The United States today

Posted by: Trog

The United States today - 11/03/04 10:36 AM

Today is an important day for the U.S. Whether this will be written in global history as the beginning of the end of the U.S. empire, or a powerful defense of it, or something a bit less dramatic, only time will tell. I've never made any attempt to hide how I feel about this administration and its policies (I disagree with ALL of them), but the clarity I feel this morning about how the majority of nonpolitical Americans think is at some level "interesting".<br><br>I don't believe that Bush's supposed strong leadership on terror was the reason he won. I don't feel that fear from 9/11 or support of the Iraq war was what put him over the top either. What led to him receiving a majority vote was pure, conservative, domestic issues; chief among them is the anti-gay movement. Its astounding how strong the support is for modern-day prejudice in America. War, interaction with other nations, fiscal responsibility, all took second place among voters that are only half tuned-in to the world around them. Its in these points that the true nature of the United States lies. Maybe I'm way behind on realizing this, but its painfully obvious now.<br><br>Sure, I was shocked and sad last night. I felt all the things that I have been feeling over the past four years (e.g. America is LESS safe, civil liberties are trashed, science and truth are suppressed, etc.), but I feel a little differently, a little less emotional about it now. <br><br>We will reach the absolute depths of conservativism. The Bush administration will probably appoint 3, who knows, maybe 4 justices to the Supreme Court and other federal courts over the next few years. Roe vs. Wade and other similar issues can now be addressed by the religious right with more power than they could ever hope for. The most conservative administration in decades (ever?) now controls every single branch of the federal government. They control the majority of the 50 states. There is now, in principle, nothing barring them from almost any agenda they want.<br><br>I'm frightened by that, because I feel that it is wrong for this country, yet, pushing that emotion away, I see that we get to be the observers of a great conservative experiment in a country that has isolated itself, no less. Can this government fix the unique econo/social issues that are rapidly approaching (social security is beyond a nightmare)? Will this cause even further separation of the economic classes and the demise of the middle class, or is that really just a liberal conspiracy? Will the problems in the middle east be pacified or will it finally reach a point where every single American is personally affected? <br><br>What I really wonder about is this: If John Kerry, a middle of the road democrat, had slipped by with a tiny victory might that not have been worse in the long run for progressives? Are democrats just pedaling the ill-fated flying machine harder as they continue to fall? I am sure I am not the first to make this analogy, but the next four years could be the equivalent of hitting "rock bottom" for the liberal minded. Rock bottom, though, is both terrible and wonderful. It is the consequence of mistakes and the beginning of redemption at the same time. Its too early right now to really even organize my thoughts (as you can tell, no doubt), let alone think about an entirely new political movement... but once I arise out of my fetal position I think I will feel much stronger than I ever would have believed last night. <br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 11:09 AM

That's an interesting take on the situation.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>What I really wonder about is this: If John Kerry, a middle of the road democrat, had slipped by with a tiny victory might that not have been worse in the long run for progressives<p><hr></blockquote><p> I lived in Boston most of my life, and long enough to see Kerry's shortcomings first-hand. It's a sad statement when one candidate only engenders a vote against the other. Bush and distrust, or Kerry and uncertainty. A lose-lose proposition at best, I'm afraid. <br><br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 11:26 AM

Well put Steve.<br><br>You're right, it is sad a sad statement when one would vote for Kerry simply because he wasn't Bush. I think the putz's post of being a laughing stock is right.. though not because Bush won. Because we had such a poor choice, that is at least if you were voting for one of the two major parties.<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 11:30 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>that is at least if you were voting for one of the two major parties.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Sgt., if a third party ever gains parity with the current two that third party's candidate will get chewed up and spit out as much as Bush and Kerry were. All of said candidates shortcomings and policy position flaws will be brought under the microscope.<br><br>Don't mistake irrelevance for superiority.<br><br>
Posted by: Boothby4

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 11:51 AM

[censored] marching down Pennsilvania avenue, but there is a clear indication that, what I see as, the conservative values that built this nation are still alive and well. We are not Europeans, or Canadians, or Asians........We are Americans. We have always marched to the beat of our own drum and that is what has always made this nation great. For those here that are upset by the election, I know how you feel, but as Americans we should all stand up and cheer. Yesterday 125 million Americans voted!!! Regardless of ideology we have just shown the world that we are still the largest, most vibrant democracy the world has ever seen.<br><br><br>Salus populi suprema lex
Posted by: sean

