news roundup - 9/ll

Posted by: keymaker

news roundup - 9/ll - 02/10/08 03:00 AM

The Sunday Times reports today that before President Dubya leaves office six al Qaeda suspects held at Guantanamo Bay are to face a military tribunal for plotting the 9/11 attacks. The only problems are that alleged confessions relied on by the prosecution are said to have been obtained through oppression and torture such as waterboarding and none of the defendants are being permitted access to independent counsel. The outcome will therefore be null and void. Following Michael Hayden's admission to Congress that waterboarding had been used at Guantanamo, a practice which contravenes the Convention Against Torture, the hearings can only add pressure for those crimes to be prosecuted at the International Criminal Court.<br><br>km<br><br>
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/10/08 10:21 PM

Americans & the UK are the ONLY dummies in the world, who think you can fight a war with rules. Waterboarding is lame compared to having your head lopped off by some Al Quaeda "freedom fighter" and then broadcast all over the internet. Psychological torture? <br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/10/08 11:33 PM

Yeah, rules are so inconvenient sometimes, and yet they've never been renounced. <br><br>km<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/11/08 03:36 AM

Well despicable acts are committed by many around the globe. these people are sub- human animals... <br><br>so you'd like us to stoop to their level?<br><br>Two regimes known for their atrocities were Nazi Germany and Tojo's Japan, yet we defeated them without having gas chambers, concentration or torture camps... and we were admired by the whole world for doing so.<br><br>I'm sorry Mongol... I don't think we need to be like them to defeat them. Makes us look like a bunch of lying hypocrits !<br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/11/08 04:45 AM

Weren't Japanese civilians in the US locked up in concentration camps? Ok, they weren't the death camps the nazis were running in Europe, but they were still concentration camps.<br><br>Also the Geneva conventions only covered how to treat soliders in uniform. Spies, sabateurs and partizans/freedom fighters were not covered and were not protected from being tortured. Also some soldiers captured were shot, against the GC, rather than taken back to secure areas behind the front lines.<br><br>I used to think it was terrible that life was unfair. Then I thought what if life were fair and all of the terrible things that happen came because we really deserved them? Now I take comfort in the general unfairness and hostility of the universe.
Posted by: DLC

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/11/08 12:11 PM

The Japanese were locked up in Internment camps and detained- they were provided for and were not tortured. Still Unjust !!<br><br>I think a societies morals can be judged by the way they treat the lowest members of the human race. Now I'll admit convicted terrorists probably deserve what they get BUT... many detainees haven't even seen a courtroom, needless to say Convicted . Confessing while under torture is not a legitimate confession. It's a sham of Justice... but then what else do you expect from George's gestapo ?<br><br>Maybe these guys are guilty, ...or maybe they just needed some scapegoats!<br>They way Bush does business, NO one can't tell.<br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/11/08 12:29 PM

Whilst I agree with the general thrust of your post, Mr President, I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that "convicted terrorists probably deserve what they get" because "convicted" assumes due process and equality before the law which is lacking in kangaroo courts and the definition of "terrorist" is cast so widely that it includes personages who are legitimately resisting or agitating against state-sponsored terrorism, war crimes and other illegalities.<br><br>km<br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/11/08 12:48 PM

If you become those you oppose, who are you to oppose after that?<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: MrB

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/11/08 01:43 PM

What you say about the interment camps is true but. It has been shown that much of the information about the placement of our warships was supplied by Japanese Americans in Hawaii. <br><br>Also, I would say that if German Americans physically looked different than the 'average' American at that time they would have been interred also. In fact I think many were harassed if not worse.<br><br>dave<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Mike

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/11/08 05:07 PM

"The World War II experience of thousands of German Americans, to most, is an unknown. During World War II, the U.S. government and many Americans viewed German Americans and others of "enemy ancestry" as potentially dangerous, particularly immigrants. The government used many interrelated, constitutionally questionable methods to control persons of German ancestry, including internment, individual and group exclusion from military zones, internee exchanges, deportation, repatriation, "alien enemy" registration, travel restrictions and property confiscation.<br>The human cost of these civil liberties violations was high. Families were disrupted, if not destroyed, reputations ruined, homes and belongings lost. By the end of the war, 11,000 persons of German ancestry, including many American-born children, were interned. "<br>Internment<br><br>[color:blue][/b]Hodie mihi. Cras tibi.</font color=blue>[/b]
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/13/08 03:56 AM

