Any reason ...

Posted by: MattMac112

Any reason ... - 04/21/05 07:51 AM

... to even hold a trial? <br><br><blockquote>Prosecutors: Lunsford Raped, Buried Alive<br>Wednesday, April 20, 2005<br><br>TAMPA, Fla. A 9-year-old girl was raped, bound and buried alive, kneeling and clutching a purple stuffed dolphin, state prosecutors said in documents released Wednesday.<br><br>Jessica Lunsford's (search) body was found March 19 buried about 150 yards from her house in Homosassa, about 60 miles north of Tampa.<br><br>According to the documents, Jessica was found wearing shorts and a shirt different from the pink nightgown her family said she was wearing when they reported her missing Feb. 24, The Tampa Tribune said in its online edition late Wednesday.<br><br>The body was wrapped in two plastic trash bags knotted at her head and feet in a grave covered by a mound of leaves, the state attorney's office said in the documents.<br><br>Jessica died of asphyxiation, according to a coroner's report. A convicted sex offender,John Evander Couey (search), 46, is charged in her slaying.<br><br>Officials said they believe Jessica may have been alive in Couey's home while police and volunteers searched for her. After she was killed, Couey fled to Georgia.<br><br>A message left for Couey's attorney was not immediately returned Wednesday evening.</blockquote><br><br>link<br><br>****************<br>[color:red]Fat people are harder to kidnap</font color=red>
Posted by:

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 07:57 AM

His death needs to be very slow, very painful and very soon.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 08:10 AM

I know this is a gross over-simplification, and an admittedly barbaric thought (I can feel the wrath of the forum liberati already ), but if in fact the sentence is death, why can't the method of execution be the same as the method used in the murder?<br><br>
Posted by: TheGreatDivide

Fk the pen, die by the sword. - 04/21/05 08:19 AM

reason? You mean lack of community perhaps? All the hands in the war cookie jar bit x bit adding up to these society based fractures... <br>Who cares about anyone right? I mean, that's what the GOP Inc. mantra is,<br>face it. Would this happen under a 'nonwartime' 'Merika?<br><br>Ah, he should've been put down like a dog.<br>Dugh...<br>bill<br>you dummy<br><br>[color:green]I was there in 2000 when they flew confederate flags for 'no recount'.</font color=green>
Posted by: LoveTheBomb

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 08:26 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>why can't the method of execution be the same as the method used in the murder?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Because I'd like to think that we are better than he is.<br><br>If its any consolation, child rapists often tortured by prison inmates.<br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 08:53 AM

AMEN!<br><br>****************<br>[color:red]Fat people are harder to kidnap</font color=red>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 09:05 AM

Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't argue with that. But there are some things that it's just very hard to rise above. Murder is bad. Rape is bad. Either crime visited upon a child is that much worse. And when you put all 3 factors together, there is no consolation. Even if the perp gets his due at the hands of fellow inmates, it doesn't offer the same closure gained from a court decree.<br><br>If we have to spare the life of such a monster to prove we're better then him, then we need a new PR agency.<br><br>
Posted by: snag

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 09:30 AM

Well, if you want to just believe the prosecutors without question I guess not. That way anyone who is accused of anything is automatically guilty. Including you.<br><br>The justice system is the way it is for a reason. It's to protect YOU from overzealous and corrupt accusers. It doesn't matter how heinous the crime is; a trial is ALWAYS necessary. It's what separates our society from a totalitarian one.<br><br>
Posted by: Walrus

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 09:35 AM

The real failure here is the lack of adequate supervision and surveillance of known sex offenders. And if need be, perpetual incarceration - the recidivism rate is just too high to let these preverts loose on society and our children.<br><br>
Posted by: Mississauga

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 09:42 AM

If I recall correctly, an admission of guilt was made. If so, I suggest not a moment should be wasted in putting the perpetrator to death.<br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 10:13 AM

This meth'd up loser druggie kidnapped a little girl from her own bed .. used her for his own twisted sexual pleasures .. then tied a her hands together, put her in a trash bag and buried her alive .. all while she was shaking, crying and (probably) begging for her Mom and Dad. Then ADMITTED doing it, but blamed it on 'the drugs.' <br><br>This fsck should be executed now on closed circuit TV, piped in to every prison in this country, designated as required viewing .. Real must see TV.<br><br>****************<br>no sig
Posted by: snag

