Torture?

Posted by: yoyo52

Torture? - 09/23/04 08:45 PM

What do you all think? OK? Not OK? Necessary? Barbaric?<br><br>Led to the questions by this article, on Abu Ghraib more or less, which suggests that torture is SOP.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: Torture? - 09/23/04 09:02 PM

the soldiers returning from iraq who are blogging about their adventures are revealing that we've lost the hearts and minds of the iraqi people . . . and abu ghraib was the dagger that killed our efforts. there are educated iraqis who now believe that the U.S. set up the whole 9/11 thing to use it as an excuse to invade iraq. our failures in our treatment of iraqi prisoners has doomed us in iraq.<br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/23/04 09:10 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>there are educated iraqis who now believe that the U.S. set up the whole 9/11 thing to use it as an excuse to invade iraq. our failures in our treatment of iraqi prisoners has doomed us in iraq.<p><hr></blockquote><p>shoooo...good thing there wasn't a "moving picture" that would insinuate such a thing. It might win an award as a "Documentary" or something.<br><br><br><br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: sean

Re: Torture? - 09/23/04 09:17 PM

NOW with bill moyers is where i saw it and it was an american soldier who joined right after 9/11 who was saying this.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>MURPHY: They were. But there's so much more to do. Akram was happy that Saddam was gone. But at the same time, he was upset that the United States had made lots of promises about rebuilding their country and we hadn't fulfilled the promises. And he can't leave his house with his family.<br><br>I still contact with him over email. He feels unsafe in the streets. At least he says at least under Saddam he felt safe in the streets.<br><br>BRANCACCIO: What about this key controversial issue? Does he feel that you were an occupier?<br><br>MURPHY: He does. And the news they get is very anti-American. It's paranoid.<br><br>BRANCACCIO: Give me an example of what they're hearing.<br><br>MURPHY: One of the prevalent things in the Arab media is that the United States had a hand in September 11th. And even educated Iraqis, I've heard this, that the United States knocked down the Twin Towers, to justify its invasion of Iraq.<br><br>And it boggles my mind, that they could possibly believe that. But it's a problem, when those sorts of ideas are accepted by educated people.<br><br>BRANCACCIO: You even have to have this conversation with someone like your translator friend.<br><br>MURPHY: Yeah. And he's a very intelligent person, speaks excellent English. But they are so… they don't trust the United States. And it's frustrating as a soldier on the ground there, to try to bridge that gap of trust.<p><hr></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript338_full.html">transcript here</a><br><br><a href="http://optruth.org/main.cfm">more non-partisan reading here from the soldiers</a><br><br><br>--<br>one of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/23/04 09:26 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>MURPHY: One of the prevalent things in the Arab media is that the United States had a hand in September 11th. And even educated Iraqis, I've heard this, that the United States knocked down the Twin Towers, to justify its invasion of Iraq.<br><br>And it boggles my mind, that they could possibly believe that. But it's a problem, when those sorts of ideas are accepted by educated people.<p><hr></blockquote><p>That's what I said... Perfect example of the power of propaganda. <br><br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: Michael

Re: Torture? - 09/23/04 09:45 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>there are educated iraqis who now believe that the U.S. set up the whole 9/11 thing to use it as an excuse to invade iraq<p><hr></blockquote><p> <br><br>I've seen some documentaries that have some questions about some very peculiar events of that day. I'm not saying I believe any of it, but I can see how someone who wanted to believe it could. <br><br>Here's a clip from In Plane Site<br><EMBED SRC="http://idisk.mac.com/mikeleboeuf/Public/911 - In Plane Site.mp4", WIDTH=200, HEIGHT=150 CONTROLLER=TRUE AUTOPLAY=FALSE><br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Torture? - 09/23/04 09:56 PM

Is that Art Bell?<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: nutty

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 06:40 AM

interesting. where did you find this stuff?<br><br>You cant polish a Turd.
Posted by: Pete

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 06:58 AM

there are educated iraqis who now believe that the U.S. set up the whole 9/11 thing to use it as an excuse to invade iraq<br><br>Yeah, but educated where and by whom? <br><br>[color:red]C'mon...you know me.</font color=red>
Posted by: Michael

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 07:30 AM

No<br><br>
Posted by: Michael

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 07:33 AM

I got it from the great world wide web, but here is the web site for that documentary www.911inplanesite.com<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 08:10 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>more non-partisan reading here from the soldiers<p><hr></blockquote><p>I'm not saying this proves that the site is partisan but you do know that it is run by the guy (Jonah Sachs) who produced the internet ads for Dean then when his campaign fizzled was approached by Kerry to continue to produce internet ads for his campaign which he continues to do?<br><br>Dean Davis<br><br>-----<br>"I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein. And when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him." -- John Kerry (D) - May 3, 2003
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 04:09 PM

So, what do you all think about torture as SOP?<br><br>Not that I want to hijack the thread, of course <br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 04:21 PM

