Which will happen First ?

Posted by: DLC

Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 04:31 PM

they uncover who blew the NSA spying cover ? <br><br>Or who leaked Plame's idenity?<br><br>any speculations?? <br><br>I'm waiting for the right wingers to explain how outing Plame and her covert company was "no problemo", but telling they NYT the NSA was spying on citizens is ! <br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 04:53 PM

Another angle is what else might be revealed before the fan finally stops spinning. The Plame thing was bad juju. The NSA gambit is really scary. What else might be going on that we don't know about yet?<br><br>Maybe nothing (hopefully). But these guys seem to respect no boundaries.<br><br>Having said that, maybe I don't want a new iMac after all. Who knows what that iSight is really connected to! <br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 04:56 PM

...or Google Mail...<br><br>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 05:52 PM

There's no telling when anything will come down, but I agree with what seems to be your assumption here: that the Department of Justice is going to go full steam on the NSA leak probe for political reasons.<br><br>As far as the Bush Administration's rhetoric is concerned, the advent of a new leak couldn't come at a better time because it puts Bush on the other side of the issue. Now, instead of being the perpetrators of a leak, they can be a righteous victim of such a shameful act. They need badly to combine the two leaks in people's minds.<br><br>The CIA leak was an instance in which the government manipulated the press to ruin a person's career. The NSA leak was an instance in which someone in the government knew of a violation of the Constitution inside of government and exposed it. A bold line between manipulation and whistle-blowing does not serve the President because it makes people judge for themselves right from wrong. If the Bush Administration can just come down hard on "leaks," they can spare the embarrassment of having purposefully started one so long as they can superficially seem to enforce law and order in the end. As an added bonus, Bush can also harp on national security, despite the fact that the NSA activities (without easily obtained court order) are an unnecessary trampling of Constitutional rights.<br><br>The main problem that the Bush Administration is going to face with anything he says though is that people probably aren't going to believe him. He's not the most popular guy right now and the next year does not bode well his whole power structure with all of the Republican scandals set to come to a head next year. There is a lot of talk about a power shift in Washington in the next election and that talk is all based on current polling numbers. All of that pessimism about Republicans doesn't even start to address the troubles of Tom DeLay, Bill Frist, and more importantly, Jack Abramoff.<br><br>Lately, we've seen the significant weakening of the Bush apologist as more conservative voices turn to caution and issues. Next year, the Bush apologist simply won't exist and his cult of personality will be totally disbanded.<br><br>-- Charlie Alpha Roger Yankee Whiskey
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 06:18 PM

AFAIConcerned...<br><br>until they push through some sort of voter reform with teeth<br>~ A PAPER READOUT RECEIPT ~<br>We'll continue to spin our wheels Following Every "Election".<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 07:09 PM

I totally agree with your "whistle blower" vs vindictive leak comparison- two different motives, and I hope the American public will see that!<br><br>I heard the other day on the radio that Fitzgerald has sent out several letters of inditement.. from 1-5. They received them last Friday but they won't be announced until a Press conference to be this coming Thursday. Early hints was that Rove was definitely one, but there may be up to 4 more besides him.<br><br> I also heard/read Abramoff made a deal and several (6 -12) Congressmen may be involved... not just DeLay... I would bet most, if not all, are GOPers - Not to pick on them but Abramoff was a GOP fund raiser... so it suggests most would be in that "camp".<br><br>This can't be good for Bush or the GOP controlled Congress. To be fair, I would NOT be surprised if some Dems are doing the same thing.. I think the whole body is basically corrupt !! I have never felt it was all GOP - they just seem to be more arrogant and blatant about it the past 4-5 years.<br><br>I never had "rose colored" glasses on to say all GOPers are "bad" and all Dems "good" which is what the Bush apologists say - of course in reverse. Nothing is ever that "clear- cut"- it's always more complicated. I have posted a lot about Bush's bad behaviors and decisions, but I don't believe he's the only problem in Wash., DC. Congress is just as bad - Bush is just more visible because he's the President. Nevertheless, he has lots of company for being short-sighted azzholes.<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 07:18 PM

The whole NSA business makes for an interesting constitutional question. If you know that the government is doing something that is illegal, but it covers the action under the national security umbrella, does it become impossible to bring the government to justice?<br><br>. . . . . Here's lookin' at [color:red]you</font color=red> kid.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 07:36 PM

yeah, the Ultimate Catch-22 !!<br><br>excellent point !!<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 08:22 PM