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 12:02 PM

you've captured my feelings almost exactly. i went from sadness to shock over the last 12 hours. i guess i am just coming to understand how the slim majority in america thinks and i am trying to understand the thinking behind some of the wedge issues that likely drove many voters to the polls and how these issues could trump the traditional issues that are much more likely to affect people's lives across america (e.g., gay marriage wouldn't really affect any heterosexual, most likley -- i mean, even without it we might have civil unions).<br><br>in any regard, i particularly liked this:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Sure, I was shocked and sad last night. I felt all the things that I have been feeling over the past four years (e.g. America is LESS safe, civil liberties are trashed, science and truth are suppressed, etc.), but I feel a little differently, a little less emotional about it now.<p><hr></blockquote><p>i am not sure if the feelings i have or don't have are just a coping mechanism that's kicked in or if i am outside of my body and looking at the world, but i just feel detached from america. like you, i now see an experiment of sorts. i am part of the 49% of americans who lost, but i am pretty emotionless right now. nearly 1/2 of us who will have very little say in the next four years (at least). i am resigned to this and that surprises me. like you, i am seeing a country that will either be able to climb back to the point where we are looked at as the great leader in the world or whether we will continue to be hated by the masses around the world and maybe fall out of the lead in the world on everything sans military power. i am seeing a country that will turn to hardcore dubya policies and our domestic future, including the economy, will hinge upon the success of his plans. if it works, then at least i'll know that i am probably wrong and need to reevaluate my own personal philosophies. wow.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: steveg

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 12:07 PM

Oh yeah... I know for sure that the global snickers are like sonic booms. No point in denying it.<br><br>Let's just say there are those that are qualified to articulate such observations, and those that should learn when to shut their pie-holes, thankyouverymuch. <br><br>
Posted by: Pete

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 12:26 PM

I honestly think, from talking to people that I know for a fact voted for Bush, that it had a lot to do with not really getting a decent *other* option- one such voter expressed that they 'weren't crazy' about W, but that they 'didn't trust' Kerry, and they weren't really impressed with him overall.<br><br>I know the left really REALLY wanted Kerry to be something special- the point is he just wasn't.<br><br>On the other hand, I don't think I've seen one candidate come through YET in all my years of voting that I 'trusted', believed in, and actually was rooting hard for to win. It's always been about the lesser of two evils.<br><br>Boothby said what I've been saying all along too- we weren't going to reverse the world's opinion of us in one fell swoop, and we're not going to be raising banners with swastikas on them in the streets of Washington.<br><br>When all is said and done, I believe Bush does want what's best for his country- even if he's going about it ass-backwards. Let's just come up with someone better than Kerry next time around, shall we? I might vote for him/her <br><br>[color:red]C'mon...you know me.</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 12:44 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>On the other hand, I don't think I've seen one candidate come through YET in all my years of voting that I 'trusted', believed in, and actually was rooting hard for to win. It's always been about the lesser of two evils.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>this is a direct result of negative campaigning for months on end. when most of the money being spent is trying to tear down the opponent and really amplify their weaknesses, i have no idea how a candidate is supposed to emerge from any similar campaign without a lot people thinking the candidates are of poor quality. like you said, you have yet have a candidate you rooted for. people are not infallible and good strategists will attack, attack, attack -- which they do (on both sides). <br><br>there is no candidate the dems could have nominated that wouldn't have been attacked rigorously (goes both ways). that's the nature of politics. tucker carlson said much the same thing last night when he said that kerry was probably the best candidate that could have run against dubya. anyway anyone who seems more appealing than kerry only seems like that because he/she wasn't attacked for the last 10 months.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: Pete

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 01:02 PM

this is a direct result of negative campaigning for months on end. when most of the money being spent is trying to tear down the opponent and really amplify their weaknesses, i have no idea how a candidate is supposed to emerge from any similar campaign without a lot people thinking the candidates are of poor quality.<br><br>Only the mere *seed* of doubt has to be planted in someone's mind, and these ad campaigns were brutal and non-stop. Not that we had many of them where I live (conceded to be a Dem region anyway), but I can imagine the bombardment people received in the Red and 'swing' states...<br><br>It's very hard to convince someone to vote out an incumbent unless the country has gone to complete sh!t. And I suppose that in an awful lot of people's minds, it hasn't...<br><br>....either that or it was Clinton's fault. <br><br>[color:red]C'mon...you know me.</font color=red>
Posted by: Boothby4