<br>WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS?<br>Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not<br>started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001?<br>Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania? Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?<br>And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet? Well, I don't. I don't care at all.<br>I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.<br>I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start<br>caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia.<br>I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for<br>hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling, slashed throat.<br>I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.<br>I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.<br>I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First<br>Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.<br>In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.<br>When I see a fuzzy photo of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been<br>humiliated in what amounts to a college hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.<br>When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.<br>When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.<br>And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and -- you guessed it!<br><br>"There are winter mornings when the cold without only adds to the warmth within, and the more it snows, and the harder it blows, brighter the fire blazes." -- Emily Dickinson<br><br><br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/13/08 05:41 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Ah, no. Now there you're being a little but too simplistic and starting history from the wrong date. Bin Laden has made it quite clear that the attack was carried out in response to the United States' complicity in the hideous crimes committed against Muslims, for example in Palestine and Lebanon. So you have to go back to at least 1982 when he developed an overwhelming feeling that injustice had to be rejected and decided to punish the unjust one after the US authorised certain towers to be destroyed in Lebanon causing much loss of life including women and children among the victims.<br><br>km<br><br>
Posted by: RedStudebaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/13/08 06:29 AM

The 9/11 commision answered all my questions! Including questions about Robert Wright, Colleen Rowley, Sibel Edmonds and Able Danger.<br>.....<br><br>Operation Gladio<br><br>This 3 part, 1992 BBC documentary uncovers at Operation Gladio, the American-led operation to establish a network of right-wing (often fascist and neo-fascist) paramilitaries in postwar Europe.<br><br>Initially conceived as a safeguard against Soviet invasion, Operation Gladio was used to manipulate domestic politics and keep the left from power - and may be behind some of the century’s most notorious terrorist attacks and political murders.<br><br>Part One: The Ring Masters<br><br>Looks at the establishment of the stay-behind networks during the liberation of Europe.<br><br>Download (50MB)<br><br>http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/01/27/operation-gladio-1.rm<br><br>Part Two: The Puppeteers<br><br>In the decades that followed, terrorist attacks and high profile assassinations set the pace of politics - what became known as the “strategy of tension”.<br><br>Download (50MB)<br><br>http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/01/27/operation-gladio-2.rm<br><br>Part Three: The Foot Soldiers<br><br>Investigates the role of the stay-behinds in a series of grisly murders in Belgium and the killing of a former Italian Prime Minister, as well as their infiltration of the extreme left.<br><br>Download (50MB)<br><br>http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/01/27/operation-gladio-3.rm<br><br>.............<br><br>Loose Change - Final Cut -<br><br>It's just not that easy to hijack four planes and crash em into known targets, especially the Pentagon.<br><br>Part 1 Download (50MB)<br><br>http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/01/23/loose-change-final-cut-1.rm<br><br>Part 2 Download (50MB)<br><br>http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2008/01/23/loose-change-final-cut-1.rm<br>.........<br><br>How could they not have known?<br><br><br>A Collection of Documentaries <
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/13/08 06:40 AM

Welcome aboard rX - I thought I recogniised the style! <br><br>km<br><br>
Posted by: RedStudebaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/13/08 06:47 AM

Thanks km! My other mm nik: Zapata_<br><br>Good to see ya!<br><br>A Collection of Documentaries <
Posted by: MicMeister

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/13/08 08:18 AM

Well then, go put that anger, frustration, vile, vitriol and determination of yours in use, why dont'cha. I'm sure the U.S. Army, or the Marine Corps for that matter, could use an able-bodied person of sound mind such as yourself so why no get yourself enlisted, Mongol? What's that? No?! Figured...<br><br>
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/13/08 10:40 PM

