how ironic

Posted by: sean

how ironic - 09/24/04 06:53 AM

<a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/23/kerry.allawi.ap/index.html">link (CNN)</a><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"I think the prime minister is, obviously, contradicting his own statement of a few days ago, where he said the terrorists are pouring into the country," Kerry said. "The prime minister and the president are here obviously to put their best face on the policy, but the fact is that the CIA estimates, the reporting, the ground operations and the troops all tell a different story." (Main story: Bush, Allawi pledge cooperation)<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/24/cheney.ap/">link (CNN)</a><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Cheney said Kerry was being disrespectful of a man who had survived an attack by Saddam Hussein's assassins.<p><hr></blockquote><p>and<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The audience mocked Kerry with chants of "flip-flop! flip-flop!"<p><hr></blockquote><p>so, just to get this straight, Allawi changed his position (a flip flop) on iraq and kerry pointed it out. cheney then defends Allawi and he and the crowd get enjoyment out of trying to portray kerry as a flip flopper??? oh, the irony is just too much for me. <br><br>P.S. i love the reason stated by cheney for why kerry should respect Allawi because he had, "survived an attack by Saddam Hussein's assassins." hey cheney, i once survived a car wreck and i was hit by a frenchman driving a Renault. give up the mad respect my way! <br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 07:05 AM

By all means, let's all put our best negative faces forward and hope for the worst. <br><br>I'm wondering Sean, when you see reports of car bombings in Iraq, do you pump your fist in the air and let out a resounding YES!! ?<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 07:19 AM

no, when i see reports of a car bombing in iraq i shake my head and curse dubya and the insurgents. i then see dubya ignoring reality and proclaiming that everything is going according to plan and that they are staying the course in iraq. the president should be able to level with the american people.<br><br>did you see his abbreviated press conference with Allawi yesterday? <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Q Mr. President, you say today that the work in Iraq is tough and will remain tough. And, yet, you travel this country and a central theme of your campaign is that America is safer because of the invasion of Iraq. Can you understand why Americans may not believe you?<p><hr></blockquote><p><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>PRESIDENT BUSH: No. Anybody who says that we are safer with Saddam Hussein in power is wrong. <p><hr></blockquote><p>when the issue of how bad things are in iraq comes up . . . immediately shift back to saddam. got it! but, this reporter was on to dubya:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Q Sir, may I just follow, because I don't think you're really answering the question. I mean, I think you're responding to Senator Kerry, but there are beheadings regularly, the insurgent violence continues, and there are no weapons of mass destruction. My question is, can you understand that Americans may not believe you when you say that America is actually safer today?<p><hr></blockquote><p>so, does dubya answer the question this time or does he stay on message and ignore reality? no need to wait, i have the answer right here:<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>PRESIDENT BUSH: Imagine a world in which Saddam Hussein were still in power. blah, blah, blah.<p><hr></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/09/20040923-8.html">link</a><br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 07:41 AM

