General Cooling and Fan Questions

Posted by: BrainMan

General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/16/05 09:15 AM

Not to take anything away from maestro and his amazing Frankensteinian G4 in a new body project, I have some questions. I'm not really a modder. That said, I've actually tried to do some of the things I've read here and elsewhere. I've read the "Blow hole" mod, and it makes sense but I'm not ready for that yet. I have a QS G4 with added drives, and new proc.

I cut out the PS fan finger gaurd and removed the speaker. I zipped tied some screen door mesh on the backside of the speaker hole to keep the large dust bunnies and moths out. And I took out the main fan housing and put some cloth type double sided electricians tape on the parts that contact the case to reduce noise.

I downloaded "Temp.Monitor" a couple of days ago and the only sensor readings I get are from the original IBM drive that came with my machine. Currently it's bouncing back and fourth between 39C and 38C, but I know three nights ago it got up to 42C.

By the way, is a fan kicking in to cause the updown of the temps? And are those temps generally OK? Is there a way to check the temps on the other items without buying some gaget? The only other thing I can check is the general air temp comming out of the PS fan with a digital thermometer.

I have a Sonnet Duet dual with it's own heat sink fan, and three other drives (two of which are in a SATA raid).

I was thinking of adding a new, beefier and hopefully quieter Main fan. I think its the 120. But I'm not sure if I need to.
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/16/05 10:31 AM

Brainman, Even though I am bringing an article on this subject, I suggest you do this. Buy a Panaflo 120mm fan for your case fan. The cpu fan is a different story. I do not know what size it is. You could use either Panaflo or Sunon for that one. I would forego the blow hole. If you are feeling adventurous, you could remove the cpu heatsink and use arctic silver 5 compound on the cpus. It really does work. Check for a mod guide here and elsewhere. Wow, thats one hot hard drive. You can purchase hard drive heatsink fan combos for that. I have used them before and that will help. The are cheap too, like $10. You can also try drilling out the pci slot covers with holes. This is about all you can do that I can think of short of buying a new case for it.
-maestro

Post edited by: maestro, at: 2005/09/16 17:33
Posted by: TCPMeta

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/16/05 08:49 PM

Heres what I have done with most of my PCs and my B&W system that now has a home in a ATX case.

120mm and a 80mm fan on the front of the case. The 80mm sits on the buttom front of the case while I have taken out the extra drivebay covers and made a special cover out of metal or even cardboard that has the 120mm fan. They both suck air in. On the back of the system I have anywhere from one to two fans 40mm or 80mm blowing the air out. This keeps a rapid flow of cool air going though the case.If you don't mind noise you can wire the fans to use 12v instead of 5v. This way the fans will run faster but ywt they will be more noise.You can always also buy a Harddrive cooler for like 10 bucks or even cheaper if you know where to locate one. I'm not talking about the big clunky ones that the drive sits in. I'm talking about the one that is a heatsink that has two small 20mm fans. Also you might want to get a bigger heatsink for your videocard. Also you can modify DDR memory heatsinks to work on SDRAM if you use SDRAM. If the system becomes too loud you can always add quark around the case to make it quiet. Oh and also round ribbon cables will help better air flow.
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/17/05 01:20 AM

Round ata cables are a great idea that I forgot. Ramsinks will fit sdr or ddr ram. Those and the smaller hard drive coolers can be found at http://www.newegg.com. They are great and shipping is super fast.
-maestro
Posted by: BrainMan

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/17/05 08:46 AM

Thanks guys:
I rearranged my drives to clear airflow around the one with the working sensor. No improvement. I even opened up my case so it had about an inch and a half gap at the top of the case. I let it sit like that for 15-20 minutes. Still no improvement. I guess heat sinks and fans are the way to go.

I've got a sill mountable air conditioner, that cost me $110. Maybe I'll just build a box for it and run air hoses to my computer. It might be just as easy and in the end cost about the same. Noiser, sure. But I'll just pretend I'm living in 1965 in the Soviet Union.