You shouldn't smoke so much of that stuff! I did over 13 years in the American special operations units, thank you. If more Presidents, like Reagan, would leave the little press pundits on the periphery (like we did in Grenada '83 - how much do you hear from the liberal news mafia on that little excursion? I'll tell ya "0"). Why don't you move from the safe confines of Scandinavia to Saudi Arabia, and see how far you'll get with your liberal ideas.<br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: DLC

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/14/08 03:16 AM

Well let me elaborate... by convicted I mean legally convicted , not water-boarded or railroaded , or a mock trial... I mean by the letter of the law.<br><br>Course if we had a leader with any integrity - we wouldn't have to nit-pick all this.<br><br>good point though.<br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/15/08 12:51 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Well let me elaborate... by convicted I mean legally convicted , not water-boarded or railroaded , or a mock trial... I mean by the letter of the law.<p><hr></blockquote><p> That deals with my first point but not my second - that in the West we classify personages as 'terrorists' when all they're doing is putting up legitimate resistance to our own illegal actions. It can't be right to ignore the wrongdoer but prosecute the innocent - it's not Alice in Wonderland.<br><br>km<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/15/08 03:55 AM

Yes I agree... same with Reagan in the 1980s and Central America regimes... <br><br>if they were resisting Communists- they were freedom fighters, <br>....if they were resisting right wing dictators we proped up, they were terrorists! <br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: lanovami

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/15/08 12:58 PM

Man, Mongol, I did not realize how one-sided it all was until you laid it out for us. More clusterbombs, more waterboarding, more political assassinations! That'll learn 'em. Fight terror with terror, that should be our motto. Just try to leave someone to turn out the lights when y'all are finished, k? Someon e will be along eventually to pick up the pieces, there always is.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/15/08 10:31 PM

Pretty simple, really! Remember, General Sherman ' "War is hell". This ain't "Alice in Wonderland". Again, "ALL is fair in love and war." Can you see the islamofacists, and other terrorists, giving our guys special food, and not desecrating a Bible, and providing free counsel, all the while their media is reporting about their improper treatment? I TROW NOT! Get your head outta the news mafia's propaganda, and look at the real world, or one day you'll wind up like Nick Berg.<br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: lanovami

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 12:00 AM

and not desecrating a Bible<br><br>Yeah, yeah all the talk about the Bible. Spend so much time worrying about it's desecration when people who thump in need to open it up and read it. Jesus goes on and on about loving and understanding one's enemy (and incidentally never says anything about abortion and homosexuality is only mentioned once or twice, and that's depending on how you interpret it).<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: DLC

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 02:04 PM

Yeah lanovami-- I especially like that part about killing your neighbor and stealing his resources... and using your fellow man to kill others and then abandoning them when they come home (VA)... you gotta read deeper into the "scriptures", man. <br><br>if anyone desecrated the Bible or Christianity it was Bush, Cheney, Rummy and Rice ! ... their acts have been despicable. ... and they lie to rationalize their subhuman BS and killings !<br><br>IF that's the "real world" then they... have turned it into H3LL !<br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: RedStudebaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 09:18 PM

Alice in Venus' Flytrap.<br><br>A Collection of Documentaries <
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 09:21 PM

Well, Lano, maybe one day you'll wake up outta this dream world you're in and learn to read English. It was your stupid islamofacists that got world attention because someone desecrated his koran - get the picture! Now, go back and reread the post, and maybe you'll see what I'm saying. ALL of you liberal God-haters are alike. There's no "interpretation" twisting in the Bible - abortion and sodomy are WRONG - like it or lump it, but you won't change it! <br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 09:23 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Spend so much time worrying about it's desecration when people who thump in need to open it up and read it.<p><hr></blockquote><p>LOL<br><br>My wife gives me sh!t about being an atheist, yet I know far more about the bible than she does.<br><br>Some of my favorite memories are screwing with the Bible thumpers that would frequent the subway when I used to ride it. Damn I made them look like fools. I felt like kicking them in the nuts.<br><br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!®
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 09:41 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Bin Laden has made it quite clear that the attack was carried out in response to the United States' complicity in the hideous crimes committed against Muslims<p><hr></blockquote><p>Please. He was rejected by some western [censored] while in college and he just couldn't let it go. It was his first shot at a piece of tail and he went down in flames, so he goes and recruits some dumbasses to knock down some buildings. Woo! That'll teach us!! <br><br>Instead he's just talented enough to lure these stupid islamic lemmings to do his bidding, because frankly he's too much a [censored] to do it himself. So he twists religion around and makes people think they'll get laid when they die when really there's nothing there because it's all a fairy tale. They've been lied to by a work of fiction called the Koran.<br><br>Maybe if he'd have been smart enough to jack off he'd have spared a few hundred thousand lives. Because really, that's the only thing he's accomplished. Killed hundreds of thousands of followers of islam. Dumbass.<br><br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!®
Posted by: Lea