That's disingenuous Sean<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>did you see his abbreviated press conference with Allawi yesterday?<br>In reply to:<br><br>Q Mr. President, you say today that the work in Iraq is tough and will remain tough. And, yet, you travel this country and a central theme of your campaign is that America is safer because of the invasion of Iraq. Can you understand why Americans may not believe you?<br><br><br>In reply to:<br><br>PRESIDENT BUSH: No. Anybody who says that we are safer with Saddam Hussein in power is wrong.<br><br><br>when the issue of how bad things are in iraq comes up . . . immediately shift back to saddam. got it! but, this reporter was on to dubya:<br>In reply to:<br><br>Q Sir, may I just follow, because I don't think you're really answering the question. I mean, I think you're responding to Senator Kerry, but there are beheadings regularly, the insurgent violence continues, and there are no weapons of mass destruction. My question is, can you understand that Americans may not believe you when you say that America is actually safer today?<br><br><br>so, does dubya answer the question this time or does he stay on message and ignore reality? no need to wait, i have the answer right here:<br>In reply to:<br><br>PRESIDENT BUSH: Imagine a world in which Saddam Hussein were still in power. blah, blah, blah.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>What was really said.<br><br>Q Mr. President, you say today that the work in Iraq is tough and will remain tough. And, yet, you travel this country and a central theme of your campaign is that America is safer because of the invasion of Iraq. Can you understand why Americans may not believe you?<br><br>PRESIDENT BUSH: No. Anybody who says that we are safer with Saddam Hussein in power is wrong. We went into Iraq because Saddam Hussein defied the demands of the free world. We went into Iraq after diplomacy had failed. And we went into Iraq because I understand after September the 11th we must take threats seriously, before they come to hurt us.<br><br>And I think it's a preposterous claim to say that America would be better off with Saddam Hussein in power. I certainly know that that's the case for America and I certainly know it's the case for the Iraqi people. These are people who were tortured. This good man was abed in a London flat, and he wakes up with two Saddam henchmen there with axes, trying to cut him to pieces with an axe. And, fortunately, he's alive today; fortunately, we call him friend and ally. But he knows what it means to have lived under a society in which a thug like Saddam Hussein would send people with axes to try to kill him in bed in a London flat.<br><br>No, this world is better off with Saddam Hussein in prison.<br><br>Q Sir, may I just follow, because I don't think you're really answering the question. I mean, I think you're responding to Senator Kerry, but there are beheadings regularly, the insurgent violence continues, and there are no weapons of mass destruction. My question is, can you understand that Americans may not believe you when you say that America is actually safer today?<br><br>PRESIDENT BUSH: Imagine a world in which Saddam Hussein were still in power. This is a man who harbored terrorists -- Abu Abbas, Abu Nidal, Zarqawi. This is a man who was a sworn enemy of the United States of America. This is a man who used weapons of mass destruction. Going from tyranny to democracy is hard work, but I think the argument that says that Saddam Hussein -- if Saddam Hussein were still in power, we'd be better off is wrong.<br><br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 07:52 AM

i read the whole transcript. dubya turns it back to saddam twice in a row. that's not disingenuous, that's just misleading. he fails to really address the status quo in iraq and continues to turn back the clock (and, his WMD comment with regard to saddam is turning back the clock to the reagan era). that's not today's iraq. he candy-coats it and ignores it.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 07:53 AM

I'm trying to grasp this whole "America is safer" thing.<br>What is the standard we are tyring to judge here.<br><br>While I would agree that American and coalition soldiers in Iraq are not safer how is America not safer? Do we see any reaction to this in daily life?<br>I mean if American really felt less safe since the Iraq war started wouldn't we see a drop in airline travel, travel to major cities, travel to major sporting events, travel abroad?<br><br>I know the whole "before Iraq there were hundreds of terrorists now there are thousands" theory therefore by extension there are more people who want to travel to the US and blow things up.<br><br>But as everyday passes and nothing gets blown up in America I keep asking, what are they waiting for. If the US is so easy to get into by all these new terrorists and the bombs are so easy to build why don't we have daily bombings in shopping centers and schools and businesses?<br><br>I know we could always face a massive attack with chemicals or biologicals or nukes but those kinds of attacks take money and corrdination and would only serve our resolve to go to war.<br><br>From a total risk assesment standpoint how have the odds increased after the war started that any one person in the US would become thje victim of a domestic terror attack?<br><br>Were the pre-war odds like 1 in a 1,000,000 now it 1 in 950,000?<br><br>I don't have any real conclusion hear just throwing some stuff out to consider.<br><br>Dean Davis<br><br>-----<br>"I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him." -- John Kerry (D) - May 3, 2003
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 08:00 AM

rather than write a long response of blah, blah . . . i'll write a short response of blah, blah. <br><br>the CIA warned dubya that attacking iraq would increase membership to al qaeda. that = a more dangerous world. <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>REUTERS - LONDON - War in Iraq has swollen the ranks of al Qaeda and galvanized the Islamic militant group's will, the International Institute for Strategic Studies said on Wednesday in its annual report.<p><hr></blockquote><p>saddam had no means and no history of attacking the united states. he was effectively contained. that = safe world.<br><br>are we going to see another major attack? of course! that's what will happen when john kerry wins. cheney said so. <br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 08:20 AM

