For those who actually care...

Posted by: Alec_Fromm

For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 05:39 AM

... about our planet.<br><br>Are there so few who care or are there so many who choose to "bury their heads in the sand"?<br><br>- a.k.a. Mississauga -
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 05:56 AM

I saw that on Monday. Yep! We're past the point that we can stop or reverse the trend. We might not even be able to slow it no matter what we do.<br><br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 06:20 AM

Tell China to care. They are building coal plants faster than you can blink an eye and the bulk of them are financed and built by Power Corp. Remember that name? Do you know who the happy bunch are running that show? Kyoto is all about grabbing money from us and paying the Chinese so they can give a big fat cheque to Power Corp. <br><br>Carbon taxes are a joke. Ask Britain and the rest of Europe. They are reeling from taxation. There is no such thing as revenue neutral. Big corps always pass their costs on down the line.<br><br>Governments, ALL of them, have tons of our money. Unfortunately the bulk of it goes to self interest groups in payback for votes. If half of that amount was invested into non fossil fuel start ups we'd be ahead of the game.<br><br>The other point I want to make is so called environmentalists are mostly to blame for our current situation. Many of those who cry "save the whales, save the bears, save the birdies, save the earth" are also those who will fight tooth and nail against building nuclear generating plants or wind farms in their backyard. I have found when it comes down to the crunch at least 75% or more are a bunch of hypocrites.<br><br>We don't need more stinking taxes. We need governments with balls to forge right ahead building alternative energy sources and be damned the "studies" and protests from "environmental elitists". It all should have begun a decade ago.<br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by margadagio on 06/25/08 10:54 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 06:32 AM

It all should have begun a decade ago.<br><br>It should have begun 35 years ago.<br><br>
Posted by: Alec_Fromm

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 08:26 AM

OK, but every individual can still do their part to ease the burden on Mother Earth's shoulders. Pointing fingers is all well and good... so long as those doing the pointing are not guilty themselves.<br><br><br><br>- a.k.a. Mississauga -
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 08:39 AM

The problem with China and India and Brazil and other just-industrializing nations is that the industrialized world has not developed a method by which to avoid the levels of pollution necessary to become industrialized. I know that's a convoluted sentence, but let's face it: if a nation is going to become an industrial major player, the only way to do it is by burning a lot of fuel. And the reason that's the only way to do it is because we (and by "we" I mean the industrialized world) have not developed a different, more ecologically sound way to do it.<br><br>Why should "we" be responsible for developing such a way? Well, "we" have the money and the technology and the scientific infrastructure to do so, while the just-developed nations do not. I don't mean to absolve nations like India and so on, but if there's responsibility for the mess, then "we" have the lion's share of it.<br><br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: iBookmaster

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 09:24 AM

Yeah, taxes would help some but it's not the answer. I truly believe the real answer is global population reduction. It probably will never happen but if we cut the population to 2 or 3 billion, it would cut all pollutants by that same amount along with solar, wind, alternative fuels. <br><br>Too many lives they've spent across the ocean. Too much money been spent upon the moon. Well, until they make it right, I hope they never sleep at night. They better make some changes and do it soon. -Things Goin' On/Lynyrd Skynyrd
Posted by: margadagio

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 09:53 AM

Good luck with that idea. I agree but try convincing those who feel they are entitled to their 1.5 kids.<br><br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 10:11 AM

Of course everyone can do their own bit and that's important but everyone of us is guilty of some thing or another.<br><br>Here's some ideas:<br><br>Turn off the AC and take your clothes off.<br>Plan your weekly needs ahead so you don't need to run to the store daily.<br>Plan meals. I usually cook two days worth of meals at a time. That alone saves big in energy.<br>Buy groceries produced as close to home as possible. Throw China junk back where it belongs. It may cost a bit more to buy local but I certainly feel the better for it.<br>Park the V6 or V8 car. You don't really need it, only your ego does.<br>Support local alternative energy initiatives instead of whining. Let your government officials know how you feel and that you applaud any green energy plan. Spit on protestors. <br><br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 10:19 AM

All we need is one good plague. Overpopulation certainly lends itself to such a scenario. No, I'm not wishing for the world to get sick and die, but I saw a piece about the Black Death on the History Channel and I was stunned at the percentage of the population that sucummed. It's not like I stayed at a Holiday Inn, but it's not rocket science, either, to imagine what could happen today. With globalization, we're just a bite of raw fruit or a sneeze on a crowded plane away from a Stephen King book.<br><br>I'm working too hard. I get three or four thoughts away from the project and look what happens. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:white]xx</font color=white>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 10:55 AM