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 09:54 PM

Hostile ~ wow. And you were so nice when I just figured you for a harmless but annoying RonBot. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:white]xx</font color=white>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: Centercentaur

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 09:56 PM

Mongol says: "I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of hiding in mosques."<br><br>Well, a guy wrote a letter to the editor in our local paper today; he said: "The word 'prey' made my blood boil as I read here today how the MQ-9 Reaper---capable of loitering in the air for 14 hours at 50,000 feet, controlled by pilots 9,000 miles away sitting in climate-controlled rooms---can stalk and kill.<br><br>"You know 'prey' ---fathers, mothers, sons, daughters. When OUR 'prey' comes home in a casket, we understand as a community the grief of those who lose a family member.<br><br>"The people of Iraq aren't like woodchucks or rabbits to be hunted down. They are people just as we are people. We should all be alarmed when our military and government want us to think that we are killing 'prey,' not people."<br><br>I thought this guy had a point. But I'd like to go a step further, and ask you, since you are so critical of the "cowardly so-called insurgents"---do you think it ISN'T cowardly to "fight" (if you can call it that) technologically backward people with unmanned predator aircraft? Since you condemn cowards, how does this type of activity fit in with your ideas? How do you explain to me that it is NOT cowardly to be slaughtering people from 9,000 miles away? And secondly, do you think that the third world people on the ground, who witness with their own eyes the work of these predator aircraft, do you think their admiration for us increases? Do you think that they would consider us BRAVE?<br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 10:15 PM

Straight out of Luke. This is one of only many places from the New Testament that say the same thing.<br><br>"Love for Enemies<br><br> 27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.<br><br> 32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.<br>Judging Others<br><br> 37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."<br><br> 39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.<br><br> 41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. "<br><br>I hate to be the one to break it to you, but this stuff counts even if they are "Islamofascists" who don't love you back.<br><br>Feel free to get back to me with all the parts about abortion, homosexuality and clusterbombing civilian populations in case any "bad guys" are living among them.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 10:40 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>so he goes and recruits some dumbasses to knock down some buildings...<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, but he got the idea after some other dumbasses knocked down some buildings in Lebanon. It takes one dumbass to impress another. When that happens the first dumbass has got just as much to answer for as the second so I was just saying that the so called 'war on terror' ante-dates 9/11.<br><br>km<br><br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/16/08 11:14 PM

Lebanon, and before that was...<br><br>Using that type of logic ultimately what you're resting your argument on is some fictional god who drove people to a land modernly known as Israel. Because that's where this all started. One "god" against another "god", even though in the end they're really the same work of uneducated fiction and people are too stupid to wake up and think for themselves. <br><br>Frankly that's as dumbassed as it gets. I have no sympathy for stupidity. Every radical islamist deserves to be waterboarded, along with Pat Robertson and every Jehova's witness who tried to sell me a half dead lily at the subway. <br><br>I'll gladly pour the water. <br><br>Strike that - the Jehova's witnesses pissed me off enough to recommend bamboo under the finger and toenails too. Let's take the kick in the nuts with steel toed boots reserved for Matt since he beat the deadline by 1 day and 1/10th of a cent and give them that too. Yes, I hate them that much. I know, hate is a harsh word. It's appropriate in this case.<br><br>Bin Laden I'll just castrate with a pencil. After I kick him in the nuts.<br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!®
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/17/08 01:05 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>ultimately what you're resting your argument on is some fictional god who drove people to a land modernly known as Israel<p><hr></blockquote><p>It's not my argument but bin Laden's - not about people being driven into Israel but the fact that Muslims have been attacked in such places as Palestine and Lebanon. It's still going on today as a matter of fact. <br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Every radical islamist deserves to be waterboarded<p><hr></blockquote><p> How do you define a radical islamist? What about someone wrongly accused of being one - what should happen to them? <br><br>km<br><br><br>
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/17/08 10:13 AM

