Kick out the boys

Posted by: yoyo52

Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 02:12 PM

Disobedience is the excuse. I suspect it's more that some folks don't want competition.<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by yoyo52 on 09/08/07 06:40 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 02:28 PM

I wanna cry thinking of those poor children, male and female.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 04:41 PM

We live in a Christian nation so brainwashing your kids from day one about god and heaven and hell is looked upon as a virtue.<br><br>Most people go along with that.<br><br>But then we have priests who are buggering alter boys and dang that gets in the news but the whole system is fine and we go long with that.<br><br>And then we have fundamentalist Mormons marrying brainwashed 13 year old girls for their 4th wife and we get all huffy? We start getting pis[/i]sed when these girls are being raped at 14? That the boys in these groups are being tossed out? <br><br>Read the story again. Try and think what home schooled education these boys really had when they were tossed out. They were brainwashed.<br><br>Do not indict fundamentalist Mormons for this. Because who is allowing this? Why is Jeffs going to trial this week when he and his father have been doing this for years?<br><br>It is because we allow it. Religion allows it. Christian religion allows it. Because if we flushed all this shi[i]t down the toilet the way we should every religion which brainwashes kids from one year old on would be on trial.<br><br>I read this and every time I hear "God fearing Christian" I want to puke. And to anyone who is annoyed at an atheist's rants, I can only say, sorry, I wish I had a brainwashing pill but they don't exist.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 05:48 PM

[Insert snorting, stamping, furious IPU picture here.]<br><br>No kidding, Poly.<br><br>I'm totally with you on this issue.<br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 07:26 PM

It's only brainwashing when it's twisted into something other than what it was meant to be. To lump all aberrant religious behavior together with all religion is simply simplistic.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 08:27 PM

Then why are we not jailing every polygamist this week? Why are we allowing them to rape girls 13 years old tonight and every night?<br><br>Because it is religion. Because we are hands off religion. Every politician in Utah and Arizona cannot touch them because their citizenry is brainwashed. Yes that is about as simplistic as it gets but why is not every man woman and child Christian not up in arms about that story?<br><br>Every single religion brainwashes their progeny by lying to them. Believe this not because it is true but because you need faith. Lying to kids is sick and it there is a continuous line connected to that lying in every religion all the way to the house of the polygamist with brainwashed kids being raped. Those kids are being treated like that because of their faith. The criminals can get away with it because of their faith.<br><br>I indict all religions that lie to kids. This story points out the extreme. Suicide bombers point out the same extreme. But every religion uses the same tactic. Brainwash the kids before they have a chance.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: carp

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 09:50 PM

I agree<br><br>Its all religions - At least this boy was not taught to suicide bomb to murder others in the name of Allah or another deity <br><br>The points is that "religion" should be administered by competent people and not by tyrants that who would lead congregations astray of what was intended by their book of teachings.<br><br> IMO<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 10:03 PM

I suspect that poly would say that "believer" and "competent" are irreconcilable concepts.<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: Trog

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/08/07 11:10 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Then why are we not jailing every polygamist this week? Why are we allowing them to rape girls 13 years old tonight and every night?<p><hr></blockquote><p><embed src="http://weinertlab.kicks-ass.org/~hunter/temp/cross_catholic.mov" autoplay="false"></embed><br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 05:14 AM

Obviously, you've also been brainwashed. <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:21 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>At least this boy was not taught to suicide bomb to murder others in the name of Allah or another deity <p><hr></blockquote><p> You gotta be kidding me. You don't want me to start giving examples of killing for Christ do you? And you don't have to go back many years. A hundred miles from where those boys are is a place where the head of the Mormon church sent his soldiers of Christ out to massacre. <br><br>Please don't apologize for outrageous behavior like raping children by using a sentence starting with "at least".<br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:28 AM

Wouldn't want to forget the Catholic church but I just read Under the Banner of Heaven so starting with the Mormon Fundamentalists is just too easy.<br><br>But Krakauer's book is an indictment of all religions because they all brainwash kids. Anyone who reads it then goes right back and tells their kids a bunch of lies should feel uncomfortable. Because what is the difference between their kids and Jeff's kids? <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:41 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Obviously, you've also been brainwashed. <p><hr></blockquote><p>Possibly, but I have one thing on my side. I do not believe something that has to be believed entirely on faith. If those kids had been able to say, "I would prefer not to believe that unless you show me proof. I cannot believe that my thirteen year old sister should marry an eighty year old man just because our religion says so."<br><br>Even the most milk toast religion that has been de-fanged and is a thousand years removed from the Crusades. When that child is tucked into bed does she have the ability to say, "I would prefer not to believe anything with requires only faith" ? That heresy would disappoint the parents surely. Might get them to send their kid to the reverend for some extra lessons.<br><br>The kid has no chance. It is brainwashing. Brainwashing occurs by using lies. Tell me one lie I have told. Show me one scintilla of proof that it is a lie. Now show me one scintilla of proof that you are not brainwashing your kids. Truth requires proof. Not a really hard concept to live by. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: trey

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:44 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You don't want me to start giving examples of killing for Christ do you?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Yes, please do. I don't disbelieve you, I've just been looking for some examples to share with some local Bushies.<br><br>
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 07:01 AM

Children want to believe in their parents - that's why it's so hard for them to think anything different from their parents, until they start to 'individuate' and become adults. And of course, most parents are people who've never really grown up, so it's not surprising that they end up involved with a religions institution that provides some analogue to a parent figure - both in the form of a creator deity, and in the form of an ecclesiastical hierarchy. I spent a number of years living at a Buddhist retreat centre, and I can look back and see just how much I wanted the more senior practitioners to be my parents, so I wouldn't have to grow up and take responsibility for myself - and I was in my 30's then!<br><br>If the parents are brainwashing their children, it's because there's something missing in them and their lives that makes them need to live through their kids. So it'd be more effective in the long run to deprogramme the parents, and help them live with and of themselves, so the kids would not have to choose between their parents and truth/love. I think...<br><br>- padmavyuha<br><br>[color:purple]A lopsided man runs best along the little side-hills of success<br>- Frank Moore Colby</font color=purple>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 07:19 AM

I agree with Poly. I'd love to ban all religions. Unfortunately, that won't/can't happen.<br><br>IMO, any "religion" that condones or turns the other cheek to rape/incest is every bit as bad as a suicide bomber. Folks have questioned why so called moderate Muslims haven't spoken up louder. I can suggest the same question should be put to Christian religions. Where are all the goody goody Christians? Why aren't they demanding an end to the rape of our children? <br><br>I'll tell you why. Poly is correct. All religious people ARE brainwashed. I'm surprised they can't see or understand this. You are what your parents drilled into your head as soon as you left the womb. You are what the society immediately around you dictates.<br><br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 07:47 AM

Chances are that if every child on the planet was raised as an Atheist, some of those children would grow up and find a faith or religion.<br><br>I get that you believe, with absolutely no doubt (I say that with no little sense of irony) that all religions are a scam, especially when perpetuated on children. I don't get why you don't get that for some people, their religion is a source of comfort. They don't rape, brain wash, suicide bomb or force their faith on other people.<br><br>You've always had a "show no quarter" take on religion, which is really, just another form of intolerance.<br><br>Whatever truth there may be has to exist somewhere between empirical thinking and blind faith.<br><br>OH! Does this mean you're back? Or are you just toying with our affections? <br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 07:49 AM

Living in a Christian nation where the mere mention of the possibility that the majority of the parents are brainwashing their children is treated as heresy so examples of killing for Jesus are swept under the rug. She was insane (if God told her to cut the arms off her baby.) The Lafferty brothers were insane (read Krakaur's book). We have a President who openly admits to taking commands from God to attack Iraq. Is he insane? No, none of them are insane. They are brainwashed. Actually, Bush may be only partially brainwashed and the rest is just a politician's vice of taking advantage of the brainwashed condition of the populace.<br><br>Still, you want examples of killing for Jesus there are some real easy googles to do.<br>"God told me to kill" is a good one. Lots of Bush and young mothers killing for the Lord. And don't forget bible reading mass murderers like the Green River killer.<br><br>Killings as directed by the leaders of Christian churches happen but it is the day to day mundane drowning the baby in the tub because God told me that really gets the body count up. Brigham Young in 1857 only killed 120 men, women, and children (most of them with a muzzle to the head after he told them they would get safe transport) in one afternoon but it is hardly the norm for a church leader to get caught like that. (Oh wait, he was not taken to trial because the feds couldn't trust a jury in Utah.) <br><br>Rebuttals to all of this that start with "At least Christians don't kill like muslim terrorists ... example" leave me speechless. Are Muslim fundamentalists worse than Christian fundamentalists? Gee, what a question. Is it better to rape your daughter than kill her or is killing her and then raping her much much worse? That is a dumb argument to get into. But this is the argument your local Bushies want you to partake in but it's not winnable and you certainly aren't going to change a single mind (Brainwashing at its best.) Muslim fundamentalists are getting all the good press these days so their side can just hand you the front page and say, "At least ...!!" <br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:09 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Whatever truth there may be has to exist somewhere between empirical thinking and blind faith.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Why between? Why take anything on faith? What false comfort can be derived from that? <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Chances are that if every child on the planet was raised as an Atheist, some of those children would grow up and find a faith or religion.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Of course they will. The false comfort of a deity is bred into our genes. It is what got us through those years living in caves while lightning lit the sky with bolts of light thrown by God. But as we progress I would only hope that the leaders of the world did not use religion to make war and kill others for God.<br><br>Those atheists that turn to religion can go live in mud huts somewhere where they belong.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You've always had a "show no quarter" take on religion, which is really, just another form of intolerance.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Damn straight I am very intolerant of bullsh[/i]it.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>OH! Does this mean you're back? Or are you just toying with our affections? <p><hr></blockquote><p>Darn it. Am I posting at Macminute? I missed a tab. (Thought I was at crankyatheist.com) Well shoot, this thread is still here and God has been mentioned more than once. Did some as[i]shat moderator get his/her walking papers? This thread is a hundred times more offensive than the last time I got deleted. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:17 AM

General thinking is that we finally caused his head to implode. That or Stan woke up and came to his senses. I'm thinking the latter, purely on faith. <br><br>Anyway, score one more for the good guys.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:26 AM

Hell . . . you're all going to hell, I'm telling ya.<br><br>Oh . . . wait . . . . . .<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: Celandine

Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 08:30 AM

<center><br><br><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/a15KgyXBX24"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a15KgyXBX24" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><br><br></center><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:40 AM

<br>I think Mmod2.0 is still with us, since offensive spam still gets scrubbed<br>but I also think The MysteryMod learned not to over-react before finding<br>out more about who's doing what to whom, and why.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: trey

