The Iraq War will haunt America

Posted by: Zapata_

The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 10:45 AM

From a soldier, last October. I hear so much about 'support the troops', many times I believe that concern for the troops is anything but genuine. After all the best way to support the troops is through supporting the TRUTH. And most importantly. NOT PUTTING THEM IN HARMS WAY UNLESS ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY!!!!!!<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The Iraq War will haunt America<br><br>I am an ex-Military Intelligence officer who served 10 months in Baghdad; I was the senior intelligence officer for the area of Baghdad that included the UN HQ and Sadr City.<br><br>Since Bush exposed my person and my friends, peers, and subordinates to unnecessary danger in a war apparently designed to generate income for a select few in the upper echelon of America I have become wholeheartedly anti-Bush, to the chagrin of much of my pro-Republican family.<br><br>I fail to understand how Bush can be so strong regarding national security matters. As a 'footsoldier' in the 'war on terror' I can personally testify that Bush's administration has failed to effectively fight terrorists or the root causes of terror. A lot of people have already discussed the faulty reasoning for going to war and how the war in Iraq is not related to the war on terrorism, but even within the execution of the war, there are significant failures by the national leadership to execute the 'war' on Iraq and to 'reconstruct' Iraq.<br><br>For instance:<br><br>1. Bush stated that our troops would have everything we would need to fight in Iraq. Why then was I given only 19 rounds of 9mm ammunition for my only weapon, a pistol, when I crossed the border into Iraq on April 8th, 2003? Why did hundreds of soldiers in my unit not have armor inserts for our body armor? Why did we have to use 'creative accounting' to come up with cash to pay Iraqi sources for information- sometimes even using our personal funds? When we needed cell phones for Iraqi sources so they could contact us without putting themselves in danger, why were they unavailable? (Perhaps because every other person within the highly ineffective CPA had one?)<br><br>2. The White House and the DoD failed to plan for reconstruction of Iraq. Contracts weren't tendered until Feb-Mar of 2003, and ORHA (the original CPA) didn't even come into existence until January 2003. This failure to plan for the 'peace' is a direct cause for the insecurity of Iraq today.<br><br>Immediately after the 'war' portion of the fighting (which really ended around April 9th, 2003) we should have been prepared to send in a massive reconstruction effort. Right away we needed engineers to diagnose problems, we needed contractors repairing problems, we needed immediate food, water, shelter, and fuel for the Iraqi people, and we needed more security for all of this to work - which we did not have because we did not have enough troops on the ground, and CPA decided to disband the Iraqi Army. The former Iraqi police were engaged far too late; a plan should have existed to bring them into the fold right away.<br><br>Unemployment is also a contributing factor to the lack of security, since idle hands are dangerous when those hands belong to people who are hungry, thirsty, and armed. The fact that Iraq was mostly a socialized industrial economy within its cities was known. Why then was the employment of urban Iraqis during reconstruction not a priority? Establishing massive reconstruction efforts that employed millions of Iraqis would have gone a long way toward proving to the Iraqis that we were there to help them, not steal their oil and get rich from reconstruction contracts paid for by the American taxpayer.<br><br>3. Contractors hired by the national decision makers (no-bid contractors) contributed to problems in Iraq, instead of helping. They did this by having CPA driving out or discouraging some international and non-US NGOs who were working the same areas that contractors like Bechtel were hired to fix. When areas were being double-tapped, CPA would instruct the NGOs to go away and let the contractors do their work. Additionally, the sub-contractors employed by US contractors hired Iraqis - but they found Iraqis in rural areas outside of urban areas (to reduce the amount they would have to pay them - urban areas have a higher average daily pay) and then bring the rural Iraqis into urban areas to conduct work. This resulted in a lot of irritated, unemployed urban Iraqis in areas where they could see work being done, but no work (and no pay) for them. And the rub of all this is that the rural Iraqis didn't really need the work - most rural Iraqis were subsistence farmers, with a loose barter economy in the undeveloped areas outside of cities. Yes, they were poor, but they could survive on the food they could grow; poor urban Iraqis were squeezed into neighborhoods like sardines and depended on income and handouts to live.<br><br>4. CPA was as much our enemy over there as the people planting roadside bombs and shooting weapons at us. Several times they put US profit or CPA authority as more important than security for either Iraqis or the US troops over there. CPA was mostly staffed by young republicans who want to put CPA-Iraq on their resume so they won't be left out of the grand old party.<br><br>One example of this: In early May 2003 CPA had designated a Sunni to be governor of Najaf, which was militarily under the control of a battalion of the 7th RCT of the 1st Marine Division. Najaf is The City for Shi'ites, so they didn't like this Sunni Mayor. The Shi'ites protested. The Marine Battalion Commander decided to hold free elections for an interim mayor to replace the Sunni. Many different factions in Najaf put forward candidates; posters were put up all over the city, and people tried to sway the vote using street-corner speeches. The week the election was to be held the Marines had managed to rebuild a local TV station using their unit funds, and they televised that elections would be held, with registration of voters occurring prior to voting. This was to be democracy in action: the people speak and give their power to an elected individual. This was in late May 2003 if I remember correctly.<br><br>Several days later CPA suspended and then cancelled the election because they said that the Marines didn't have the authority to hold elections or change the CPA's designated Mayor. What had been a victory for the US and the people for Najaf had been turned sour by CPA's 'don't step on our turf' mentality, and their fear of having an elected official in a major city that wasn’t handpicked by them. By doing this the Marines were made to appear impotent, and the Shi'ites of their Most Holy City lost any hope for the US occupation of their land.<br><br>Is it any wonder that Sadr found an audience for his anti-American rhetoric in Najaf? How many lives (American, Iraqi, and others) were lost because of the disaffected Shi’a that this CPA decision created?<br><br>5. Back to the point of Bush promising that we would have everything we would need. The thing we needed most over in Iraq wasn’t bullets, body armor, cash, air conditioning, hot chow, or armored vehicles, although we were short on all of these things; the thing we really needed the most was training and preparation. We had no or very little training on urban combat tactics, raids to detain or kill targeted individuals, collecting, reporting, analyzing, and using human intelligence, developing sources of information, using interpreters, bomb / unexploded ordnance detection and disposal, handling of detainees, questioning detainees, use of non-lethal force, cordon and search operations, and riot control. This lack of training has caused the deaths of untold numbers of soldiers and Iraqis. Unfortunately we have gotten experience in some of these areas, but we paid too high a cost in blood for our ‘training.’<br><br>As an example, did you know that a .50 caliber machinegun will penetrate through four or five houses if they are made of the simple dried-mud construction that many buildings in the poorer areas of Baghdad are made of? How many casualties were caused by incidents caused by our ignorance of this fact? And how angry would you be if a family member were injured or killed by U.S. gunfire, even if it was an accident? I don’t blame our troops; we used the tools we were given, and never were we given training on minimizing innocent casualties during complex urban encounters, often at night, in close-quarters. We did the best we could with what we were given; but what we were given wasn’t enough. Our government owed us and the Iraqis better.<br><br>We were given only minimal training on compensating innocents for military-caused damage to their person, family, or possessions. We did dozens of raids, if not hundreds of raids, in my area of Baghdad alone. Sometimes the raid was against the wrong person or an innocent, but only occasionally did we compensate them for destroyed doors, days lost at work, or injuries. How angry would you be at the local occupying force of your neighborhood if they were constantly breaking down your front door, seizing random property, cash, and documents, and detaining all the males and some females for indeterminate amounts of time? How many of these angry Iraqis are fighting us now? If training had highlighted how important it was to keep Iraqis happy with us and our presence, perhaps the death toll would be much lower than it is now. But again, the government failed to train or prepare us adequately.<br><br>Once in Baghdad it quickly became apparent that we would have to identify individual insurgents in an extremely densely populated urban area. This was a task that we as a combat unit and I as a military intelligence officer were certainly not prepared for; it was unlike anything we had ever done in training. It was something more akin to the job of FBI agents or CIA analysts, and it took us months to even feel like we were approaching the problem the right way. We were more or less amateurs at the job, although we tried very hard and did the best we could, considering we had no training or preparation for our task of ‘hunting down terrorists and insurgents.’ Why didn’t the government have us start training for this type of war before we started having our troops blown up by roadside bombs?<br><br>We never trained to handle any significant number of detainees, and certainly never had to rely on questionable local translators to do basic initial questioning of detainees. Our ability to determine the guilt or innocence of any particular detainee was severely limited by our inexperience and lack of training doing what are basically ‘police’ arrests of individuals. We are an Army trained to fight enemy units, not individuals. We are very good at killing or capturing even small teams of the enemy. But we were not prepared to fight an enemy who we can’t identify; in the words of the operations officer I served with, “It’s not like they have Terrorist T-shirts or Terrorist membership cards.” If the bad guy you are after doesn’t have any weapons or bombs under his bed, how do you know you have the right guy? And usually our decision was, if in doubt, detain the guy. And usually that guy would be detained a long, long time. There were systems in place to try to ensure that we only detained and imprisoned the bad guys, but the detention of individuals and trying to act as judge, jury, and attorney was something that none of us were trained to do. And unfortunately that probably means a lot of innocent people were detained, and for every innocent person detained, that means an angry extended family that may have been at least neutral to the US occupation is now ready to pick up an AK-47 and take a few satisfying shots at the ‘infidel occupiers.’ The government should have prepared us better, and they didn’t. Again, American and Iraqi lives lost are the price paid.<br><br>And regarding translators: if the government was serious about taking down Iraq and liberating their people, why didn’t we start creating a huge pool of Arab linguists? We had to hire scores of local translators for use with our combat patrols and raiding operations, and we still never had enough. And how do you know that the translator you hired isn’t selling information about your unit to people who want to do you harm?<br><br>Thank you for reading this. I use the term ‘government’ quite a bit in this letter, but make no mistake: I blame the national decision makers of our government for the incredible cost in human life that this unnecessary war has cost us Americans and the rest of the world. And the chief decision maker, the CEO of America, ‘President’ Bush, needs to be held accountable for the horrible decisions made while his administration held the reins of power.<br><br>I would like to add that it is my opinion that the vast majority of the US military that went over to Iraq really believed that we were there to help the Iraqi people and liberate them. I and others I served with did the best we could to preserve innocent life. But we were given a task to do without the tools, training, or troops enough to do it, and it makes me really angry to hear Bush touting the war in Iraq as a successful means of fighting terrorism.<br><br>At least before the Iraq war the average angry anti-American Arab would have to cross the Atlantic to get to us; now they can shoot a mortar at us or drop a roadside bomb off on their way to work. The decision to invade Iraq will haunt America for decades to come.<br><br>I'm sure this has gone on long enough. If there is anything I can do to help get Bush out of office, please let me know. I've left the military and am currently setting up my own business, but have time and flexibility to spare.<br><br>-Andrew Balthazor<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>http://www.optruth.org/main.cfm?actionId...mp;userID=79282<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 11:36 AM