The Lotfi Raissi story is horrendous - it's in today's Observer as well. That's the second time in as many days that the Court of Appeal has had to slap down incompetent government agencies for accusing innocent Muslims of involvement in terrorism. <br><br>km<br><br>
Posted by: Centercentaur

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/17/08 12:36 PM

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't so bad. They don't act like political fascists, at least.<br><br>A little story. Some years ago I had a student who was very interested in literature, and every day she'd come up after class with not one, but--really-- two or three questions, and good ones, and btw, she already had a 100% average, so she definitely wasn't trying to raise her grade---she just had a really strong curiosity about the subject matter (which happened to be Shakespeare). A couple of months later, a girl in the class had a broken leg, and needed someone to help her carry her books when she left early for the next class. Who helped her? The same girl who had been staying after to ask the questions. Helping that classmate was actually a real sacrifice for her, but she did it with absolute generosity and good nature.<br><br>That girl was a Jehovah's Witness. I never had a student that I admired and respected more than her. I'm not crazy about Jehovah's Witnesses (nor any religion) but after knowing her, I have never allowed myself to think poorly about Jehovah's Witnesses again.<br><br>
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/17/08 08:16 PM

I really don't expect you to understand this, but Jesus was talking to Jews BEFORE His crucifixion. There is no church doctrine in the gospels, because they're are NO Christians around at that time. After the crucifixion and resurrection, then the apostle Paul opens up the age of grace, and provides the correct doctrine for the church age. Of course, we can glean and learn from the beatitudes that Jesus spoke about. But Paul said: "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Timothy 5:8. So, by striking the enemy (islamofacists) that seeks my destruction (whether it's from 9,000 miles or 9 meters) is providing safety for my country and my family. By the way, the "peace-loving" ragheads used modern jets to attack us in NY, remember? Wake up!<br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/17/08 09:43 PM

And here I thought Paul opened up the age of spiritualized neo-Platonism. Sheesh . . . live and learn!<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/17/08 10:58 PM

"Of course, we can glean and learn from the beatitudes that Jesus spoke about."<br><br>Glean? What could you possibly have "gleaned" from Jesus' words, written in red in many Bibles that would justify your vitriol expliciting stating the exact opposite of the words you claim to revere? <br><br>Even OUT of context your Timothy I verse is the lamest excuse for an argument for Condeming, Hating and Killing Thy Enemy that I have ever heard. IN context, it's laughable:<br><br>From Timothy I 5:<br><br>3<br>Honor widows who are truly widows. <br>4 <br>But if a widow has children or grandchildren, let these first learn to perform their religious duty to their own family and to make recompense to their parents, for this is pleasing to God. <br>5 <br>The real widow, who is all alone, has set her hope on God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. <br>6 <br>But the one who is self-indulgent is dead while she lives. <br>7 <br>Command this, so that they may be irreproachable. <br>8 <br>And whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. <br>9 <br>Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years old, married only once, <br>10 <br>with a reputation for good works, namely, that she has raised children, practiced hospitality, washed the feet of the holy ones, helped those in distress, involved herself in every good work. <br>11 <br>But exclude younger widows, for when their sensuality estranges them from Christ, they want to marry <br>12 <br>and will incur condemnation for breaking their first pledge. <br>13 <br>And furthermore, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers but gossips and busybodies as well, talking about things that ought not to be mentioned. <br>14 <br>So I would like younger widows to marry, have children, and manage a home, so as to give the adversary no pretext for maligning us."<br><br>Widows is the best you can do? This is your justification for ignoring the words of Jesus Christ that don't fit your personal agenda? And you accuse me of twisting words? And while we are on the subject: Do you plan on following the pronouncements above that are, let's be clear, about widows (not Islamofascists), to the letter? Or do you just plan on picking out the lines that let you spread your message of Hate and ignoring the rest?<br><br>You took so much time boning up for a decent reply that you neglected to do the actual homework assignment I gave you, please go back and read the instructions again.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/18/08 07:59 PM