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 01:14 PM

That's why, as voters, it's important for all of us not to by into the hype. I said this before, and I still believe that organizations like moveon.org, and guys like Michael Moore did more harm than good for Sen. Kerry. Conspiracy theories just don't play well in Peoria. If you look at the red states county by county you will see that the rural counties went for Bush, while the centers of population went for Sen. Kerry. If you look at the country as a whole you see the same thing. Those people are not impressed by protestors hanging from buildings in NYC, or by civil disobedience. Don't get me wrong. I support the right to protest, but the view I hear is that those people were a bunch of nuts, and rural voters are not likely to associate themselves with these groups through their vote. I think that the Democrats have an important message, but the more frenzied they become to win, the more it drives middle America to the right. Bill Clinton won because he was more of a moderate than he was a liberal, and because he had a republican congress to keep him moderate. If the Republicans swing to far to the right you will see a power shift in two years, and maybe another one in four years. I'm not sure if Sen Kerry was too far left of center, but his supporters were, and that turned alot of people off.<br><br><br>Salus populi suprema lex
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 01:17 PM

Personally, I think the best man for this country at this time won. Kerry was not the best man for the job. Nor, do I think, was he the best option that the Democratic party should have brought to the table.<br><br>To whine and complain that an injustice has been done by retaining the current administration is an injustice in itself. To say you love America and then complain that you did not get your way is just simple ignorance and contradiction.<br><br>I love this country, and I would not trade living here for any other nation in the world. Regardless of our government's shortcomings (or perceived ones), we still live in the most "Free" and "Secure" nation in the world.<br><br>For those that display that bumper sticker on their car that reads "War IS Terrorism"... I respond "Pacifism invites Terrorism".<br><br>We do not live in an ideal world, nor do we live in an ideal country, but let's face it... man will never know complete peace because to experience it means that a man has to be present. Therefore that negates the possibility.<br><br>I believe in integrity, honor, faith, justice, and truth (all good characteristics for a leader), and that is why this Democrat voted for Bush. While some would say Bush lacks some of these qualities, I say Kerry has none of them.<br><br>I can only hope that now, he will just go away.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 01:21 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Bill Clinton won because he was more of a moderate than he was a liberal, and because he had a republican congress to keep him moderate<p><hr></blockquote><p>which is exactly why i cannot understand your earlier comments about understanding how we feel right now because you suffered through 2 clinton wins. sure, you hated the man -- obviously. but, you couldn't have hated all of the policies of a moderate bill clinton with a republican congress. like Trog said, it's all of dubya's policies that we dislike and he doesn't have a democratic congress or supreme court to slow him down. that's a huge, huge difference, imho.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: steveg

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 01:35 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I love this country, and I would not trade living here for any other nation in the world. Regardless of our government's shortcomings (or perceived ones), we still live in the most "Free" and "Secure" nation in the world<p><hr></blockquote><p>On that score, I couldn't agree more. We have always had so much more here, and we have always taken it for granted become complacent and assumed that the bounty would be there forever. So what happens when a few [hopefully] temporary adjustments have to be made? We go postal. We fall to the floor and throw a championship tantrum. <br><br>Now, I'm disappointed at being handed another 4 years of Bush/Cheney. But then again, I'm even more disappointed at not having had a truly viable alternative to vote for. I'm fearful that our global image will see yet more erosion before the scratch remover can be applied.<br><br>But I do believe that we're still better off than the rest of the world. And in time, things will improve, and once again, we will become spoiled children.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 01:44 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>But I do believe that we're still better off than the rest of the world. And in time, things will improve, and once again, we will become spoiled children.<p><hr></blockquote><p>i think it's about time American's become a bit less self centered. unless it doesn't bother you that the 90% of the world is living in extremely poor conditions, while the US is living up all the resources and contaminating the whole planet. it's not that hard to think beyond the borders of your country. you feel about your family, your town, your state, your country as of your own. can't you feel about your continent and your planet as your own as well? don't be content, that we are doing better than the rest of the world and the rest of the world can rot to hell, until there is green grass in front of my house.<br><br>this election wasn't just about America, it was more than that. the majority of the Americans however DO NOT CARE about the world, beyond the US borders. and that bothers many! the strongest nation does have a responsibility towards other poor nations, just like it's natural that an older brother looks after the younger ones.<br><br>
Posted by: Boothby4

