Happy Labor Day

Posted by: Pirate

Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 07:09 AM

Happy labor day everybody....so it is a union holiday..I am union..how come I am working today??
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 07:50 AM

I'm not union, and I'm working too. Sucks.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 07:54 AM

Happy Labor Day ALL !!


Now raise the f-ing minimum wage !! mad

laugh
Posted by: Papa

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 08:09 AM

I am a one man union and I am on strike today. I am sitting thinking about all the things I should be doing but I am not going to do any of them. I do have some mechanical work to do. I am going to put a rear end in my recliner!!!

Happy Labor Day.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 08:32 AM

Originally Posted By: DLC
Happy Labor Day ALL !!


Now raise the f-ing minimum wage !! mad

laugh



So a worker can have the day off with pay or work today with a higher wage. Choices. Or

Louise and Jim run a small hometown store . They can afford to pay $95 per hour for help so they have 13 employees at $7.25 per Kansas law. If required to pay $8.50 per hour they will need to fire Tom and Maria and work the others harder.

Dave
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 10:44 AM

Two can play that game.

If we follow that line of reasoning then there should never be an increase in minimum wage.
And how did we ever do it in the past without wrecking the economy.
Posted by: Acumowchek

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 10:59 AM

Personally, I would rather see the price for living be lowered
Posted by: DLC

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 11:43 AM

BUT since more workers are making more $, they have more disposable income !

With that increased disposable income, the hometown store gets more business and they have to hire Tom and Maria back !! laugh

2 can play that scenario !! grin

And I sure don't see the CEOs, and mid-managers taking cuts (or turning down raises) to save a few jobs at the bottom, Dave. Nice try, no cigar !
Posted by: Stumpy1

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 12:35 PM

Happy Labor Day to you!

I'm non-union and not working today.

I'm with MrB on the minimum wage thing.

Have a great day! smile
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 12:47 PM

Originally Posted By: MrB
If required to pay $8.50 per hour they will need to fire Tom and Maria and work the others harder.

OR, they can make cutbacks in other areas and/or raise prices a bit to cover costs. You're correct that there are choices to be made, but they don't necessarily have to involve firing people.
Posted by: Papa

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 03:09 PM

In 35 states you make more on welfare than working for minimum wage. That doesn't say much for the welfare system either.

http://tinyurl.com/qhbuaz8
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 05:33 PM

Not pointed at you Papa, it's the Quick Reply box.

Minimum wages jobs, like those at fast food places, were originally meant to be entry level positions for young people and those just entering the job market, not career objectives with salaries capable of supporting a family.

It's a much wider ranging problem of our untrained workforce, which are untrained for a variety of reasons, from social to economic.

Drastic changes in minimum wages would not affect the CEOs or big corporations as much as it would drive the small guy out of business, further separating the classes.

Big Business will always survive, they'll just raise the prices that dictate the market.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: six_of_one
Originally Posted By: MrB
If required to pay $8.50 per hour they will need to fire Tom and Maria and work the others harder.

OR, they can make cutbacks in other areas and/or raise prices a bit to cover costs. You're correct that there are choices to be made, but they don't necessarily have to involve firing people.
Most small guys are on the edge regarding cutbacks etc anyway. The Ma and Pa shops are battling Walmart which can absorb it till the small guy folds.
Posted by: Acumowchek

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 05:41 PM

Quote:
entry level positions for young people and those just entering the job market

Absolutely true.
It was never meant to be a career, but has unfortunately turned out that way.
I remember when Richard Branson said that Americans don't want to make shoes on an assembly line. He was right.
Now they flip burgers.
/rambling
Posted by: Acumowchek

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 05:48 PM

And, oh yeah.
Happy Labor Day everybody!
Now get back to work! grin
Posted by: DLC

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 05:55 PM

You got that right.... because of NAFTA we shipped all the decent paying manufacturing jobs overseas to Asian sweat shops ! Wasn't that mighty "Christian" of us !! sick

Love for Labor Lost !