Nuke 'em till they glow & shoot 'em in the dark!<br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: ichi

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/18/08 08:18 PM

an eye for an eye (edit/correction: eye for an eye seems incorrect, you advocate preiminent (first strike) destruction of your "enemies"), is that your way of defending christ, your family, your church and your religion or is it just your need to get even and to dominate every living thing?<br><br>you aren't a christian, you follow the devil.<br><br><br><br>"fly peacock, fly."<br><br>[color:red]Libertarian Communist</font color=red><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by ichi on 02/19/08 01:26 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/18/08 09:22 PM

Ah Mongol, what is one to "glean" from your words of wisdom? <br><br>Good luck passing on your "what the Bible tells us about warmongering" tripe and I hope all those widows in your family are being taken care of.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: ichi

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/18/08 10:41 PM

the hearings can only add pressure for those crimes to be prosecuted at the International Criminal Court.<br><br>amen. when do the above prosecutions start, or have they already begun by other, nontraditional, methods?<br><br><br><br>"fly peacock, fly."<br><br>[color:red]Libertarian Communist</font color=red>
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/18/08 10:50 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>prosecutions... already begun by other, nontraditional, methods?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, non=traditional first followed by traditional a bit later on. <br><br>km<br><br>
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/19/08 08:16 PM

ROMANS 12:18 - If it be possible , as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.<br><br> We tried, but the islamofacists wouldn't let us.<br><br> In this war on terror, where the enemy/prey/whatever takes innocent people (Korean Christians, journalists, construction workers, etc - i.e. NONCOMBATANTS) and chops their heads off, and you think we're supposed to bend over and afford them US Constitutional legal protections? Are you terminally stupid or what? Wake up, Dude!!!<br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/19/08 08:35 PM

Aww c'mon. Surely history is more complicated than "we're the good guys and we tried but they didn't like us and hit us so now we have to nuke 'em."<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: ichi

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/19/08 08:52 PM

haha. ok. ;-)<br><br><br>"if you wish to fear nothing, consider that everything is to be feared." <br><br>[color:red]Libertarian Communist</font color=red>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/19/08 11:47 PM

Studied up and come back for more? I don't think so. Your last response to my rebuttal was "nuke 'em til they glow". Your short and sweet concession speech. Check and mate. Mongol lost, for all to see. <br><br>If you wanna play again let's try tic tac toe; I'll even let you have the first two moves.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: Lea

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/20/08 06:23 AM

Gracious offer, but still way over his head.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:white]xx</font color=white>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/21/08 06:29 PM

MacMinute liberals - last of a dying breed!<br><br>I've joined the RON PAUL REVOLUTION - www.ronpaul2008.com
Posted by: Lea

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/21/08 06:33 PM

RonBots ~ Irrelevant.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:white]xx</font color=white>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/22/08 12:15 AM