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:48 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Rebuttals to all of this that start with "At least Christians don't kill like muslim terrorists ... example" leave me speechless. Are Muslim fundamentalists worse than Christian fundamentalists? Gee, what a question. Is it better to rape your daughter than kill her or is killing her and then raping her much much worse? That is a dumb argument to get into. But this is the argument your local Bushies want you to partake in but it's not winnable and you certainly aren't going to change a single mind (Brainwashing at its best.) Muslim fundamentalists are getting all the good press these days so their side can just hand you the front page and say, "At least ...!!"<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about. A good friend of mine is "brainwashed" in that he's all about Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and Bill O'reilly. He's always talking about the Muslims waiting at the borders to attack us and, well, as you said, saying that "well, at least Christians..." Sad, really.<br><br>
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:53 AM

Sooo, I'm about 8 years old, and even then I loved science, and kind of understood what it meant to arrive at empirical truth. I read my older brother's Science textbooks for fun, would borrow and pore over science-y books of all kinds from the school and town libraries. I'd read National Geographic & Scientific American, and watch "The 21st Century with Walter Cronkite" and watch the educational shows on Public Television because they fascinated me.<br><br>My Grandparents—both pretty religious, but very gentle about it all—took my bestest buddy/cousin Troy & me on a trip from PA down through Virginia and North Carolina to visit relatives I'd never met, and some who were so old I might never have a chance to meet them again.<br><br>During the car drive, I felt it was my older-cousinly duty to pass along to Troy all this cool knowledge I had learned about...The speed of light, the weight of a teaspoon of neutron star matter, the reason some people are albinos or retarded, how oil deposits formed and where gasoline came from...all kinds of stuff.<br><br>At one stop in Virginia, we stayed a day and over night with one of my Grand Dad's cousins who was a Halleluja! Baptist preacher in the greatest Southern tradition. Nice guy, but a little TOO loud and charismatic, when compared to my Grand Parents. I was kind of scared of him because of his personality.<br><br>They had a whole pack of kids, and we had fun running around their farm and orchard, climbing trees, playing in tire swings, chasing chickens...usual kid stuff.<br><br>Come evening time, about 9:00 or so, we kids were all settling down to go bed in one of the bunk houses (the kids kind of used it as a playhouse when migrant pickers weren't staying there). One of the kids—maybe 10 years old—sat real close to me and my cousin where we were playing with Matchbox cars on the floor. <br><br>With the other distant cousins looking on, this kid fixes me with an earnest stare, and in all seriousness, and with the same sort of approach as his Daddy might have used, asked me about whether I had accepted Jesus into my heart. I looked at him like—"You're 10 years old, you've got to be kidding me, right?"<br><br>And he kept insisting that I needed to be saved, and that if only I'd repeat some prayer with him I would be saved to join the Kingdom of Jesus, blahbitty-blag-friggin'-blah.<br><br>I thought about it for a minute while he continued his effort to convince me, and told him that I couldn't see the logic in the whole Jesus bit. I asked him to prove to me that God and Jesus existed. If he could, I'd join him.<br><br>Well, this kid apparently never considered—or maybe might not have ever been exposed to—the other side of the faith vs. science coin. He was only about 10, after all, and though he might have been able to imitate his Preacher Daddy's style and rhetoric, he simply didn't have the answers I asked for.<br><br>Deep down in my gut, something told me that if I followed the kid's lead, it was something I could never fully renounce and divorce myself from later, and I just kept shaking my head, telling him "I'm not so sure I want to do this."<br><br>It felt to me like I was being asked to participate in some sort of brainwashing ceremony. I'm not kidding, and I'm not just borrowing the vernacular from Poly. The whole ritual left me feeling creeped out. Needless to say, I didn't get saved that night in the Virginia orchard bunkhouse.<br><br>And my questioning nature about blind faith continues to this day, 40 years later.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 08:53 AM

I'll watch your video and raise you twenty Pat Condell videos. <br><br>Lea: Pat Condell is also intolerant of bullsh[i][/i]it. But please tell me where he should be called intolerant (single word no modifier)?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 09:28 AM

Nothing changes forty years or two years ago when my daughter got the same treatment. She came back home from a sleep-over and asked us what religion we were and I said the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bbhhh). After explaining to her that the IPU is real with just as much certainty as the God she was trying to be saved by during her sleep-over she thought the whole thing was pretty stupid. I replied that is a reasonable position to take but she shouldn't go to the next sleep over and espouse IPU unless she wanted to lose a friend. Trying to un-brainwash ten year old kids is a difficult thing for a trained person to do. She should just consider her friend just a bit whacky but let it slide.<br><br>It is difficult being an atheist in a Christian nation. You can get ostracized easily. You don't have to go to Hildale, Utah to be ostracized. That can happen to you right here in Boston. I can remember ostracizing my unbelieving friends next door when I lived in Indiana. They were not Catholic so obviously needed saving. At seven they had the best answer I had heard when the told me what the H in Jesus H. Christ stood for.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 09:50 AM

Thank you ever so much<br>(and thanx for rescuing this dull dammed topic)<br>I've already listened to 2 of his rants & bookmarked the link!<br><br>To tell you the truth,<br>Even though I've moved beyond creationism about the same time <br>I outgrew Little-Green-Men-ism,<br>I've learned not to mess with other people's belief systems unless<br>my opinion (or right to choose not-to-believe) comes into question<br>simply because I've had too many friends either die, or lose loved ones<br>and have seen first hand how these people depend on Religion for comfort.<br><br>It's just become one of those things that I'll give a short; "Thanx, but No Thanx"<br>answer too, unless pressed on the subject. <br>After All, Look what happened THE LAST TIME I Gave My Opinion On the Subject! <br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 09:53 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Please don't apologize for outrageous behavior like raping children by using a sentence starting with "at least".<p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, at least Apple doesn't charge as much for ringtones as some vendors!<br><br>Wait a minute... think I stumbled into the wrong thread.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 09:54 AM

I misspoke. There are twenty two videos. Makes sure you catch the second page with the extra two, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make ..." That one made me spit coffee on my new laptop.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 10:06 AM

One gorgeous spring day in State College, when I was a senior and perhaps slightly buzzed sitting under a tree near the Wall on Old Main lawn, two Jesus freaks (remember when that's what they were called? ) came to save me. Harangue harangue harangue . . . until finally, "you're going to go to hell," said one. "I hope for your sake that I do," said I.<br><br>That shut them up pretty well.<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 10:13 AM

OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG! OMG!<br><br>(Irony absolutely intended... with the "OMG"s)<br><br>Pat Condell is my new hero. For his ideas, the pace of his writing, and for his unapologetic snarkiness.<br><br>Thanks for the new ally.<br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by SparkCollector on 09/09/07 01:16 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 10:14 AM

Dialog. His dialog is one-sided. I'll give him that he's a whole lot funnier about it than you are. Although, the business about the heels and the roof was pretty good. <br><br>Don't get me wrong, I wish there was such a thing as the Rapture. I would love to see every Fundie Loony on the planet just rise up and fly away for good. Allah ought to just swing open the doors on all those virgins and put out a sign that says "Free Pass – No Martyrdom Required." The world would be immensely improved on both accounts.<br><br>But, really, what's the difference between somebody who wants to shove God down my throat and somebody who wants to shove No God down my throat?<br><br>We must stand up to the wrongs in this world ~ including those brought about in the name of religion ~ but we don't have to insist that everybody does it from the same belief system. Or lack of belief system. I'm hedgin' my bets here. <br><br>I'm surprised nobody brought up the Crusades. Talk about carnage in the name of several Gods. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 10:54 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>But, really, what's the difference between somebody who wants to shove God down my throat and somebody who wants to shove No God down my throat?<br><p><hr></blockquote><p> I big difference. A friggin' big pile of difference. Let me focus on only one really really big difference.<br><br>Proselytizing. The act of shoving God down my throat. Now granted, you can accuse me of proselytizing in this thread about atheism but you have to go pretty far and wide to hear an atheist proselytizing about atheism in the USA. Here I did it because Yoyo52 pointed out egregious acts cause by faith. So I pointed out how stupid faith was.<br><br>But from the President's father who thinks I should not be allowed to vote because I am atheist to the little kid across the street I get proselytized to death by religion.<br><br>It is the one thing I like about the Jews. They do not proselytize. They don't go door to door with their grandmother's in tow. In fact they really don't want you. They only want Jews. It's really hard to "become" a Jew. They make it that way and I gotta give them that one.<br><br>Now if all the other religions would take a page from the Jews and leave me and my family alone in are heathen thoughts you would not hear a peep from me again. I could pray to my Invisible Pink Unicorn (mhhnbs) in peace.<br><br>I'm not trying to shove atheism down anyone's throat. Just trying to keep little girls from being raped, little boys from being thrown out in the street, little altar boys from being buggered, that sort of stuff. Is that a bad thing? To be totally against little kids being lied to?<br><br>Condell's dialog is all one sided but please show me one scintilla of his dialog that is not the right side. I mean that with all sincerity. Where is he lying? Where is he making stuff up? Where is he relying on miracles or some other mumbo jumbo?<br><br>I ask for only one scintilla to balance against the tonnage of mumbo jumbo on the other side.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 11:22 AM

The elimination of religion, organized, unorganized, cave dwelling, whatever ~ won't stop kids from being raped, thrown out and buggered. Human nature is partially made up of horrendous stuff. Some of our species really do eat their young. <br><br>Proselytizing. I rarely run into it, and if I see it coming, I excuse myself. If it won't go away, I smack it in the nose and slam the door. <br><br>I can't anymore show you that Condell's dialog is not on the "right" side than you can show me it is. That's not a judgement I'm making.<br><br>For the sake of all that's maybe or maybe not holy, the point I'm obviously not making is ~ we all need to be a hell of a lot more tolerant of each other's beliefs or lack of. And that includes laughing along very hard, loud and well with Condell's dialog. He is one funny mofo, for sure.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 11:33 AM