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 10:19 AM

You are totally right. This seems to happen a lot.<br><br>
Posted by: snag

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 10:25 AM

It doesn't matter that he confessed. Confession happen all the time and sometimes they're bogus or coerced. In this case it will probably result in a a very short trial, but there should be trial nevertheless to determine that the confession is in fact REAL and not coerced in any way.<br><br>Thankfully, there are FAR bigger and greater minds than you or I have who have decided long ago that trials are necessary. We should thank them for saving us from a summary judgement, fascist police state that executes people on the spot. Of course, there are still those around who prefer that sort of "justice." That is until it's their turn.<br><br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 10:55 AM

SNAG ... I'm not honestly suggesting a trial shouldn't be held. I'm contrasting today's horrific news of how this little girl was killed against a sarcastic notion that a trial for this demonic loser shouldn't be held. <br><br>Obviously I'm not suggesting a systemic and rapid dismantling of our legal apparatus.<br><br>****************<br>no sig
Posted by: snag

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 11:05 AM

I understand that, but our legal system exists precisely so that emotional repsonses to horrible crimes such as this don't cloud the thinking of lawmakers who are often only too willing to pander to those emotions.<br><br>Anybody can be forgiven for wanting revenge against such a demon. It's just so horrible.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: LoveTheBomb

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 11:13 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>If we have to spare the life of such a monster to prove we're better then him, then we need a new PR agency.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Oh, you misunderstand me. I agree with the death penalty. I believe that there are some people who are despicable enough that they should be killed. These are people that, if they live, could cause more horrendous things to happen. These people cannot be "corrected".<br><br>I was arguing the fact that they should suffer a slow painful death. No, it should be quick and painless. Period.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 11:38 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>No, it should be quick and painless. Period.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Ah, but that's exactly my point. Quick and painless is rarely what the victims of these crimes experience. Quick and painless means there's no suffering. And suffer is what these animals should do. Because if other would-be perps know that they will suffer if convicted, maybe... just maybe, they'll think twice before they act.<br><br>Again, I recognize that this is a knuckle-dragger's P.O.V., but it seems that the civilized approach has done little or nothing to slow this growing cancer.<br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 11:43 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I understand that, but our legal system exists precisely so that emotional repsonses to horrible crimes<p><hr></blockquote><p>And no one is challenging that. <br><br><br>****************<br>no sig
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 12:13 PM

As it is, even with a 'quick and painless' execution, someone's livelihood involves them carrying out that execution. There is a very high incidence of psychological problems and suicide amongst workers in abbatoirs, people who are also paid to kill for the satisfaction of others. If someone's not willing to carry out a slow and painful execution themselves, should they wish that experience on someone else? And if someone is willing to do that, they're the last person that should have that job, in my opinion.<br><br>Personally, I think the death penalty is just a lack of funds/imagination - people would rather characterise someone as 'a monster' and remove them from the picture than accept that everyone has in them the capacity for doing both harm and good, and we're responsible for looking out for each other and ourselves on that front. If someone isn't capable of taking responsibilty for their own power to do harm, then it's right for others to be responsible in their place, at the very least to prevent them from doing harm, but ideally also to help them become better people. Killing someone takes away from them the opportunity to change. This is why murder and execution are both immoral and a bloody waste.<br><br>What's my agenda? I am a buddhist, but I'm also someone who was used for sex at the age of six. If I hate the person who did that to me, that just means more suffering than there was already. Hatred hurts. </sermon?><br><br>My 1.048 pence worth (at the current exchange rate...)<br><br>- padmavyuha <br><br>Where the truth is, there had better be love...
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 12:29 PM

While I admire your outlook and compassion, especially in light of your past, I have a hard time giving child molesters and murders a chance to turn themselves around. The majority of these non-humans are repeat offenders, and should be kept off the streets for good.<br><br>You refer to the death penalty as a lack of funds and imagination. Maybe so. But should we also have to pay for lifetime tuition in the big house? And pay for the rehab that works maybe 1.048% of the time?<br><br>I suppose you're right about recruiting executioners for messy killings. But the sad truth is, there will be those that would step forward with enthusiasm. Besides, I think the suicide rate is higher among air traffic controllers and dentists (sorry, DrJohn ).<br><br>
Posted by: LoveTheBomb