Following a series of very public and very appalling scandals, the United Nations has come under increased scrutiny. In recent years it has promised to clean up its act, and has enacted new policies and procedures meant to restore its credibility. Unfortunately, it would seem those reforms have done little to purge the international organization of corruption and waste.<br><br>Last year, in an attempt to reform its corruption-rife procurement system, the UN blacklisted a number of vendors. Among them was an Italian company called Corimec, which gave bribes to UN officials in exchange for lucrative contracts. However less than one month after it was removed from the UN's list of approved vendors the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) purchased several million dollars worth of goods from Corimec. According to FOX News, the UNDP knew that Corimec had been blacklisted, but decided to use them anyway: "…UNDP officials declared that as a legally separate UN agency, they were not bound to honor the Procurement Service sanction…[this is] particularly significant, because the UNDP is the premier agency through which the UN operates on the ground in most of the 160 countries that it services." These events prompt us to wonder if the UN is really serious about cleaning up its act.<br><br>The procurement service scandal is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. The pattern of corruption in the UN is widespread. A recent internal audit of the UN mission in Sudan, conducted by the UN Office for International Oversight Services, found that the organization has wasted tens of millions of dollars over the past three years. Auditors found "potential fraud indicators and cases of mismanagement and waste" as well as "dozens of irregularities" in how the money was spent - money that should have been used to help the people of Sudan. According to a recent article in the Washington Post, "UN officers in Sudan have squandered millions by renting warehouses that were never used, booking blocks of hotel rooms that were never filled, and losing thousands of food rations to theft and spoilage."<br><br>Hundreds of thousands of people in the Darfur region of Sudan have been slaughtered, and millions have been forced to flee their homes. The Islamic government that controls Sudan has been accused of genocide, but the United Nations has yet to take decisive action to stop the bloodshed. For the past five years they have done little but deliberate, procrastinate, and make empty threats.<br><br>The United Nations was created to maintain international peace and help solve the world's economic and humanitarian troubles, but the UN has failed time and time again to accomplish its primary objectives. The UN is plagued by scandal, widespread corruption, favoritism, and financial mismanagement. Furthermore, through its misconduct, negligence, and complacency the UN has aided terrorism and oppression worldwide.<br><br>It should come as no surprise, that amidst the scandals that have engulfed the UN, the organization has announced plans for a massive overhaul. The huge reforms will be unlike any changes made since the organization was founded in 1945. Historically, government never downsizes voluntarily; it always increases its power and minimizes accountability to its citizens. Government reinvention is frequently an effort to avoid the consequences of failed policies in the past, or to justify a government's continued expansion by posing solutions to the problems it has created.<br><br>Over the last decade, the United Nations has unabashedly pushed for what it calls "global governance." The UN is positioning itself for real global power and it has become evident that they will use the scandal and the ensuing "reforms" to advance closer to that goal.<br><br>Wonder why President Reagan wanted to chuck this behemoth, that does nothing, sucks up American dollars, and promotes mucho conflicts instead of preventing them? Hmmmmm......<br><br>A government that is large enough to supply everything you need is large enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
Posted by: keymaker

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/22/08 06:16 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>UN is plagued by scandal, widespread corruption, favoritism, and financial mismanagement. Furthermore, through its misconduct, negligence, and complacency the UN has aided terrorism and oppression worldwide.<p><hr></blockquote><p> I agree. All those resolutions against Israel for example and no effort whatsoever on the part of some nations to see any of 'em implemented. Of course, like any organisation the UN is only as good as its members and, to be honest, they've been collectively pretty cr@p when it comes to the diversion and dissipation of resources. In that context one thinks immediately of Iraq where some nations were insisting on futile gesture politics and rattled on for months and months about weapons of mass destruction when nearly all of us realised that there weren't any. If only they had listened to the French and Russians the UN would have come out of that debacle with credit instead of, as it proved, discredit and humiliation for wasting all that time and money when it could have been doing something constructive in honour of the Charter.<br><br>km<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/22/08 06:50 AM

That description of the UN sounds like the description of any government.<br><br>Incidentally, do you have a source for the quotation allegedly by Jefferson that's in your signature? I don't recall ever seeing it in Jefferson's writings--but I'll admit I'm not a Jefferson scholar, so inquiring minds want to know.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: Mongol

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/22/08 10:10 PM

In his autobiography, he mentions this statement in a letter to William H. Cabell, dated June 29, 1807.<br><br>A government that is large enough to supply everything you need is large enough to take everything you have - Thomas Jefferson
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/23/08 07:15 AM