Very Enlightening Zapata!!<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Supporting the Troops requires more than words, and more than careless actions.<br><br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 12:03 PM

Careless actions like calling our soldiers Nazis? Like Newsweek causing peoples deaths by reporting Marines flushed a holy book? Like Kerry insulting the Prime Minister of Iraq, implying he's a stooge to Bush?<br><br><br>You dorks crack me up. What had you personally done to support the troops? Anything? Nah, I didn't think so. <br><br>
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 12:08 PM

One hlll of a of more than you. So go cram your head up bushies ass!<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 12:14 PM

ROTFLMAO!!!<br><br>Dude, you couldn't find any one elses words to copy and paste so you had to actually write something for yourself, and you couldn't even do that without screwing it up. <br><br>HAHAHAHAHA <br><br>So in other words, you haven't done spit, have you? You really are a loser, aren't you? You have no idea what I've done in relation to US troops. You don't warrent the kind of respect that would compel me to tell you either. It's called pearls before a frothing, fat, stupid, sock puppet swine.<br><br>
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 12:26 PM

So why aren't you in Iraq? Why not put your life where your mouth is. You'd sh!!t your pants and you know it. I know there are lots of soldiers in Iraq, who would gladly trade places with you.<br><br>You're such a BIG MAN, TOUGH GUY, go ahead and enlist!<br><br>Diapers will be standing by for you.<br><br>
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 02:12 PM

I see you're as fraudulent as the administration that you so desparately want to lick the boots of.<br><br>Big mouth, but little else.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 02:34 PM