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 12:59 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Quick and painless is rarely what the victims of these crimes experience. Quick and painless means there's no suffering. And suffer is what these animals should do.<p><hr></blockquote><p>The death penalty is not about revenge for crimes. Someone who is given the death penalty should be seen as a person who is a severe threat to society with no possible chance of being "corrected". Therefore they should be put down in the fastest possible and most humane way. Honestly, just like I'd expect of any other animal.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Because if other would-be perps know that they will suffer if convicted, maybe... just maybe, they'll think twice before they act.<p><hr></blockquote><p>People have said the same thing about the death penalty. I basically don't see how "scaring" people into not committing crimes will work against these sick individuals. They don't think like normal people. Some may actually get off on knowing they might get caught.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> but it seems that the civilized approach has done little or nothing to slow this growing cancer.<p><hr></blockquote><p>The best crime prevention is education, family, community, and a good police force. I doubt a "suffering" death penalty would phase these sick individuals one bit.<br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 01:38 PM

Wow...very intelligent post there, Padmavyuha. I totally agree with you. <br><br>I wish some of the kids I work with saw things your way. How long did it take for you to realize this?<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 01:57 PM

The victims were not put down in a humane way, were they? There's a difference between revenge and demonstration. In fact, there's your "education". Teach these killers and would-be killers that death hurts.<br><br>Maybe I'm a tad jaded because I was robbed once years ago, and had the side of my head caved in by a nut case in the subway just last year. Not anywhere near what's being done to our children, but believe me, when you personally experience violent crime, it changes your point of view.<br><br>But just to really confuse you, I barely missed having to sit on a jury in a capitol murder trial in NYC 3 or 4 years ago. 5 drug dealer brothers had ambushed and killed 3 rivals on a Bronx street corner. Scum killing scum. Boy howdy was I relieved not to be empaneled, because I wasn't looking forward to the possibility of having to decide on the life or death of these 5 alleged killers. I don't take the death penalty lightly.<br><br>
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 02:22 PM

At the very least, this "puss bucket" should be castrated with a gas powered weed wacker! Then we'll decide if he deserves the chance to turn around.<br><br><br><br><br>got to let your eyes adjust
Posted by: LoveTheBomb

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 02:24 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> In fact, there's your "education". Teach these killers and would-be killers that death hurts.<p><hr></blockquote><p>but thats my point. I don't think that "severe" death penalty would affect these people.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Maybe I'm a tad jaded because I was robbed once years ago, and had the side of my head caved in by a nut case in the subway just last year<p><hr></blockquote><p>Or maybe I'm a little naive.<br><br>
Posted by: Walrus

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 03:10 PM

Gotta go see if I can find me a video copy of "M". German movie from the early Thirties about a child murderer, played by Peter Lorre, who is eventually killed by fellow citizens when the constabulary is helpless to do anything, as I recall. <br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 03:44 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>In fact, there's your "education". Teach these killers and would-be killers that death hurts.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>The best person to ask this is Waleed. In Saudi Arabia they behead people for different crimes. Not sure if they still do the "take his right hand if he steals" thing, but for sure Waleed would know.<br><br>We have had the death penalty since it was brought back in the 70's (76?) and since then has it deterred murderers, cop-killers, and other capital-crime killers? I wonder what the stats are (if any) that show the violent crime rate before and after the death penalty was brought back.<br><br>What this guy did was horrendous to be sure and I'm sure if I was related to the victim I would be screaming out for what you said, but I don't know. Right now death would be too easy for him. Let him sit in prison for the rest of his life being ignored by the general public. (Anyone heard from Ted Kazinski (spelling?) since he got incarcerated? I know I haven't!)<br><br>I read someplace (wish I could remember where, but it wasn't on the internet I know that) that the cost of someone serving a life sentence was cheaper than someone sentenced to death due to the amount of appeals and such. Perhaps someone else knows what I'm talking about?<br><br>
Posted by: drjohn

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 03:47 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Besides, I think the suicide rate is higher among air traffic controllers and dentists (sorry, DrJohn ).<p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, too much time spent looking down in the mouth does take it's toll. I don't know if it's still true or not, but among professionals, dentists did have the highest suicide rate. <br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 03:51 PM

I wonder why that is/was? That would be an interesting study I think.<br><br>
Posted by: padmavyuha

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:00 PM

Well, 'realize' is pushing it a bit - it's still work in progress, but my 'big breakthrough' was when I told a friend I was really angry with someone, and his response was: "Oh, you poor thing - it's really painful being angry, I hope you get over it soon..." For sure I'm still angry with the person who used me - but I can mostly see the pointlessness of being angry, so I'm not completely identified with it, if you get me - I know people (I'm working my way out of being one of these. see) who had something bad happen in their past but they've kind of made it part of them, like "I'm like this because that happened to me" and once you've got a habit like that, an investment, it's harder to give it up, so we lug all this crap around with us, get it out occasionally and look at it or show it around like a polaroid snapshot of ourselves, making loads of effort to stay looking like we do in the picture - like walking up a down escalator.<br><br>While I'm sounding off here, it can also be a big obstacle to self-development (or whatever you want to call becoming a better person) to identify yourself as oppressed, or as part of an oppressed group of people; having overidentified myself in the past with 'gay', 'jewish', and 'abused', and spent a lot of time around other people doing the same, I observe that people (myself awfully included) often end up using "I've been hurt" or "we've been hurt" as an excuse not to take responsibilty for any hurt that we cause - like no-one's allowed to criticise us because we've been hurt (as if we have the monopoly on that!). This is an obstacle to growth because if you can't admit you're imperfections or allow anyone else to point them out, how can you move on? I have to say that amongst all the great stuff feminism has done, it is by no means immune to this problem either.<br>Erm, < /intense ><br><br>Anyway, back on topic, there's a lot of this going on for people who do harm - what they do has a big impact on them too, and not wanting to face it makes it more likely that they'll repeat the behaviour, because justifying something to yourself once to avoid guilt/shame gets easier/reinforced the next time round. But from the buddhist perspective, the 'self' is just a whole bunch of habits strung together - habits, so changeable - habits, so taking some effort to overcome. Yeah, people who do bad things to children need preventing from doing that (for their own good as much as anyone's) - but we've all got our work cut out if we don't want to end up like the kind of furious old people we can't stand now wink (it's midnight - someone take this microphone away from me...)<br><br>- padmavyuha (currently bisexual, buddhist, and sexually amused...)<br><br>Where the truth is, there had better be love...
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:06 PM

The reason the death penalty does not deter as much as one would think is because the law has no teeth. If sentenced to death, an inmate indeed has access to that very appeals process that you mentioned. Years and years and thousand and thousands of dollars while the victim's family has no closure. Has to sit through hearing after hearing, reliving the horrific events repeatedly.<br><br>Beheadings and amputations are barbaric indeed. But because these punishments are swift and final, I'd be willing to bet that the deterrence factor is greater than it is here.<br><br>So please don't try to play the non-deterrent and expense cards. If the system were more efficient, if sentences were carried out without the abuse of due process, you'd see more perps fear the consequences of their actions.<br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:11 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The real failure here is the lack of adequate supervision and surveillance of known sex offenders<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Oops..missed this. <br><br>You are exactly right. We have a site for Kentucky registered sex offenders and you can see if someone is compliant or non-compliant. Why they don't go out looking for this person, I don't know, but here's what it says when they are non-compliant:<br><br><br><br>What's scary is how many killings/kidnappings have happened recently in FL with known sex-offenders...this makes 3 in the last 6 months? (or 2 or more..not sure but it's enough!) <br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:15 PM

Well, one good thing about the appeals process and delaying execution is that at least one person has been pulled off of death row due to him being innocent.<br><br>Correction..according to this site, 92. http://www.truthinjustice.org/no92.htm<br><br>oops..that was in 2001.<br><br>It's actually 115 since 2004<br><br><br>Dang it...if only they had went ahead and zapped them suckers, we wouldn't have to worry about releasing the innocent and possible civil suits to follow! <br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:22 PM

Hmm...one thing about open discussions like this is it makes me realize that my opinion on something CAN be changed!<br><br>Before today, I probably leaned more for the death penalty. But really thinking about it and seeing some posts here I have come to realize that the death penalty should be abolished. <br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:22 PM