<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]VOTE</font color=blue>[color:red] for President George W. Bush on November 2, 2004</font color=red>
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 07:03 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>So, what do you all think about torture as SOP?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Al, I think that the SOP is being greatly scrutinized and that is appropriate.<br><br>I also think that the greatest tragedy (to date) of Abu Ghraib, is being played out currently. I believe the following to be pretty accurate:<br><br>"In the original statement issued by his [Paul M. Johnson Jr.] captors, they referred to Abu Ghraib. Now, that whole scandal has been elevated to the level of self-flagellation by our media and by politicians in Washington hoping to gain some kind of political traction from it. They have blood on their hands if they keep this up, because what we're doing is giving ammunition to the likes of the captors of Paul Johnson." - Col. Oliver North - From "Hannity and Colmes" [6/16/04]<br><br>"The media's 'compassion' for these imprisoned miscreants and suspected terrorists [the abused prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison] is a front for their journalistic jihad against the [George W. Bush] administration." - Col. Oliver North - From a commentary in the Washington Times [5/9/04]<br><br><br><br>Sorry about the aforementioned highjack.<br><br> <br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 07:06 PM

Thanks--a response finally! <br><br>Still, I'm not even thinking about Abu Ghraib specifically, but of the practice of torture as SOP, which implies some kind of national approval of the practice--vague and hard to pinpoint, I'll grant you, but there nonetheless. Is torture justified, not specifically there in Abu Ghraib, but as a matter of policy?<br><br>
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 07:40 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Still, I'm not even thinking about Abu Ghraib specifically, but of the practice of torture as SOP, which implies some kind of national approval of the practice--vague and hard to pinpoint, I'll grant you, but there nonetheless. Is torture justified, not specifically there in Abu Ghraib, but as a matter of policy?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Seems to me that the practice of punishment or coercion, in an attempt for gain, is as old as humankind. Is it justified? I believe that the policy makers of the U.S. and the population as a whole, continually strive to make just decisions regarding these matters.<br><br>In the struggle that we are in currently, (the War on Terror) that is not the case. We are confronted with a culture of people that have little choice but to embrace a religion that specifically condones such policy.<br><br> <br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: Trog

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 07:55 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>We are confronted with a culture of people that have little choice but to embrace a religion that specifically condones such policy.<p><hr></blockquote><p>What religion condones torture? Or which "policy" is it condoning? I don't think my eyes have adjusted yet.<br><br>
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 08:16 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>What religion condones torture? Or which "policy" is it condoning? I don't think my eyes have adjusted yet.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.<br><br><br>There are many more passages. And then we could get into Sharia.<br><br><br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: Trog

Re: Torture? - 09/24/04 10:41 PM

Excellent verse!<br><br>Here's a few more. Some, like yours, are about women, and some about children, but these are from a different book.<br><br>Q: What if a child doesn't obey his parents? A: Stoned to death.<br><br>[color:blue]"And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.  And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" (Deuteronomy 21:20-21)</font color=blue><br><br>Q: What if a Master beats his slaves (slaves are ok to have in this book)? A: No problem as long as the slave survives.<br><br>[color:blue]“And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money” (Exodus 21:20-21).</font color=blue><br><br>Q: Is it permitted to sell your own daughter to slavery? A: Sure, but if the Master marries her and she still isn't happy he has to let her go. Very tricky, God must have consulted an attorney on that one!<br><br>[color:blue]“And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed" (Exodus 21:7-8)</font color=blue><br><br>Oh yeah, women out there, don't let your husband piss off God. He will cause your neighbor to rape you.<br><br>[color:blue]"Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbor, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun” (2 Samuel 12:11)."</font color=blue><br><br>You know, I can't think of a single christian parent that has had their unruly child stoned to death, or sold their daughters to slavery. Yet, they consider this book scripture and try to abide by its teachings? How strange. I expect they'll burn.<br><br>
Posted by: nutty

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 07:15 AM

also i heard last night on bill maher, 42% of americans believe iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks<br><br>You cant polish a Turd.
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 07:46 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> also i heard last night on bill maher, 42% of americans believe iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks. <p><hr></blockquote><p> At least that number who believed the lies is getting smaller. 65% believed it at the start of the war.<br><br><br><br><br><br>luciferase is a four nineteener
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 08:01 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You know, I can't think of a single christian parent that has had their unruly child stoned to death, or sold their daughters to slavery. Yet, they consider this book scripture and try to abide by its teachings? How strange. I expect they'll burn.<p><hr></blockquote><p>The Old Testament is an historical account of the basis of many religious beliefs.<br><br>Christianity is firmly rooted in the historical account of The New Testament.<br><br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: Trog

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 09:45 AM

Do christians abide by the ten commandments? The creationism of genesis?<br><br>Good job in avoiding the point though.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 11:03 AM