Zapless, you poor poor clueless boob. You just don't get it, do you? You just don't. <br><br>You're simply not worth the time to respond to any more. You're pointless, empty headed, and frankly, trite posts are boring. I'm only explaining this as a courtesy to you. <br><br>Seriously, I suggest you scamper back to where ever it was you came from. You seem to have a crowd over there that is kind of the same grade level. Really, you're only an object of humor here. <br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 02:41 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Careless actions like calling our soldiers Nazis? Like Newsweek causing peoples deaths by reporting Marines flushed a holy book? <p><hr></blockquote><p>One Durbin didn't say soldiers that's the " right wing Spin " - he said AMERICANS which was true... American did those acts... they were NOT equivalent to what Nazi's did or Russian gulags- but he NEVER mentioned the word "soldiers'...<br><br>but to just pick on Durban some, he just did a MOST stupid thing.. you never mention any criticism of this Administration and the word Nazi or gulag or Holocost in the same breathe... He should have KNOWN (it was a certainty) that his words would be twisted- for that act was STUPID to the nth degree.<br><br><br>Lastly your President did more to kill American soldiers than Durbin, Newsweek, or any other "rag" could do in months... he sent troops into Iraq NOT fully equipped... the body armor was missing and so was the vehicle armor on more than 2/3 rd of the units. THAT cost many more lives than the acts you cite... AND he didn't have to do it in March 2003... in fact he didn't have to do it AT ALL. but he was in a big RUSH because a few more weeks and the UN inspectors would discover what W already knew- Saddam had no WMDs!! So he pushed them in without all of the protection they needed.<br><br>SO Skul you want to point fingers - point to 1600 Penn Ave in DC FIRST, pal !! that azzhole got 1728 and counting GIs needlessly killed dude.<br>Saddam was NO threat to us- HE was NOT involved in 9/11.<br><br>so what happened to Binny boy, Skul?<br>Funny Bush never mentions him any more !!<br><br><br>David (OFI)<br><br>Saw a 2004 bumper sticker that said, "Who would Bin Laden vote for?"<br>well that IS EASY !! BUSH<br>Bush has done more for his recruitment than 1000 Israelis settlers.<br>AND Bush let him go !!<br>AND Bush has totally forgotten him!!<br>The answer, like Bush, was a "no brainer!!"
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 03:16 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>One Durbin didn't say soldiers that's the " right wing Spin " - he said AMERICANS which was true... American did those acts... they were NOT equivalent to what Nazi's did or Russian gulags- but he NEVER mentioned the word "soldiers'...<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah Skul. How simplistic of you to assume the "AMERICANS" Durbin was referring to at Guantanamo Bay, Camp Delta were "soldiers" of all things ... <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>He should have KNOWN (it was a certainty) that his words would be twisted<p><hr></blockquote><p>Here are the words directly from Durbin himself . . . <br><br><embed src="http://homepage.mac.com/barnett112/.Music/durbin.mp3" width=320 height=25 controller="true" autoplay="false" type="video/quicktime"><br><br>. . . no spin, Dave. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Lastly your President did more to kill American soldiers than Durbin, Newsweek, or any other "rag" could do in months... he sent troops into Iraq NOT fully equipped... the body armor was missing and so was the vehicle armor on more than 2/3 rd of the units. THAT cost many more lives than the acts you cite... AND he didn't have to do it in March 2003... in fact he didn't have to do it AT ALL. but he was in a big RUSH because a few more weeks and the UN inspectors would discover what W already knew- Saddam had no WMDs!! So he pushed them in without all of the protection they needed.<p><hr></blockquote><p><embed src="http://homepage.mac.com/barnett112/.Music/DLC_template.mp3" width=320 height=25 controller="true" autoplay="false" type="video/quicktime"><br><br>Here Dave, let me help you ... You need one of these . . . <br><br><br><br><br>Don't forget this . . . <br><br><br><br>. . . and don't forget your nightshirt . . . <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 03:19 PM

DLC, what a breath of fresh air. Zap could take a few dozen lessons from you. <br><br>Okay (cracking kunckles) lets see what we have here.<br><br>You're right. Durbin did not specificly say 'soldiers'. So tell me, who do you think he meant? Who else is at Gitmo? The Girl Scouts? Amway? Peewee Herman? I don't think it takes a " right wing Spin " to understand he meant the Marines. You think I'm wrong? Then how is it that even the people on his own party openly comment that he should not have said that about our soldiers?<br><br>My president? I thought you were a US citizen. You aren't. Well, in that case you really don't have much say is what Bush does. <br>Let me know when you vote in this country and then we'll talk. <br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 03:43 PM

so you admit the term Soliders was a "plant" by spinners !!<br><br>great...bout time !<br><br>were all the interrogators "military" ? probably not -I'm sure there were some CIA reps there too... not that it matters.. he said Americans.<br>The rest I agree was too extreme. Like I said - it was a very STUPID mistake.<br><br>Well thanks for the offer Matt; you keep YOUR toys .. YOU need them much, much more than I do, delerious one!! <br><br>and I loved your picture without the guitar. <br>you seem to be graying much more though - I suggest some Grecian Formula for your pony tail.<br><br>Good luck and try to hold yourself together during this trying time for the Bush groupies. <br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 04:14 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>so you admit the term Soliders was a "plant" by spinners !!<p><hr></blockquote><p>Hmmm .. Now what "Americans" in control of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Camp Delta could Dick Durbin be talking about? Ummmm ... Ummmm . . . wheeeewww... I'm .. I'm going to say .. man .. I'm going to say .. American .. uhh ... American Soldiers? <br><br>**DING**DING**DING**DING** YES! You are correct, go again.<br><br>I'll take Raving Nutbag Extremists for $1000.<br><br>"Atlanta"<br><br>Who is DLC?<br><br>**DING**DING**DING**DING** YES! You are correct, go again.<br><br>I'll take Slobbering Georgia Moonbats for $400 . . . <br><br><br> <br>
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 04:35 PM

On the moon, chasing bats? Geez Matt no wonder you're so lost. Come join the rest of us here on earth. <br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/22/05 04:48 PM

The Iraq War is already haunting us, and haunting Iraq in an even bigger way, and the haunting will get worse. And maybe we can remember not to put innocent civilians as well in harms way unless absolutely necessary. They don't have sufficient body armor either, from my understanding.<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 05:26 AM

from CNN:<br>"Last week, Lt. Col. Frederick P. Wellman, who helps oversee the training of Iraqi troops, told the Philadelphia Inquirer's Tom Lasseter that the insurgency was most definitely not running out of recruits: "We can't kill them all. When I kill one, I create three."<br><br>oh but according to the Bush Groupies (see above) -"we're doing SOOO well!!" -"Bush has done such an outstanding job!" at what ? killing Americans??<br>and Cheney tells us "the insurgency is in it's last throes" and these lame brains believe him after he's batting near 1000 on NOT being accurate on anything about terrorism or Iraq <br><br>it is SOO laughable the level of their incomprehension.<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Mcteak

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 06:36 AM

Yae know, it's people like you and skippy that made me extend my tour in Iraq, because I can not stand the thought of being near the problem (YOU) but would rather be making a difference. You will never make a difference, you may say you can and will, but bottom-line it's your actions that make you who you are. Have your actions taken you from the comfort of your home to the front lines of a war that is making a difference not only for us but the Iraqi people? Yea, I have heard all the rants of the officers and yea many are very correct, we are our own worse enemy, when dealing with the problem. You really need to form your own opinions from being part of the event, not by the words of others. Myself, I know what I do is making a difference and so do the other members of my team. So do the Iraqis we work hand in hand with and fight along side with. As for you and your keep the words coming, because that is all you have to offer. <br><br>From someone serving in the streets of Baghdad. <br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 06:43 AM

God Bless, Mcteak!<br><br>Stay safe.<br><br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 06:51 AM

Thank you for putting your life on the line for us and the innocent people of Iraq. <br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 08:31 AM