"More broadly, consider the ever-widening definition of those whom conservatives consider parasites. Time was when their ire was directed at bums on welfare. But even at the program’s peak, the number of Americans on “welfare” — Aid to Families With Dependent Children — never exceeded about 5 percent of the population. And that program’s far less generous successor, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, reaches less than 2 percent of Americans...... The majority of these programs’ beneficiaries are either children, the elderly or working adults ...."
Yeah I agree children and Srs can be such parasites !! wink
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 06:38 PM

Originally Posted By: DLC
You got that right.... because of NAFTA we shipped all the decent paying manufacturing jobs overseas to Asian sweat shops ! Wasn't that mighty "Christian" of us !! sick
I'm not sure what NAFTA or your link has to do with all of this. We were shipping the jobs overseas long before NAFTA.

all the decent paying manufacturing jobs? That sounds like a broad brush stroke.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 06:40 PM

Excuse me... I meant to say they were better paying (for the day) than Fast Food jobs ! wink
Posted by: Jim_

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 06:46 PM

Originally Posted By: DLC
Excuse me... I meant to say they were better paying (for the day) than Fast Food jobs ! wink

How jobs many though? Did it really matter percentage-wise?

I'm not defending NAFTA BTW, just need solid numbers to refute it.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 07:28 PM

Originally Posted By: Jim_
Originally Posted By: six_of_one
Originally Posted By: MrB
If required to pay $8.50 per hour they will need to fire Tom and Maria and work the others harder.

OR, they can make cutbacks in other areas and/or raise prices a bit to cover costs. You're correct that there are choices to be made, but they don't necessarily have to involve firing people.
Most small guys are on the edge regarding cutbacks etc anyway. The Ma and Pa shops are battling Walmart which can absorb it till the small guy folds.

Experience has taught us that Walmart and the like aren't any more willing to absorb such costs than small businesses.

Don't get me wrong, I am no way blaming small business. The fault lies within the very concept of capitalism in the US that advantages business owners (small and large) over those whom they would employ.

There is, after all, a reason that corporations (including small businesses) can enjoy pretty much every protection and advantage of being a person, yet a person doesn't enjoy the same advantages as a corporation (try writing off your rent as an individual, for example) ...

The system is rigged for businesses employing people, not for people themselves trying to survive ...
Posted by: DLC

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 07:45 PM

DOn't have a number since 1994- it'd be an estimate any way. NO one could give you an accurate number because 1 manufacturing job might create 3-4 more that it depends upon... like car manufacturing and car parts manufacturing It's not just the 1 job, it causes a domino effect.
And the results are what we have today ! Bunch of sheetty-azz WalMart and Fast Food jobs so a few can be ultra wealthy.

Example ; 5 of the top 10 billionaires are Walton family kids... WTF would it hurt WalMart to raise salaries a tad to give their workers a "living wage" - the Waltons can damm well afford it. Would it really hurt them to maybe NOT in the top 10 ? crazy
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 09:03 PM

So here's my 2cents worth. We're at a stage of late post-industrial capitalism where the relationship of labor to the means of production is entirely out of whack. It's not just that "good jobs" are exported, or that wealthy corporations are unwilling to pay a fair wage, although those two things do happen, but that good jobs are just simply scarcer and scarcer, not only in the US but everywhere. Why that is has a lot to do with automation and computer control of manufacturing processes and so on. The jobs that are left are not "middle class jobs." The bulk of them fall into service work of one kind or another. Some of those service jobs really can't pay a whole lot more than current minimum wage because the work place functions on a very marginal rate of return. I'm thinking of places like Macdonald's, which are for the most part franchises owned by local small business folks. And yes, once upon a time those jobs were held by people like me when I was in high school. I earned a solid buck and ten cents an hour at Macdonald's, and because I was living at home and being a kid, I actually saved enough money to pay for my first year of college out of my own pocket. Now, though, those jobs have become the source of income for adults with their own families--and the jobs simply cannot support that model.

I have no clue how we're going to work out of this mess--or even if we'll be able to do so. Something's got to give, and I'm afraid that the thing that's going to give is the middle class. And when that disappears, so will the groundwork for democratic government. The velvet fascism that we're undergoing now pushes in that direction as well. In my dreams what I fantasize might happen is an economic system like what seems to be in place in Star Trek. Except for the Ferengi, no one seems to use money in that universe. People work because they see the dignity of work, not because they have to do so to earn money to survive. I know--an impossible dream.

Sigh.
Posted by: MrB

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By: DLC
BUT since more workers are making more $, they have more disposable income !

