Five will get you ten.

Posted by: steveg

Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 05:55 AM

I think the talk of a multinational force has to become the fact of a multinational force. Now! <br><br>Hezbollah knew full well that when it kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers that the response would be disproportionate. It's what Israel does. A slap will get you a punch in return. A bullet will get you a grenade in return, and so on... But at this point, the argument over justification or not has to be tabled in the interest of stopping the killing. On both sides. Just because Hezbollah knew what it was doing when it provoked this mess, doesn't excuse Israel's 10-fold force policy. <br><br>Hezbollah is not going to release those soldiers any time soon. And Israel is not going to ground it's jets until they do. So the only way to protect innocent lives is to get a powerful security force in there immediately. This will not be a long-term fix. That's a bigger conundrum. But the dying has to stop now.<br><br>Does this mean I'm buying the IronChef's POV? Not a chance. Israel is not a terrorist state. But I do believe that the longer this conflict goes on, the worse it will get. For everyone.<br><br>
Posted by: Topper

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 06:14 AM

You may be (probably are) right but secretly I am enjoying Israel kick Hezbollah and Hamas butt. <br>OMG, I'm a warmonger.<br><br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 06:27 AM

Problem is way too many civilian — and especially children's — butts are getting kicked too.<br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 06:31 AM

Just when things looked like they were turning around for Lebanon...<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 10:31 AM

Israel is not a terrorist state.<br><br>Try telling that to a Palestinian.<br><br>Apologies in advance for the copy/paste, but this came via a listserve without a linky:<br><br>Bishop Riah, the Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem, 25 July, 2006<br> <br> <br> <br>Bishop Riah on the current crisis in the Middle East<br> <br> <br>Dear Friends,<br> <br>For the past forty years we have been largely alone on this desert fighting a predator that not only has robbed us of all but a small piece of our historic homeland, but threatens the traditions and holy sites of Christianity. We are tired, weary, sick, and wounded. We need your help. <br> <br>We have seen and we have been the recipients of the generosity of our American and British friends. We cherish the support of everyone throughout the world who stands with us in solidarity. Daily, I hear from many of them who express outrage at the arrogant and aggressive positions of President Bush, Secretary Rice, Senator Clinton, and Prime Minister Blair. I am saddened to realize just how much the deserved prestige of the United States and Britain has declined as a result of politicians who seem to devalue human life and suffering. And, I am disturbed that the Zionist Christian community is damaging America’s image as never before.<br> <br>Little more than a week ago, we were focused on the plight of the Palestinian people. In Gaza, four and five generations have been victims of Israeli racism, hate crimes, terror, violence, and murder. Garbage and sewage have created a likely outbreak of cholera as Israeli strategies create the collapse of infrastructures. There is no milk. Drinking water, food, and medicine are in serious short supply. Innocents are being killed and dying from lack of available emergency care. Children are paying the ultimate price. Even for those whose lives are spared, many of them are traumatized and will not grow to live useful lives. Commerce between the West Bank and Gaza has been halted and humanitarian aid barely trickles into some of the neediest in the world.<br> <br>Movement of residents of the West Bank is difficult or impossible as “security measures” are heightened to break the backs of the Palestinian people and cut them off from their place of work, schools, hospitals, and families. It is family and community that has sustained these people during these hopeless times. For some, it is all that they had, but that too has been taken away with the continued building of the wall and check points. The strategy of ethnic cleansing on the part of the State of Israel continues.<br> <br>This week, war broke out on the Lebanon-Israeli border (near Banyas where Jesus gave St. Peter the keys to heaven and earth). The Israeli government’s disproportionate reaction to provocation was consistent with their opportunistic responses in which they destroy their perceived enemy.<br> <br>In her recent article, “The Insane Brutality of the State of Israel,” American, Kathleen Christison, a former CIA analyst says, “The state lashes out in a crazed effort, lacking any sense of proportion, to reassure itself of its strength.” She continues, “A society that can brush off as unimportant an army officer’s brutal murder of a thirteen year old girl on the claim that she threatened soldiers at a military post (one of nearly seven hundred Palestinian children murdered by Israelis since the Intifada began) is not a society with a conscience.” The “situation” as it has come to be called, has deteriorated into a war without boundaries or limitations. It is a war with deadly potential beyond the imaginations of most civilized people.<br> <br>As I write to you, I am preparing to leave with other bishops for Nablus with medical and other emergency supplies for five hundred families, and a pledge for one thousand families more.<br> <br>On Saturday we will attempt to enter Gaza with medical aid for doctors and nurses in our hospital there who struggle to serve the injured, the sick, and the dying.<br> <br>My plan is that I will be able to go to Lebanon next week - where we are presently without a resident priest - to bury the dead, and comfort the victims of war. Perhaps as others have you will ask, “What can I do?” Certainly we encourage and appreciate your prayers. That is important, but it is not enough. If you find that you can no longer look away, take up your cross. It takes courage as we were promised.<br> <br>Write every elected official you know. Write to your news media. Speak to your congregation, friends, and colleagues about injustice and the threat of global war. If Syria, Iran, the United States, Great Britain, China and others enter into this war - the consequence is incalculable. Participate in rallies and forums. Find ways that you and your churches can participate in humanitarian relief efforts for the region. Contact us and<br>let us know if you stand with us. I urge you not to be like a disciple watching from afar.<br> <br> 2 Corinthians 6.11<br>“We have spoken frankly to you Corinthians, our heart is wide open to you. There is no restriction in our affections, but only in yours. In return - I speak as to children - open wide your hearts also.”<br> <br> <br>In, with, and through Christ,<br> <br>The Rt. Rev. Riah H. Abu El-Assal<br>Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem<br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by MacBozo on 07/30/06 01:35 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 10:59 AM