Well you will probably not believe this but I DO support you. I support you and all the other brave men to come home soon, and standing upright. AND I do appreciate what you do, but how do you feel that you are there based on a pack of lies Bush told to start the war ? remember, there were no WMDs, no connection to 9/11, or to Al Quada.<br><br>I DO have sympathy for the Iraqis on the street and I didn't like what Saddam did, but while he was doing it back in the 80's and early 90's we (our govt then ) assisted the azzhole! We hepled create the monster he was, and all of this could have possibly been avoided if Bush 1 had supported the Shiite uprising after Desert Storm like he promised, McTeak. Another example of failed US foreign policies. But who "sacrifices" ? soldiers like yourself. I think that's grossly unfair.<br><br>I don't think Iraq will ever be "stabilized" until the Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds have had enough and come to an agreement to form 3 countries or to share the existing one. They will do that with or without us. We (our presence) are not the critical issue! We cannot "MAKE" them have a democracy... if fact if there were a "true democracy" you'd have Shiite cleric elected and we'd have another Iran. Iraq was a "Pandora's box" we should have never touched.<br><br>Best wishes to you Mcteak. <br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 08:49 AM

You pretentious little prick.<br><br>Your entire spiel shows that you do not support the troops or their mission. You support having guys match around quads in uniform and impressing their parents. You support guys shooting at targets - but god forbid they point those guns at a live person. You support letting the Iraqi people suffer wholesale murder at the hands of other Iraqi people or thugs who just want control over the country so that they can become the new petty dictator on the block.<br><br><br><br>We all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time.
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 09:14 AM

What is that sucking sound I hear? Oh! It's DLC sucking up.<br><br>You're a piece of work. <br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 09:31 AM

Thanks, McTeak. We all need to be aware of your point of view.<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 09:37 AM

no, I think it's your head collapsing due to the EXTREME VACUUM !! <br><br>what in the F is wrong with you Skul? (good name for someone who acts like a bonehead)<br><br>- someone shows respect and sensitivity and you still knock it.<br>OH I forget - respect and sensitivity aren't in YOUR dictionary.<br>I still don't agree with the war- but that doesn't mean I don't respect and care what happens to the troops!! I want them home -SAFE !! <br><br>you just can't see they can be INCLUSIVE... with you and a few other it's always DIVISIVE.<br><br>THAT was the mistake of Vietnam- many anti-war people directed some of their anger the the troops= foot soldiers taking orders, instead of at the azzholes who planned and RAN it, and made all the MISTAKES.<br><br>So be clear Skul - my animosity and disgust is NOT at the Troops- it's at the LIARS and IDIOTS in DC running this fsckUp. Apparently I'm NOT alone according to the latest Polls and the number is GROWING, pal !! <br><br>Wake up and smell GW's bull shiite!<br><br>David (OFI)<br><br>PS THIS IS FUNNY !!<br><br>at the Senate hearings today!<br><br>"Citing what he called repeated "gross errors and mistakes" in the U.S. military campaign in Iraq, Kennedy told Rumsfeld: "In baseball, it's three strikes, you're out. What is it for the secretary of defense?"<br><br>I only agree with Teddy about 50% of the time, but he's right on this one - how many fsckups does a Sect get ??
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 09:49 AM

My entire spiel shows I don't support military disasters like Vietnam or Tripoli !! ...ever heard of that?<br><br>if you support the senseless loss of life on a Pack of LIES- then you don't really support the troops. They should never be sent in harms way unless it's absolutely necessary. This was NOT... people are waking up to that, Lues. <br><br>And the fact they were rushed without all the body armor needed, or vehicle armor they needed showed a wreckless leadership who really did NOT care about their well being as much as he did his own POLITICAL AMBITIONS !! IF one really wanted to "go, Saddam wasn't going anywhere, they could have been better prepared - course then GW's "little secret" would have emerged- Saddam had NO WMDs !!<br><br>Much to our chagrin we can't replace every dictator at our will around the globe.. so why'd we pick Saddam instead of say Sudan? or N Korea, or Lybia ?... OIL !! (Haliburton)<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: DLC

Here Lues... - 06/23/05 10:06 AM

have a bit of TRUTH !! <br><br>and this isn't any LIBERAL saying this -<br><br> General: Insurgency NOT weakening <br><br>"The top American commander in the Persian Gulf told Congress on Thursday that the Iraqi insurgency has not grown weaker over the past six months, despite a claim by Vice President Dick Cheney that it was in its "last throes."<br><br>NOW who's LYING !! ??<br><br>David (OFI)
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 10:56 AM

DLC....<br><br>What is it with you? Time after time you refuse to acknowledge the pile of facts about Iraq and instead you whip out the blinders and put your brain on 'loop'. 'WMD's!'<br><br>Hey, DLC, what time is it?<br>"Bush lied! WMD's"<br><br>Looks like it's going to be a warm day.<br>"Bush lied! WMD's"<br><br>Iraq violated UN resolutions repeatedly over several years<br>"Bush lied! WMD's"<br><br>What's 1 + 1?<br>"Bush lied! WMD's"<br><br>You're a broken record, man. Blind, deaf, and most certainly DUMB. <br><br><br>Oh, as for the sucking up bit? Yeah, you're twofaced also. Nice word crafting, though. You support our troops in coming home safe. <br>How about supporting them in the task they are shouldering? How about letting them know that if they need us, for what ever reason, you've got their back, which you don't. You will do anything to hamper their duty to this country and the people of Iraq. <br>Your statement just flittered off your tongue, "I DO have sympathy for the Iraqis on the street and I didn't like what Saddam did, but...." But? But what? They discovered thousands of bodies in mass graves. But? Women were routinely raped. But? Men were yanked off the street to never be seen by the families again. But?<br><br>You idiot. You have no sense of the depth of what was going on there. You rant and rave over these bastards having to sit in a hot room. Where is your outrage at the beheading of innocent Americans at the hands of the terrorists? Where are your posts about that? Anywhere? No? That's right. No. None.<br>You piss and moan about Gitmo while overlooking the slaughter of innocent people in Iraq. If you had a single living brain cell you'd understand that when our troops pull out, the terrorists will continue to murder people in Iraq until they regain power. <br><br>So, that's okay with you, is it? Just pull out and let these people die? Because why? Because they're not white? Because they're not Americans? <br>How far would you travel to save a life? Across the room? These soldiers believe in what they're doing. They might not agree with the politics that got them there, but they are saving lives and fools like you want to pull them out because there are no WMD's. You're not just stupid, you're dangerous.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 10:58 AM