Tolerance?<br><br>Have you ever considered that "The People Coming To Your Door"<br>that may or may not be on this forum, may be offended by the<br>crap that unthinking members make so light of because they're<br>fairly certain that there aren't any of that faith present to object?<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 11:44 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The elimination of religion, organized, unorganized, cave dwelling, whatever ~ won't stop kids from being raped, thrown out and buggered. Human nature is partially made up of horrendous stuff. Some of our species really do eat their young. <p><hr></blockquote><p>But why allow religions to have such brainwashing power over kids so they think they and their family is going to hell unless they submit to the religious leader? Why do we allow it? <br><br>Sure there will be buggering left in the world. I am not saying religions are the cause of all evil. Does that excuse the evil they do cause? Is there such a large pile of evil in the world that we have to ignore evil in are midsts? "At least our evil is not as bad as ..."<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Proselytizing. I rarely run into it, and if I see it coming, I excuse myself. If it won't go away, I smack it in the nose and slam the door. <p><hr></blockquote><p> I kick the old grandmother down the steps too. But this thread is about kids. What about the kids? My kids have had their shots so they will be unlikely to fall fro the magic and mumbo jumbo but kids are vulnerable. My son is in the first week of college. will he get the talking to by the born again on the floor as I did? Will I worry that he will not laugh in his face? No. Someone of college age can make up their own mind. <br><br>But those kids be tossed on the side of the road or their sister's being raped back home and thinking it will get them to heaven is sick. All the proselytizing in between is sick too.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I can't anymore show you that Condell's dialog is not on the "right" side than you can show me it is.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Of course I can. He does not say one word that is not backed up by the laws of nature. That is he says nothing as an article of faith. No mumbo jumbo. No miracles.<br><br>He posits that God does not exist. Since there is not one scintilla of evidence to refute that claim he is, for the time being, correct. Until someone, you for instance, show a scintilla of evidence that he is wrong the statement remains correct. If you do not believe it is correct then you should start bowing down to the Invisible Pink Unicorn before she gets ticked. Because in a race for Gods and Goddesses who have no proof of their existence I will take the vengeful IPU over all. Her horn is razor sharp and she is angry.<br><br>[edit] Now she is mad at me for not putting mhhnbs after her name. Where's the pepperoni pizza?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 11:53 AM

Aye Carumba, here I dither on Sunday while I am missing Church of the Fenway with my favorite preacher Josh the Beckett throwing his holy heater. <br><br>If only the Royals could smite those heathens of the rotten apple down. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 11:58 AM

Since when does tolerance mean keeping your yap shut?<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 12:01 PM

<br>obviously, when it's your religion that's being slammed.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 12:09 PM

<br><br>HeyHeyHey! Have you seen Our New Mascot?<br><br>"Scooter D. Squirrel"<br>that hangs out atop the Right Field Foul Pole? <br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 12:17 PM

<OL>"obviously, when it's your religion that's being slammed."</OL>It's nothing to take personally, Cellie.<br><br>The point is that there are aspects of ALL religions that are just plain stupid, unfounded in fact, worthy of ridicule or downright dangerous. On very simple inspection, there is no denying that.<br><br>But, looking a lot deeper....<br><br>The aspects of ALL of them that are being challenged have to do with believing in something which—when broken down into smaller parts, and in any other context—would be regarded as silly superstition, as silly as stepping on a sidewalk crack, breaking a mirror, or walking under a ladder. Cripes, man was never meant to fly, either. Just refer to Daedalus and Icarus for the truth on that. (Yes, I understand that it's an allegorical tale. But for centuries, many believed it at face value, because...let's face it...they weren't smart enough to interpret allegory)<br><br>Where huge, long established religious dogma differs and excels is that the fairy tale is so well crafted, by good writers and directed by people with a large measure of sociological influence, is almost inscrutably self-referential, and is presented so forcefully, that holding on to one's disbelief is made that much more difficult because there are so many others surrounding us that will berate, shun, and/or punish us because we don't bow to the peer pressure.<br><br>Guess what?<br><br>Eff that.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 12:21 PM

The people you are referring to who say, "God told me to do it" and go out and do horrible things are usually schizophrenic "guided by voices" people who can think of no other sources for these voices so they grab onto the most easily available source, the Judeo-Christian mileu they live in. Some are brainwashed, some are just making an excuse, but I think most fall into the first category, and they were going to kill people whether they had the God excuse or not.<br><br>If the need for a deity is in our genes then why deny it? There are a lot of other needs programmed into our genes that neither you nor I deny, so why this one? If it's in our genes, then it must have some function in our survival or it would have disappeared millenia ago, no? Again, why fight it? I could go as far as to argue that some entity deliberately programmed this "need" into our genes, but I couldn't say I believe that one anyway; the elliptical nature of the argument made me write it anyway.<br><br>I hope you are back for at least the time being. We were trading recipes last I knew (okay there's worse things, raping children and blowing up people was mentioned I believe).<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 12:23 PM

I'm done in. For now. Another time, mi amigo, another time.<br><br>Besides, I think I hear hoofs on my rooftop and I'm pretty sure I smell pepperoni. <br><br>Wow! Felt pretty good to wrap ourselves around a topic without getting deleted, huh?<br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 12:31 PM

Religion and pizza. Great combo! <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 12:36 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>The people you are referring to who say, "God told me to do it" and go out and do horrible things are usually schizophrenic "guided by voices" people who can think of no other sources for these voices so they grab onto the most easily available source, the Judeo-Christian mileu they live in<p><hr></blockquote><p> But don't you think if you also have a President who listens to the voice in his head which tells him to attack another country it gives these troubled people less reason to hold back? <br><br>A woman cuts the arms off her baby girl. God told her to do it. You don't think she might have thought twice if just a "crazy voice" in her head told her to do it instead of God? Even when the voice stops she watches her baby bleed out and die. Would she do that without her God telling her that this was the way for her baby to get to heaven?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>If the need for a deity is in our genes then why deny it? <p><hr></blockquote><p> Also encoded in our gense is fear of snakes and fear of falling. Good things to be fearful of if you are living in a tree full of snakes. But now that we do not live in trees we can suppress those fears and take a ride in planes and train snakes.<br><br>As we evolve there are all sorts of genes we do not need anymore. The need for a God is one of them. We know what lightning is. We know where the sun goes at nightfall. We do not need a magician in our troop to tells us that it will be back in the morning (if we do as he says and give him the high part of the hog.)<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 12:36 PM

Pizza goes better with beer or a big pitcher of cold milk.<br><br>Less dyspepsia all round (barring lactose intolerance, that is. Ask Poly about that, as I am unqualified).<br><br><EDIT> And ask Bob W. about the beer intolerance. </Edit><br><br><br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by SparkCollector on 09/09/07 03:39 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 12:46 PM

Your rebuttal rings true with me. Not that I haven't thought it myself but the way you phrased one of your points:<br><br>"But don't you think if you also has a President who listens to the voice in his head which tells him to attack another country it gives these troubled people less reason to hold back?"<br><br>really depresses me. If it weren't for the blind faith of so many people in someone who believes he is/was being spoken to by God, the whole human tragedy in Iraq and beyond would have never happened. Yeah, I know, it's just history repeating itself, but the toys we use as history repeats itself keep getting bigger and bigger...<br><br>BTW, Trog, where did that audio clip come from? The one with the comedian talking about, "normal people go to prison for such crimes, priests get access to fresh meat for such crimes". It was refreshing to hear someone unafraid to attack such hypocrisy so openly.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 01:26 PM

The "need for religion" is actually a "need for order"<br>IOW "a need to make sense of things" EVERYTHING!<br>There's no question:"WHY" that can ever be fully<br>satisfied by a simple; "BECAUSE"<br><br><br>"Those whom heaven helps we call the sons of heaven. They do not learn this by <br>learning. They do not work it by working. They do not reason it by using reason. <br>To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. <br>Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." ~ Chuang Tse.<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 01:36 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. <br>Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." - Chuang Tse.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>I like that. To never stop trying to raise the bar of what can be understood is in the saying just not said. A good motto to live by. It is the antithesis of religion. "Believe my magic and don't worry about what you don't know because I know all and I will keep you safe". It is as padmavyuha pointed out. Someone who needs a parent all their life to explain life easily falls for this. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 01:46 PM

-Baby/dp/B00006YXH0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-...st standup ever. I've listened to it many times.<br><br>It was recorded in 2002 when the Cowboy President was riding high, long before Iraq was even an issue. Yet, Cross calls him out on everything. There's about an hour's worth of that and it is classic. Here's another snippet. Caution: watch out for naughty words.<br><embed src="http://weinertlab.kicks-ass.org/~hunter/temp/cross_terrorism.mov" autoplay="false"></embed><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 02:21 PM

Chuang Tse said it, not me.<br>Personally, I'm busy getting shaved down daily on the lathe<br>since my curse has always been to demand answers, that's<br>one of the reasons to have explored so many religions in a <br>single lifetime, just to come to the conclusion that there<br>ain't even an Invisible Pink Unicorn to turn to for answers.<br>[color:white]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .</font color=white><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Mike

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 04:42 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I read this and every time I hear "God fearing Christian" I want to puke.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Hear, hear!!! <br>Couldn't have stated it better myself!<br><br><br>[color:blue][/b]Hodie mihi. Cras tibi.</font color=blue>[/b]
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 05:15 PM

I guess I don't see religion as being different from any other ideology, doesn't matter what it is, whether philosophical or economic or political or whatever. I take it back--religion is different from other ideologies for the reason that poly has emphasized here: it's licensed, accepted, received, and no one recognizes it to be an ideology. Where I probably part company with poly and Trog and other scientifically inclined folks--positivists, as we humanists like to call you guys--is on the idea that "science" (whatever that means in a very large and comprehensive sense) is somehow immune from ideology.<br><br>Now, I know that I'll not be able to argue convincingly that positivism is as suspect as any other ideology, but I hope that scientific skepticism can extend far enough to reflect on itself.<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 05:20 PM

<OL><B>"…scientific skepticism can extend far enough to reflect on itself."</B></OL>In a nutshell, that science is self-skeptical is the whole point.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 05:31 PM

Yes, except about its own philosophical underpinnings. That's my point.<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 05:56 PM

Coming in late, but just wanted to put in a comment or two.<br><br>It seems that everything you mention (wars in the name of god, child rapes or whatever, etc) are all caused by man.<br><br>Look at Jim Jones. Remember him? Or David Koresh? Or Jim Bakker. Or any of those preachers you would see on TV. Or the priests who abused kids.<br><br>What do they have in common? They were all human. In control of their own self who used religion to cover themselves. Perhaps it's a power thing. You know that saying about how power corrupts?<br><br>Personally, I feel that if you don't believe in anything other than we'll just deteriorate in the dirt and that's it, then fine, but I think that's a sad way to live, because if this is all we have to live for... But to say that (and I forgot if it was you or someone else, so forgive me if it wasn't you) anyone who believes is an idiot and brainwashed, that's sad too. Intolerance is ignorant. <br><br>Why limit yourself? Why shut yourself off from that area? If you really think that wars were caused by religions, then I guess you aren't as smart as I thought you were. It's man using it as an excuse/cover. <br><br>But anyway, it's your freedom to choose whatever you believe. Just don't call me brainwashed or stupid just because I choose to believe.<br><br><br><br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 05:57 PM

This entire thread begs the question: "Where's Murdoch?" <br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 05:58 PM