I think your approach to a very personal and traumatic experience is indeed admirable. And I agree with your take on how counter-productive anger is. But what you're describing is a very inward-facing thing. Shedding your anger certainly works for you and those close to you, but I'm not sure if it works outwardly as a societal remedy.<br><br>Oddly enough, I've never felt anger toward the kid who slugged me last year, even though I damn near lost an eye and have 2 titanium plates and 8 screws (all of 'em loose ) in my head as a result. In fact, instead of calling a cop, I flagged a cab and got my busted face to the ER so I could get Xrays and a lollipop. But do I hope young Mr. Haymaker goes off on the wrong guy some day. You better believe it!<br><br>Good on you for your attitude, but your tormentor still deserves to be dealt with in a manner befitting his crime.<br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:24 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> but your tormentor still deserves to be dealt with in a manner befitting his crime.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br>There are some that believe he'll be dealt with upon his death. Not in the manner of death but afterwards.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:25 PM

Except for futon theives, that is! <br><br>
Posted by: drjohn

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:28 PM

As one speaker surmised, dentists lose sleep over a less-than-perfect restoration of a tooth...while a neurosurgeon, who is located in his building, kills three people a week and sleeps like a baby. <br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:29 PM

Oh great! Let 'em off the hook today, 'cuz tomorrow they's a-gonna get it from ol' B. L. Zeebub. In fact, let shut down all the prisons and let 'em all loose and just wait for them to die of natural causes. Then they'll be sorry! <br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:33 PM

Not sure how old you are (though it doesn't really matter), but a pursuit of something in psychology would be beneficial for you and for others. (note: not seeing a psychologist, but in the academic field is what I'm talking about)<br><br>I work with kids who have been abused (sexually, mentally, and/or physically) and trying to explain to them that they could live their lives one of 2 ways:<br>Letting their past dictate how they live (anger, possibly becoming like their abuser, depression, etc) and never dealing with what happened and forgiving themselves (not saying that they were at fault, but some victims actually do blame themselves, however incorrect that may be). <br><br>or<br><br>Move on with their lives. Shedding the hate/anger and learn to forgive themselves (and potentially) and their abusers. To realize that there is nothing in this world that can change what happened. Not even harming the abuser.<br><br> I also tell them that they could let the abuser continue to dictate their lives or they could control their own life.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:34 PM

Actually, she wasn't a thief. And she made up for that, so the futon is soooooooooo yesterday. <br><br>Give it up, Steve..I know I have. <br><br>
Posted by: margadagio

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:34 PM

The perp confessed. There will be tons of DNA evidence. Hang him high from his penis and let the buzzards peck at him.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:36 PM

Yes, there's always the chance that an innocent person could be put to death, and there has been a small percentage of exonerations — largely based on newly discovered evidence or testimony, or the development of new investigative technologies. And that's a good thing. But by and large, the vast majority of appeals are an abuse of the law and a drain on money and resources.<br><br>I think as technology advances, the certainty of verdicts will increase proportionately, and the risk of unjust sentences will decrease.<br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:41 PM

Now did I say shut all the prisons down? Don't go so overboard ok?<br><br>Nope. I think that if you owe a debt to society, you pay it.<br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:42 PM

No John. I will not rest until she has been brought to justice. I don't care if she gave you a new futon. Terrabytes of bandwidth were sucked up like pet hair in a vacuum cleaner over this issue. Many of us lost night after night of sleep with worry. And for this, she must PAY!!!<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: OSXaddict

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:43 PM

So dentists (for the most part) are perfectionists? <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 04:50 PM

Psst. John. Word for today: HYPERBOLE<br><br>Put down the life preserver.<br><br>
Posted by: Pete

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 05:05 PM

Yeah, Steve...get over it already....<br><br><br><br>[color:red]5.19.05 - The 'Jedi Slaughter' tour begins!</font color=red>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 05:08 PM

GAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! My eyes! y eyes! <br><br>
Posted by: G4Dualie

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 05:18 PM

"when you personally experience violent crime, it changes your point of view."<br><br>That's right. I saw that in Clockwork Orange. <br><br>
Posted by: steveg

Re: Any reason ... - 04/21/05 05:50 PM

Watch it mate. I'll poke ye in the glazzies wid me rookers, I will! <br><br>