Another Kerry Contradiction

Posted by: MattMac112

Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 04:00 PM

This morning on ABC's Good Morning America, John Kerry, explained his "voting for the 87 billion, before voting against it" comment this way:<br><br><br><blockquote><embed src="http://homepage.mac.com/barnett112/.Music/kerryflip.mp3" width=320 height=25 controller="true" autoplay="false" type="video/quicktime"><br><br>KERRY: It just was a very inarticulate way of saying something, and I had one of those inarticulate moments late in the evening when I was dead tired in the primaries and I didn't say something very clearly.</blockquote><br><br>Late in the evening? Dead tired? Hold it a second . . . <br><br><blockquote>"I actually did vote for his $87 billion, before I voted against it," he told a group of veterans at a noontime appearance at Marshall University. He went on to explain that he preliminarily backed the request, so long as it was financed not by deficit spending but with a tax surcharge on the wealthy that Bush opposed.</blockquote><br><br>Source: Washington Post, March 17, 2004<br><br>It was at a NOON meeting, not late in the evening. Is Kerry "flip-flopping"? Is he LYYYYIINNGGG? I wonder if Jennings will point out this inconsistency (excuse/lie/flop) on World News Tonight?<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 04:32 PM

OMG . . . please tell me you are just being silly.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: nutty

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 04:42 PM

and then theres bush:<br><br>Record shows Bush shifting on Iraq war &...nues to evolve <br><br><br>You cant polish a Turd.
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 04:45 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>and then theres bush:<p><hr></blockquote><p>And then there's Kerry:<br><br>not at night, it was noon<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 04:56 PM

heh heh<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Some statements now look off-base after developments in Iraq, such as Bush's response in the first days of the war after learning that Iraqis may have captured some Americans.<br><br>"I do know that we expect them to be treated humanely, just like we'll treat any prisoners of theirs that we capture humanely,'' Bush said, many months before American soldiers committed the atrocities at the Abu Ghraib prison. <p><hr></blockquote><p>and<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"If you want to keep the peace, you've got to have the authorization to use force. ... This is a chance for Congress to indicate support. It's a chance for Congress to say, we support the administration's ability to keep the peace. That's what this is all about.''<br><br>Oct. 7, 2002<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 05:18 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"I do know that we expect them to be treated humanely, just like we'll treat any prisoners of theirs that we capture humanely"<p><hr></blockquote><p>In Sean's world, Bush directly ordered the controversial treatment of the Iraqi prisoners. Probably from the secret Hotline wired from the Oval Office to the Abu Ghraib Bullpen.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"If you want to keep the peace, you've got to have the authorization to use force. ... This is a chance for Congress to indicate support. It's a chance for Congress to say, we support the administration's ability to keep the peace. That's what this is all about.''<p><hr></blockquote><p><blockquote><embed src="http://homepage.mac.com/barnett112/.Music/allawi.mp3" width=320 height=25 controller="true" autoplay="false" type="video/quicktime"><br><br>PRIME MINISTER ALLAWI: Let me explain something, which is very important. I have noticed -- and the media have been neglected and omitted several times -- in the Western media -- Iraq is made out of 18 provinces, 18, 1-8. Out of these 18 provinces, 14 to 15 are completely safe, there are no problems. And I can count them for you, starting from Basra moving into Iraq Kurdistan. [color:red]There are three areas, three provinces where there are pockets of insurgents, pockets of terrorists who are acting there and are moving from there to inflict damage elsewhere in the country.<br><br>So, really, if you care to look at Iraq properly, and go from Basra to Nasiriyah to Kut to Diyala to Najaf to Karbala to Diwaniya to Samaraa to Kirkuk to Sulaymaniyah to Dahuk to Arbil, there are no problems. It's safe, it's good.</font color=red> There are problems in Fallujah. Fallujah is part of a province; the province is called Al Anbar. It's vast, very big; it has many other important towns, such as Ana, such as Rawa, such as Ramadi. There is nothing there. In Ana and Rawa, indeed, there is nothing, no problem, except on a small pocket in Fallujah.<br><br>So, really, I call upon the responsible media -- throughout the world, not only here -- to look at the facts as they are in Iraq and to propagate these facts to the international community.<br><br>I am not trying to undermine that there are dangers. There are dangers in Iraq; there are problems, and we are facing international terrorist onslaught on Iraq. I, personally, receive every day a threat. In the last four weeks, they found four conspiracies to kill me. And, likewise, there are killing people -- they are killing officials, they are killing innocent people. But the Iraqis are not deterred, and we are not going to be deterred. I went the next day and saw our recruitment center for the police, after they killed, massacred 40-45 people. I found hundreds of people coming to be volunteer -- to volunteer to the police and to the army. I spoke to them. They are all upbeat. They are resolved to beat terrorism and to defeat the insurgents.<br><br>These are facts that one really needs to explain to you and you need to explain it to the people.</blockquote><br><br>But we already know what Kerry and liberals think of Allawi . . .<br><br><br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 05:30 PM