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 01:57 PM

20/20 hindsight. At the time Clinton was elected I was in the military, and Clinton was not popular with most of us in the military. The feeling of doom and gloom was huge. Although I don't agree with much of the politics from the democrats and I think Clinton made some huge mistakes, it didn't turn out to be as bad as many of us thought it would be. <br><br><br>Salus populi suprema lex
Posted by: Boothby4

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 02:21 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>This election wasn't just about America, it was more than that. the majority of the Americans however DO NOT CARE about the world, beyond the US borders. and that bothers many! the strongest nation does have a responsibility towards other poor nations, just like it's natural that an older brother looks after the younger ones.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>I think that's where you have a fundimental missunderstanding of America, and Americans. This election WAS about America and not about the world. Just like elections in England, France, Germany, Spain et al. The people in those countries elect officials to represent the interests of those countries. We do the same here. As far as Americans not caring about other countries thats such a load of bull. The US gives more assistance to poor countries than anyone else in the world. The problem is that when America needed the world, the world turned it's back on us. We have always been there for them, but they weren't there for us when we needed it. So we went it on our own. We can do that. And we don't forget. <br><br>Oh and just to set the record strait, China, India, Russia, and much of the third world are contaminating the planet much worse than the US. It seems that everyone wants to dog out America. That is untill they need our help, our money, our products, or our markets to sell their products.<br><br><br>Salus populi suprema lex
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 02:29 PM

You're absolutely right there - Americans have a right to gather for peaceful protest, sure you can wave signs and be loud. But once you start interfering in other peoples daily lives or wrecking stuff you just stepped over the line and alienated anyone who, while not actively supporting your cause, may be sympathetic to it.<br><br>and as to.....<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Iraszi said:<br>this election wasn't just about America, it was more than that. the majority of the Americans however DO NOT CARE about the world, beyond the US borders. and that bothers many! the strongest nation does have a responsibility towards other poor nations, just like it's natural that an older brother looks after the younger ones.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br>I'm sorry but the vote was purely about America. I don't see Americans or Frenchmen telling the English who they should elect as Prime Minister.<br><br>You just have to look at the dumb campaign the Guardian (UK newspaper) tried to influence voters to choose Kerry in Ohio - they were quite firmly told what they could do with that advice, not only by Bush supporters, but by Kerry supporters too.<br><br>Additionally you have to remember that vast hordes of Americans only get their world view from the introverted US media - in other words, unless they can show the US government making a screw up, it's not worthy of news. They don't care about starving millions, they don't care who's running France - hell most of them don't even know where France is, and some don't even know where the next town is or care what happens there.<br><br>I'm sorry but while US policy may affect the rest of the world. The rest of the world doesn't get a vote. Narrow minded? Sure, but then I'm an immigrant and get to see this from both sides. While America may stomp on regimes they don't like, they generally don't get involved in your elections and expect you to respect theirs - no matter how messed up the election process might seem to be. They like it and they will defend it.<br><br>
Posted by: hayesk

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 02:59 PM

"I think that's where you have a fundimental missunderstanding of America, and Americans. This election WAS about America and not about the world. Just like elections in England, France, Germany, Spain et al. The people in those countries elect officials to represent the interests of those countries. We do the same here."<br><br>Agreed.<br><br>" As far as Americans not caring about other countries thats such a load of bull. The US gives more assistance to poor countries than anyone else in the world."<br><br>Not per capita, but yes, they to give, nonetheless.<br><br>"The problem is that when America needed the world, the world turned it's back on us. We have always been there for them, but they weren't there for us when we needed it."<br><br>Sorry, but that's pure BS. After 9/11 people all over the world donated millions to the American Red Cross, and offered help and support any way they could.<br><br>They didn't get support for Iraq, because they weren't convinced that the US "needed" to invade. The US failed to make their case, and it was later shown, the arguments they used to try to convince the world to help were unjustified. The US didn't *need* anyone to help invade Iraq. They did need help after 9/11 at home and Afghanistan and they got it. Hell, they even shot and killed a Canadian soldier in Afghanistan with little backlash.<br><br> "So we went it on our own. We can do that. And we don't forget. "<br><br>When the world was saying "don't go to Iraq" Bush and his government should have instantly wondered why they didn't get agreement and investigated that fact. They didn't. That had nothing to do with nobody wanting to help the US in time of need. Simply put, it wasn't a time of need.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Boothby4