Body armor? Is this your new WMD cry? <br><br>What a dip s**t.<br><br>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: Here Lues... - 06/23/05 11:07 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"We see good progress in both Iraq and Afghanistan... But we are realistic. And we know that great change is often accompanied with violence. We are not trying to paint a rosy picture," Abizaid said.<br><br>Told by Levin, the committee's senior Democrat, that his assessment directly contradicted Cheney, Abizaid said: "I don't know that I would make any comment about that other than to say there's a lot of work to be done...I gave you my opinion."<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Since when did subjective opinion become TRUTH. Sure it might be the general's truth, but it is based on his subjective view of the state of Iraq. Now I accept that he is calling it as he sees it - just as many people were calling Saddam had WMD's during most of 2002. But the only people who know the truth of the situation concerning the insurgency are the insurgents themselves. And I'm afraid I haven't found anyone willing to ask them personally how it's all going for them.<br><br>There are three sides to every story - your perception, my perception and actuality. But you have to have an open mind to accept actuality.<br><br><br><br><br><br>We all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time.
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 11:35 AM

What a load of fscking bullsh!!t! If you think people like David or me are the problem, then it is YOU who is either severly misguided or you have already lost. "streets of Baghdad" or not, you have no idea. <br><br>This with us or against us bullsh!!t has got to go. Period!<br><br>
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 11:38 AM

You, numbskul and manic are about as UNAMERICAN as you can get.<br><br>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 11:49 AM

If being American is being like you.....then I'm proud to call myself Unamerican.<br><br>You are close minded, have a hatred for anyone with an opinion that differs from your own. Your America is not what this country was founded upon.<br><br><br>We all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Llewelyn on 06/23/05 02:57 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: steveg

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 12:19 PM

Nice reply. Very well put, considering your speaking out your ass. Tell you what big mouth: Suppose you head on over to Baghdad and tell him that to his face! Man, you must have a peep-hole in your navel so you can see where you're going. <br><br>BTW, I notice you have a pretty strong "with us or against us" attitude about your own POV. But, I don't suppose it has to go, does it? <br><br>
Posted by: mojo_jojo

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 12:40 PM

Thank you for your service Mcteak. Please be aware that the vast majority support you and all of our troops. God Bless.<br><br>
Posted by: Mcteak

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 03:18 PM

Wow! Touched a nerve did I. Your reply was expected and is the norm of those who can talk but are unable to act. Remember that no one asked the men and women to defend our rights or freedoms, we volunteered. Our actions will make a difference, will your words? I understand not everyone agrees with what we are doing and that is OK, What is important in the support of the men and women serving our county, they may not like it anymore than I do, but each and everyone serving over here is making a difference. Next time you see someone in uniform, I dare you to go up to that individual and say thank you for protecting our way of life, our comforts and our freedoms. Do you think you can do that, don't say you will, but do it?<br><br>TK<br><br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 03:20 PM

&[censored] goes for you too, y'know. Then again, you probably don't.<br><br>
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 03:38 PM

Can you act without a weapon? Do you need guns, tanks, bombs to act? And yes, pointing at DLC and saying he's (and people like him) the problem does strike a nerve. That's not defending rights and freedoms. While you may be personally acomplishing something, your administration is accomplishing this:<br><br>CIA Says Iraq Is Now A Terrorist Training Ground<br><br>http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticl...IRAQ-CIA-DC.XML<br><br>David isn't the problem, people like Paul Bremmer are. Now tell me how this is "protecting our way of life"? C'mon, you know better.<br><br>Come home alive and in one piece!<br><br>P E A C E (It's not a bad word)<br><br>Share this with your team:<br><br>http://www.indybay.org/uploads/why_we_fight.ram<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 05:16 PM

Face it, you're an empty drum. Lotsa noise and nothin' inside. Go find more links if it makes you feel like you're actually proving anything. It's the Interweb, Zappy. You can probably find a hundred links that "prove" pigs can fly. So what?<br><br>Someone who's right in the tick of it gives you a real perspective on what's happening over there. Not from 30,000 ft. up. Not off some satellite feed. And certainly not out of the mouth of some liberal idealist who thinks he or she knows more than the rest of us. But from someone getting real face-time with bad guys and good guys alike, and you answer him with freakin' links and sophomoric smartass remarks?<br><br>Nobody likes this war, Zappy. Not even McTeak, I'll wager. And many of us are deeply disappointed in the Admin's tactics. But your hysterics and arrogance and disrespect are shameful.<br><br>You like links so much? Buy stock in Jimmy Dean! <br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 07:46 PM

I really fail to see why DLC's comments to McTeak garnered so much animosity from people. What did he say that was any different from before, except that he chose to say them to an American soldier this time? At least he showed some consistency. Calling people suck ups and pretentious little pricks because of the people they are addressing as opposed to the content of their post? If DLC had stayed out of it, you would have called him a coward. Being a broken record is one thing. Some civility from people is another. <br><br>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 08:39 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>If DLC had stayed out of it, you would have called him a coward.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Actually no. As much as I do not like Dr Phil, I respect him for 1 thing - he doesn't support the war, but he makes it a point not to bad mouth our troops, and he does pull up guests who do. (not that I watch him all that much)<br><br><br><br>We all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time.
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 10:17 PM

Yeah, people being maimed and killed. So what?<br><br>What's next for you steve, going to Philidelphia on July 2, stand up on the live8 stage and say "feed them condoms"<br><br>So your "nothin' inside" and your "sophomoric smartass remarks" and your "arrogance and disrespect are shameful" fall rather short.<br><br>And as to hysterics, well who bombed, invaded and occupied who? No doubt the injured, the dead, the broken lives left behind are "deeply disappointed" too. But as you said, "so what".<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/23/05 10:27 PM

Why? Fear of the truth that's why. Often this fear is covered up by machismo.<br><br>
Posted by: watcher

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 02:10 AM

Ah, the old skeleton in the macho closet trick.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 03:43 AM

Twist and spin, my man. Twist and spin the words. Bend the point til it squeals. I'm on record here as being against the Iraq war and the admin, and I certainly don't revel in the carnage over there. No Zappy, the "so what" if you actually read my post has to do with the slant and volume of your links. But now, I think it'll apply to anything you have to say. So What... <br><br>
Posted by: watcher

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 03:59 AM

You love to stir it, I am sure.<br>Tough I didn't get the James Dean bit.<br><br>I must admit though the whole shebang looks a bit tottery at present. Seems like Bin Laden is the one winning here. Seems like he knew exactly what Bush would do.<br><br>Shades of Maud'Dib<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 04:05 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> You're a broken record, man. <p><hr></blockquote><p>No Skul it's called CONSISTENCY !! something you guys who make excuses for the war do NOT have... one minute it's WMDs, then UN sanctions, then Saddam was bad (like we didn't know that when we wer ehelping the jerk), then it's another excuse...<br><br>and with resect to UN sanctions- many countres have bronken them incl Israel- why haven't we invaded them? <br>and when did we the USA become the UN police force? I thought Bush and the far right dispised the UN, so now we're gonna be their military force on call?? ...how CONSISTENT is that??<br><br>I can see the lack of WMDs is really bothering you ! <br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 04:23 AM