CNN just told this story that you're telling. they said, more or less, "no big deal but kerry made to appearances that day and the comments came in the afternoon meeting. republicans are making a big deal about this today. democrats are stepping up their attacks on dubya's flip flopping today."<br><br>good job CNN. don't give in to the massive pressure to be part of the conservative media...stay in the middle.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 06:37 PM

PRIME MINISTER ALLAWI came here to recite speeches written by dubya's speechwriters. he's a puppet of the USA and he's perceived as such by the world and iraqis. <br><br>now, i never said that dubya ordered the abuses in iraq, but i do expect the commander-in-chief to take some responsibility for having the buck stop on his desk. i think dubya should have fired rumsfeld over this. abuses are coming to light in afghanistan as well and other abuses in iraq have also been discovered. this wasn't in isolation. i am amazed at how little responsibility this administration is willing to take on anything that might give them a negative light. but, given that dubya couldn't think of a single mistake he's made at that last major press conference, i am not surprised. <br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 07:01 PM

matt, i was disappointed in you when i thought you were coming up with this supposed "flip flop" on your own because it's just so gosh darn silly and you have a history here of typically rising above something like this. now that i've learned that the republicans were making a big deal about this today, i realize you didn't find this on your own. thank gosh . . . i think. i believe this is about the silliest thing i've ever seen you get angry over (and, not angry in the the literal sense of the word; rather, angry in a frustrated / incredulous way -- i just like using angry today to describe conservatives). <br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 07:21 PM

You've noted the spoor, eh?<br><br>Talking points.<br><br>And such a poor talking point at that. I mean, if the reps are going to go after slips of this kind, how are they going to deal with the torrent of errors of usage, diction, grammar, etc., etc., etc. that Bush falls into?<br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 09:53 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>matt, i was disappointed in you when i thought you were coming up with this supposed "flip flop" on your own because it's just so gosh darn silly and you have a history here of typically rising above something like this. now that i've learned that the republicans were making a big deal about this today, i realize you didn't find this on your own<p><hr></blockquote><p>Pfft...<br><br>I could give a rats ass, Sean. If I had a nickle for every Michael Moore conspiracy theory run here after you guys got yourselves all twisted up after Farenhype 9/11, I'd be posting this using a new G5. Difference being, I don't tweak my nipples over it. Now get your hands out from under your shirt and tell me what you really think about Kerry's blatant lie today. <br><br>Oh yeah . . . <br><br>And a to you too.<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/29/04 10:06 PM

michel moore made a movie that caused a lot of people to think. michael moore since then has done a disservice to the left. personally, i wish he'd shut up. now . . .<br><br>i was trying to give you some leeway for running with a story that has absolutely no significance, but you're still holding out hope that it is a story. my mistake for giving you some credit. i have no opinion of kerry's comments from today -- it's less of a story than the the people trying to make it one. it's silly!<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 07:07 AM