Maestro, when you write your next article, maybe you could tell me how to get the sensors on your raid, CPU, and drives to show up in Temp. Monitor. It's probably all about the firmware, but still I'm curious.
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/17/05 10:49 AM

The A/C idea is one I thought about too, but it wont work in the winter! LOL. Anyway, you need drives that send sensor info to get the numbers. Most newer drives have it. You can try hardware monitor too. I needed a newer version of the software to get all of my drives to show up. Go with the Panaflos, you will not be sorry. Oh, and keep the case closed. It is designed to work its best then. When my G4 was in the mdd case, I went as far as drilling holes in the bottom of my desk's pc area to help airflow. Oh, and you can get a fan controller that fits a pci slot so you don have to mod your case if you do not want to.
-maestro
Posted by: BrainMan

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/17/05 02:48 PM

Maestro;
Yeah, I figured opening the case ruined the flow. Anyway, I spent the day doing something goofy. I had an old room fan - sort of a gizzmo to take cigarette smoke out of the air. It has a little eight inch fan in a plastic box. To make a long story short I created a flexible hose setup with a 4inch dryer hose with the fan box at the end, to such air out the back. Looks sort of like a limp submarine snorkle. It's sucking a lot of air but only dropped the drive senor temp a degree or two (C). My drive is 36-37C now. It makes me think thats about all I will get from anew case fan. Heat sinks, etc, are also needed.
I'm beginning to appreciate the valuable experience you all have from the combined approaches you have all journaled on these pages.
Posted by: BrainMan

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/17/05 03:08 PM

Oh, I forgot. On the AC, idea, I was thinking of putting the whole AC in a box and then put the box on castors. It would need a drip pan in the bottom for the condensed water comming off the coolant tubes in the back. In the summer putting it outside is best because it puts out a lot of heat. In the winter you could roll it inside, but it's as noisey as a freight train compared to computer fans. But if you owned your own house you could do a little creative remodeling and run it from a closet or basement.
Actually, what makes more sense is to buy one of those little office beverage refridgerators. Drill some holes for all the cables and wires and leave the computer inside the fridge. Just open the door to turn it on/off and load CD/DVD's. Hmmm?
Posted by: TCPMeta

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 12:14 AM

The flea market would be useful for a small fridge. Theres tons of mod guides on the net that cover fridges and PCs. Heck you can always try ebay and get a old SGI server case and put your Apple in it and the AC unit and build like a cardboard or even a fiberglass vent to vent the hot air from the AC compresser to outside.

Post edited by: TCPMeta, at: 2005/09/18 07:21
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 01:11 AM

As for the fans, your large fan is a good idea, but its only going one way, besides Im sure its pretty noisy. The case may be getting over pressurized, which actually looses cooling effectiveness. There is always watercooling. I haven't heard of the fridge idea, but thats interesting, Im gonna look into that.
SIlence is golden, and man's greatest invention is A/C.
-maestro
Posted by: TCPMeta

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 01:17 AM

The only drawback is if you stuff a PC in a fridge you never and i mean never open it. Once you get everything is you want to close it and probly tape it up or something. Last thing you need is condinsation to build up. Unless you put all of the parts in a plastic bin that is water tight.

http://www.overclockers.com/articles975/
Posted by: shadowboxer47

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 06:11 AM

maestro wrote:
Quote:
There is always watercooling.


Water cooling sounds like a good idea. It seems like every day that "universal" water coolers are coming out. There are some pretty decent ones out there. this one for example. Sure, it would take some customization to fit the Mac Hardware, but it certainly can be done.

Post edited by: shadowboxer47, at: 2005/09/18 13:14
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 07:26 AM

That is a great informative article. There are a couple of others out there too. Really water cooling is best for overclocking. It can also be very expensive. I think the kit in the mod is around $400.00. Did you that that mess of wires in there, no wonder it was so noisy and hot!
Its got me thinking though...what if I took my old mdd heatsink and modified it for a water kit.
Hmmm.
-maestro
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 07:26 AM

All of this water cooling talk has got me revved up! I am looking at kits now. Not for the G45 though. I am building a new g3 server and think it will be a good test bed. I found a nice kit from Kingwin thats cheap and has what I will need. The overall mod is going to be based on MacMod.com. Should be pretty cool. Now if I just had a couple hundred bucks lying around.

-maestro

Post edited by: maestro, at: 2005/09/18 15:12
Posted by: BrainMan

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 08:38 AM

I hear ya on the refridgerator concerns.

But if one were to try putting a computer in a fridge, as anyone who has put a sealed tupperware container with hot contents into a fridge will attest, the condensation occures on the INSIDE of the sealed container. Most fridges dehydrate what they contain. So sealing it would not be the right move. On the other hand, most refridgerators are not built to handle someone putting an running hot plate inside of one either. At some point someone would have to figure out how many BTUs a hot computer puts out and compare that with the capabilities of the fridge.