Don't even get me started on that sham. Had the Admin stayed on task and not embarked on this very costly distraction, BL might have been captured by now. At the very least, the U.S. would have had far more international suport for that effort than it does now. Bush should have finished the job in Afghanistan before attempting to finish what his father didn't in Iraq 15 years ago.<br><br>BTW, Jimmy Dean is a former CW singer and the name behind a brand of sausages sold in the U.S. (Not sure how well they go with "spice".)<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 05:02 AM

I know about Jimmy .. the joke just didn't gel for me either .<br><br>What we really don't know about, is Osama.<br><br><br>but where will we be when the future comes?
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 05:22 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> You rant and rave over these bastards having to sit in a hot room. <p><hr></blockquote><p>you are thoroughly CONFUSED. Link to one of my posts where I said ANYTHING about detainees sitting in a hot room, oh delusional one !<br>YOU CAN'T cause I never said squat about it.<br><br>My main complaint about the detainees is most have not been CHARGED. <br>After 3 years, either charge and try them, or release them.<br>My other complaint has been the 100 have died in our custody- 27 by homicide.<br><br>I will say there is one big flaw in many's assessment of detainees sitting in a hot room and that is several (don't recall if you did or not) have posted since the detainees are from the desert they shouldn't suffer in a hot room. That is not logical--- anyone in 120 degree heat is stressed.. I don't care who they are (it has to do with biological functions- physiology, etc) ... people are not like bacteria- there are no thermophilic humans. Now is that "torture"?? maybe not , but it could be, I think it depends upon more information- example how long? or if they're deprived of water and become dehydrated... yes that's INHUMANE.<br><br>Look I have no problem detaining convicted terrorists, and they deserve NO "Taj Mahal " treatment. But the suspects need to be TRIED and CONVICTED first. If you have evidence - get on with it ! If not arrange for their release. I'm not advocating this but even if you released all 550 from Gitmo (not really) those numbers wouldn't be that significant an addition to all the terrorists GW has helped Laden and others recruit (estimated to be ~ 20,000 now) with his failed policies in Iraq. Like the General said - we kill 1, 3 take his place!!<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 06:19 AM

I like Jimmy Dean sausage, Steve !! <br><br><br><br>the HOT variety... mmmmm <br><br>hey remember when JD had his own TV show ??<br>don't think it was on many seasons, though.<br>Remember Raplh the puppet dog ?<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 07:11 AM

Now I get it. I was having trouble trying to understand the position you were coming from, but I get it now. You're position is bent over, and that's what you want the rest of America to do; bend over and take it. <br><br>"Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." <br>Mr. Rove<br><br>Really? 100 died? I'm not interested in confirming your claim, but I can give you numbers too. <br><br>American Airlines flight 11 BOS-LAX (north tower of World Trade Center): 93 people: 82 passengers (including 5 hijackers), 9 flight attendants, 2 pilots <br>United Airlines flight 175 BOS-LAX (south tower of World Trade Center): 65 people: 56 passengers (including 5 hijackers), 7 flight attendants, 2 pilots <br>American Airlines flight 77 IAD-LAX (The Pentagon): 64 people: 58 passengers (including 5 hijackers), 4 flight attendants, 2 pilots <br>United Airlines flight 93 EWR-SFO (Shanksville PA.): 44 people: 37 passengers (including 4 hijackers), 5 flight attendants, 2 pilots <br><br>Not enough for you? How about this?<br><br>2602 people were listed as confirmed dead. 1585 identifed / 1161 victims unidentifed from the World Trade Center wreckage<br><br>90 people officially missing<br><br>125 Pentagon staffers killed or missing<br><br>But maybe you're bad with numbers. So, lets see. You have a problem with not being humane. And it makes you mad that they have to sit in a hot room. What I'm wondering is why you're not bothered by these.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>DLC, you're heart goes out to these terrorists, and that's what you care about. I could have posted pictures of rows of charred, broken bodies pulled from the Trade Center, but in your eyes, how can that compare to some murderer sweating?<br><br>I love this country, flaws and all. I wish we didn't have to put our soldiers in danger. I wish we didn't have to put our firefighters in danger, but I don't see anyone blocking them from entering a burning building, do you? They weren't forced to become firefighters. They chose to, just like our soldiers. They believed in serving this country. I don't entirely agree with this war, but you know what, we're there now, and while we are, I put my full support behind our troops. And not just that they come home, like you. <br><br>You and Zap are the worst kind of pussys. You talk about things you hear from people who slant the truth to serve their purpose, but you don't have a clue what the real truth is.<br><br>A soldier who has served there, told you what the truth is and you still blather out the same stuff like you never heard a thing. <br><br>You don't deal in logic, truth, or reason. You're a propaganda machine. You have no brains, heart, or loyalty. You're a parasite. You live off of this country and give nothing back. <br><br>You've lost any respect I had for you. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: DLC

ALL your BS is irrelevant - 06/24/05 09:00 AM

This Thread is about IRAQ<br>All the 9/11 photos and comparisons are totally irrelevant to Iraq - <br><br>SADDAM had NOTHING to DO with it... <br>and that's pretty callous using inflamatory photos to try to make a totally ILLOGICAL POINT.<br><br>ALL sources have concluded- FYI: <br>(1) Saddam Had NO WMDs<br>(2) Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11<br>(3) Saddam had NO ties to Al Quada or Bin Laden<br> your analogy is SOO STUPID, Skul !!<br>They are TWO DIFFERNT things, man !!<br> <br><br>And even after all the atrocities many Nazis committed (like Eichman) even the worst offenders of genocide were given TRAILS !! They were convicted, BEFORE they received pounishment !!<br><br>Why? Because we respected LAW !! International LAW.<br>We're not bending 1 bit Skul- you're acting delerious !! <br>BUT You have to provide EVIDENCE and CONVICT... <br><br>the way you like it, we might as well go ahead and just kill all the detainees !! That's what people like you want- lets quit fscking around and just get it over and KILL them ALL - innocent and guilty- since you've already Tried and Convicted them in your head !!<br>{/sarcasm}<br><br>My question STILL is -How long can you hold someone with NO charges, and NO evidence? I have no doubts the majority there ARE likely guilty, but some innocents are probably there also, and maybe some of lesser crimes... if we have a CASE then present it ! <br>what are we going to do holding them "forever" - torture a confession from them? oh that's real democratic, humane, and JUST !!<br>IF they haven't gotten the information by now they probably NEVER will.<br>Lastly UNTIL they are convicted- treat them humanely according to the Geneva Convention. All W is doing is fueling the insurgents by his unorthodox policies of "Fsck the world - we're doing whatever the fsck we want !!"<br>That attitude is what got us into the current mess !!<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: ALL your BS is irrelevant - 06/24/05 09:09 AM