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 03:04 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Sorry, but that's pure BS. After 9/11 people all over the world donated millions to the American Red Cross, and offered help and support any way they could.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Your right. No offense to those who helped after 9/11<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>When the world was saying "don't go to Iraq" Bush and his government should have instantly wondered why they didn't get agreement and investigated that fact. They didn't. That had nothing to do with nobody wanting to help the US in time of need. Simply put, it wasn't a time of need.<p><hr></blockquote><p>On that I think we will just have to agree to disagree.<br><br><br><br><br>Salus populi suprema lex
Posted by: steveg

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 04:11 PM

Thanks guys. Good counterpoints. I was so pissed by Ivan's grossly inaccurate generalization about Americans that I decided not to reply lest I say something regrettable.<br><br>Ivan, that remark was unfair and ill-considered, and I hope the next time you pause a moment before you hit the "submit" button. This country has many faults. But lack of compassion ain't one of 'em. And I think these two guys pointed that out quite clearly.<br><br>Now go to your room! <br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 04:29 PM

"i am trying to understand the thinking behind some of the wedge issues that likely drove many voters to the polls"<br><br>Honestly, the issue that sent me to the polls is that Kerry was willing to poison America so he could get into office. That Bush had done more in 4 years than Kerry had done in 20 years. That Kerry insulted international allies and our armed forces. Kerry did nothing to tell us what he'd do other than he had a 'plan', but he was very good at telling us and the rest of the world what's wrong it every thing about America.<br><br>I have no end of contempt for Kerry and you must understand that this is not my attempt at rubbing anyones nose in it, but I am overjoyed that prick is not in the drivers seat of this country.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: The United States today - 11/03/04 11:39 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Thanks guys. Good counterpoints. I was so pissed by Ivan's grossly inaccurate generalization about Americans that I decided not to reply lest I say something regrettable.<br><br>Ivan, that remark was unfair and ill-considered, and I hope the next time you pause a moment before you hit the "submit" button. This country has many faults. But lack of compassion ain't one of 'em. And I think these two guys pointed that out quite clearly.<br><br>Now go to your room!<p><hr></blockquote><p>Denial. smile Great. Ivan's just stupid, but I know it all. C'mon guys! Be wiser. Just think for a moment, why everyone is saying things like me and Stephan. Seriously.<br><br>I generalize because I want to get a point accross. Of course I know not all Americans are the same. That's a given.<br><br>Pause before I hit submit? Don't play this game again. I'm not a stupid kid you should teach a lesson.<br><br>There is much America has given to the world and I don't deny that. My grandma still has a metal bucket for flour that she got during the WW2 as an aid. However, I feel (and other 2-3 billion people in the World) that Bush is riding the wave of former fame of America and doing his own agenda rather than taking a more global perspective. And he convinced many to vote for him just to get his business going. So sorry to see this happen.<br><br>The election was about America, but as in a family you don't only decide for yourself, but you care about your family, America being the strongest country and self appointed police of the world has moral responsibilities. <br><br>The problem is when you elect Bush you don't only decide the fate of Americans! You decide the fate of Iraqis, Palestinians, Afgans, soon Iranis, Syrians, North Koreans, etc.<br><br>People of the world don't care about elections in Canada, India or anywhere else, because these countries no matter how powerfull they are, they don't go and invade other countries. People of the World care about the American president because America became arogant and agressive. People care because they hope for help, but expect danger. :(<br><br>I'm not an American hater by far. Quite the opposite. If the US would pull out from Iraq, would put a bit of pressure on Israel to allow Palestine to become an independent country for a start I and many would feel so much more comfortable and it would be great for America as well.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 05:37 AM

Good post Ivan. Don't think that all of us took your post as a slur against all Americans. As the USA continues to hunker down in isolation, views from the outside our necessary and needed. (When I say isolation I mean listening to the outside. We certainly seem to want to bomb anything that disagrees with us.) <br><br>Eck got chased out of town and you might be the last thorn in the side here from outside the US. As we wallow in our greatness we need a thorn or two. Keep them coming.<br><br><br><br><br>red sox otter pops for sale
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 06:54 AM

"The problem is when you elect Bush you don't only decide the fate of Americans! You decide the fate of Iraqis, Palestinians, Afgans, soon Iranis, Syrians, North Koreans, etc"<br><br>You left out Al-Qa'ida, the Taliban, Hamas, and the PLO. America is making decisions for them to. I'm all kinds of sorry that you're bothered when America goes after people who feel it's okay to slaughter people by the thousands, set off bombs on school buses, teach their children that it's Gods will to kill Jews and Christians, oh yes, and threaten to drop nuclear bombs if they don't get their way. <br><br>I'm dumbfounded. Do you honestly believe they are just misunderstood? That if left alone, they'd play nice? North Korea has threatened to use a nuclear bomb. Not for protection, but because they want to extort from other countries. It's no different if your neighbor stuck a gun in your face and said, 'I can't afford cable, so you're going to give me yours. And in the future, if I want something and don't get it, I'm going to come over here and shoot everyone.' <br><br>Why would anyone support these terrorists is beyond my understanding.<br><br>
Posted by: Pete