if the kerry thing made you "angry" then wait till you get a load of this (from salon.com):<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>When Bush first started telling the ground zero story, in February of this year, he'd say he remembered walking through the ruins and seeing "a guy pointing at me and saying, 'Don't let me down.'" By March, Bush had the "guy" saying, "'Mr. President, never let me down."<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>he used to say, "don't" and later said, "never" -- OMG! <br><br>and, for those of you who realize how silly this is, but enjoy the comedy of it, here's the rest of this part of the 4 page article:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>One morning in May, Bush said: "I clearly remember a guy in a hard hat" who said, "'Don't let me down.'" Later that same day, Bush said: "I'll never forget the firefighter that pointed at me and said, 'Don't let me down.'" By June, the "guy" had become a whole group of "tired firefighters and police and rescue workers" who said, "'Don't let us down.'" By July, the "guy" was just a guy again, but Bush couldn't remember which kind: "I remember a fireman or a policeman, I can't remember which one, looking me in the eyes and saying, 'Do not let me down.'"<br><br>At about the same time, the guy -- whoever he was -- started getting physical. No longer did he merely point at the passing president; he "grabbed me by the arm," Bush said. One morning in July, Bush said the grabber "was a policeman or a fireman, I don't know which one, but he had tears in his eyes." By that afternoon, the guy had become a "firefighter" again, with "bloodshot eyes and sweat pouring."<br><br>And it kept getting better. In early August, Bush said: "I don't know if he was a firefighter or a policeman -- I do know that he was looking through the rubble for one of his buddies." A week after that, Bush said the guy had been searching for "a loved one." One day later, he had been searching for "somebody that he worked with." And the day after that, he was searching for a "buddy" again, but this time he said: "Mr. President, do not let me down." Two weeks later, Bush had him saying, "You don't let me down."<br><br>And on Sept. 14, 2004 -- the third anniversary of the president's visit to ground zero -- Bush offered up his most vivid memory yet. "I remember a guy grabbed me the arm, a big old burly firefighter, I guess he was a firefighter, he said: 'Do not let me down.'"<br><br>It was, the president said, "a day I'll never forget."<p><hr></blockquote><p>t-r-i-v-i-a-l.<br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 07:09 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>michel moore made a movie that caused a lot of people to think...<p><hr></blockquote><p>...that Moore is a political hack who heavily edits his films to present not the truth, but the "truth" as Michael Moore sees it.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>but you're still holding out hope that it is a story.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not "holding out hope" that it is a story. Exactly how am I doing that Sean? I posted posted audio of Kerry caught lying on ABC. In what way is that "holding out hope" that it is a story? It *does* show that Kerry is still contradicting himself and is not above lying about it.<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: nutty

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 07:10 AM

bush lied, people died. kerry said something about evening instead of noon, no one died.<br><br><br>You cant polish a Turd.
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 07:12 AM

It's a far stretch for Kerry to claim (lie) that it was late in the evening when it was actually very early in the afternoon. <br><br><br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: Bryan

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 07:18 AM

There is no factual proof that "Bush lied." Several government commissions, along with one in Britain, have stated that Bush acted in good faith, on the intelligence he had at the time.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 07:33 AM

he made a few different appearances that day and is now confusing the appearances. <br><br>do you have any idea how many appearances these two guys have been making over the past year? they are in full campaign mode. it's trivial, unlike:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Overstating Iraqi security. At his press conference with interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi last week, Bush said that "nearly 100,000 fully trained and equipped Iraqi soldiers, police officers and other security personnel are working today." But at a Pentagon briefing last week, it became clear that the 100,000 includes about 36,000 police officers who have not completed the two-part training that the Pentagon had planned for them. While the 36,000 officers have completed either three or eight weeks of police academy training -- LAPD recruits spend seven months at a police academy -- it appears that not one of them has completed the 24 weeks of on-the-job training described in Pentagon documents. And as for being fully equipped? Those 36,000 undertrained cops, combined with about 50,000 more the Pentagon lists as "untrained" or "in training," share about 13,000 radios -- or about one for every seven officers -- and some of those have "an interim capability only."<br><br>And when Bush begins to invoke memories of Sept. 11 again tonight, listen carefully -- and not just for another round of suggestions that Saddam Hussein had something to do with it. In a question-and-answer session in December 2001 -- just three months after the attack -- Bush remembered watching the first plane hit the World Trade Center while he was waiting to enter that classroom in Florida. "I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on," Bush said. "And I used to fly, myself, and I said, 'Well, there's one terrible pilot.' I said, 'It must have been a horrible accident.'" Bush repeated the story at another event in January 2002.<br><br>The only problem is, it never happened. The first attack wasn't broadcast live -- who would have known to show it? -- and videotape of it wasn't available until much later. Bush may believe the words he says, but there's no way he saw what he said he saw.<p><hr></blockquote><p>there's a lot more at salon if you enjoy getting reading these things. i was resolved a long time ago to the understanding that all politicians say things that could be considered flip flops all the time, especially when taken out of context . . . that's the nature of the business. i can't help that you only want to believe those that are featured in the conservative media are significant.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 08:06 AM

The comedy is pretty good, Sean. Keep stoking the fire, please. The whole of the Bush campaign seems to have come down to rhetorical schticks like this--not an quark's worth of substance in any of it.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 08:09 AM

or, how about this whopper from the whitehouse.gov website:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Q But, still, those countries who didn't support the Iraqi Freedom operation use the same argument, weapons of mass destruction haven't been found. So what argument will you use now to justify this war?<br><br>THE PRESIDENT: We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories. You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said, Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons. They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two. And we'll find more weapons as time goes on. But for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them.<p><hr></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/g8/interview5.html">link (may, 2003 interview)</a><br><br>holy $#it! now that is a LIE. time of day versus WMD. trivial versus catastrophic. silly versus something you could really get angry over. etc. etc. etc. <br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 08:13 AM

the thing that gets me is that democracy has effectively been reduced to gimmicks. "gore is a liar." "kerry is a flip-flopper."<br><br>anything to avoid issues. people don't really care about issues, i suppose and that's disappointing in and of itself. people claim that they care and that they want to hear issues, but they'd much rather point out a misstatement here and there. that's entertaining. that's something people can grasp hold of. the intricacies of health care is a bunch of blah, blah, blah. they'd much rather talk about a theme that's been played in the media and run with it since that's pounded into their heads (sorta like scott peterson's trial . . . it's manufactured news). quite sad really.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 08:14 AM