1.5 kids isn't a problem. A couple having two kids isn't overpopulating the earth. It's the people with 3, 4, 5, 6...<br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!
Posted by: Alec_Fromm

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 11:06 AM

Great response, Al! Bravo!!!<br><br>- a.k.a. Mississauga -
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 12:42 PM

Turn off the AC and take your clothes off.<br><br>Come down here and try that. This time of year, just breathing makes you sweat.<br><br><br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by MacBozo on 06/25/08 04:03 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 01:36 PM

I really don't think "population control" is the answer. At least nowhere near the top answer. Consumption and emissions in developed countries are by far the highest compared to, for example, most of Africa, where population is booming but they still have no where near the consumption and emission rates we do.<br><br>Of course a big plague along the lines of Lea's thinking, taking out massive amounts of people in one go would improve the situation. Environmentally, anyway...<br><br>Things will still go on largely unchanged. I haven't heard much in the way for alternatives to the huge of amount of fuel burned by jetplanes flying all over the world every day. And there are numerous problems along these lines.<br><br>I try to do my part, but I am afraid the only way things are going to get better is after they get a lot worse. I would think it was impossible, but has anyone looked at Germany's example? Man, they know how to get things done over there. They have put all kinds of things in motion in the last few decades: windpower as I mentioned in a previous post, and some cities over there are achieving amazing levels of recycling, and safe sustainable disposal of the leftover garbage. <br><br>We are STILL what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 04:14 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Turn off the AC and take your clothes off.<p><hr></blockquote><p>It costs less to cool a house than it does to warm one. Do you turn your heat off in the winter and wear a coat and hat? <br><br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 04:32 PM

Alec was saying about everyone doing their bit. I do mine by keeping the AC off. I may be uncomfortable but I won't die from a little sweating. It's a certainty I will die without a little warmth and since the condo board doesn't allow campfires in my unit, I reluctantly put the heat on. <br><br>It isn't about cost. You've missed the entire point. It's about the accumulation of a bunch of little things that make a difference in our energy usage. Like Alec said, folks like to point fingers and say someone should do something. Well, that someone should be you or me or a million folks. The problem is the majority don't want to give up their technological comforts.<br><br>
Posted by: MrB

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 05:44 PM

Would like to know how this guy gets around. He talks a good talk but what is his personal situation.<br><br>I remember way back when Ralph Nader was trying to sell books in the 70's. Some one wondered what car he drove. He responded that he didn't drive a car but that he used taxies.<br><br>Well, my goodness to golly, riding in a taxie sure saves on the use of cars. <br><br>dave<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 06:03 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Well, my goodness to golly, riding in a taxie sure saves on the use of cars. <p><hr></blockquote><p> It makes a large difference. The amount of oil used to create a car is substantial. Sharing vehicles such as taxis saves a huge amount.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 06:32 PM

When I was in graduate school and very very poor, we lived in an apt. right across from Fresh Pond, in Cambridge. There was nothing between us and the great N'east except the pond and some bleachers (from which I learned never ever again to live anywhere across from a park with bleachers . . . but that's a different story). In the winters we kept the thermostat at 55 F. One winter, a couple of friends came to visit and stayed for a week. They never removed their coats the whole time they were there. We felt a little bad about it. <br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: MrB

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 06:42 PM

But you still have to make the taxies and to run them. <br><br>dave<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: carp

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 07:23 PM

[color:blue]Why should "we" be responsible for developing such a way?</font color=blue> - Well I cannot say for sure about China but I know here we are forced to install special scrubbing filters in all smoke stacks - these filters are very expensive around 100,000 each and have to be cleaned or replaced constantly.<br><br>Sooooo when EPA came a knocking many plants just shut down. Example we had a recycling steel plant that shredded cars, melted them and made foundation re-bar that went into concrete. Their estimated cost for 2 filters and retrofitting 2 smoke stacks was close to 600,000 and the estimated "yearly maintenance" cleaning and changing filters was close to 1,000,000 per year ----> It was cheaper to buy the re-bar from China and PAY for the shipping and you would still be cheaper then having the re-bar made 10 miles away locally<br><br>Are we getting the real world or do I need to give more examples??<br><br>[color:blue]Well, "we" have the money and the technology and the scientific infrastructure to do so,</font color=blue><br><br>scientific infrastructure - It was them who came up with a 100,000 filter<br><br>Technology - Well not here yet maybe some day? so long its not another 100,000 dollar filter<br><br>Money ?? whos money us, them, ours ?? I don't know<br>The companies that can absorb the filter cost, will simply pass that cost down to the consumers - The companies that cannot will either outsource to China or similar or simply just shut down<br><br>Now I don't wanna hear any crap about the US NOT doing enough,, sure the scientific infrastructure can do better but its not only about finding cheap arse labor either. In the whole just doing business in the US is incredibly expensive compare to emerging countries because the don't have a EPA on their arse<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 07:34 PM