Interesting read. Thanks. And frankly, a Palestinian is among the last persons I'd try to convince otherwise, because from his perspective, Israel has committed terrorism against him. In many ways, "terrorism" is a matter of perspective.<br><br>Israel does not employ suicide bombers. Israel does not use human shields. Israel does not indiscriminately kill thousands of it's own people — in the name of martyrdom — to get to it's enemies. What Israel has spent most of it's time doing for the past several years is responding to terrorism.<br><br>Yes, they have grossly over-reacted too many times. And sadly, they have done so under the noses of and with the enablement of the U.S. and Britain.<br><br>I am not proud of how they've conducted themselves. But I won't buy the argument that they're THE aggressor. That they're THE terrorists. What I will not excuse Israel for is allowing groups like Hezbollah to push their buttons when restraint and reason should have been the default response.<br><br>
Posted by: Topper

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 11:31 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Try telling that to a Palestinian.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people who made Hamas the majority party of the Palestinian Legislative Council.<br>No where in the article is Hamas mentioned.<br>What did they (the Palestinian people) expect when Hamas kidnapped the Israeli soldier?<br>With Hamas in power did they think that good times were ahead? <br><br>
Posted by: Topper

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 11:38 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>What I will not excuse Israel for is allowing groups like Hezbollah to push their buttons when restraint and reason should have been the default response.<p><hr></blockquote><p>What response did you expect from Israel when Hezbollah kidnapped two of their soldiers?<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 11:52 AM

That's my point. The response was disproportionate. Worse, it's the expected response. And Hezbollah has effectively exploited it. If Israel wanted to really diffuse Hezbollah's mission, they should have taken a less strenuous approach. The corner they've painted themselves into now is that they are trying to vaporize Hezbollah on their own as quickly as possible. And the fact that it's not working is just exacerbating the physical and PR wars. In the meantime, more and more innocent lives are being lost in the process.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 02:16 PM

<br><br>I found the entire article, that turned out to be written by a former CIA <br>analyst that had been stationed in the Middle East for the last 30 years.<br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 02:28 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>What response did you expect from Israel when Hezbollah kidnapped two of their soldiers? <p><hr></blockquote><p>These are SOLDIERS we're talking about, not civilians, <br>...it's called "captured" not "kidnapped"<br><br>Also, one can very well, turn it around and inquire;<br><br>What response did you expect from the Hamas<br>when Israel bulldozed occupied dwellings and took<br>over 8,000 people, and held them in Guantanamo <br>like conditions, many of them being women, and<br>children under 18 years of age, Some of which <br>have been held for years, without trial or charges.<br><br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 03:49 PM

Like I've said before, Israel has terrorized the Palestinians for many years, not with suicide bombers, just through a policy of inhuman oppression. Wonder why they fight Israel? Look at our own civil rights movement which was tame by middle-eastern standards.<br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 04:06 PM

The really scary thing is, it sounds like the Bush administration. <br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 04:23 PM

<br>noticed that too, huh? <br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 04:56 PM

My folks aren't from the MiddleEast, they're from Birmingham, Alabama,<br>and yes, I remember the Selma Marches, The Murder of the Freedom Riders,<br>The Bus Boycott, and the March to Montgomery all too well. I was only<br>8-12 at the time, but it left quite an impression.<br><br>You can tell that it left a mark, since I still take sides with "the UnderDog"<br>to this day. I will always detest those that take pleasure in abusing others.<br><br>Like here in the forum, I've always been able to take care of myself. Bullies <br>don't scare me, they merely p-ss me off. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Topper

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/30/06 07:26 PM

That's where you would make a good diplomat and I would not.<br>If it were my decision I would do exactly as Israel is doing.<br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 03:49 AM

"If it were my decision I would do exactly as Israel is doing."<br><br>If it were your decision would you do exactly as Hezbollah is doing?<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 05:33 AM

You're allowed your opinion,<br>as I (for one) am glad to be allowed mine (for once)<br>without being set upon with hateful accusations to shut down any discussion,<br>...or hateful remarks, tossed out out like "chum" in the water, simply to draw a reaction...<br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 05:56 AM

What exactly is Israel doing? IMHO, the same as we're doing in Iraq, which is to increase the number of people willing to become active terrorists. The idea that you can get rid of terrorists by killing them all is just plain wrong. It has never worked and never will.<br><br>. . . . . Here's lookin' at [color:red]you</font color=red> kid.
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 06:01 AM

I know the question wasn't necessarily addressed to me<br>however, since it was you, whose innocent questions<br>opened this can o' worms, (FINALLY got us talking)<br>It made me think about it for the first time...<br><br>I suppose so....<br>just as I'll remain a "Liberal" even though I'm certain that the Neo-CON Death-Cult<br>is destined to remain in power. Or a Member of the French-Resistance in the face<br>of NAZI Superiority. I'd be a "Patriot" if we were again fighting for our Freedom <br>over Tyranny in America.... and as a Patriot I will continue to question and test<br>The-Powers-That-Be until they do right by not only American Citizens, as well as<br>the members of the Global Community, but by the PLANET ITSELF. <br><br>HEHEHE OK, the "Superman" thing was over the top... but seriously...<br><br>You don't have to be a Super Hero, (OR A "Nazi" or a Terrerist") to be able to<br>look around and see what's going on in the world without a sense of outraged. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Topper

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 06:03 AM

The big difference to me is Israel was provoked by Hezbollah.<br>We invaded Iraq.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 06:07 AM

Who provoked whom is a matter of when you start reading the history.<br><br>. . . . . Here's lookin' at [color:red]you</font color=red> kid.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 06:11 AM

I ditto YoYo2.... it's like the Hatfields and McCoys...<br>so many "tit-for-tats" who knows who started it?<br>point is BOTH are wrong and the methods BOTH use won't work!!<br><br>IF they did, the conflict wouldn't be there. QED !! <br><br>That is the bottom line.<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Topper

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 06:15 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>If it were your decision would you do exactly as Hezbollah is doing?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Hezbollah is considered by the US, Canada, and Israel to be a terrorist organization. <br>Hezbollah receives financial, political, and military funding and training from Syria and Iran.<br>I would not belong to a terrorist organization to begin with so your question is moot.<br><br><br>
Posted by: Topper

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 06:28 AM

All you people can be indignant if you want.<br>I'm sitting back with my shoes off and watching Israel do her thing.<br>So sue me for being a Neanderthal.<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 06:48 AM

You picked the right side.<br>That's not saying the correct side<br>...merely "THE RIGHT" side. <br><br>I'm certain your side will triumph.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 08:37 AM

I'll probably catch some heat for this, but I really don't care.<br><br>This is exactly why you annoy the hell out of some people here. NOBODY has ever shut you or any discussion down. No one has that authority or ability. People may disagree with you. They're even allowed to ridicule what you (or anyone else says) if they so choose, wrong or right. They may rib you (or others, too). But no one — not even you — has ever had their right to an opinion revoked.<br><br>Yet, as we are witnessing in this very thread, you turn the topic to poor victimized you. You accuse others of making "hateful" remarks when it is you who routinely responds to even perceived or suspected digs in a manner reminiscent of Israel's overkill. Vile names. Crude character references. And overt personal attacks.<br><br>Why don't you just stop it already. You are your own worst enemy!<br><br>There. Now you can accuse me of derailing another thread.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 09:36 AM

I love it.<br> Holds up the mirror:<br><br>I'M The "VICTIM"?<br><br>"Ribbing"? Anything you say, "CHUM" <br><br><br><EMBED SRC="http://idisk.mac.com/heyjac/Public/jawstheme_s.wav", WIDTH=300, HEIGHT=200 CONTROLLER=TRUE AUTOPLAY=FALSE> <br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 09:47 AM

<br>LOL well that dint last long<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 09:55 AM

Didn't think you'd get it.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 10:06 AM

Oh I got it.<br>You're still a liar.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 10:15 AM

I am? How's that, pray tell?<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 10:23 AM

<b style="color: red; font-size: 350%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">When All Else Fails[/b]<br><br><br><b style="color: red; font-size: 900%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">BLAME [/b]<br><b style="color: red; font-size: 900%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">the[/b]<br><b style="color: red; font-size: 900%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">VICTIM![/b]<br><br><b style="color: red; font-size: 300%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">You do it CONSTANTLY[/b]<br><b style="color: red; font-size: 350%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">and I'm TIRED of it![/b]<br><br><br><b style="color: red; font-size: 250%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">WHat the HELL are You?[/b]<br><b style="color: red; font-size: 250%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">A FIVE YEAR OLD?!?!?![/b]<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 10:29 AM

Don't you mean, When you can't prove a point, resort to bold red display type! ?<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 10:34 AM

You're one exasperating SoB<br><br>Is that what they did to Hezbellah?<br>Just keep PUSHING & PUSHING & PUSHING!<br><br>That certainly adds a bit more insight to the situation.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 10:41 AM

And I'm ugly, too!<br><br><br><br>(Adds to the effect)<br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 11:46 AM

"What exactly is Israel doing? IMHO, the same as we're doing in Iraq, which is to increase the number of people willing to become active terrorists."<br><br>And from Bin Laden's POV, it is proving the point that the US is blatantly financing and supporting the Zionists in their persecution and subjugation of Muslims in Lebanon, thereby rationalizing his view and bringing ever more soldiers to his cause as well.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 12:09 PM

Celandine, I mean this in the best way possible.<br><br> <b style="color: red; font-size: 350%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">When All Else Fails[/b]<br><br><br><b style="color: red; font-size: 900%; font-family: 'Helvetica'">RELAX![/b]<br><br>Regardless of any claim to past grievances you may hold, anybody who spends more than a little time (or even just a little time) in this forum knows you got it out for Steve and you follow him all over this forum to do it. People can only judge you by your actions (as some people have been pointing out about my sig lately) and that's what you show people here. You research your positions you have taken here well enough, keep doing that and try leaving the people that grate on you so automatically alone for a while. <br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Five will get you ten. - 07/31/06 11:04 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>I think the talk of a multinational force has to become the fact of a multinational force. Now!<p><hr></blockquote><p>I disagree.<br><br>Peace should be simple, if it's not then relive the 'War to end all wars" - WW I and<br>have a mass killing fest.<br><br>There is no need for a multinational force. Every country that participated in World<br>War I should collectively tell everyone in the Middle East to simply to 'Knock it off'<br>and then say, look we're idiots, we killed 25 million people in World War I and learned<br>nothing and started World War II. The only thing you should learn from us<br>is we haven't killed each other in WW III, but vicariously watched you people in<br>the middle east kill each other for the last 30 years.<br><br>Attention Middle East: Stop being the 'entertainment' for the West. It's your lives not theirs.<br><br><br><br><br>[color:red]Allez Cuisine! Bang a gong, it is on</font color=red>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Five will get you ten. - 08/01/06 02:41 AM

Gawd buh-less youse! If only it were that simple.<br><br>You get the leaders of every warring nation into a conference room. You pass out the coffee and donuts. You tell few jokes. Then you put your foot down hard:<br><br>"LISTEN UP YOUSE LOSERS! YOUSE STOP THIS STUPID FIGHTING. YA HEAR ME? SHAKE HANDS YOUSE SORRY MUGS. NOW GO HOME AND BEHAVE YOURSELVES!"<br><br>Then a car backfires on your street and you wake up. <br><br>Not dissing you IC. But if it were that easy (and you'd think it would be), it woulda happened a loooong time ago.<br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Five will get you ten. - 08/01/06 03:32 AM

Wow! You're off the mark, Kiddo.<br><br>I suggest you go back and check<br>who is dogging who.<br><br><br><br>