"but I hope that scientific skepticism can extend far enough to reflect on itself."<br><br>Didn't you know? It's all been figured out, just a few more details to be ironed out and presto, it all fits together!<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 05:58 PM

So, following your "logic," we should never talk to or teach our children anything.<br><br>
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:07 PM

The philosophical underpinnings of the quest for absolute truth in Science is nothing more than the adherence of certain pundits accepting what has been touted and hyped by those who went before them as truth, and who pass it along as absolute truth. And they get away with it because they are sociologically important. And they may be acting on the best knowledge available at the time...but they become too comfortable in their belief that they know what is absolute truth.<br><br>EXCEPT!<br><br>That there are always people working and researching and running tests and extracting proofs that will either confirm or disprove the ideas that are currently accepted as fact. And what is known as "the truth" in scientific pursuit will always be allowed to evolve, and change and grow toward a universal understanding, for everyone, beyond any sociopolitical pressure. Religion has no parallel of independent outside observation and confirmation. It is all self-referential, insular and based on faith in something which can not be proved by objective reasoning, and to the satisfaction of all observers.<br><br>Politics, economics or religion have absolutely NO bearing on scientific truth. Unfortunately, political, economic and religious pressures are brought to bear upon the way scientific truths are accepted and acted upon. Those folks who are indoctrinated into trusting faith over evidence are inclined to believe the interpretations fed to them by the people they have learned to trust.<br><br>Scientific proof is proof for EVERYONE, not just for those who have been conditioned to believe a certain set of ideological precepts.<br><br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:08 PM

You are what your parents drilled into your head as soon as you left the womb. You are what the society immediately around you dictates.<br><br>So, you're saying you raised yourself from birth without any input whatever. That's amazing!<br><br>
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:11 PM

Why take anything on faith?<br><br>Ask yourself that the next time you drive a car in traffic. There's a lot of faith involved there. <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:36 PM

Your comments Koresh comments I don't understand at all except that they show religion as a force that can be manipulated to make people do evil things. Are they human? Since we are talking about human traits, yes. Do you want to talk about dogs or cats?<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Personally, I feel that if you don't believe in anything other than we'll just deteriorate in the dirt and that's it, then fine, but I think that's a sad way to live, because if this is all we have to live for... But to say that (and I forgot if it was you or someone else, so forgive me if it wasn't you) anyone who believes is an idiot and brainwashed, that's sad too. Intolerance is ignorant. <p><hr></blockquote><p>If you remove religion from your life and you think that is all that is left than I can't help you.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Why limit yourself? Why shut yourself off from that area? If you really think that wars were caused by religions, then I guess you aren't as smart as I thought you were. It's man using it as an excuse/cover. <p><hr></blockquote><p> Why limit myself? Are you kidding me? If I don't want to limit myself why don't I become a Muslim Jew who is a born again Christian? Now I got it covered. No limits. <br><br>Instead you pick a God. You are now the person with limits. There are rules to follow. Reverends to listen too and maybe even believe.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:40 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>So, following your "logic," we should never talk to or teach our children anything.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>I have no idea where you got that one. Do I teach my children to be good? To have morals? Do I never ever lie to them? Yes. I believe quite a few half baked Christians lie to their kids all the time.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:41 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Why take anything on faith?<br><br>Ask yourself that the next time you drive a car in traffic. There's a lot of faith involved there. <p><hr></blockquote><p>Just a misrepresentation of what faith we are talking about.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 06:53 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Where I probably part company with poly and Trog and other scientifically inclined folks--positivists, as we humanists like to call you guys--is on the idea that "science" (whatever that means in a very large and comprehensive sense) is somehow immune from ideology.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>Oh I would not disagree at all. I have seen science work and evolve. Ideology abounds. Just take a look at Geology and how many years it took to move the new truth, plate tectonics in to remove the old. It was ideology which held it in place against fifty years of scientific evidence. I can give you much smaller examples, some being played out today around the cures for cancer. People get stuck in old ideas.<br><br>But science is immune to ideology compared to religion. That would be like comparing black to white. Religion is all ideology whereas science is built to eventually refute it through the scientific principles. That is why plate tectonics won the day. Because it was the truth. In science, the truth wins. Then we move on to new questions. Sometimes it is derailed by chicanery and fraud but it is inevitable that the truth percolates to the surface. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 07:05 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Yes, except about its own philosophical underpinnings. That's my point.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Why would you think scientists do not discuss our own scientific underpinnings? Do you think our cocktail parties are so boring we only talk of single nucleotide polymorphisms? Maybe we think the English Department chatting about Shakespeare and Nietzsche are boring and never talk about the underpinnings of why they exist? <br><br>We proved Nietzsche was just another monkey and you're pis[i][/i]sed, right?<br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 07:30 PM

<OL><B>"But science is immune to ideology compared to religion."</B></OL>We really <B><I>are</B></I> pretty <a href="http://urlx.org/macminute.com/ed708" style="color: teal; text-decoration: underline;">like-minded</a>, eh?<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 07:43 PM

A long thread and I missed your post initially. Yes! I think Yoyo has to read it too. <br><br>SparkCollector:<br>[color:blue]The philosophical underpinnings of the quest for absolute truth in Science is nothing more than the adherence of certain pundits accepting what has been touted and hyped by those who went before them as truth, and who pass it along as absolute truth. And they get away with it because they are sociologically important. And they may be acting on the best knowledge available at the time...but they become too comfortable in their belief that they know what is absolute truth.<br><br>EXCEPT!<br><br>That there are always people working and researching and running tests and extracting proofs that will either confirm or disprove the ideas that are currently accepted as fact. And what is known as "the truth" in scientific pursuit will always be allowed to evolve, and change and grow toward a universal understanding, for everyone, beyond any sociopolitical pressure. Religion has no parallel of independent outside observation and confirmation. It is all self-referential, insular and based on faith in something which can not be proved by objective reasoning, and to the satisfaction of all observers.<br><br>Politics, economics or religion have absolutely NO bearing on scientific truth. Unfortunately, political, economic and religious pressures are brought to bear upon the way scientific truths are accepted and acted upon. Those folks who are indoctrinated into trusting faith over evidence are inclined to believe the interpretations fed to them by the people they have learned to trust.<br><br>Scientific proof is proof for EVERYONE, not just for those who have been conditioned to believe a certain set of ideological precepts.<br></font color=blue><br>I completely agree although I would not be able to say it so clearly. But the crux of the scientific position evolving into truth is right there. Along with why religion continues to evolve into magic and fantasy.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:07 PM

I make no assumptions about your cocktail chatter, but I do suspect that unless you're really bonzo gonzo with the vodka martinis, as a scientist you don't often question the premise that the universe is a rational phenomenon. Maybe you do . . . I dunna know . . . but it's not something that scientists I've known and loved do on a regular basis. Love 'em anyway, of course.<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:17 PM

The minutæ of cocktail chatter about the origins of everything isn't relevant.<br><br>What's relevant to this discussion is that the dialogue takes place at all.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:28 PM

I didn't think we were talking about the premise of the universe as a rational or irrational phenomenon. Who here is talking about that? Only some nutty Philosophy Professors would drone on about that. <br>We were talking about raping kids and then it switched to religion. Whether the universe was made by some old dude in the sky or by what any rational scientist would describe is possibly where we were headed but why complicate things?<br><br>Lets get back to brainwashing of kids and why religion loves doing it and science abhors it. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:31 PM

He is right about one thing. I was out of gin and had a vodka martini. But you answered more quickly and fewer words. I blame the martini and making sure the dogs were in.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:36 PM

Hah . . . got that right, then!<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:37 PM

Agree completely . . . which is why the immoderate moderator's mutilation of MM was so bad.<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 08:55 PM

RIP the immoderate moderator's mutilation of MM. This thread still stands! Could it be that dialogue that might express opinions that people do not like so they expresses counter arguments to those opinions and post them in a thread can live and breath in MacMinute? Will wonders never cease?<br><br>Or iMMMod2 took the weekend off.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 09:00 PM

The reason this thread stands—hopefully—is because we are discussing the subject with a fair amount of calm intelligence.<br><br>I can deal with controversial subjects, as long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks.<br><br>When that happens, I bail.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 09:09 PM

Agreed completely on the personal attacks. But I don't know, Sparky . . . much more glittering agreement like this and I might have to go over to poly's and get me a vodka martini or two <br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 09:16 PM

I'm closer.<br><br>And I have Jacquins and Tropicana Grape (from CONCENTRATE!)<br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 09:26 PM

It's all cordiality and please and thank you in the political forum too. Not a personal attack to be seen. What the hell happened? <br><br>Oh right, I almost forgot. Everyone on God's green earth finally figured out that George W Bush is a total imbecile and has an ironclad grip on "worst President ever". There are just so many times you can say that over again.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/09/07 09:40 PM

But, getting back to the O.P.…<br><br>When I first heard the story about Warren Jeffs, and saw his picture, I couldn't help but thinking that he was just another put-upon dickweed nerd that had no social skills, and decided that coattailling on Daddy Rulon's "methods-for-getting-young-chicks (or-little-boys-who-could-be-used-as-a-substitute)" were the only way he was ever gonna dip his weenie.<br><br>I like being a calm guy, but I wanted to spend 3 or 4 weeks punching him in his soft parts. He falls, gets back up, and I punch him again. et cetera.<br><br>
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/09/07 11:38 PM

A friend of mine was attending an 'inter-faith' conference some years ago where his zen teacher was on the panel. At one point, a lady stood up in the audience, pointed to him, and said: 'Well, I buhleeve in the lord jeeziz christ, and I'm goin' to heaven when I die - where are you going?' - the zen teacher didn't bat an eyelid, he just replied: 'I'm going to hell - surely that's where all compassionate people should want to go'.<br><br>- padmavyuha<br><br>[color:purple]A lopsided man runs best along the little side-hills of success<br>- Frank Moore Colby</font color=purple>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 02:25 AM

"Oh right, I almost forgot. Everyone on God's green earth finally figured out that George W Bush is a total imbecile and has an ironclad grip on "worst President ever". There are just so many times you can say that over again."<br><br>Ah, saying it one more time can't hurt.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 04:27 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>saying it one more time can't hurt.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>As the Beatles say, [color:blue]All together now . . . all together now.</font color=blue><br><br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 04:49 AM

Good grief, did I come back to this forum only to sing Kumbaya?<br><br>Kumbaya Bush sucks,<br>Kumbaya.<br>Kumbaya Bush sucks,<br>Kumbaya.<br>Kumbaya Rove's gone,<br>Kumbaya.<br>Kumbaya Rove's gone,<br>Kumbaya<br>...<br><br>altogether now, without socks.<br><br>Kumbaya ...<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/10/07 06:22 AM