With that increased disposable income, the hometown store gets more business and they have to hire Tom and Maria back !! laugh

2 can play that scenario !! grin

And I sure don't see the CEOs, and mid-managers taking cuts (or turning down raises) to save a few jobs at the bottom, Dave. Nice try, no cigar !



Then, after every business having to lay out more for expenses they will raise their prices for their goods and services so the workers will have to pay more thus reducing their standard of living.

It's a vicious circle.

I'm not against workers getting a raise, but I'm just against the government requiring employers to give that raise. It's not really a raise anyway.

I don't smoke so keep the cigar smile

Dave
Posted by: MrB

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 09:48 PM

Been watching the History channel presentation of the Men who built America. I'm fascinated with their history portrayal of Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Morgan and Ford.

Especially when they give the comparison of money then and it's equivalent not. It's all over the place.

At onetime they have. 12 year old Andy Carnegie working at an early telegraph office doing errands . His wage is $2.50 per week, which they say is equivalent to $1000 now. He had to quit school to help his family expenses, showing him giving his money over to his mother who shakes her head in sadness that he has to give his meager wage to her. meager! If its equivalent to $1000 then that means young Andy is bringing $48,000 yearly.

That's not bad in today's economy. Would support his whole fam.

Other times they give inflation factor of 15 others at 200 and even others at 1000 and 1800 onetime. Don't know how they are figuring it.

I've always seen the inflection factor of about 25 to 30 from mid. 1800's to modern.

Dave
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/02/13 10:22 PM

Quote:
Then, after every business having to lay out more for expenses they will raise their prices for their goods and services so the workers will have to pay more thus reducing their standard of living.

So just to get this right;

If
raising wages = increases the costs of goods = lower standard of living

then it logically follows that
lowering wages = decreases the costs of goods = raised standard of living

Both of which are demonstrably untrue ...

And the ultimate theoretical conclusion should be that paying workers nothing will equal free goods for all, which is of course ridiculous.

The trick is to pay employees enough to have *disposable* income, upon which our entire economy is based. Simply paying employees barely enough to get along encourages a system that feeds off of a large working class to the benefit of a relatively small owner class.

Which is exactly the direction we're seeing now ...
Posted by: DLC

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/03/13 12:40 PM

You mention the small business, many would be exempt if they employee few people -I forget the cut off 20? But increasing MW might NOT affect them.
MW Laws
Plus many employees are exempted...
AND they could get around it by turning all hr employees into salaried ones at the same weekly rate ! crazy So if they're paying $7.25/ hr... salary them at $1200 / month ! Not a good solution, but IF they were truly desperate (make or break) they could take that option.

BUT one problem with a low MW is that it feeds into those that prefer welfare to work... at the current wage, welfare pays better ! Not right, but many feel the big guys play by their own rules, so why shouldn't they? NOT appropriate, but hard to argue against.

IF the Govt didn't set some kind of low bar w MW laws, we'd have sweatshops like Asia !!

No good answers on either side, Dave.

Addendum: according to this STUDY a 10% increase in wages would result in prices rising only 1.6%, but could result in a 2.5% decrease in employment. Like I said NO good answers !! frown

How about we tie a increase in the MW to every time Congress raises their own salary ! IF we'd done that 25 years ago, the MW would now be $50 / hr !!! laugh


Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/03/13 12:59 PM

Graphs and charts.. wheeee.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/06/speedup-americans-working-harder-charts
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/03/13 02:33 PM

Facts facts facts. Next thing you know we'll have to pay attention to reality.
Posted by: Pirate

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/03/13 05:09 PM

Originally Posted By: yoyo52
Facts facts facts. Next thing you know we'll have to pay attention to reality.


heck I am so broke I can't even pay attention.
while I work for at a union shop the notion that union workers make more money than non union at least at my place is wrong...it is an in house union..last contract we were able to get...are you ready for this...our pay was set at
...min. wage....????? how strong is my union ...Min. wage
really??? we did get the company to throw in a couple of paid breaks a day...that we never get to take because of schedule conflicts...got another 2 years on the contract.
Posted by: DLC

Re: Happy Labor Day - 09/03/13 07:02 PM

This is where Corporate America, the GOP, and many right wingers have most workers snowballed !! . . duped ! . . suckered !! .It'll continue until they get fed up then there'll be strikes and riots !! . . . . and we'll go through the 30s and 40s again !! eek

Who said "History repeats itself" ?? spot on !!