Thanks<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: Centercentaur

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 08:02 AM

"A government that is large enough to supply everything you need is large enough to take away everything you have."<br><br><br>I don't care if the "letter to William H.Cabell" was dated "June 29, 1807 at 2:31 PM EST," that could NOT be an actual QUOTATION from Jefferson. Why? Well, obviously because of the casual usage of "everything YOU need," and "everything YOU have." That usage of "you" (instead of the third-person "one") is characteristic of the 20th Century, not 1807. Any educated person from that era would say "large enough to supply everything one needs;" there is NO WAY that Jefferson would have used "you" like that.<br><br>So if this is a quotation from an actual dated letter from 1807, I find strange, to say the least, that "Jefferson" writes as if it is 1957. <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 09:01 AM

I'm bored sitting in terminal B so I looked up all of Jefferson's letters. On that day he did indeed write to Cabell but you astutely foresaw that the quote is bogus. When I first started looking I started with "bogus quotes" + jefferson. The guy is buredened with the highest number of bogus quotes out there on the interenet.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 09:02 AM

part II<br><br>Thomas Jefferson<br>TO GOVERNOR WILLIAM H. CABELL. &#8232;WASHINGTON, June 29, 1807.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 09:03 AM

partIII<br><br>SIR, — Your favor by express was safely received &#8232;on Saturday night, and I am thankful to you for the &#8232;attention of which it is a proof. Considering the &#8232;General and State governments as co-operators in &#8232;the same holy concerns, the interest and happiness &#8232;of our country, the interchange of mutual aid is &#8232;among the most pleasing of the exercises of our duty. &#8232;Captain Gordon, the second in command of the &#8232;Chesapeake, has arrived here with the details of that &#8232;affair. Yet as the precaution you took of securing &#8232;us against the accident of wanting information, was &#8232;entirely proper, and the expense of the express justly &#8232;a national one, I have directed him to be paid here, &#8232;so that he is enabled to refund any money you may &#8232;have advanced him. <br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 09:04 AM

partIV<br><br>Mr. Gallatin and General Dearborn &#8232;happening to be absent, I have asked their &#8232;immediate attendance here, and I expect them this &#8232;day. We shall then determine on the course which &#8232;the exigency and our constitutional powers call for. &#8232;Whether the outrage is a proper cause of war, belonging &#8232;exclusively to Congress, it is our duty not to commit &#8232;them by doing anything which would be to be &#8232;retracted. We may, however, exercise the powers &#8232;entrusted to us for preventing future insults within &#8232;our harbors, and claim firmly satisfaction for the past. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 09:05 AM

partV<br><br>This will leave Congress free to decide whether war &#8232;is the most efficacious mode of redress in our case, or<br>whether, having taught so many other useful lessons &#8232;to Europe, we may not add that of showing them that &#8232;there are peaceable means of repressing injustice, by &#8232;making it the interest of the aggressor to do what is &#8232;just, and abstain from future wrong. It is probable &#8232;you will hear from us in the course of the week. I &#8232;salute you with great esteem and respect.<br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 09:06 AM

the Dulles internet gerbil is still on strike so I could not post more than a 100 words in one post. <br><br>Plus I am bored out of my gourd. <br><br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 09:28 AM

I'm hung over and trying to avoid working. I appreciate your help and sympathize with your boredom. How's the food?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:white]xx</font color=white>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 09:30 AM

The dictional difference is an excellent point, and I had my doubts on different grounds, namely that the idea of a government that could provide all one's needs is not an 18th or early 19th century idea. I was going to check the citation once I could get to a library (I know, I'm so old-fashioned), but not that poly's done that the new-fangled way, I'll leave it alone.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: news roundup - 9/ll - 02/24/08 10:13 AM

The new fangled way was actually to find a photostat copy of an 19th century book with a copy of the text of the letter. I was about to transcribe from it since I could not copy paste but luckily spied a "convert to text" button. <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

where to Mongo? - 07/04/08 04:08 PM

By reading the very end of this thread which contained Mongol's last posts here one might think it was me that scared him off. But I only showed that even his signature was a full of sh[/i]it as his posts. <br><br>Reading the whole thread it is lanovami who handed the as[i]s his hat.<br><br>