I doano...<br><br>It took a while to stop ducking the fully expected lightening bolt<br>when ever I began to first actually enunciate "There IS No God."<br>Over time the cringe became a twinge, then even that was gone.<br><br>You don't know just how conditioned you are until you break free.<br><br>Looking back I came to recognize how we'd been hoodwinked into<br>a LIFETIME of chasing some non-existent carrot on a stick, and<br>how we'd been conditioned to never expect happiness in life, but<br>it was OK, because IF you did what you were told here, you'd get<br>your reward, even though there was ABSOLUTELY No Proof that<br>we ever would, in fact COULD reap any Promised Final Reward.<br><br>Those that are still LABORING under the Imperial Conditioning<br>may feel that that kind of thinking is too horrible to risk, while<br>those who have broken free of the cage (like [color:blue]Plato's Cave</font color=blue>) are<br>finally free to experience how liberating it feels to not rollover<br>on command, or drool whenever someone rings A Church Bell. <br><br>That doesn't mean that a person that no longer depends upon an<br>Invisible Guy in the Sky watching his every move to do the right<br>thing, we still live in a society that dictates that we conform in<br>order to co exist... We still shalt to kill, or steal, or bear false<br>witness... but we tend to depend more on an Honor System Basis<br>...and if we can't manage that, we're still thankfully accountable<br>to the prevailing system of secular justice. <br><br>Personally, I still think Jesus was a really cool dude, with a lot<br>of great ideas... "The Golden 'Do-Unto-Others' Rule" and "The<br>Loving Thy Neighbor As You Love Yourself" ones being top-most.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/10/07 06:40 AM

To put it more succinctly:<br><CENTER><br>Religion was not only a way of explaining what was unknown at the time,<br>but also dandy for keeping people in line, in an unenforceable situation.<br><br><br><br><br>It was also a means to Identify...<br><br>...and Unify the Masses.<br><br><br>Maintaining Control using the Threat of Excommunication...<br><br>....Or WORSE!<br><br><br>It was an effective tool to get peasants to work for you,<br>...by using a Promise of reward in an 'AfterLife',<br><br>....or alternately, the Threat of ETERNAL Damnation.<br><br><br></CENTER><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: trey

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 07:10 AM

I was a Supreme Being for a couple of years in college, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 07:39 AM

<br>Getting a Kick out of? Is that anything like <br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 09:29 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I agree with Poly. I'd love to ban all religions. Unfortunately, that won't/can't happen.<p><hr></blockquote><p>but what we can do is to stop giving tax breaks for religious organizations.<br><br>i kept skipping this topic, but as it grew my curiosity got the best of me.<br><br>i am raising my kids to be atheists, which is hard to do as the area where i live is more religious than the bible belt. my son is in kindergarten so i've got to be careful as i don't want him to get into trouble. not too long ago another kid said something about God and my son told him there was no God. the kid told my son there was and so my son laughed at the kid . . . who told the teacher. i've talked to him about not talking about God out in public, but he's 5 so what do i expect. the other 5 year old certainly felt comfortable mentioning God, so my son is no different in this respect. <br><br>i do worry about how they'll be perceived by the many religious folk they'll encounter. i just keep reminding them that we are not charged with proving there is no God any more than we're charged with proving that there are no unicorns. i explain that some people choose to believe in a God and they use this belief as a crutch to help them get through life, but that i expect my children to not learn to live relying on the perceived acceptance of an external myth. i tell them not to talk religion with others as some folks feel very strongly about their faith. my kids are not supposed to tell anyone that they are atheist because i don't think they fully understand what it means any more than their peers have no real understanding of most of the intricacies of their parent's chosen religion that they're brainwashing their kids with.<br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 09:46 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>i tell them not to talk religion with others as some folks feel very strongly about their faith.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>oh, so they aren't allowed to form their own opinions? <br><br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> my kids are not supposed to tell anyone that they are atheist because i don't think they fully understand what it means any more than their peers have no real understanding of most of the intricacies of their parent's chosen religion that they're brainwashing their kids with.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br>And telling your kids what to think isn't another form of brainwashing? <br><br><br>I mean no disrespect fsm, but wanted to point that out. <br><br>I'm definately in the minority here regarding God and religion it seems. But hey, believe (or not!) what you all want to believe (or not!), just don't go assuming that we are brainwashed or ignorant. This is something I choose to do whether you (or anyone else here) accept that or not.<br><br>If I'm wrong, so what? We all end up dead anyway, it's what possibly might happen afterwards that does make a difference.<br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 10:23 AM

You're exactly on point about brainwashing, John.<br><br>Every parent will instill their belief system into their children. I see 0 difference between the atheist and the Christian in this respect. Doesn't matter what it's called ~ indoctrination, brainwashing, education, child rearing ~ parents teach their children to believe what the parents believe.<br><br>There is absolutely no difference between the atheist, agnostic, humanist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist or Catholic parents of the world in this regard. None. Nada. Zilch.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 10:26 AM

My point regarding Koresh and the others is that it's an act by man. Same with those old crusades, etc. Men made those decisions, not God. Men interpretated things to their will, not God's. <br><br>Now, obviously I can't argue a fact as well as you, so that's why I may not post any more replies here. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>If you remove religion from your life and you think that is all that is left than I can't help you.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Not sure I understand your sentence as you wrote it. But then again, I wouldn't expect you to help me because I didn't ask for it. <br><br> <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Why limit myself? Are you kidding me? If I don't want to limit myself why don't I become a Muslim Jew who is a born again Christian? Now I got it covered. No limits. [quote]<br><br>Sure, go for it. <br><br>[quote]Instead you pick a God. You are now the person with limits. There are rules to follow. Reverends to listen too and maybe even believe.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Limits? Sure, there are limits just like the laws created in each country. But I don't consider them limits personally. <br><br>Exactly how do you consider me limited by choosing God?<br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 10:33 AM

Thanks. <br><br>You are exactly right in your post too and that's actually pretty funny. Yeah, my beliefs were instilled by my parents, but they were thinking that they were doing the right thing. I agree with them, that was MY choice later in life. Growing up I didn't want to go to church.<br><br>Personally I think that those who adamantly refuse to talk about God in any way but a negative light are limiting themselves.<br><br><br><br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 10:50 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> . . . those who adamantly refuse to talk about God in any way but a negative light are limiting themselves.<p><hr></blockquote><p>And consider their views "enlightened." <br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 10:54 AM

Sorry I took so long responding. Was picking up my hand from the ground. Dragging my knuckles on the ground sure can make typing slow! <br><br>I'm not a very good at arguing a side, so that's why I usually get in one, get my ass handed to me because I don't know all the facts or can't presnt them properly, then I stop responding. And so I tend to avoid them.<br><br>But it just blows my mind the lack of tolerance from the "other" side. I'm a conservative republican* [gasp] who probably has a more open mind about these things than they do!<br><br><br><br><br><br>*who might just vote independent this time around!<br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 10:58 AM

I'm atheist but I allowed my daughter to explore. In fact, we encouraged her to check out several religions through her friends. We had a bible in the house in the event she wished to read it.<br><br>She chose not to believe of her own free will but she has a understanding of what others believe. IMO, enforcing a non-belief is every bit the same as those who'd teach religion.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:05 AM

My folks did what was expected for parents to do in the 1950's<br>I was made to join a church, and receive religious instruction<br>to give me a basic handle on what was what. We learned our <br>Catechism, & were Baptized like most other kids, but then they <br>backed-off and allowed us to figure the rest out for ourselves. <br><br>Most recently I came to terms with life as we know it, being<br>merely a long sequence of biological happenstances (No Grand<br>Designer, nor All-Knowing Omnipotent Watchmaker, Not even<br>a GBBoYP (GreatBigBowlofYummyPasta) with/out meat balls.)<br><br>Like every coin, it has 2 sides: On one side, there was no Santa <br>Claus. On the OTHER, there's no Monster in the Closet either.<br>So you don't live your life waiting for it to end, instead you learn <br>to take responsibility for your own actions and for the simple<br>pleasures, happiness, and rewards while still alive and kicking.<br><br>And they all lived happily ever after --- THE END.<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:12 AM

Well, thank you from the bottom of my argument weary heart. That's the point I've been trying to make. John got in this a little late, but I believe he's saying the same thing. <br><br>And, like John, I usually stay out of these discussions (and they've always appeared over in the Box, funny, huh?) because poly and the guys are heavy hitters. I greatly admire their intelligence, I adore them as people and I figure I'm in way over my head when I try to reason with the over-educated lugs. <br><br>That you encouraged your daughter to explore, rather than insist she adopt your belief system when she was very young, is wonderful and really, remarkable. I imagine the percentage of parents willing to "chance" their child's enlightement / redemption is pretty small. <br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:18 AM

I tell them I have worked 40 years to make the women's suffrage platform broad enough for Atheists and Agnostics to stand upon, and now if need be I will fight the next 40 to keep it Catholic enough to permit the straightest Orthodox religionist to speak or pray and count her beads upon.<br>Susan B. Anthony<br><br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:20 AM

So what is the harm in believing in God? If, when you die and you had believed in God, and it is actually THE END as you put it, then so what? Would your life had changed all that much, especially if you "learn to take responsibility for your own actions and for the simple<br>pleasures, happiness, and rewards while still alive and kicking"?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:22 AM

Marge, I commend you for your openness with your daughter. <br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:23 AM

