France

Posted by: yoyo52

France - 08/25/04 04:37 PM

OK, I hope most of the anti-French stuff that you hear is "funny." But there's no doubt that France is not a popular country in the US. My question is why--and the lack of support for the Iraqui intervention is not even the beginning of a full answer.<br><br>I imagine some of it has to do with England's historical conflicts with France, and with the usual pre-20th century (and maybe continuing) English sense of superiority over the French. We assume English prejudices because England is our "mother country," even though so few Americans are of British descent (and if you factor in the fact that Scotland never had that sense of being superior to France, then the numbers here are even lower). But that can't be all of it.<br><br>Is it because without France there would have been no United States--a continuing sense of historical insecurity? That strikes me as far-fetched in a country where "history" means what happened a week ago.<br><br>Is it because France has a history that goes back at least 1400 years and ours goes back only 250? Again, I doubt that--Americans seem not to give much impotance to those kinds of points.<br><br>The canard that the French can't fight is so transparently a non-issue that I can't believe that people give it any credence.<br><br>France in the post-WW II period always wanted to chart its own course--it didn't join the military aspect of NATO, it didn't always follow the US lead in international initiatives, etc.: are we ticked off because the French try to be independent? Seems a bit petty to me, but I guess that's possible. If so, I wonder how France feels about our non-support in the Sinai Crisis, or in Algeria, or in . . . .<br><br>The assertions that French people are nasty is, in my personal experience, simply stupid. Granted that the woman who ran the B&B I stayed at near the Gare du Nord was a bitch--but she was a bitch because she was a nasty person, not because she was French. Everyone else I met and talked with in Paris and in the south of France was kind, considerate, friendly. Anecdotal evidence, I grant, but at least based on experience.<br><br>That they're nasty cause they don't bathe is also silly. That may have been true in the 17th or 18th century--but then no one bathed back then, and the French were no different in that regard from the English, the Italians, the Spanish, the Poles, etc., etc.<br><br>It's always possible that we hate them because they have such wonderful cheese and we don't. Or because they value art and we don't. Or because they love to sit of an afternoon at a cafe and talk, and we don't.<br><br>Me, I love France. It is one of the loveliest places I've ever been.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: France - 08/25/04 05:03 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>My question is why--and the lack of support for the Iraqui intervention is not even the beginning of a full answer.<p><hr></blockquote><p>why can't that be it? i think the vast majority of americans have no clue about much of the history between the countries and it's more of a what have you done for me lately attitide that we tend to live by. <br><br>most people hate france because of the negative attention it received in the run up to the iraq war. freedom fries . . . john kerry looks french. conservatives used france to represent everything that was wrong with the world for not jumping on our bandwagon.<br><br><br>"Tribal sovereignty means that, it's sovereign. You're a—you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And, therefore, the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." dubya 8.6.04
Posted by: JonnyCat

Re: France - 08/25/04 05:03 PM

"Boy, those French, they have a different word for everything!" - Steve Martin <br><br>[color:blue]All your sock puppets are belong to us</font color=blue>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: France - 08/25/04 05:10 PM

I'm as puzzled as you are. Their valuing art, a good cheese may be the closest you are ever going to get. Up to DeGaulle the French, and some parts of the world thought that the French language was the language of the diplomat. I think I was told that in grade school (while taking French). So they missed out on that one. Are they ticked at that? Their leadership has always seemed to go their own way and not kowtow to the USA but lots of countries do that.<br><br>I think you might have come closest with the cafe in the afternoon drinking coffee and eating cheese and talking. The French do this the best and we do this the worst. I go to France every other year and the one thing I long for is the food. The cheese. (Except goat cheese, can't stand it.) The French take virtually anything, a snail, a slug, a mold, and turn it into something amazingly tasty.<br><br>In South Carolina they serve pulled pork. I love it. I can buy a pound of it cold and eat it out of the container in the car. Every one complains it is too fatty.<br>In the Loire Valley in France they make rillete. Very close to pulled pork when cold but it is purreed and has more fat. On a piece of French bread it blows away pulled pork. I wish a French cook would come to South Carolina and show them how to make it.<br><br><br>paper cuts hurt
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: France - 08/25/04 06:30 PM