Thre you go again, Sean, pointing at substantive stuff. Tch tch tch!<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 08:30 AM

We did find WMDs but we did not find stockpiles or large inventories. Those had already been shipped to Iraq, Jordan and Syria.<br><br>At the time of the quote there were contradicting intelligence on the purpose of those trucks. Some said they were mobile bio labs and other said they were manufacturing hydrogen for weather ballons or something like that. I think it turned out in the final analysis that the trucks weren't for manufacturing bio weapons.<br><br>Sean, as the king of nuance I would have thought you'd have picked up on GWB's. <br><br>See, a lie would be GWB stating something as true that he KNEW was false.<br>When he made this statement did he KNOW the trucks weren't bio labs? No, he didn't. Should he have said "it appears Iraq has got laboratories," Probably but maybe he made this statement when it was late and he was tired and forgot to include that part.<br><br><br>No sig right now, waiting for the next Kerry flip-flop. .
Posted by: nutty

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 08:54 AM

no he didnt lie cmon, he would never lie or stretch the truth or bend his reasoning for the war in iraq. he is bush, he is the second coming. . .<br><br><br><br>You cant polish a Turd.
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 10:25 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>he made a few different appearances that day and is now confusing the appearances. <br><br>do you have any idea how many appearances these two guys have been making over the past year? they are in full campaign mode<p><hr></blockquote><p>No excuses for Kerry's fib are necessary, Sean. Kerry exactly when and where he made that comment . . . He was trying to float a B.S. excuse for it and got caught . . . <br><br><embed src="http://homepage.mac.com/barnett112/.Music/kerryflip.mp3" width=320 height=25 controller="true" autoplay="false" type="video/quicktime"><br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 10:43 AM

um, okay. <br><br>i think Mr. Turkentine summed up what you're saying best (from willie wonka's chocolate factory):<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Of course you don't know! You don't know because only I know. If you knew and I didn't know, then you'd be teaching me instead of me teaching you--and for a student to be teaching his teacher is presumptuous and rude. Do I make myself clear?.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 10:44 AM

Hi all. Well, I'm dipping my toe into this mosh pit.<br><br>Why is it that when Kerry either flat out lies or contradicts himself on the same day, it's considered 'silly'? And yet, when Bush says anything that isn't perfect Kings english, he's accused of lying to the public, going back on his word, etc??<br><br>It's called a double standard, and the Dems are the masters of living by that.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 10:50 AM

i am saying it's all silly. there's no double-standard in that statement. you trying to only see kerry's missteps . . . now that is exactly the double standard i am pointing out. if we want to try and dissect the nuance, i think i can point to dubya lies over much bigger matters than what time of day kerry said this or that on day he had a few appearances, but my point is that they all lie and flop and pander to the respective audience to which they are speaking. <br><br>by the way, can you believe that dubya actually lied and said he watched a plane hit the WTC live on 9/11? of all subject matter to lie about. <br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 11:00 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>by the way, can you believe that dubya actually lied and said he watched a plane hit the WTC live on 9/11? of all subject matter to lie about<p><hr></blockquote><p>See there, I'm one nickle closer to my new G5. Thanks Sean!<br><br><br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 11:17 AM

I was taking your original statement at face value. You're doing a Kerry, by going back and changing the meaning of your statement. <br><br>You didn't say it's 'all' silly, but now that you say it that way, yes, I can agree it's all silly. But this whole thing is dangerous the way the media is taking sides. The media should be hounding them, asking about what will they do in office. Challenging these men to validate, support, almost prove they have thought out plans on education, the economy, the whole works. But the media is taking sides, and that means we lose, because we aren't in a position to question them in the same way.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: Another Kerry Contradiction - 09/30/04 06:20 PM

while i pointed out some dubya things, i never said that it's not all silly. and, while i think it's all silly, i really think it's even more silly to pick apart a kerry afternoon versus evening when i can find example after example of dubya saying something worse; yet, i can sit here and agree it's all silly. but, it grows silly in a sad way when others treat it as something besides silly.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato