other aberrations get corrected soon . . . like the power that Mr. Bush has arrogated to himself of signing a law and, by means of "signing statements," nonetheless nullifying it. There's a Constitutional way to do that, called the veto. "Signing statements," as practiced by the current president, are IMHO unconstitutional. But I digress. (A nice 18th century habit, by the way, as anyone who's read Tristram Shandy will know).<br><br>If I were religious, I don't think I would be in favor of the public display of religion. The kind of generic Christianity that was acceptable in the 19th and earlier 20th centuries is, after all, neither hot nor cold--in New Testamentary terms, an abomination to be spewed out. But that's really the only kind of religion that could be exercised publicly without establishing a particular theological perspective on Christianity. And establishing such a theological perspective would have brought onto this continent the same excuse for religious warfare that defaced Europe from the 15th through the 18th centuries. If I were religious, I would want my religion unadulterated by political compromises.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>