I was asking about a safer America not a safer world.<br>I know we're not supposed to distingiush between the two anymore but just call me old school.<br><br>Dean Davis<br><br>-----<br>"I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him." -- John Kerry (D) - May 3, 2003
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 08:28 AM

well, i think you have to come to a conclusion based on the evidence we now know. saddam was contained and had no WMD. attacking iraq has increased membership and recruiting by al qaeda. more terrorists cannot under any circumstances be a safer america. whether we see the results of the increase in terrorism remains to be seen. the 9/11 attacks took years of training and planning to carry out, so there could easily be plans under way. if al qaeda was willing to take their time with the 9/11 operations then i would guess that they'll be just as careful for the next attack. in the meantime, we (americans) will probably grow complacent again.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 08:45 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>did you see his abbreviated press conference with Allawi yesterday?<p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not sure what you mean by abbreviated. The Press Conference was 47 Minutes long. Are you asking if I've only seen abbreviated highlights? The answer then is no, I watched the entire thing.<br><br>The reporter you're speaking of is NBC's David Gregory. <br><br>Now, speaking of "abbreviated", your quote of Bush's repsonse to Gregory's question is abbreviated. Here's the entire response:<br><br><embed src="http://homepage.mac.com/barnett112/.Music/Bush1.mp3" width=320 height=25 controller="true" autoplay="false" type="video/quicktime"><br><br><br>Putting on a show, Gregory then badgers the President by restating the question Bush already answered:<br><br><br><embed src="http://homepage.mac.com/barnett112/.Music/Bush2.mp3" width=320 height=25 controller="true" autoplay="false" type="video/quicktime"><br><br>Let's be clear, Gregory's question is disingenuous. He should have asked "Can you understand why *some* Americans may not believe you", because, clearly, there are plenty of Americans who do believe we are safer. <br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 08:48 AM

okay, we knew that chalabi was a spy, putz, loser, etc., but what did we know about the man now being trumpeted by the dubya admin?<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Ministers were told premier was seen as stooge<br>By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent<br>(Filed: 24/09/2004)<br><br>British officials gave warning more than two years ago that Iyad Allawi, the interim Iraqi prime minister, was seen as "a western stooge" who "lacked domestic credibility", secret documents seen by The Telegraph reveal.<br><br>The Cabinet Office told ministers a year before the war in Iraq that the external opposition, made up of Mr Allawi's Iraqi National Accord and Ahmad Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress, was "weak, divided and lacks domestic credibility".<br><br>Mr Allawi, who was closely aligned with the CIA, and Mr Chalabi, who was initially the choice of many within the administration as Iraqi leader, were regarded by most Iraqis as "western stooges", warned a "Secret UK Eyes Only" options paper.<p><hr></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/24/wus124.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/09/24/ixhome.html">link</a><br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 08:49 AM

You beat me to it Dean! Didn't mean to repost what you'd already posted.<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 08:59 AM

you should have seen the look on dubya's face when gregory followed up. if looks could kill . . . <br><br>anyway, see my response to slap. dubya didn't address the question rather he turned the clock back and tried to paint that picture; not today's picture.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 11:46 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>you should have seen the look on dubya's face when gregory followed up. if looks could kill . . .<p><hr></blockquote><p>He chuckled at Gregory . . . <br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 12:16 PM

he looked like he'd just seen a ghost on the live and unedited version. watch him when gregory first interrupts -- dubya started calling on another reporter and gregory followed up. a look of horror was on dubya's face.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 12:50 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>he looked like he'd just seen a ghost on the live and unedited version. watch him when gregory first interrupts -- dubya started calling on another reporter and gregory followed up. a look of horror was on dubya's face.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Really?<br><br>Ok . . . Here we go . . . Four frames of Bush during/from Gregory's follow-up question. At what point does "a look of horror" come in?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 01:09 PM

hey, that's great, but there should be quite a few frames of shock or disbelief as he turns from the reporter he starts questioning back to gregory. perhaps he looked back at the other reporter and then back at gregory and that's where your shots came on. i know he looked shocked initially. can i have a link to the site where obtained that and i'll get he images myself?<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: garyW