I wouldn't be surprised to see any Democrats get caught up in this either, but there is something you are forgetting. A hallmark of both Tom DeLay and the new GOP power seat's business practices is that they refuse to work with any lobbyist unless that lobbyist exclusively deals with Republicans. So in their zeal to corner the market on peddling influence, they may have also contained all or most of the corruption.<br><br>(Wait, aren't peddling influence and corruption the same thing? We live in some pessimistic times, don't we?)<br><br>If I were making predictions, I'd say whatever damage the Democrats endure from any current corruption investigation will be totally insignificant compared to what the Republicans are going to go through. Hopefully everyone who did anything gets caught, but I think people living in Democratic districts can rest without too much worry that their representative will be embarrassed or run out of town.<br><br>The thing is, the Democrats have already been through all of this with the likes of Dan Rostenkowski and the Congressional Post Office Scandal of the 1990s. So if you're wary of Democrats as well of Republicans, you have a damn good reason to be. I just hope that the power shifts within the Democratic Party have promoted some better leadership while they have been out of power in the House.<br><br>-- Charlie Alpha Roger Yankee Whiskey
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 09:08 PM

Hmmmm, I hadn't considered the K Street takeover in the context of lumpin' all the rats onto one ship. Delicious irony, seein' that ship sink and those rats swimmin' for all their worth. Which, is probably a sizeable amount. <br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]And I'm the one that jaded you . . .</font color=blue>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/01/06 10:53 PM

I'm not sure how I'm going to feel when this whole thing comes down. Satisfaction to see corrupt politicians defamed, skepticism in the knowledge that these things will probably happen again, anger at what of our democracy they tried to sell out, and maybe a little hope that we'll be just a little bit better for it all.<br><br>-- Charlie Alpha Roger Yankee Whiskey
Posted by: DLC

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 10:19 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> I just hope that the power shifts within the Democratic Party have promoted some better leadership while they have been out of power in the House. <p><hr></blockquote><p>yeah the current Dem leadership has been sittin around with their thumbs up their arses. With all the ammunition the GOP and Bush has given them they should have beaten the GOP leadership to a pulp, and if you look, the GOP leadership is bleeding profusely but mainly due to their own self-inflicted wounds !! The Dem leadership (?- is there one?) has been so lackluster. The GOP is so much better at keying on Dem mistakes and maximizing the damage (aka Clinton-Lewinski) than visa versa.<br><br>And to complete my post I'm going to make a potentially provocative statement. I do NOT want Hillary in 2008.<br>IIMHO- she has pandered too much to the right trying to be centrist and she's not been loyal to her real base. I think there are several GOP candidates that would beat her incl McCain, Guliani, and what about Rice? She is too inflammatory (not her fault-again GOP hyping and selling BS), and no matter how far to the right she moves there are many (30-40%) that would never in 10 E6 years vote for her. I don't have too many axes to grind with her (maybe Iraq), but I just don't think she's electable under the current situation. Lastly, I am NOT against any woman running so don't take my rejection of Hillary as sexist. I really love Diane Feinstein. She was Mayor of SF when I lived out there in the 80's. Sharp lady and I'd follow her anywhere. Pulosi is good too but I don't think she's electable. I know there are others and when it happens I'll be looking forward to a woman President (well 1 exception- Rice lying sack of cr@p). <br><br>How about Warner of VA ?? Gov of a previously "red state" and got his successor elected.<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 11:25 AM

Maybe Dems are doin' the right thing for a change. Nothin'. Think of corruption within the GOP as a delusional megalomaniac walklin' around with more than enough rope to hang himself. Picture the current administration as a fire that's not worth the waste of gasoline.<br><br>I am completely on the Take a Hike Hillary bandwagon. Dear gawd, the woman's so ambitious her teeth ache when she smiles. I don't believe she has one single solid principle in her pumped up portfolio. When a pol relocates his/her residence to get elected? That pol demonstrates an appetite for office, not a serious commitment to real constituents.<br><br>Maureen Dowd summed it up pretty well ~ If the Dems do nominate Hillary, it'll just prove that the party does have a death wish.<br><br>I don't see this country electin' a woman prez for another ten years. I don't see this country electin' a black woman prez for another lifetime.<br><br>And truth is? I really don't give a rat's ass about presidential gender anyway. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]And I'm the one that jaded you . . .</font color=blue>
Posted by: DLC

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 11:53 AM

yep I agree... the Dems need to capture one (or maybe both) house of Congress in 2006, and then nominate a moderate to mildly conservative Dem for 2008. The GOP take-over of everything didn't happen over night and IF they lose all 3 - ti'll take time... I figure at best, it'll be a split govt for a long time.<br><br>I really want the Dems to get one house in 2006 so they can gain Supena powers to delve into Bush's transgretions. That is one reason this douche-bag has gotten away with so much and continues to do so.... GOP Congress is NOT going to ask ANY questions no matter how many illegal acts Bush does.<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 12:50 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>That is one reason this douche-bag has gotten away with so much<p><hr></blockquote><p>Dave, Dave, Dave ~ You're confusin' him with his mommie. <br><br>Absolutely, if the Dems can retake the Senate or the House, not only will we have a shot at the kind of investigation SnoopGate needs, but we'll enjoy the restoration of a good, ol' fashioned balance of power ~ and, hopefully a Re-United States.<br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]And I'm the one that jaded you . . .</font color=blue>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 01:16 PM

Hillary. Feh! <br><br>Y'know why Hillary never wears a miniskirt? Cause her b@lls would hang out. <br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 01:22 PM

My problem is Dems again relaxing, thinking it's over, now the neoCONS've been caught.<br><br>Because so far, every time we assumed that, they do something even MORE horrendous!<br><br>The two things i see coming is:<br><br>A) They're already flip-flopping the LEAK Issue (Switching to OFFENSE) <br>...from being guilty for de-constructing the WoMD Arm of the CIA, and all their <br>contacts, that were there to protect the American people, ---to focussing on <br>some patriot that dared to "blow the whistle" on them, by alerting the public <br>that they have may been under long-term UNLAWFUL surveillance, & that their <br>personal information has been mined, and is being held in a secret data base.<br><br>"OH! THE OUTRAGE! HOW DARE YOU CATCH ME BREAKING THE LAW!"<br><br>B) I keep hearing the phrase; <br> "It WAS against the law, ......UNLESS THE LAW IS CHANGED!" <br><br>LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL<br><br>Well, DUH! <br>Why not just sit and spin until all the paid officials involved in the cover-up<br>can put their heads together with all the neo-CON Judges that have been <br>stuffed into the Supreme Court, and RE-WRITE The LAW To Protect The Guilty? <br><br> <br><br><br>
Posted by: Terry11

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 01:33 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"B) I keep hearing the phrase; <br>"It WAS against the law, ......UNLESS THE LAW IS CHANGED!"<p><hr></blockquote><p>Since when has this been an option... is what I keep asking myself.<br><br>What bothers me more is that the general public may be comatose enough to accept that and consider changing the law, after the fact, is okay.<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 01:38 PM

Yeah the BIG question is WHO's going to step in the Dem pool, take control, and LEAD ??<br><br>If roles were reversed, the GOP would be all over this shiite..<br>and there'd be 1000 little goose-stepping right wing "mouths' shouting the same lines over and over and over.. like the swift boat maniacs.<br><br>look at the Dems in the House and Senate and you hear 1 or 2 make an issue of it !! ... the rest are like asleep or zombies or something.<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 03:16 PM

What would ever make you think that that's exactly what they're doing?<br><br>It's been there policy all along;<br><br>Hardly anyone pays attention anymore<br>and when someone does find the onions to raise the hew & cry there are <br>people a plenty to shut them up and shout them down ...shamefully, on <br>BOTH sides of the aisle. <br><br><br>Like THE DICK did to those people in the Haliburten Asbestos Case;<br>They were paid off for generations of workers and towns people that will <br>CONTINUE coughing their lives away until they're dead.........<br><br>....and within DAYS... <br>The DICK authored a Bill outlawing those so-called "FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS"<br>against Corporate Criminals, by the demonizing "TRIAL LAWYERS" that <br>sought accountability for the Death & Hardship they leave in their wake.<br><br>OR<br>Like DICK raising another "Good-Job-Brownie" named Roberto Gonzales <br>out of obscurity to the office of Attorney General, exactly on time to<br>REWRITE The DEFINITIONS OF TORTURE ~AFTER~ the Abu Ghraib Torture<br>situation had been found out, ...but just BEFORE it all hit the press.<br><br>Don't you get it?<br>When BUSH & RICE Swear there's no torture, THEY'RE NOT LYING!!!<br>The Definitions of Torture WERE RE-WRITTEN. Now they state that anything <br>short of permanent organ failure, or death, are No Longer Considered Torture.<br><br>OR<br>The Firing of the General in Charge of Oversight of Allocating Funds, ~AFTER~<br>she'd Blown the Whistle on all of the "No-Bid-Contracts" that Haliburten <br>CONTINUES to rake in. ((it was Cheney's Co, Haliburten, that wanted the Oil <br>Pipeline THROUGH Afghanistan, and the CONTRACT (Death-Warrant) they <br>placed on Osama's bin Laden's head when he refused Haliburten's offer that<br>caused him to lash out against us in the first place.))<br><br>And I'm sure there are a lot more instances that never saw the light of day.<br><br>What would ever make you think that that's exactly what they're doing AGAIN?<br><br>You don't think it matters?<br>It was The DICK'S ARMED BlackWater (Mercenaries) "Contractors" that he<br>whistled back from Iraq to patrol the streets of New Orleans, armed w/orders<br>to "SHOOT TO KILL"! Now you know we're under surveillance, what do YOU<br>think will happen when we've finally had more than we care to swallow?<br><br>WE NEED VOTER REFORM NOW! ---Not a Month before the elections, ~ NOW! ~<br>We have to start campaigning NOW for Voter Reform. HOLY HANNA! Black or <br>White PEBBLES in a Stinking Bucket would be better than the Computerized <br>Electronic Machines without a Paper Trail Accountability that the Neo-Con<br>Owned companies have forced down our throat Nation wide by now!<br><br>Otherwise, there'll never be any LEGAL way out of this Downward Spiral to Hell. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Terry11

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 04:53 PM

I've been preaching voter reform for years... no one's listening!<br><br>Those that do go to the polls (going through the motions), are refusing to accept there's a damn good chance their votes aren't being counted. The Diebold fiasco isn't being covered by the media... which is bought and paid for.<br><br>Little do they (the media) know, they're not part of the 'in crowd' which they so handily cater to. It's all part of the 'if it doesn't affect me personally' way of thinking so many of our citizens have adopted. When they're no longer needed by this administration (police state achieved), they'll be discarded like yesterdays newspaper.<br><br>Don't get me started... <br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 04:59 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> I've been preaching voter reform for years... no one's listening! <p><hr></blockquote><p>not true .. I've listened and totally agreee. We need:<br>voting with a mandatory paper trail that can verify the electronic "mumbo gumbo"... and get rid of that dammed electorial college! ...straight popular vote every one counts the SAME !!<br><br>One reason voter turnout may be low is in some places (like GA) many Dems say WTF- the electorial votes are going to the GOP any way ! so F - it !! in a straight popular vote every one counts and they can't "write off" many states !! same for GOPers in "Blue states" !!<br><br>If they can't "deep six" that antiquated EC- then make the votes proportional so it's not ALL or NONE !! <br>But I think many on BOTH side want to keep it the same.<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 05:19 PM

We've been discussing the "Revolving Door Policy" a few times;<br>where Corporations back a candidate, so that politician is OWNED<br>by that corporation, that twists arms and spreads around more<br>corporate money to have laws passed that favor the corporation.<br><br>In return, when their term is over, they're rewarded with a high <br>position in the corporation, where they can use the connections <br>they've made to lever more influence with other politicians.<br><br>If the politician does enough for the corporation, he's backed again<br>for an even more influential office, until his term is up, and the <br>cycle begins again, each time climbing higher up the scale.<br><br><br><br>OK, That said:<br><br>GOOGLE the career of a woman named 'Katherine Harris', ...and her<br>connection with the DIBOLD Machines. LOLOLOL Currently she just<br>WON a hotly contested ELECTION that no one thought she had ANY<br>CHANCE Of Winning! LOLOLOL Why does that not surprise me! LOL<br><br>
Posted by: Terry11

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 05:44 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Currently she just WON a hotly contested ELECTION that no one thought she had ANY CHANCE Of Winning!<p><hr></blockquote><p>An mainstream media reporting this... or anyone looking into 'voter irregularities' as the PC crowd prefers calling fraudulent behavior... and if not, why not?<br><br>That is the question! <br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 06:52 PM

sheez... that slimeball K. Harris.... <br><br>yep it's pretty plain- I don't see why more people do't see it I don't just mean her - I'm talking teh corporate influence peddling.<br><br>we have a Corporatocracy!!<br><br>someone invade us! oops already have! <br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 10:53 PM

<br>Very recently<br>THE DICK was still growling (...out both sides of his mouth)<br>that there WAS no such thing as "Voting 'IRREGULARITIES'"...<br>...and that everyone had better "just get over it" and "stop their <br>whining" because they're too busy populating the rest of the <br>50 States with the "perfectly fine" voting machines, to listen.<br><br>MEANWHILE:<br>many of the people playing Hop-Scotch between Politics and<br>the Corporate World have gone back to the Political stage,<br>and AMAZINGLY ENOUGH... not only were they NOT Hung on <br>the Friggin' Spot..... but as amazing as it might seem, .........THEY ALL WON!<br><br>IMAGINE THAT! <br><br><br><br><br>** this had all been slipping under the radar<br>while everyone was busy wondering 'what will<br>become of KARL ROVE?' ( *...Karl who...?* )<br><br>Yep, SOMEBODY'D better start paying more attention<br>...before old Karl HIMSELF gets elected! (Amazingly Enough) <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Which will happen First ? - 01/02/06 11:06 PM

It don't take much looking to find out what's going on<br><br>...FOR INSTANCE...<br><br>people just have to stop following the shiney objects<br>(the brightly colored 'Cover Stories') and pay attention.<br><br>[color:white]. . . . . . . . . </font color=white>"LOOK! IRRELEVANT!"<br><br><br>