<br>LOL looks like were typing pretty much the same thing<br>at the same moment, You from the parent's perspective, <br>mine, from the point of view of the child.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the PLOYS - 09/10/07 11:24 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>To put it more succinctly:<br><br>Religion was not only a way of explaining what was unknown at the time,<br>but also dandy for keeping people in line, in an unenforceable situation.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>That's your definition of it. Doesn't mean that it's correct.<br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:32 AM

my kids can form their own opinions -- if they want to believe in a God then i'll ask them to defend their position. if they ask me to defend my position that there is no God i'll kindly explain to them that i don't argue for a negative like this any more than i argue that there are no unicorns -- technically, i am not espousing a belief to defend. i don't have a belief and they don't either -- you and Lea seem to believe atheism is a belief when it's not -- at least in my case. i don't recall ever believing in a God even when i had to go a religious school as a child. in fact, when my kids and i talk about this stuff (and it's not often) i tell them that some people believe in a God and they are doing so based on faith and not evidence. and i've taken my kids to church and i talk to them about stories in the bible as though they are stories. i want them to understand religion because their lives will be surrounded by it. we'll read the bible as they get older. i took a bible class just last year from a man who is fluent in greek and hebrew. we had many varied copies of the bible and he had some written in the original language. he'd explain how interpretations occurred and how they could mean many different things . . . and then folks in the class would be able to show how their various copies of the bible had different things written based on the various interpretations, etc. this was a terrific learning experience and was more meaningful bible learning than anything i did back in religious schools.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And telling your kids what to think isn't another form of brainwashing?<p><hr></blockquote><p>i don't tell them what to think about religion. i merely explain that religion is faith-based and that i don't choose to have that faith with no evidence. if they choose to believe me then i explain that they shouldn't talk about it out in public. we have these talks very infrequently, mind you. it's not like i take them to a church every Sunday to hear a sunday school teacher explain about a deity or his or her son. typically this stuff occurs only when they ask a question. i always ask them what they think and ask them to explain why they think that way. i try to keep everything on their level so that they understand and things aren't going over their heads too much. as they get older, we can have deeper conversations but right now they shouldn't have to worry too much about abstract concepts that fill our world with grief. <br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:32 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>John got in this a little late, but I believe he's saying the same thing.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Yeah, I think we are saying the same things on some things.<br><br>I got into this discussion because it was leaning so far over to the side of "you all are ignorant brainwashed savages if you believe in God or religion". <br><br>Talk about intolerance! Just because there are priests, reverends, etc who abuse kids, twist the bible to their way, etc, doesn't mean that the whole religion is bad. To those who did those crimes (abuse), they will be judged by God if they aren't alive, and those that bend/twist the word of God to their idea of how things should be, same thing as above.<br><br>That's like saying ALL police officers are bad because of the ones that abuse their powers in whatever form. Is the idea of someone upholding the law a bad thing? No. Get rid of those that do wrong so that the good ones can do their job well.<br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:49 AM

No harm as far as I'm concerned, that's why I allow people<br>to go on believing whatever they're comfortable believing.<br><br>"What Ever Floats Yer' Boat"<br><br>I'm merely talking for myself, my personal travels & travails.<br>My opinion on things evolves over time. I simply grew out of<br>my religious stage of life, like I grew out of watching StarTrek.<br><br>Whatever.<br><br>However, I believe that the topic under discussion is people who<br>use religion to manipulate other people, or even get away with<br>murder, or rape, or kicking young males out of a protected life<br>style, like an aggressive species of bird expels it's own offspring<br>out of it's territory because it views them as a threat/competition.<br><br>People are also getting wary of fundamentalists of every stripe.<br>...maybe they're just getting tired of being lied to on the whole.<br><br>Whatever.<br><br>I've always gone my own way... I doubt if that's likely to change.<br>I've questioned authority all my life, i... change either.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: MacGizmo

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:53 AM

There are only two things I believe are an absolute certainty on this subject:<br><br>1 - There IS a God<br>2 - He tells me that I shouldn't give a sh[i][/i]it what anyone else believes because it's none of my business<br><br>CreativeGuy for daily tips, tricks and commentary on all things graphic design.
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:54 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Personally I think that those who adamantly refuse to talk about God in any way but a negative light are limiting themselves.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p> It's not like I have a choice so I guess I am limiting myself and my children. I believe in reality and do not subscribe to fantasy, mumbo jumbo so if that is what you understand as "limiting" then I really can't explain it. (But you know I am going to try. )<br><br>The reason I don't have a choice is that bottom line, I do not believe in a Supreme Being. Not one iota. It's not like I have this thing against religion but I cannot believe in fairy tales no matter how old they are. I grew up religious. I know the bible. I studied other religions. I read about other religions all the time, the Krakauer book is not the only example. I read ones which believe the hocus-pocus too.<br><br>You make it sound like I could go to the religious deli and order up a religion. Muslim, Christian, Jew, Invisible Pink Unicorner, or Praise to Santa Claus or the Holy Easter Bunny. The selection is limitless. Actually the last two sound more interesting and have more facts to back them up than all the rest.<br><br>To tell FSM that he is not allowing his five year old to choose is ludicrous. FSM does not believe in God. So other five year olds trying to get his five year old into believing a fantasy is wrong. A five year old cannot decide what is true or not. They still believe in Santa Claus.<br><br>Yoyo52 labels me a Positivist and I guess I can take that baggage. <br>1) I believe in things which can be proven. <br>2) I do not believe in things that cannot be proven.<br><br>I find it ludicrous for anyone to do otherwise. If limiting myself to the world that can be understood and keep out stuff that is made up that is one speed limit I will stay under.<br><br>Now since I live in a society that believes in things that cannot be proven and I get banged over the head by it every day I get a bit ornery sometimes and say things like, "so you teach your kids to believe in fantasy and fairy tales, magic and mumbo jumbo?" Even though the magic was written in a book 2,000 years ago and the majority believe it I think that a tad backward, a tad limiting. <br><br>What can be more limitless than the natural evolution of man that surrounds us every day? I study molecular biology so I am constantly getting my nose rubbed into the small end of evolution but I also as a hobby study geology and astronomy and am also constantly marvel at the macro evolution occurring there too. To me, calling upon a Supreme Being to help me out with the hard stuff and fill in the blank spots is the most limiting thing I could think of doing. It would take one huge chunk of wonder out of my daily life at the lab bench and at looking up at the stars or the Arches in Utah. Doing that and relying on a Supreme Being would spoil all the fun. To teach my children to rely on a Supreme Being would be fraudulent to me. I don't care to get in an argument of enlightened or unenlightened, as the other will always be unenlightened as and the converse enlightened. That's picayune babble arguing.<br><br>What I do want to get across though is that I am an atheist in a Christian nation. My family is treading upstream here in America. It would be different in England, France, Germany, lots of places but I live here. So when someone says things about how awful it is that I give my children no choices this irks me no end. It is speaking from the majority opinion. A majority opinion that denigrates atheism, pigeon holes atheists as less moral, less responsible, less a citizen than a Christian. That last part was taken directly from the mouth of George Bush the elder who does not believe we should have the right to vote. That view is shared by many Christians. But on the flip side there are no atheists who wish to make Christians non-citizens. Do you see from hence I am coming from? <br><br>So from this day forward I will no longer sit quietly by denying my atheism in mixed religious company. I am an atheist. I spent a lot of time working to be an atheist. It was not something my parents told me to do but they did force me to wonder and look through the telescope and ask questions and not accept an answer that sounded wrong or made up. If you think that they brainwashed me by forcing me to ask questions and not accept fairy tales for answers than I think we need another definition for brainwashing.<br><br>[edit] And to get back on topic I will not stand by and not comment on how kids being brainwashed to believe their elders are part of a magic religious circle connected back to Jesus and they use that power to prey upon children. I will not accept it in Utah and I will not accept it from someone making my child uncomfortable about the non belief in a Supreme Being.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by polymerase on 09/10/07 03:08 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:56 AM

First, let me say that I hope you aren't offended by my asking questions. I mean no harm, just asking. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>if they want to believe in a God then i'll ask them to defend their position. if they ask me to defend my position that there is no God i'll kindly explain to them that i don't argue for a negative like this any more than i argue that there are no unicorns -- technically, i am not espousing a belief to defend<p><hr></blockquote><p>whew. I would hate to be your child! Seriously though, I understand that atheism is not a belief, but that statement you wrote just comes off strange to me. They have to defend believing in something, but the only way you would accept their answer is if they had evidence??<br><br>Belief in God requires faith. That's what it's all about. There is even a story in the Bible about Thomas and how he doubted. I can't recall which book or verse, but people know it by "doubting Thomas". <br><br>The bible is not to be taken literally. It is a story. One meant to inspire people to do better in the world.<br><br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>i merely explain that religion is faith-based and that i don't choose to have that faith with no evidence.<p><hr></blockquote><p>faith <br>Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.<br>Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. <br>Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.<br>often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.<br>The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.<br>A set of principles or beliefs.<br><br><br>Kind of a catch-22 you have going on there eh? <br><br>eh, I had more but I accidently deleted it (stupid Winblows.) and I have to get going. <br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 11:57 AM

while i don't go as far as Paul is going with his views on religion, i can also see the point he's making . . . that people who are religious make it seemingly acceptable for bad things to happen in the name of religion (e.g., he explained how polygamist communities still exist because citizens in that part of the country allow it). if, as a society, we didn't accept that stuff then we could have arrested the offenders long ago and little girls wouldn't be getting raped in the name of marriage and God.<br><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 12:15 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>They have to defend believing in something, but the only way you would accept their answer is if they had evidence??<p><hr></blockquote><p>i believe we're probably talking past each other a bit. i can see you picturing my household and it's not at all how i really live with my kids. i do not accept faith as rationale for how my kids are educated and i want them to hold the same standard. when they sit in class, i expect them to ask questions when they don't understand something. if the teachers jump to a conclusion that hasn't been explained or proven then i hope my kids have their hands shooting into the air. i have the same expectations from them that i hope they have of their teachers and of me. if i say something that they don't understand, i hope they question me. <br><br>how do i teach this behavior? well, when i talk with my kids i'll often have them summarize something if it was an important talk. i'll try and get them to generalize the concept from the teachable moment to other situations. of course i don't make it seem like learning; rather, i try and make it fun and i also explain to them why a concept or topic is important -- i'd tell them that the better they can synthesize what we've just discussed helps to demonstrate that they do understand what we've discussed and that this learning can help them to grow their brains. if they can't summarize and explain the talk we had, i then decide whether to keep going and better explain things or whether i need to simplify the concept and wait until they are older to better get it.<br><br>likewise, if my kids tell me something that causes me to be skeptical then i am not going to play along and allow a lie to be accepted as truth. i would much rather have my kids speaking what they know than pretending to know about things that they don't know but instead believe based on faith.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 12:19 PM

Stop using a dictionary incorrectly! Words have many meanings and the fact that they do not agree with each other does not create a "Catch 22" although an irony would be more appropriate.<br><br>When speaking of religious faith your highlighted definition is the one that fits:<br><br>[color:blue] Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. </font color=blue><br><br>Now if you looked up fantasy, magic, superstition, and Santa Claus, those definitions also include words like "does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."<br><br>Because from ghosts to gods, there is no material evidence or logical proof.<br><br>No Catch 22, no irony. Just logical use of the dictionary.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 01:23 PM

Not really to, for, or about Polymerase...Just generally rambling here...<br><br>But the thing that I couldn't ignore ever since I got passed the "Age of Reason" <br>was how people never seem to question that 95% of The Judeo/Christian dogma<br>relies on a book that was not only written by a man, but a man that was raised<br>as an EGYPTION, and not just any Egyptian, but a member of the RULING CLASS,<br>which grew up in the time-honored tradition of using the gods to not only explain<br>but to intimidate and manipulate the masses into doing their bidding. Yet people<br>never seem to question that in writing the first several books of the Bible, and <br>"the Law of Moses" that he was doing the very same thing that's been established <br>throughout this very thread... DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS RAISED TO DO use <br>the gods (in this case GOD) to lead the people that he wanted to lead how, where, <br>when and why he wanted to lead them, through a desert, for a LO-O-O-ONG Time!<br><br>Moses didn't invent God, per se', the nomadic people from the tribe of Abram<br>had already found themselves in the Land of Egypt having gone from shepherds<br>to advisers, to bankers, and had their applecart overturned to make them slaves.<br>Moses didn't invent God, but I do believe that he added to the mythology that <br>eventually became the basis of the 3 most popular Western Religions today.<br><br> I simply got tired of being lead around by the nose & started thinking for myself.<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Leslie