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 01:20 PM

Gregory: ... you didn't answer the question... <br><br>Bush did appear to have a moment of being taken off guard when Gregory followed up. Not as bad as Sean might have indicated, but not so happy-go-lucky either. <br><br>We see what we want to see. Some of us saw emotion in Kerry's talk today, you saw just the opposite.<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 01:35 PM

oooooh, that's worse that i thought. he looks red as a beet there and i was thinking he had turned white. <br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 01:37 PM

The White House website . . . <br><br>Here are some more . . .<br><br>Here's Bush calling on another reporter:<br><br><br><br><br>Here's Bush as Gregory interrupts the other reporter and re-asks his question . . .<br><br><br><br><br><br>Here's Bush listening to Gregory re-ask the same question . . . <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Here's Bush responding . . . <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Again, what "look of horror"? <br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: garyW

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 01:43 PM

Okay, that pissing match is over. Now... what about those Afghan troops we have fighting in Najaf? <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Michael

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 02:02 PM

Here's Bush with a Quarter Pounder with cheese<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 02:05 PM

HAHAHHAHA!<br><br><br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 06:42 PM

doing frame by frame, which is really not 30fps is not doing what i saw justice, but this one gets close:<br><br><br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 09:56 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>he looked like he'd just seen a ghost on the live and unedited version. watch him when gregory first interrupts -- dubya started calling on another reporter and gregory followed up. a look of horror was on dubya's face.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Exactly when does he look like he sees a ghost and where does the "look of horror" come in? <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: squareman

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 10:09 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Here's Bush with a Quarter Pounder with cheese<p><hr></blockquote><p>I never noticed the resemblance to Clinton before.<br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: how ironic - 09/24/04 10:49 PM

I don't see a look of horror either, just the usual air of ignorance combined with an arrogant smirk as a cover up.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: how ironic - 09/25/04 04:35 AM

yeah, i was incorrectly identifying what i had seen. my first post said, "if looks could kill" and that was much more accurate and that was where took issue with me. looking at individual frames (which, i loses the nuance of his bobbing head), i guess it's more of a pissed off look. not becoming of the man in this situation.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: G4Dualie

Re: how ironic - 09/25/04 10:44 AM

I cannot believe how anal this whole thing is becoming. Now we're down to single frames and looking for the magic bullet?<br><br>A man sees what he wants to see, hears what he wants to hear. You're not going to change his mind. <br><br>MattMac you might find four out of ten people to agree with you, just as surely Sean would find four. One of the remaining two would be trying to fit in to either camp but would never commit, while the remaining chap would be off in the corner eating his boogers. So where does that leave you but all tied up? <br><br>Things will be no different come November 3rd either. You'll still be breaking out the statistics and pie charts and busting our balls. But not until we've had time to step back from all of this will we know what's really going on... say about another thirty years. By then Bush, Kerry, and myself will be dead and buried and we won't give a rat's ass.<br><br>But hey, if MattMac and Sean never posted again I would have to leave this forum for good. You do keep it interesting.<br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: how ironic - 09/25/04 10:53 AM

Hey . . . Someone said the Prez looked as if he'd seen a ghost and had a look of horror on his face. I was just trying to get to the split, atomic level microsecond where this *might* have occurred ... thus far, I can't find either a look of horror or a look that might represent one spotting a ghost.<br><br>CSI: MacMinute<br><br><br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: how ironic - 09/25/04 04:01 PM

I did a nanosecond breakdown and Bush definitely did one of these:<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>luciferase is a four nineteener