So why perpetuate a conversation about Gitmo - which also has nothing to do with Iraq? If this thread is all about Iraq as you claim.<br><br>And PoW's are either traded for PoW's the other side have captured or released after the war is over - without being charged in the interrim. Difficult to trade PoW's when the otherside is chopping off their heads and dragging them through the streets.<br><br>We all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Llewelyn on 06/24/05 12:11 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: ALL your BS is irrelevant - 06/24/05 09:23 AM

How can you breath through that pile of bullsh*t you've created?<br><br>I can't belive I have to educate you about these things. Oh wait, it's not that you're stupid. I keep forgetting. You choose to ignore what dosen't fit in to your ideals. <br><br>So, you're going to tell me that you didn't KNOW they've already gotten information ouf of the people at Gitmo that has led to more arrests? You want me to believe that you didn't KNOW that some of the people they release they RECAPTURED on the battlefield shooting at our troops? But hey, that's okay with you because you don't mind supplying the terrorists with more people to shoot at our soldiers because your heart bleeds for the poor people detained in Gitmo. <br><br>Make up your mind about what you're whining about. It's Bush, it's Gitmo, it's the war, it's this it's that. What a putz. <br>Well, we're there and that's reality.<br><br>So how about you either get behind the people trying to save lives over there, or shut the Fu*K up? <br><br>You've pretty much proven where your loyalty lies. The only thing left is for you to start screaming Allah Allah Allah. <br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: ALL your BS is irrelevant - 06/24/05 09:55 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> So why perpetuate a conversation about Gitmo - which also has nothing to do with Iraq? If this thread is all about Iraq as you claim. <p><hr></blockquote><p>I DIDN'T... go back and look at all my posts above !! They're Iraq, Iraq, Iraq...<br>it was Skul who made the erroneous comment I mentioned prisoners sitting in a hot cell. I never said ANYTHING about prisoners in a "hot cell" in this thread or any other (go find them!) - This thread was all about W excuses to invade Iraq...<br><br>WHY don't you ask Skul why HE changed the subject ??<br><br> <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Difficult to trade PoW's when the otherside is chopping off their heads and dragging them through the streets. <p><hr></blockquote><p>No head chopping & dragging in streets in quite a while but they continue to bomb us. Again, a DIRECT result of W's poor planning and execution of transition.<br>The problem is the insurgents probably have many "leaders" not just 1 big one like a country would. That is hte nature of insurgents. That possibility was discussed many places BEFORE W invaded but he was so dam sure they'd be dancing... <br>That's one thing happened in NAM pal... sure the NVAR were the big force but there were a lot of smaller local VIet Cong under loose regional control... much like the insurgents in Iraq. VERY difficult to "deal" (as in POWs) with and negotiate with. like a 7 headed hydra - wack one head, another appears. We didn't learn a dam thing !!<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: ALL your BS is irrelevant - 06/24/05 11:12 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I DIDN'T... go back and look at all my posts above !!<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Your very first post in this thread was a reply to Skul who had commented on Durbin's statements, which were made about Gitmo, which is a prison facility set up to hold combatants from the Afganistan war.<br><br>Just in case you have trouble finding it:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>One Durbin didn't say soldiers that's the " right wing Spin " - he said AMERICANS which was true... American did those acts... they were NOT equivalent to what Nazi's did or Russian gulags- but he NEVER mentioned the word "soldiers'...<br><br>but to just pick on Durban some, he just did a MOST stupid thing.. you never mention any criticism of this Administration and the word Nazi or gulag or Holocost in the same breathe... He should have KNOWN (it was a certainty) that his words would be twisted- for that act was STUPID to the nth degree.<br><br><br>Lastly your President did more to kill American soldiers than Durbin, Newsweek, or any other "rag" could do in months... he sent troops into Iraq NOT fully equipped... the body armor was missing and so was the vehicle armor on more than 2/3 rd of the units. THAT cost many more lives than the acts you cite... AND he didn't have to do it in March 2003... in fact he didn't have to do it AT ALL. but he was in a big RUSH because a few more weeks and the UN inspectors would discover what W already knew- Saddam had no WMDs!! So he pushed them in without all of the protection they needed.<br><br>SO Skul you want to point fingers - point to 1600 Penn Ave in DC FIRST, pal !! that azzhole got 1728 and counting GIs needlessly killed dude.<br>Saddam was NO threat to us- HE was NOT involved in 9/11.<br><br>so what happened to Binny boy, Skul?<br>Funny Bush never mentions him any more !!<br><br><br>David (OFI)<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>So your entry to this thread opens with commentary on how Skul misunderstood Durbin's Gitmo statements. THEN you turned to Iraq.<br><br><br><br>We all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time.
Posted by: DLC

Re: ALL your BS is irrelevant - 06/24/05 11:30 AM

LOOK through that WHOLE copy of my quote you posted- where DO I say "Gitmo"?? can't find it <br><br>I was talking about Durbin's statement and the hoopla over it... - I never mentioned Gitmo as the SUBJECT- I did a word search of yur last post and the only time "Gitmo" came up was YOUR USE-.<br>and after Durbins comments, right to Iraq- the TOPIC of the thread !!<br><br>try reading the DETAILS, Lues. <br>maybe a Reading COMPREHENSION class would be in order for ya !!<br><br><br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: ALL your BS is irrelevant - 06/24/05 11:35 AM

You don't explicitely need to say GITMO - you referenced Durbin's comments which were about Gitmo, not Abu Graib, not Iraq, not Iraqi detainees.<br><br>By referencing Durbin's comments you are refering to Gitmo. You really should try to gain an understanding of what you are saying before you try to say it.<br><br><br><br>We all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time.
Posted by: lanovami

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 06/24/05 03:01 PM

Oh my, I read all the original Dune series in my early teens. Even though I loved the books, and they stayed on my mind for some time afterward, I had never thought of all the parallels between the Dune series and all the stuff going on now. Thanks for the link watcher.<br><br>
Posted by: DLC

Re: ALL your BS is irrelevant - 06/24/05 05:45 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> You don't explicitely need to say GITMO <p><hr></blockquote><p>Damn right I don't ! <br>I didn't even IMPLY Gitmo- My comments were he said Americans NOT soldiers ...like many CLAIMED I didn't even mention the torture issue... it was all CLARIFYING Durbins' statement...<br><br>Can't people see the very ones who slam Durbin don't even get THEIR OWN words right !! They slander his statement - insert soldiers for Americans... now Durbin was worng - but so are the spin meisters who twisted his words.<br><br>The English language is very precise IF you use it correctly. I measure / judge every fricking word I type for accuracy. I suggest a few others do so also.<br><br>David (OFI)<br>
Posted by: Zapata_