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 07:22 AM

Kerry made it very clear he was in support of Israel too, so I don't think all our tensions with the middle east would have magically disappeared just because we didn't vote in Bush.<br><br>I want to believe W. will try and make it right these next 4 years, but for some reason the fact that Cheney isn't running in '08 scares me- if it was me as president, wouldn't I just be able to do whatever I wanted with no fear of affecting my VP's chances in the next election?<br><br>[color:red]C'mon...you know me.</font color=red>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 12:01 PM

Republican control of both houses and the Whitehouse. While GWB might have no cares in the world, with regards to reelection. The senators and congressmen do.<br><br>And if he really does screw up, then the republican party fortunes WILL change when he does leave office. The question he will need to ask himself - can I live retirement under a Hilary Clinton administration?<br><br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 01:40 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The problem is when you elect Bush you don't only decide the fate of Americans! You decide the fate of Iraqis, Palestinians, Afgans, soon Iranis, Syrians, North Koreans, etc.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>This is where the vote didn't matter, remember Kerry saying he'd kill the terrorists too? Either candidate would keep on raping and pillaging the middle east just as happily as every president in the last 50 years has. I didn't see either candidate saying they'd reflect upon US policy and try to understand the terrorists motives. Nope, just KILL 'EM!!<br><br>
Posted by: Pete

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 01:43 PM

Seriously, who's going to get elected in this country (see: large Jewish population) who doesn't come out in favor of Israel and against 'the terrorists'...?<br><br><br><br>[color:red]C'mon...you know me.</font color=red>
Posted by: newkojak

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 01:47 PM

That's one of those areas where the politically correct thing to do often shrouds the real policy of the policy makers. There is no way on Earth John Kerry could have said anything about reevaluating the United State's position in the world. He caught hell for merely suggesting that the President apply some kind of standard of truth and credibility when he wages war.<br><br>As long as group-think rules the day in Washington, you'll never hear any politician stand up for critical reflection, despite their own practice.<br><br>-- Charlie Alpha Roger Yankee Whiskey
Posted by: iraszl

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 02:52 PM

i agree, both candidates were gonna fight terrorists, but we knew how Bush does it. i was hoping Kerry would do it wiser. who knows. i hope Bush will be successful in his war. if there is anything i can help him i would. the only thing is that i'm certainly not convinced that he was chasing terrorists in Iraq. he created many freedom fighters in Iraq though.<br><br>by fixing the Palestinian war he could cut all the issue into half, because that's where most of the ideological support for anti american feelings come from. if the Palestine would be created and it was accepted by most nations in the world, terrorists would loose all their foundings. right now people in the middle east are not shy to give big amounts of money to support the Palestinian case. i have given a small fortune by now myself. all this money that is supposed to go help suffering children usually ends up as funding for bombs and firearms.<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 07:13 PM

Seriously, who's going to get elected in this country (see: large Jewish population) who doesn't come out in favor of Israel and against 'the terrorists'...?<br><br>I dunno man - fewer than 6 M jews in america according to http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html<br>1 M or so in NY where the vote will be Democratic anyway... <br><br>assuming all 6 M Jews vote the same way in favor of a good Isreal policy, that's still only 6M/300M = 2% of US votes. (note that I assume that the proportion of elligible voters in the general population is the same as the proportion of elligible voters in the jewish population - pretty safe assumption). 2%, while enough to have made this election much closer, is still not a sure victory in the polls.<br><br>neye<br><br>
Posted by: Pete

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 07:59 PM

I don't know if it's sheer numbers as it is their positions in high places, and their influence on American society in general...<br><br>'Less than 6 million' can't be right...I have nothing to base that feeling on, but it just doesn't sound accurate.<br><br><br><br>[color:red]C'mon...you know me.</font color=red>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: The United States today - 11/04/04 09:19 PM

I know - less than 6Mil doens't sound right to me either, which is one of the reasons I posted the source - was hoping someone could either confirm or contradict it.<br><br>