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 01:45 PM

I simply got tired of being lead around by the nose & started thinking for myself. (and you look much better without that ring in your nose.)<br><br>equals<br><br>Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true.<br>Buddha<br><br>
Posted by: Lea

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 02:10 PM

I agree, Giz.<br><br>What started this amazingly civil and well visited thread was the story about children abused in a polygamist setting. And that seriously begs the question ~ at what point does someone else's beliefs become our business?<br><br>We've careened around some interesting corners, but bottom line, and I think we're all missing this if we want to stay on the original topic, which we never do ~ arrest the bastards and prosecute them to the fullest.<br><br>Anyway, that's my Cliff Notes version, if you haven't read all three gazillion posts.<br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 02:12 PM

Buddha got a lot of stuff right. Too bad to be a Buddhist you have to hang out with other Buddhists. <br><br>Woah, watch a bunch of granola eating wankers. (See I am equal opportunity slammer of all religions.)<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 02:15 PM

In perfect agreement Lea and the Cliff Notes shouldn't stop there. Arrest the cops in town who are FLDS followers who are protecting the rapists. Arrest the politicians that also ignore it. And on down the line.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 02:31 PM

"i am raising my kids to be atheists"<br><br>Was your quote, and no five year old is going to form the opinion that there definitively is or isn't a God or gods unless he was told by an authority figure he trusts.<br><br>And unequivocally, I think that is as wrong as someone pushing God on their kid. I am paraphrasing (but if I have to, I can go back and find some quotes) but you said that you are sure to tell your kid(s) that they have to understand that some people need this psychological crutch of God and religion deal with life, etc etc. Well, if that is not teaching a superior attitude towards all those poor believers/ignoramuses (ingorama?) I don't know what it is. <br><br>If a kid asks about God or gods (or other issues of this nature) the only responsible answer is to tell him/her (and I have done so before) that it is something he will have to work out for himself. Or to put it more simply, say, "What do you think?", because what kids think without adult intervention is also important.<br><br>It is certainly not incumbent upon me (or anyone else) to give a child a packaged world view which he is going to take as gospel and that is eventually going to bang up against all the other "truths" and cause his adolescent and even adults years to be more confusing than they already are.<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 02:31 PM

...And send Warren Jeffs to my house for about 10 minutes.<br><br>I have a bit of faith in my belief system that I'd like to try out on him.<br><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 03:15 PM

"i am raising my kids to be atheist" is my quote, but they don't even know the term atheism yet. they merely know that i don't believe in God and that i'd gladly change my view if presented with scientific evidence. they have a very basic understanding of what the scientific method is, so as they get older i can expand upon it to help them understand my thinking. but right now they have just a rudimentary understanding of the concept that some people refer to as God, but that their belief is wholly based on faith and not on evidence. i don't tell them that people use God as a crutch in a spiteful manner; rather, i tell them that religion can be as a crutch and that some people going through hard times even find religion to actually be beneficial. i don't bad mouth religion in front of my kids as i certainly don't want them to repeat anything that they can't understand enough to discuss with whomever would hear them repeat it. i might be guilty of explaining how some people use religion to justify blowing themselves up or shooting an abortion doctor, etc. so in this sense, i am certainly not a religion cheerleader, but i don't make it a point to denigrate religion.<br><br>finally, if they ask about God i don't think it's unreasonable to say that there is no evidence that a God or many gods exist and this is largely why we don't even teach it in public schools as truth. <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 04:41 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>And unequivocally, I think that is as wrong as someone pushing God on their kid.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Since I am in the same boat I will answer this too. <br><br>Bullshi[i][/i]t. I do not push anything on my kids except the truth as verifiable by observation and logic. Once they stopped believing in Santa Claus I also stopped pushing any fantasies on them. I cannot make that sound any less pompous or righteous or any other condescending word you can think up.<br>Sorry, I can't change the wording because those words are true.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: lanovami

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 05:12 PM

Well, my response was more for Sean than you. If you don't push atheism on your kid than it is not an issue with me. (And just to make it clear, pushing the other way rankles me just as much.)<br><br>While we are on the subject, did you have much to do with your kids' belief in Santa Claus? Because to be honest the whole Santa Claus things has always bugged me. He is as much of a postulated super being as any of the others. I don't see why he is any less of an impediment just because kids find out eventually that he is a myth. My mother never tried to make SC real for me, and I was always skeptical (back from when I can remember anyway). However, my son's pre-school was very determined about keeping this myth alive as long as possible (they even sent out a letter to parents saying so in so many words). I thought about telling my son there is no Santa Claus (of this one I am sure) but I knew it would cause more problems than not at preschool, so I just stayed away from the issue. He figured it out on his own anyway, and faster than most kids (probably because my wife and I never perpetuated the myth at home).<br><br>We are what we repeatedly do. -Aristotle
Posted by: margadagio

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 06:05 PM

Are you the Grinch?<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 06:14 PM

Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy I think are perfectly fine for kids. For one they are not going to build an entire belief system around one of those fairy tales as there are built in brakes. Older brothers will tell, that sort of thing. (There are not a bunch of Easter Bunny priests ready to snatch your kid and convince them to pray to the Easter bunny.) I never pushed these three fairy tales but if my kids wanted to believe then I was the first to make sure the carrots left for the reindeer were eaten by morning, the Gin left for Santa was drained, and that there were muddy footprints that looked like tiny reindeer. But if they asked me if it was real I told them the truth but it was OK to make believe because it was just a fairy tale kind of thing.<br><br>When God was brought up by the proselytizing neighbor friend I could treat it in almost the same way but in a less jovial way. She believed in this fantasy and it is better just to let them believe it and don't let them bug you about it because you did not believe in magic or fairy tales about a Supreme Being who made the world and is waiting in heaven on a cloud for you.<br><br>I do have to make it seem like the truth is the more attractive viewpoint but that is not very hard to do considering how ridiculous it is to believe in heaven and God and all that. So really I don't push anything but the truth. There is no ideology, no atheism is just another religion. No, religion is fantasy and made up stories to make people feel better and calling all this BS what it is, mumbo-jumbo is just the plain old truth.<br><br>I can see how a religious person gets upset when they hear this. Do they think just by knowing an atheist exists in their midst somehow makes their chance to get to heaven less so? Absurdity piles on top of absurdity.<br><br>The one part that gives me the warm and fuzzies about all this is the exit interviews that cult members give after they are rescued from the religious cult. Invariably their childhood was spent in a religious atmosphere. One where they figured out their parents didn't even believe the BS and so they in this mixed up state went off to find the true path and instead land up with David Koresh or they become a Mormon or some other weirdo sect maybe even a Methodist. These are parents that say, "Oh, go ahead sweetie, go and believe any weirdo idea you want because we believe in weirdo stuff too but not quite sure." They go try to find parents that are not wishy-washy and will not lie to them and they are preyed upon by all sorts of sick religious nut bars. Their parents always seem quite normal except for a bit of weird sporadic bible banging type behavior which to our President is completely normal so it is looked upon with a great way to raise kids.<br><br>Did you ever read an interview of the parent's of the American Taliban? "Oh we let him go think anything he wanted, whatever religion was OK by us." What a bunch of stupid as[i][/i]ses. <br><br>So I may come off as being very intolerant of religions and I am. I will tolerate them if they leave me alone but they rarely do. And since they are a scourge on humanity from polygamists, to Koresh, to the Green River killer, to the babies with arms cut off, to the World Trade Center and suicide bombers. It is very hard to be tolerant when they create wars and the Iraq War is now a purely religious war. The middle east is a string of past and future wars all about religion. <br><br>If they only knew that fighting about who's God is better is so absurd when I know that the Invisible Pink Unicorn (bbhhh) is the best and only God.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 06:20 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I will tolerate them if they leave me alone but they rarely do. And since they are a scourge on humanity from polygamists, to Koresh, to the Green River killer, to the babies with arms cut off, to the World Trade Center and suicide bombers. It is very hard to be tolerant when they create wars and the Iraq War is now a purely religious war. The middle east is a string of past and future wars all about religion. <p><hr></blockquote><p>And so I guess my post about this being a MAN thing and not a religion thing doesn't apply here?<br><br>I'm afraid it does. God doesn't bother you, that's man knocking on your door. God doesn't start wars, that's man. Just because someone hides behind the face of religion doesn't mean they are doing God's work.<br><br>How come you have a hard time separating the two? <br><br>my beer blog<br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by OSXaddict on 09/10/07 09:21 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: FSM

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 06:39 PM

my son believes in santa claus and the tooth fairy. i struggled with this one for both of my kids, but like Poly said . . . kids are not going to develop a whole belief system around these characters of fiction -- and, a kid can't really use this belief in a harmful way to others or interpret it in manner that is evil. and, once they learn the truth as my 2nd grade daughter has, i used this revelation as a teachable moment to explain that her previous immature belief in these super natural characters is exactly how large segments of society can believe in a God with no evidence -- because we want it to be true as it seems like such a good thing that we put faith in it. at least kids have what they perceive to be evidence that Santa and the tooth fairy exist since kids receive gifts and notes, etc. specifically from these characters -- they can even see Santa at the mall. plus, the kids' brains are not developed enough to really cipher out the truth even though they may be skeptical from an early age. i say i struggled and in the end, i decided i didn't want to be the father of the kids who ruined it for the other kids. but, my daughter is in 2nd grade and she no longer believes, but she's not telling her little brother yet. perhaps this winter???<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 06:50 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And so I guess my post about this being a MAN thing and not a religion thing doesn't apply here?<br><br>I'm afraid it does. God doesn't bother you, that's man knocking on your door. God doesn't start wars, that's man. Just because someone hides behind the face of religion doesn't mean they are doing God's work.<br><br>How come you have a hard time separating the two? <p><hr></blockquote><p>Simply because you ask an absurd question of someone who does not believe in any Supreme Being. God does not exist without man because God is a complete invention of man. So what is left? Man. The man who wrote the bible, created religions out of whole cloth, subjugated people with the power of this made up religion, started wars because of religion, ethnically cleansed because of religion and for God. All for this fictitious God.<br><br>Your question makes as much sense to me as "Can't you separate all the good things that people do in the name of the Easter bunny from all the bad things that man does in the name of the Easter Bunny?<br><br>Without this MAN <sic> thing there is no God thing. There is no religion.<br>But I am afraid we are so not on the same page I may as well be speaking Swahili.<br><br>If in the simplest terms you are asking "can I separate men who do good thing with religion from people who bad things with religion" than sure, I can do that. Good people can do whatever they want. Bad people who use religion to exploit others really sucks. George Bush is a prime example. Mother Theresa is an example of the opposite in some ways although she did keep the peasants from trying to revolt which they should have because she gave them eternal bliss after death which is one mean trick on her part. Accept your groveling stature and don't cause trouble. <br><br>So you see, I have a hard time finding tons of good in this God thing of yours. With or without man. What is God without man? A dude on a cloud who is extremely bored with nothing to do. Sorry, joke.<br><br>God does not exist without man because God is an invention of man. I should have just typed that sentence.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 07:04 PM