Frankly the water cooled mod makes more sense. You go Maestro.

PS. Thanks all for the parts tips. I'm going shopping now.
Posted by: anil8tor

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 11:01 AM

anyone tried a Peltier junction? My son used one to make a self cooling water bottle for his science fair last year. very cool B) no pun really!
Posted by: shadowboxer47

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 11:03 AM

maestro wrote:
Quote:
All of this water cooling talk has got me revved up! I am looking at kits now. Not for the G45 though. I am building a new g3 server and think it will be a good test bed. I found a nice kit from Kingwin thats cheap and has what I will need. The overall mod is going to be based on MacMod.com. Should be pretty cool. Now if I just had a couple hundred bucks lying around.


You and me both Maestro. I am planning to water cool my 9600 when I finally figure out what processor upgrade I'm going to use. You'll have to keep me updated with any deals you find on systems.
Posted by: TCPMeta

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 12:06 PM

If you have the right tools and know how to weld you can build a water cooling system dirt cheap. The only hard part is building the water block. I made one once before with two chunks of copper and a drill press. It took me four hours to make. Just once chunk at a time and drilled away untill the center was pretty much hollow. Then I clamped them and welded to together then drilled two holes on the top and added two small peices of copper tubbing and welded them on.

Water tanks are the simplest to make. Also the tubbing/hoses are simple. Just go to a medical store to get the rubber tubbing or just use copper tubbing.

You can always find a pump at home depot or some sort of a hobbie store.
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 01:41 PM

For me, I am going to start with a kit. A simple one that will cool the cpu only. From there I am sure to get more brave and understand it enough to go further. Building a cpu block is probably only for the hard core. Anyway, as I begin a build on my wifes computer, the server build is probably a month away. I can't wait! Good luck everyone on your cooling adventures!
-maestro
Posted by: shadowboxer47

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 01:43 PM

TCPMeta wrote:
Quote:
If you have the right tools and know how to weld you can build a water cooling system dirt cheap. The only hard part is building the water block. I made one once before with two chunks of copper and a drill press. It took me four hours to make. Just once chunk at a time and drilled away untill the center was pretty much hollow. Then I clamped them and welded to together then drilled two holes on the top and added two small peices of copper tubbing and welded them on.

Water tanks are the simplest to make. Also the tubbing/hoses are simple. Just go to a medical store to get the rubber tubbing or just use copper tubbing.

You can always find a pump at home depot or some sort of a hobbie store.


You'll HAVE to do a Mod guide on that one! :woohoo:
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 01:46 PM

Heres a pic of the kit im looking at. http://www.frozencpu.com
-maestro

Post edited by: maestro, at: 2005/09/18 20:47

Post edited by: maestro, at: 2005/09/18 20:48
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 01:49 PM

D@mn image editor!
-maestro
Here we go.........
Posted by: shadowboxer47

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 02:12 PM

That looks real nice. Looks like we'll have a wave of watercooled macs.
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 02:17 PM

Yeah, that would be sick. Now everyone will have to do a mod guide on their version. That way, MacMod would be an even better resource.
-maestro
Posted by: TCPMeta

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/18/05 08:32 PM

Theres some recipes out there for cooling fluid. Just have to search for them. You don't just add water and walla it's done. Theres a special fluid you use but some people make their own.
If you want to be cheap out it the best thing to use is raidator fluid. Get the non mixed stuff and some distilled water and mix it. Distilled water isn't conductive.

Thats a werid kit there, The waterblock has the pump built on it. Most kits have a water block, pump and the raidiator.

If you want to try vapor cooling check this out.

http://www.frozencpu.com/ex-blc-215.html

Post edited by: TCPMeta, at: 2005/09/19 03:51
Posted by: maestro

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/19/05 01:09 AM

Wow that vapor cooler is cool and well, HUGE. Yeah, the kit is very simple. Two pieces and thats it. I haven't bought it yet, so I'm still on the look out for something simple and cheap.
-maestro
Posted by: shadowboxer47

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/19/05 02:20 AM

I'm still trying to find a couple decent reviews for these smaller water cooling kits, just to see how they measure up. I really only something for my processor since I'm not really after any massive video card acceleration. Anything over $150 is going to be out of my price range. I'm not going to go that quite fanatical quite yet. :ermm:
Posted by: TCPMeta

Re:General Cooling and Fan Questions - 09/19/05 12:19 PM

I know that CompUSA has a water cooling kit for 100 bucks. Comes with everything.