Hey Trog, without the OT there's no need, or even possibility for the NT. Why a savior if there's no original sin? Why House of Jesse if the Nation of Israel isn't significant? Why Bethlehem, why the escape to Egypt, why the entire antitypological status of every element of the NT if the OT is irrelevant? Not to say that Slap is wrong in distinguishing the "spirit" of the NT from the "letter" of the OT--but that "spirit" has justified a lot of really really nasty behavior, from burning heretics and witches ("Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" is in the OT, but Christians applied it gleefully) to warfare between contending sects, within the Christian communion. After all, Christ himself says that "I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10.24). And evidence of that abounds. Consider the way that some Christian preachers treat the death of Matthew Shepard, for instance. The Grand Dragon of the PA KKK lives in my town, and he's incorporated himself as minister of the Church of Christ, Savior. I could go on.<br><br>No doubt those folks misinterpret Matthew 10.24 and misapply OT texts to justify their behavior. I know that from the inside of Christianity, so to speak, cause I was raised in the general Christian faith and know the texts of Christianity fairly well, at least historically speaking. I don't see the Islamic texts from inside Islam, however. I can't pass judgment.<br><br>
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 12:32 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I don't see the Islamic texts from inside Islam, however. I can't pass judgment.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Rest assured, man - lots of others are plenty willing to.... and apparently they don't have to leave thier home to do it, either!<br><br>max<br>Ruralania
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 01:33 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>After all, Christ himself says that "I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10.24).<p><hr></blockquote><p>That would be: Matthew 10:34<br><br>In context:<br><br> 34 Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! No, I came to bring a sword. 35 I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Your enemies will be right in your own household! <br><br>That would appear to be what "moderate" Muslims, Christians and Others are battling in the War on Terror. <br><br>The answer it seems, is fairly apparent, the "moderates" need to pass judgment. <br><br>The diffuculty it seems, is related to: Matthew 10:24<br><br>24 A student is not greater than the teacher. A servant is not greater than the master. 25 The student shares the teacher's fate. The servant shares the master's fate. And since I, the master of the household, have been called the prince of demons, how much more will it happen to you, the members of the household! 26 But don't be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when everything will be revealed; all that is secret will be made public. 27 What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ears, shout from the housetops for all to hear!<br><br><br><br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: newkojak

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 03:44 PM

Wow... no one here can actually argue an ethical point?<br><br>Let me answer your question directly. Torture is wrong both ethically and pragmatically. Psychologists and agents in the CIA have long proven that torture is an ineffective means of gathering information. That point alone makes torture completely indefensible in any modern value set.<br><br>That is why you are seeing so much avoidance in this thread. A question about torture has people condemning the media and religious tenants. Have some freedom of conscience for God sakes!<br><br>-- Charlie Alpha Roger Yankee Whiskey<br>
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 04:16 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>That is why you are seeing so much avoidance in this thread. A question about torture has people condemning the media and religious tenants. Have some freedom of conscience for God sakes!<p><hr></blockquote><p>The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong: <br><br>Are most definitely associated with the media and religious tenets.<br><br>I believe that Psychologists and agents in the CIA would agree.<br><br>I agree that "freedom of conscience for God sakes!" is appropriate. <br><br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: newkojak

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 04:25 PM

I can understand if you are disagreeing with me operationally, but what we are arguing here is whether or not torture by our government bodies can be appropriate or right. Since our government operates along its own code of law and value system totally separate (although not exclusive) from any religious tract, speaking about the relative merits of Muslim and Christian values does not satisfy the original question.<br><br>In simpler language, bringing up the Koran and the Bible is effectively changing the subject.<br><br>-- Charlie Alpha Roger Yankee Whiskey<br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 08:18 PM

Thanks for correcting the typo.<br><br>I don't understand your particular reading of the passage, however. My typo turns out to be serendipitous in that the earlier passage indicates that the "enemy within" is going to be ideological, and against that ideological enemy the sword is the only answer. Now, I do agree that, if you buy the argument that Iraq was a threat to us ideologically, then in effect that's what we're doing in Iraq. But I don't see how that makes the passage any different from any equally violent passage that you might find in the Koran, let's say. So back to the main event: what I know about Christianity because I'm looking at it from within tells me that surely Christ was speaking metaphorically (ooohhhhh--I can already hear the literalist arguments about to fly); but I can't do the same with Islam because I don't know it anywhere near the same as I do Christianity.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 08:21 PM

I have been entertained, sort of, by the avoidance, although I honestly would like to hear arguments pro and con. I agree with what you say about the ethics--I don't know enough about the operational issue to have more than an emotional basis for agreement with you, though. Still, as Milton says, learning comes from vigorous argument, and I'd like to learn.<br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 08:37 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>although I honestly would like to hear arguments pro and con<p><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry for contributing to the hijack, but that is precisely the reason I had nothing to say about the thread's original subject. There are no pros that I can see. Ethically it is wrong from every single angle, and as newkojak wrote, it isn't particularly useful either.<br>
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 09:22 PM

I like to learn also.<br><br>What would be the metaphorical illustration of a passage such as this?<br><br>[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.<br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 09:26 PM

Third time: I do not know Islam from the inside, nor from the outside either. I've read through the Koran only once, a long long while ago, and without guidance.<br><br>
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 09:31 PM

I'm sorry. I didn't mean it argumentatively.<br><br>Just looking for opinion.<br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Torture? - 09/25/04 10:02 PM

My turn to be sorry. I can't express an opinion cause I don't know the tradition.<br><br>