I wanna know where the gin goes.<br><br>That's all.<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: SparkCollector

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 07:08 PM

(Not specifically to you, Poly. I just clicked "REPLY" on the last post in the thread).<br><br>I mentioned my granddad earlier, and spoke of how he was a deeply religious man, but very quiet about it.<br><br>He read his bible, he went to church, and believed up to his eyeballs.<br><br>But he NEVER really spoke directly about it. Instead, he chose to live his life in deeds that reflected the principles he gathered from his studies. He was known far and wide as one of the kindest men around; Example: He was hiring blacks, native americans, and japanese when many of his contractor/construction worker peers were trying to talk him out of it, and bad-mouthing him to each other and the unions because of his take-each-man-as-he-comes philosophy. He stood his ground, quietly, and continued on. Of course, the rest of the United States finally started catching up to what he put into action, based on his convictions.<br><br>That he lived his life quietly, as a good, and powerful-but-gentle man, is enough for me. I didn't care how he arrived at his life, I just looked up to him as a man whose deeds were worthy of emulation.<br><br>Similarly, though I could debate well, and until the cows come home, about my conviction that God is a myth, I generally choose not to, because I have taken a page from my granddad's book and try to live my beliefs quietly.<br><br>That should be enough for any man.<br><br>
Posted by: FSM

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 07:20 PM

yes it should . . . be sure and let those darn atheists know that the next time they <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV-a1vmZ6y8">knock on your door during dinner</a>. <br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 07:31 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I wanna know where the gin goes.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Short story:<br><br>I had a niece and nephew at right age an I think I was just out of college and my sister made a Santa Suit for me. It was really very exciting making smoke come out of these kid's ears as I ran across the lawn after ringing some reindeer bells. I would climb to the porch and read their notes then drink the whiskey set out by my sister. <br><br>I told her just a wee bit of whiskey and I have this full beard on so I have to sort of toss it down my throat and it's about four jiggers. After egg nog and some beers Santa had a real hard time not doing a technicolor Christmas Rainbow across the porch.<br><br>One year was 15 below zero and the whiskey was just fine. But the kids were getting suspicious by then and they saw me cut toward the front yard. I am freezing my nads off and am met at the door by my sister who makes me run back and forth for the next twenty minutes under the streetlights down the street like I am hitting the other houses.<br><br>Uncle Santa was a tad nippy. But it was all worth it when coming down from upstairs after faking a nap and they are bouncing up and down telling me what I missed and what Santa did.<br><br>With my kids I switched to a nice cold gin with a splash of vermouth. Goodness, Santa drinks martinis.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 07:43 PM

I am going to take an educated guess and bet that your granddad would have been as righteous a man without the bible and the religion but in his day and age that would have seemed out of place and an illogical step for him to take. <br><br>Men can live very moral lives with or without the bible. I would bet your grandad knew that too. That was why he looked upon a godless heathen and only saw a capable man.<br><br>If the world was made up of men like your grandad you would never hear a peep out of me about religion again.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 08:56 PM

Anyone ever read this book? I think it's deeply flawed, but it makes a provocative case for the ultimate limitations of rationalism.<br><br>Discuss.<br><br><br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: FSM

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 09:09 PM

i think there's much truth to the fact that we can't answer a lot of questions that remain and that we may never be able to. then again, with advances in technology i won't count out figuring out some other big unanswered questions in my life time.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/10/07 10:10 PM

In 1980 in my first lab doing real science everyone had just read Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid and the discussion was, everything in biology is solved, we are just cleaning up the loose ends. This wasn't the main premise of Hofstrader's book but the topic popped out of it. In retrospect nothing could have been further from the truth.<br>Now in biology one could say the same thing, we are just naming diseases and figuring out genetic pathways and enzymes. Much faster than before because we have blueprints, the genome in hand.<br>I could see a Watson or a Crick or even a Stephen Jay Gould saying that.<br>But really, nothing could be further from the truth. We now have some tools to explore the proteome and the brain but we are still using very ham fisted ideas to deal with the deluge of data. We aren't smart enough yet and there are breakthroughs that have to be made to clarify and simplify or it will be a very difficult task. I have no doubt those breakthroughs will occur.<br><br>Physics? Well sure, that field is played out and their just chasing inferred particles. But I don't know if the young studs in the field would be saying that. The old farts I bet do. And the book you mention has a long list of the old farts, the giants we are supposed to be standing on the shoulders of. <br>They should just hold still and be quiet. Their time has passed. <br><br>But haven't read the book and it's not on my buy list. From the quick blurb I would say the methodology is heavily flawed and the author has an OCD thing about khaki pants. Did he have an hypothesis and then went out to prove it by interviewing all the movers and shakers in science? He missed them by a generation. He should have been talking to scientists in their 20s.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Llewelyn

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 03:50 AM

So do you believe that if religion was banned world wide that man would not still subvert a system to do what is done today? Men will still rape, men will still have sex with animals, men will still commit ethnic cleansing, men will still oppress the masses......<br><br>Religion is merely a convenient excuse that men use to commit evil acts on other men.<br><br><br><br>I used to think it was terrible that life was unfair. Then I thought what if life were fair and all of the terrible things that happen came because we really deserved them? Now I take comfort in the general unfairness and hostility of the universe.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Llewelyn on 09/11/07 06:51 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 04:45 AM

I would not ban religion because that would give it a special status. No, I would remove the special status that it has already. Tax it. Do not allow abuses to be covered up and ignored. Do not allow politicians to use it as a club to force acquiescence.<br><br>Yes, men will still be men and women will still be women with all their foibles. You cannot legislate their inherent need to try to join together in a group and do good things or bad. That some people have an insatiable need to have power and control over a group whether it is up to god or evil. That others have an insatiable need to be told what to do and why they are here. Banning religion would be a huge mistake. It would be boring too. The founding fathers had it right. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I would just try to change the attitude that when man bands together to do bad and call it religion that they are held accountable just like anyone else. Deference is not given because "oh, he is a religious leader." I would think that religious people should hold their leaders up to a higher standard because of the position of power that they hold. It seems instead that religious leaders are held up to a much lower standard that would get the local dog catcher fired immediately.<br><br>I would still not take part in any of these groups and that should be my voluntary choice. I should not have to carry any extra burden because I am not in the "in crowd." Leaving me alone and not telling me what to do in the name of God would be a start.<br><br>Making the excuse that evil will still exist is in the same category as "at least our sick bastards aren't as criminal as their sick bastards." We can all do better. We can certainly do better than to sit idly by and allow polygamists to rape 13 year old girls in God's name.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 07:14 AM

BREAK<br><center><br><br><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SpkSeVgvA0o"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SpkSeVgvA0o" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><br><br></center><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 07:23 AM

<br>Very Very Very well said.<br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 07:31 AM

I love how reverential the music always is for these kinds of films.<br><br>I'm also wondering why we skirt around the fundamental premise of the book I linked to above, that quite possibly the universe is not a rational phenomenon and that our idea that rational analysis will figure it all out is itself a reverential stance--a matter of faith, so to speak. Like I said, I think the argument is flawed, but that doesn't mean the premise is.<br><br>Let me add that usually I'm as fervent a believer in the rationality of things as anyone else. But on odd days every other blue moon, I have me doubts, donchaknow.<br><br><br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 07:38 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>If in the simplest terms you are asking "can I separate men who do good thing with religion from people who bad things with religion" than sure, I can do that. Good people can do whatever they want. Bad people who use religion to exploit others really sucks.<p><hr></blockquote><p>FINALLY you understand what I was talking about. We both agree on this point. <br><br>Oh, and I"m done with this thread.<br><br><br>my beer blog<br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 07:42 AM

And SOMEWHERE in all that mess I stated that <br>we have a need to make order of things<br>...even in the absence of any.<br><br>EDIT from pg1: to add...<br><br>The "need for religion" is actually a "need for order"<br>IOW "a need to make sense of things" EVERYTHING!<br>There's no question:"WHY" that can ever be fully<br>satisfied by a simple; "BECAUSE"<br><br>"Those whom heaven helps we call the sons of heaven. They do not learn this by<br>learning. They do not work it by working. They do not reason it by using reason.<br>To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment.<br>Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on the lathe of heaven." ~ Chuang Tse.<br><br>I wanted to add that:<br>even though to some people "Ignorance equals bliss" <br>On a personal level, I happen not to agree.<br>I find ignorance irritating.<br><br>Asking "WHY" drives the Human Race Forward.<br>(THANK GOD!) lololol just needed saying. <br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Celandine on 09/11/07 10:56 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 08:15 AM

I agree--ignorance is not bliss. And the poet Gray, who wrote the "Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College" where that line appears, actually wrote, "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise." That subordinating conjunction is usually dropped, but it's a really important one, generally speaking as well as in the context of the ode itself, in which Gray, observing the kids at Eton playing on the schoool's fields (where according to Churchill WW I was won, no less), remembers his own "innocent" past as a child in the school, and contrasts it with the cynical wisdom he's gained as he's grown up and learned all about "The still sad music of humanity, / Nor harsh, nor grating, but of ample power / To chasten and subdue" (that's Wordsworth, not Gray, but Gray would agree). In light of the contrast, then, Gray concludes that the kids (and by extension humanity generally) are "little victims" ignorant of their fate. That's when he adds, "Where ignorance is bliss . . . ." Not exactly a ringing endorsement of ignorance!<br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Kick out the boys - 09/11/07 09:27 AM

But that does brings us back to those that would rather put their faith<br>in mythology rather than seek answers for why things are as they are.<br><br>Another grating answer is "...because that's the way it's ALWAYS been."<br>as a lame excuse for not doing anything to change what is plainly not working.<br><br>The situation in the Middle East leaps to mind... also what polymerase eluded<br>to as religion being no excuse for any group/nation to not be held accountable.<br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>