Re: The Iraq War will haunt America - 07/05/05 06:59 PM

Mushroom clouds!!!!!!<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Published on Sunday, July 6, 2003 by the New York Times <br><br>What I Didn't Find in Africa <br><br>by Joseph C. Wilson 4th<br><br>Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's<br>weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?<br><br>Based on my experience with the administration in the months leading up to the<br>war, I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related<br>to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.<br><br>For 23 years, from 1976 to 1998, I was a career foreign service officer and<br>ambassador. In 1990, as chargé d'affaires in Baghdad, I was the last American<br>diplomat to meet with Saddam Hussein. (I was also a forceful advocate for his<br>removal from Kuwait.) After Iraq, I was President George H. W. Bush's ambassador<br>to Gabon and São Tomé and Príncipe; under President Bill Clinton, I helped<br>direct Africa policy for the National Security Council.<br><br>It was my experience in Africa that led me to play a small role in the effort to<br>verify information about Africa's suspected link to Iraq's nonconventional<br>weapons programs. Those news stories about that unnamed former envoy who went to<br>Niger? That's me.<br><br>In February 2002, I was informed by officials at the Central Intelligence Agency<br>that Vice President Dick Cheney's office had questions about a particular<br>intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred<br>to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake — a<br>form of lightly processed ore — by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency<br>officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could<br>provide a response to the vice president's office.<br><br>After consulting with the State Department's African Affairs Bureau (and through<br>it with Barbro Owens-Kirkpatrick, the United States ambassador to Niger), I<br>agreed to make the trip. The mission I undertook was discreet but by no means<br>secret. While the C.I.A. paid my expenses (my time was offered pro bono), I made<br>it abundantly clear to everyone I met that I was acting on behalf of the United<br>States government.<br><br>In late February 2002, I arrived in Niger's capital, Niamey, where I had been a<br>diplomat in the mid-70's and visited as a National Security Council official in<br>the late 90's. The city was much as I remembered it. Seasonal winds had clogged<br>the air with dust and sand. Through the haze, I could see camel caravans<br>crossing the Niger River (over the John F. Kennedy bridge), the setting sun<br>behind them. Most people had wrapped scarves around their faces to protect<br>against the grit, leaving only their eyes visible.<br><br>The next morning, I met with Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick at the embassy. For<br>reasons that are understandable, the embassy staff has always kept a close eye<br>on Niger's uranium business. I was not surprised, then, when the ambassador told<br>me that she knew about the allegations of uranium sales to Iraq — and that she<br>felt she had already debunked them in her reports to Washington. Nevertheless,<br>she and I agreed that my time would be best spent interviewing people who had<br>been in government when the deal supposedly took place, which was before her<br>arrival.<br><br>I spent the next eight days drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of<br>people: current government officials, former government officials, people<br>associated with the country's uranium business. It did not take long to conclude<br>that it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place.<br><br>Given the structure of the consortiums that operated the mines, it would be<br>exceedingly difficult for Niger to transfer uranium to Iraq. Niger's uranium<br>business consists of two mines, Somair and Cominak, which are run by French,<br>Spanish, Japanese, German and Nigerian interests. If the government wanted to<br>remove uranium from a mine, it would have to notify the consortium, which in<br>turn is strictly monitored by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Moreover,<br>because the two mines are closely regulated, quasi-governmental entities,<br>selling uranium would require the approval of the minister of mines, the prime<br>minister and probably the president. In short, there's simply too much oversight<br>over too small an industry for a sale to have transpired.<br><br>(As for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed<br>out that the documents had glaring errors — they were signed, for example, by<br>officials who were no longer in government — and were probably forged. And then<br>there's the fact that Niger formally denied the charges.)<br><br>Before I left Niger, I briefed the ambassador on my findings, which were<br>consistent with her own. I also shared my conclusions with members of her staff.<br>In early March, I arrived in Washington and promptly provided a detailed<br>briefing to the C.I.A. I later shared my conclusions with the State Department<br>African Affairs Bureau. There was nothing secret or earth-shattering in my<br>report, just as there was nothing secret about my trip.<br><br>Though I did not file a written report, there should be at least four documents<br>in United States government archives confirming my mission. The documents should<br>include the ambassador's report of my debriefing in Niamey, a separate report<br>written by the embassy staff, a C.I.A. report summing up my trip, and a specific<br>answer from the agency to the office of the vice president (this may have been<br>delivered orally). While I have not seen any of these reports, I have spent<br>enough time in government to know that this is standard operating procedure.<br><br>I thought the Niger matter was settled and went back to my life. (I did take<br>part in the Iraq debate, arguing that a strict containment regime backed by the<br>threat of force was preferable to an invasion.) In September 2002, however,<br>Niger re-emerged. The British government published a "white paper" asserting<br>that Saddam Hussein and his unconventional arms posed an immediate danger. As<br>evidence, the report cited Iraq's attempts to purchase uranium from an African<br>country.<br><br>Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the<br>charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.<br><br>The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and<br>suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion<br>was not borne out by the facts as I understood them. He replied that perhaps the<br>president was speaking about one of the other three African countries that<br>produce uranium: Gabon, South Africa or Namibia. At the time, I accepted the<br>explanation. I didn't know that in December, a month before the president's<br>address, the State Department had published a fact sheet that mentioned the<br>Niger case.<br><br>Those are the facts surrounding my efforts. The vice president's office asked a<br>serious question. I was asked to help formulate the answer. I did so, and I have<br>every confidence that the answer I provided was circulated to the appropriate<br>officials within our government.<br><br>The question now is how that answer was or was not used by our political<br>leadership. If my information was deemed inaccurate, I understand (though I<br>would be very interested to know why). If, however, the information was ignored<br>because it did not fit certain preconceptions about Iraq, then a legitimate<br>argument can be made that we went to war under false pretenses. (It's worth<br>remembering that in his March "Meet the Press" appearance, Mr. Cheney said that<br>Saddam Hussein was "trying once again to produce nuclear weapons.") At a<br>minimum, Congress, which authorized the use of military force at the president's<br>behest, should want to know if the assertions about Iraq were warranted.<br><br>I was convinced before the war that the threat of weapons of mass destruction in<br>the hands of Saddam Hussein required a vigorous and sustained international<br>response to disarm him. Iraq possessed and had used chemical weapons; it had an<br>active biological weapons program and quite possibly a nuclear research program<br>— all of which were in violation of United Nations resolutions. Having<br>encountered Mr. Hussein and his thugs in the run-up to the Persian Gulf war of<br>1991, I was only too aware of the dangers he posed.<br><br>But were these dangers the same ones the administration told us about? We have<br>to find out. America's foreign policy depends on the sanctity of its<br>information. For this reason, questioning the selective use of intelligence to<br>justify the war in Iraq is neither idle sniping nor "revisionist history," as<br>Mr. Bush has suggested. The act of war is the last option of a democracy, taken<br>when there is a grave threat to our national security. More than 200 American<br>soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq already. We have a duty to ensure that<br>their sacrifice came for the right reasons.<br><br>Joseph C. Wilson 4th, United States ambassador to Gabon from 1992 to 1995, is an<br>international business consultant.<br><br>Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company <p><hr></blockquote><p><br>http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm<br><br>