This is starting to sound like a Monty Python skit. :-) <br><br>When I was a kid we were also very poor and lived across from the smelly Taunton River. When we ran out of oil it got so cold that the water pipes froze and we couldn't flush the toilet. We used to boil water on the electric stove, when the electricity wasn't shut off, and pour it into the toilet bowl to try to thaw it out so that we could flush it. <br><br>We also used to boil water on the kitchen stove and pour it into the bathtub so that we could take a bath in warm water. When there was no oil, there was no hot water. Everyone in the family had to use the same bath water, so we would fight over who would go first. <br><br>I wonder if that makes my carbon footprint smaller? <br><br>
Posted by: Nagromme

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 08:21 PM

It's never "too late" if "too late" means that action no longer matters and laziness/ignorance becomes harmless.<br><br>Worst case: things are bad and going to get worse no matter what. (Probably true.) I sure as heck want to do my part to control how MUCH worse! And I surely want as many others to do so as possible. If it's a choice between 15% of people changing their habits and 20%, I want the 20%!<br><br>nagr[color:red]o</font color=red>mme<br><br>I require stroyent!<br>TeamMacOSX.com | MacClan.net
Posted by: John_Lasruk

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 08:39 PM

As Carp has pointed out, the issues are complex, though the temptation is to look only at blindingly simple solutions because that's what we understand on a visceral level. People DO die of the heat, particularly those who live in old fashioned hotbox apartments with no cross-ventilation and not located near a nice cool lake. Do we give them a free pass, but allow others, perhaps the aged, to die because they can not tolerate as much heat as younger people? How do we evaluate these sorts of things?<br><br>Speaking for myself, I believe I can do better. I also believe I have already done better (all my house lights are fluorescents, except for the appliance bulbs.) But do I have to give up the two or three weeks a year I run the air conditioning? When I put in central air, my electricity bill dropped because the new unit was a lot more efficient than the two window units I used to have. Doesn't that count for something? The car I drive has 6 cylinders, true. But would it serve the cause if I bought a new four banger? New cars cost energy to manufacture. Besides, My nasty six is fourteen years old and has 75,000 kilometers (about 50,000 miles) on it, so I use less gasoline than that boastful fellow with a hybrid down the street.<br><br>I also use less electricity than I did a couple of years ago because when my wife died I no longer had to pay the cost of running an oxygen generator 24 hours a day. I'm not going to ask whether we should abandon the seriously ill because that would be a rather fatuous question.<br><br>The fact is, we live in the modern world. The only way we could go back to using the amount of energy we did a couple of hundred years ago and producing as little pollution as a citizen of the third world today would be if we were willing to accept that standard of living and the consequent shorter lifespan. Our best hope is that we improve the efficiency of what we do now, but, like it or not, we are (I believe) already past the point of no return. If we, as a species, do manage to pull it off and save the Earth, it certainly will not be due to finger pointing and blame finding, but to a sudden (not very human) realization that individual responsibility is what is desperately needed.<br><br>[color:blue]Laz, OFI[/i]<br></font color=blue>[color:green]<br>Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.<br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 09:26 PM

Well said. You shouldn't feel guilty about running your air conditioner, or driving your car - you simply should evaluate yourself and see what little changes you can make. Many of those changes are painless, and will have a positive financial impact for you.<br><br>As you say, it's a modern world, and we won't - and shouldn't - go back to the dark ages. Unfortunately as popular as all the "green" talk is, ultimately people don't realize the climate will ultimately do what it wants to do. Yes, we certainly have our impact, but we're also constantly improving those things we use that do impact it. We're along for the ride, rocking the boat as we go. The earth will be here a billion years after man has died out.<br><br>If anyone here were really serious about doing their part, they'd dump those power sucking macs and build a linux machine with one of these:<br><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NCPuaUIN8wA&hl=en&rel=0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NCPuaUIN8wA&hl=en&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object><br><br>Apple needs to get on the ball. :P<br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 09:41 PM

"But you still have to make the taxies and to run them."<br><br>True, but it's a number of people using the same vehicle, rather than each person having their own vehicle.<br><br>When I lived in a city I would hire a car if I really needed one, as it worked out cheaper to do that a few times a year than to buy and tax and insure and mend one - and it was also more ecological, as I was just sharing the use of one fairly new vehicle that's fairly clean to run. Now that I'm miles from the nearest anything, I need a vehicle. On Friday I'll rent a bike and find out whether I can cycle or not (my knees were too knackered last time I tried) but otherwise it's 45 minutes cross-fields walk to the nearest bus stop, which won't be doable in winter. I was planning to move to a village with a bus service, but got gypped by the landlord at the last minute and ended up where I am instead. So I drive and regret it.<br><br>- padmavyuha<br><br>[color:purple]A lopsided man runs best along the little side-hills of success<br>- Frank Moore Colby</font color=purple><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by padmavyuha on 06/26/08 00:43 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 09:53 PM

Oh, and I was reading a New Scientist article a few months ago a report that claimed that divorce is bad for the environment because it usually results in the two parties getting their own places, each with their own white goods etc. This is of course nonsense - what's bad for the environment is not divorce, but the number of people in the developed world who choose to live on their own rather than sharing houses or living communally. Currently living on my own in a cottage in Somerset, I'm licking my wounds and recovering from a bad marriage breakup (and checking out who I am when no-one else is around to tell me, after 8 years in Buddhist communities and 2 years of marrriage), but I've always been happier living with other people, and intend to again soon. More economical, more ecological, more challenging but more fun. People in the UK are finding it harder and harder to find accommodation in cities because everyone wants to live on their own and that just fills up a lot more buildings. And each person's got their own fridge, freezer, microwave, phones, TV, DVD, etc. etc.<br><br>- padmavyuha<br><br>[color:purple]A lopsided man runs best along the little side-hills of success<br>- Frank Moore Colby</font color=purple>
Posted by: carp

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/25/08 10:06 PM

Thanks John very well said;<br><br>But lets not forget that "Mother Nature" herself spews out SO2 levels in the form of volcano eruptions and other calamities that we "puny" humans could ever produce - Sure we are adding to the pollution but compared to mother nature we are nothing in the contribution !<br><br>
Posted by: John_Lasruk

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 05:20 AM

Fair enough Steve, but remember, the system was delicately in balance before we started throwing garbage into it. We might not be adding as much or as many toxins to it as Ma Nature does naturally (though I couldn't debate that; I'm no expert) but there can be little doubt that at the very least we are adding the straw that broke the camel's back. And, by this time we are certain that whatever amount we are adding, it IS affecting climate. And Man is too stupid to understand the ultimate repercussions of that.<br><br>[color:blue]Laz, OFI[/i]<br></font color=blue>[color:green]<br>Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.<br>
Posted by: Alec_Fromm

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 05:49 AM

John,<br><br>The fact you are conscious of the issues and don't live a "wasteful" lifestyle is a huge leap in the right direction.<br><br>MANY folks live an excessive lifestyle and their wealth allows them to ignore the frailty of the environment. Those are the people whose bad habits will be next to impossible to change. It's the middle class who may have the greatest positive impact on the environment. Those who are near, at or below the poverty line cannot be blamed for not taking grand steps in saving the planet. Heck, they're the ones who suffer most when the cost of living rises. It's hard to say they should head out and spend money on comparatively expensive CFLs.<br><br>The biggest part of the population can have the largest impact and should! Even the smallest efforts can have healthy effects.<br><br>- a.k.a. Mississauga -
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 05:58 AM

Yep! CFLs all around here, AC set at 78 degrees or above for the duration of summer (when we have to heat during our so called winter, it's 68 or less), driving only for essential purposes, reusable shopping bags. If lots of folks do little, simple things, the cumulative effect is large.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 06:03 AM

Speaking of reusable shopping bags I have come up with an ingenious way to keep from forgetting the dang bags in the car. I thought I had this whipped but I still continue to forget them. I convinced my store to put a large flashing sign (LED of course) which says, "Hey Idiot, did you leave your bags in the car?"<br><br>Actually they didn't go with the blinky lights so I am still forgetting my bags but I can see that it might work eventually.<br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 06:12 AM

Or remembering to put them back in the car for the next time. <br><br>
Posted by: John_Lasruk

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 07:01 AM

Ultimately, I have to agree with Sarge. The real problem is overpopulation. And that doesn't just apply to China (where they are doing something about it) or India (where they are not), but here in North America, where politicians are still mouthing the old truism that more people equals more prosperity. Even here in Canada, I believe we are overpopulated. Not, of course if you simply take the area of the country and divide by the number of people. But a vast amount of the place is uninhabitable or not viable for farming, not to mention the huge area that simply doesn't belong to us (it belongs to the aboriginal peoples). We should not be letting third world nations off the hook on this issue simply because we feel guilty about their poverty, nor should we refrain from self-examination in the matter, notwithstanding the bleating of lunatic religious types. Our poor old planet is not built to sustain six or seven billion squirming human parasites.<br><br>[color:blue]Laz, OFI[/i]<br></font color=blue>[color:green]<br>Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.<br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 07:42 AM

Wrong!!!!! The system has NEVER EVER been in delicate balance. The earth's climatic changes have been in a state of ups and downs since its creation. We still don't have answers why the earth has gone through so many heating and cooling periods, some of them so dramatic that the landscape and the seas have been permanently changed. Technological mankind is a mere blip on the radar screen. A thousand years ago the earth was much much warmer then it suddenly reversed to a cooling trend. Now we have gone up and starting to go down. Up and down like a yoyo.<br><br>Ma Nature does what she wants and the forces of the universe are beyond our control. Mankind assumes we are some kind of controlling gods. It's the height of conceit that somehow we are more special than the dinosaurs. We will surly die off someday just as they did. It's inevitable that somewhere along the line there will be some catastrophic event that will change the course of earth's history. At best we may contribute to climatic changes by a few thousand years through increased CO2 output. <br><br>My trip to Hawaii changed my outlook on mankind's place in the world forever. Pele knows. Nothing in my 56 years ever effected me so profoundly.<br><br>
Posted by: Jim_

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 08:11 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Ma Nature does what she wants and the forces of the universe are beyond our control. Mankind assumes we are some kind of controlling gods. It's the height of conceit that somehow we are more special than the dinosaurs.<p><hr></blockquote><p>That pretty much sums up my thoughts on it. We give ourselves too much credit at being able to affect such drastic climatic swings. Yes we can pollute a lake, or make the skies grey in a small area, or overfish an area, bring a species to extinction, but as far as climate goes to think we can control the enormous force that is Mother Nature is quite conceited. People have no idea of the power if they think so. We've been trying to make it rain for years, and talk of taming Hurricanes is hilarious, people don't realize all the forces at work.<br><br>------>#1 - JD's Trivia game<br><br>------>#2 - MM-MCF Trivia game
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 08:26 AM

It's the height of conceit that somehow we are more special than the dinosaurs.<br><br>Except there is measurable evidence that the changes have been significantly accelerated since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. We're spewing more crap into the environment than Mother Nature can filter out. <br><br>
Posted by: John_Lasruk

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 09:09 AM

There is, after all, a difference between controlling the weather (which we can't do) and sending it out of control (which we are doing). And just because the system fluctuates somewhat does not mean that it is not in balance, just that its normal cycles may be longer or shorter than we can measure. As far as science knows, the disappearing Greenland and Antarctic ice caps are by no means part of any "normal" cycle.<br><br>Laz, OFI[/i][color:green]<br>Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho </font color=green>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 10:12 AM

There is also evidence that where the dinos seem perfectly happy being on carp's swimsuit, we wouldn't be. By that I mean that we can foresee, dinos couldn't, and that makes a heck of a difference.<br><br>One of the things we can foresee is that the ecological balance is pretty finely tuned, so that what might be a relatively trivial change can have dire consequences. It's like the joke film where the car is hanging over the lip of the ferry boat, and a pelican lands on the car's hood and tips it over into the sea. The planet's like the car, and we're the pelican.<br><br>Now, I mightf agree that the extinction of humans is no more significant than the extinction of dinos. Except that I'm a human, and so is my wife and my son and, if there come to be such things, my grandchildren. On the whole, I'm inordinately attached to the folks who are living and would be to the ones who might be living in the future. I don't want them extinct. Hell, I don't want tigers or polar bears extinct, and am terribly sorry that so many critters are needlessly extinct because of human action. Passenger pigeons come to mind. It'd be neat to see the flocks of pigeons that are described in historical records, but they were just destroyed because humans love to shoot at things. And here we are, setting up circumstances for the extinction of all those creatures along with us.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 10:15 AM

You nailed it. "As far as science knows". <br><br>I maintain we know little or nothing. You're going to try and say there has always been ice caps? There has never been melting? or freezing?<br><br>How do you suppose old wooden sailing ships sailed through the Northwest Passage when up until a few years ago it was not passible without specially built ice breakers?<br><br>The less dense an area of ice is, the faster it melts. That's a fact. I'm not all surprised to see an escalation of melting in the Arctic.<br><br>The Antarctic is a whole other story.<br><br>Antarctic wiki<br><br>Satellite Record<br><br>In contrast to work done since the last period where cooling was topical, the 1970's, satellite imagery has not conclusively verified the cryosphere is warming. On the contrary, the slow accumulation of ice around the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station appears indicative, at least for Antarctica, about what is generally occurring. The global satellite record since 1979 shows a constant area of ice until the mid 90's where a slow decline starts until a sharp drop in 2006 and 2007, but then a sharp correction above the average area in late 2007 and 2008. Further examination shows most of this variation is in the Arctic for global ice area and the Antarctic ice area has been trending up slowly since the satellite record starts.[12] This has been confirmed in recent observations of the Earth's rotation speeding up which can only be explained by a growing concentration of mass at the poles.[13]<br>Primarily, what the satellite record shows is Antarctica, given its size and being surrounded by oceans is relatively stable while the Arctic ice area varies wildly. Prior to 1910, anecdotal evidence from ships logs showed the minimum ice pack in the Arctic in 2007 was a more common occurrence. [14]<br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 10:20 AM

From my angle, it doesn't matter that there weren't always ice caps or that the tropics extended to what's now Antartica . . . or whatever. What does matter is that we're on the verge of making ourselves extinct. I guess if I could contemplate with perfect equanimity the prospect of "thinning the human herd," then the idea of extinction might not be so hard to accept for me. But I can contemplate neither one with anything but fear and loathing.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 10:50 AM

The "thinning the herd" type of solution is troubling if you look at how it might be accomplished. No person on earth would be having a life worth living if a catastrophe which actually knocked down the earth's population occurred. AIDS, ebola, bird flu are not going to do it. Doesn't even make a dent. Malaria kills 3 million a year and that has absolutely no effect on earth's population. (and since it happens in poor countries which we don't care too much about the 3 million dead are not noticed at all.)<br><br>6,666,666,666 people as of last month. Line up a super killer with say 500 million dead<br>0,500,000,000 and even that does not make a dent. <br><br>To make a dent one would have to kill off several billion. You don't want to be a survivor if a kill off like that occurred.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: John_Lasruk

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 11:24 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>How do you suppose old wooden sailing ships sailed through the Northwest Passage when up until a few years ago it was not passible without specially built ice breakers?<p><hr></blockquote><p> That would come as news to Henry Hudson. Fact is, the waters of the Northwest passage have always been passable during the warmer months. During the winter months, the old wooden ships (such as Henry's) were forced to lay over as he and his crew did in James Bay one year. But it has only been in recent years that open water has been seen at the North Pole in Summer, thus causing trouble with the polar bear population. Arctic ice is melting for the same reason that Antarctic ice is melting. Warmer weather.<br><br>The fact that a short blip in pack ice occurs in the last couple of years is meaningless when longer term trends point in other directions. And, as a matter of fact, the Wikipedia entry you pointed to largely agrees. Here is a graphic showing the greatest extent of ice in the Arctic in 1985 and 2005.<br><br><br><br>Laz, OFI[/i][color:green]<br>Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho </font color=green>
Posted by: John_Lasruk

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 11:26 AM

At our age we are not liable to be survivours.<br><br>Laz, OFI[/i][color:green]<br>Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. Groucho </font color=green>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 01:34 PM

Why, again is overpopulation the problem? The US, for example has 300 <br>million people, but it's ecological impact far exceeds this. Reducing the number of <br>people would certainly help matters, but not the the extent that curbing <br>consumption and waste and emissions would. Birth rates all over the <br>developed world have plummeted in the past 50 years and most every <br>where consumption and emissions etc. have risen.<br><br>We are STILL what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 02:06 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You're going to try and say there has always been ice caps? There has never been melting? or freezing?<p><hr></blockquote><p>There was a rather long period of earth's history when the entire surface was covered with ice miles deep.<br><br>Actually I believe we're in a period between ice ages, and so far the span of stable climate is actually a bit unusual in terms of the Earth's history.<br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!
Posted by: polymerase

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 02:58 PM

What really kills me is all the opinions everyone has about global warming as if they have figured it all out by observing their local weather and doing some google searches.<br><br>Real climatologists believe global warming is occurring and it is caused by man. You can read the journals Science and Nature. Chock full of scientists discussing the ramifications of an already proven fact.<br><br>When you want to know if global warming exists you can do one of two things.<br>1) Ask reputable scientists who have studied earth climate.<br>2) Ask Cindy McCain while she is on a Vicodin buzz.<br><br>You might get the answer you want to hear from one of them but the answer is correct from only one.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 04:02 PM

You got it. Our climate stability IS a blip. <br><br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 04:16 PM

But did you read this part?<br><br> Antarctic ice area has been trending up slowly since the satellite record starts.[12] This has been confirmed in recent observations of the Earth's rotation speeding up which can only be explained by a growing concentration of mass at the poles.<br><br>What we have here is a case of earth wobbles. <br><br>
Posted by: iBookmaster

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 05:53 PM

Because if you reduce the amount of people by half then you would have approximately half the amount of cars riding, half the amount of homes using electricity, half the amount of trash, half the amount of people spraying toxic spray cans and half the amount of everything else bad for the planet. It's just plain common sense. <br><br>Too many lives they've spent across the ocean. Too much money been spent upon the moon. Well, until they make it right, I hope they never sleep at night. They better make some changes and do it soon. -Things Goin' On/Lynyrd Skynyrd
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 06:28 PM

Only if the half come predominantly from the developed world.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 06:45 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Only if the half come predominantly from the developed world.<p><hr></blockquote><p>No kidding. Not to rag on the poor old US of A<br>but if you killed off half of them or only 150 million instead of half the Chinese, or 600 million, you would get rid of 40% of the total world burden, [color:blue]half the amount of homes using electricity, half the amount of trash, half the amount of people spraying toxic spray cans and half the amount of everything else bad for the planet. It's just plain common sense. </font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: iBookmaster

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 06:47 PM

Global population reduction would be a tough thing to do though. I don't know the best method to do that. One kid per family until it lowers to the goal maybe?<br><br>Too many lives they've spent across the ocean. Too much money been spent upon the moon. Well, until they make it right, I hope they never sleep at night. They better make some changes and do it soon. -Things Goin' On/Lynyrd Skynyrd<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by iBookmaster on 06/26/08 09:47 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 11:03 PM

Erm... shouldn't you be mentioning Cindy McCain here at this point? (whoever the hell she is...)<br><br>[color:purple]A lopsided man runs best along the little side-hills of success<br>- Frank Moore Colby</font color=purple>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/26/08 11:16 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Why, again is overpopulation the problem? The US, for example has 300 <br>million people, but it's ecological impact far exceeds this. Reducing the number of <br>people would certainly help matters, but not the the extent that curbing <br>consumption and waste and emissions would. Birth rates all over the <br>developed world have plummeted in the past 50 years and most every <br>where consumption and emissions etc. have risen.<p><hr></blockquote><p>This is a very good point, and it is confirmed by fact that conservation on a large scale makes significant<br> differences. Case in point: Mono Lake in California, near the Nevada border, and just a little south of the <br>eastern entrance to Yosemite. It's a striking place. When I was there, I felt a sense of foreboding, though<br> actually I should have felt joy, for it has been coming back to life and slowly filling up to closer to its <br>natural levels, but in 1990 it was nearly dead and had practically vanished -- victim of criminal water <br>dealings in Los Angeles. You can learn all about that at the Mono Lake Website. (read this speech on <br>Mono Lake and California Water Policy for a good synopsis of the issues.)<br><br>In the early 1990's, a couple of people decided to save Mono Lake. They were ordinary people, but they <br>devoted themselves in extraordinary ways to show the City of Los Angeles how it could change and <br>make a difference that would benefit everyone. Things like low-flush toilets, drip-sprinklers, and just<br> good common-sense conservation made enough difference that not only is Mono Lake returning to its <br>former glory, but Los Angeles is now using the same amount of water as it was using when it was 70%<br> its current population, and is prepared for future growth on even that same amount of water. They are <br>actually restoring other lakes to their former wild state in the process. (California Supreme Court sided <br>with the Mono Lake people, which made things a lot easier for them.)<br><br>So, conservation DOES make a difference. A HUGE difference. <br><br>Shooshie<br><br>PS: incidentally, Jack Nicholson starred in a movie peripherally set in the background of the criminal<br>water department dealings. It was Chinatown. In real-life, a group of developers wanted to buy up <br>desert and sell it at residential premium prices, making vast fortunes in the process. But they needed<br> water, and they colluded to have LA pay for aqueducts to the San Fernando Valley. They did so by <br>dumping LA's reservoirs into the ocean at night, creating water shortages in the daytime. They told the <br>people there was a water shortage, and that they would need aqueducts from hundreds of miles away <br>to bring them water. The bond passed, but they only built the aqueducts to the San Fernando Valley, <br>not to LA. Jack Nicholson's character had to solve this crime for the key to the mystery he was dealing <br>with in the fictionalized version of the facts used in the movie.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Shooshie on 06/27/08 02:45 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/27/08 05:19 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Erm... shouldn't you be mentioning Cindy McCain here at this point? (whoever the hell she is...)<p><hr></blockquote><p> Thought you would never ask. <br>Cindy McCain is the wife of our Republican presidential nominee.<br>She had a long term drug addicition to opiates so large she had to steal the Percosets and Vicodin from the charity she was working for.<br>When she was caught red handed and an article was to be published she confesses on the Today Show and receives plaudits for her honesty.<br>She received no jail time. She had to repay the charity for the drugs stolen. No damages, just wholesale price. Since she is very rich she wrote a check.<br><br>No one wants Cindy to go to jail. Just pointing out the inequities pointed out by this. If you are a rich white women and a drug addict who steals because of the addiction you get back slaps for being so honest when you tell your story.<br><br>If you are black you go to jail. This is why there were cheers in the black community when OJ was found innocent. OJ was black and he actually gamed the system as if he were white. That was a bit of a shock.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/27/08 10:45 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Only if the half come predominantly from the developed world.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Population has a negative effect anywhere. A good portion of the undeveloped world relies on the developed world for food because they live in areas that cannot physically support their population levels. That means more fuel to grow and transport crops.<br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!
Posted by: newkojak

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/27/08 11:20 AM

The physical carrying capacity of the Earth in terms of food is actually a pretty hot political topic. Much of the undeveloped world<br>could grow plenty of food and support their populations with it, but they cannot find a market for it competing against heavily<br>state-subsidized product from the United States, Canada, and the European Union. Colonization doesn't cause famine in Africa<br>anymore. That's our world's food market's job now.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/27/08 11:22 AM

That's one reason they call it neo-colonialism.<br><br>[color:red]&#63743;</font color=red> [color:orange]&#63743;</font color=orange> [color:yellow]&#63743;</font color=yellow> [color:green]&#63743;</font color=green> [color:blue]&#63743;</font color=blue> [color:purple]&#63743;</font color=purple>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: For those who actually care... - 06/30/08 02:23 AM

Pardon the bad links. If anyone tried to follow the links I gave, they would have seen that I used the wrong QuicKeys command to create them. Here are the correct ones:<br><br> Mono Lake Website. <br><br>(read this speech on Mono Lake and California Water Policy for a good synopsis of the issues.)<br><br>The latter probably explains everything the fastest. Anyway, the point being that conservation can have a tremendous effect when carried out on such a massive scale. While developing new energy sources may save us in the near future, conservation of what we have can save us right now. Did anyone notice how their electric bill dropped after installing those new bulbs? Turning off the lights, putting the computer to sleep, coasting to stop signs, keeping the car tuned up, and a thousand other LITTLE ideas, when carried out by a quarter billion people, can have dramatic effects on our carbon footprint. <br><br>Now that we have most people's attention, and the specter of global warming is no longer seen in the mainstream as a political conspiracy to take away the right-wing's Lincoln Navigators and Hummers, we could actually act very quickly by dispersing information like this to everyone we know with the instructions to pass it on. The Enron Loophole may have artificially raised the price of gas by about $2.50, but it may also have done the world a favor. Too soon to tell, though. <br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>