The food is to die for, no doubt--and people who eat a lot of it often do, die because of it, that is (but then, they die happy )<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: France - 08/25/04 06:49 PM

I don't know what the French do but they don't seem to be dying from eating too much of their cuisine. At least their asses are not showing it. The few times one sees a fat ass in Paris it is always attached to a mouth speaking English with an American accent. I had to go to a Walmart in SC last month. I haven't been in one in years and this thing was huge. It had everything. Including the largest accumulation of fat asses I have ever seen. I put my cart back because you couldn't get down the aisles. A real shame as these people are not doing themselves any good.<br><br>I think it is the wine. My wife and I split a bottle every night and maybe two on Saturday. Works for me. <br><br><br><br><br>paper cuts hurt
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: France - 08/25/04 06:50 PM

On a piece of French bread it blows away pulled pork.<br><br>Something very odd about that sentence...<br><br>[color:white]God speed, mikeb. Go drive your Boxster in the big Autobahn in the sky...</font color=white>
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: France - 08/25/04 06:56 PM

Red or white vino? Makes a difference in the tannin... the stuff that's good for the blood. <br><br>Although I've been there, done that, and it's real fun - beer for me most school nights, thanks! - I expect splitting a bottle with the S.O. every single night can't be too good for you over the long term.<br><br>I know, I know - but what a way to go. <br><br>(;->))<br><br>max<br>[color:red]EGG</font color=red><br>Moments & more
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: France - 08/25/04 07:02 PM

Well, now, I heard on the radio about three weeks ago that a couple of glasses of red wine are good not only for the old circulatory system, but also for the brain. Studies show that people wo drink wine are "smarter" than people who don't. And apparently the more you drink, the smarter you get. Go figure.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: France - 08/25/04 07:04 PM

Nine out of ten, red. Good for the heart. I've been doing martinis to cut back on the calories. But end up drinking both. High metabolic rate or I have double copies of the alcohol dehydrogenase gene. I dated a girl who was half Japanese, half indeterminate Hawaiian. She was short a few copies. Extremely cheap date. One shote of Wild Turkey and she was loopy. <br><br><br><br><br>paper cuts hurt
Posted by: polymerase

Re: France - 08/25/04 07:18 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Studies show that people who drink wine are "smarter" than people who don't. And apparently the more you drink, the smarter you get. Go figure. <p><hr></blockquote><p> Well there you go. Why do I put up with all you dumbasses?<br><br>paper cuts hurt
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: France - 08/25/04 07:20 PM

Well, you'll need those smarts to find yourself a new liver in a few years...<br><br>[color:white]God speed, mikeb. Go drive your Boxster in the big Autobahn in the sky...</font color=white>
Posted by: drjohn

Re: France - 08/25/04 07:24 PM

I think the phenolic compounds found in red wine, the compounds responsible for it's medicinal effects, are also found, mercifully, in chocolate. For what it's worth, I know more smart chocoholics than smart winos.<br><br>
Posted by: polymerase

Re: France - 08/25/04 07:30 PM

That is so old news.<br><br>Liver specialists meeting in Dallas heard surprising results from an animal study recently, showing that light alcohol consumption seemed to speed the recovery of damaged livers in rats.<br><br>I was giving platelets for cancer patients and they did a full work up. They made a new medical term after they checked out my liver. It was "kick ass".<br><br>paper cuts hurt
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: France - 08/25/04 07:41 PM

I wouldn't consider splitting a bottle of wine EVERY night as "light'" alcohol consumption, would you?<br><br>Or are you comparing yourself to a rat...? <br><br>[color:white]God speed, mikeb. Go drive your Boxster in the big Autobahn in the sky...</font color=white>
Posted by: Michael

Re: France - 08/25/04 08:12 PM

While my computer is out on repair I check in from time to time on someone else's computer and I don'thave the time right now to read all that has been posted in this thread, but in response the question I would say it is that there is no longer 2 major powers in the world. One (USA) dominating the western hemisphere and the other the Soviet Union dominating the eastern. There will now be "spheres" of control or domination spread around the world with the US still being the big dog. France has delusions of grandure for their sphere of influence and ultimately wants to have the power and wealth that the US has. Until they acheive their goal (which they will not) they will always be in opposition to the US. To put it in quick and simple terms.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: France - 08/25/04 08:35 PM

Suppose that is the case (let's leave aside the EU as a power in its own right, into which France, Germany, Britain, Italy, etc. etc. are subsumed). So what? Are we so insecure that we need to have everyone followign party line? I thought that's why we used to criticize the USSR.<br><br>
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: France - 08/26/04 05:57 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>There will now be "spheres" of control or domination spread around the world with the US still being the big dog. France has delusions of grandure for their sphere of influence and ultimately wants to have the power and wealth that the US has. Until they acheive their goal (which they will not) they will always be in opposition to the US. To put it in quick and simple terms.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>I see it more a case of France pining for the good old days, when She had real visions of Empire. Britain is similar in that respect, and that was truly a massive empire indeed. Still, there is a certain amount of jealousy evinced by those nations which once held the intoxicating reins of power. Nowadays, I suppose all that's left to them is the consoling truism that every dog has its day in the sun. They know the US will one day wake up and realize that it has already had its turn (hey, most nations don't even get that far! ).<br><br>But as Yo-yo indicated, France as part of the EU is another thing altogether. That is definitely a bloc with serious purchasing power and political influence. Between them and a rapidly-emerging China, I'd say the game is warming up.<br><br>max<br>[color:red]EGG</font color=red><br>Moments & more
Posted by: Michael

Re: France - 08/26/04 08:10 PM

Which is what I was saying when I said there is no longer a dominating influence in each hemisphere, but spheres of influence around the globe.<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: France - 08/26/04 08:58 PM

Surprised to hear you buy into the 'French have delusions of grandeur' rhetoric. Max. \assume conversational not confrontational tone here :-)<br><br>My experience of the French is that they don't give a d@mn. Sure, they have/had their glorious history and efforts at empire, but the country with the biggest chip on its shoulder about its place in the world is the US, AFAIC. Ironic, no?<br><br>To address yo-yo's Q, and with all the goodwill I can muster towards the US (whatever 'the US' is), I think this is just another manifestation of the 'my-way-or-the-highway' attitude. Time after time I hear defenders of US culture reach for the old 'well if it's so bad how come everyone wants to live here?' argument. Manifest Destiny, Leaders of the Free World, high watermark of civilization, greatest nation on Earth blah blah blah.<br><br>The French really stick in the craw of those who use these arguments, because if there's one thing for sure it's that most French folk wouldn't want to live in a culture like the US's in a million years!<br><br>So all this stuff about the French wanting Iraq to be a disaster, nurturing intellectualism and high culture, dismissing fast food as junk, etc etc - all to spite the US - is hilarious. Hey, USA - the world doesn't always revolve around you! LOL.<br><br>And Poly - I hear you! Last time I was in Paris, I didn't see a single lardass local and EVERY woman on the street was beautiful! (and smelled like a woman, not a cosmetics store...)<br><br>:-)<br><br>db<br><br><br><br><br>
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: France - 08/27/04 05:53 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Surprised to hear you buy into the 'French have delusions of grandeur' rhetoric. Max. \assume conversational not confrontational tone here :-) <p><hr></blockquote><p> No offense taken, deebee. I'm really just guessing here. I've never actually been to France, so you are right to take my comments with a grain of salt. I bear no animosity to the French, though - I think they're a remarkable people, actually. There's just so much post-war baggage swirling about, all these decades later... kind of clouds a lot of stuff, I think. But then again, I'm guessing you realize how much stock people can put in misconceptions.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>My experience of the French is that they don't give a d@mn. Sure, they have/had their glorious history and efforts at empire, but the country with the biggest chip on its shoulder about its place in the world is the US, AFAIC. Ironic, no?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps it is as you say, that they don't give a damn about American culture, and rightly so - they're freakin' French! As for the States and its place in the world, you may be right... although I'm sure we both know that making sweeping statements about the national character of such-such country usually will land you in hot water somewhere along the line.<br>(:->))<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>To address yo-yo's Q, and with all the goodwill I can muster towards the US (whatever 'the US' is), I think this is just another manifestation of the 'my-way-or-the-highway' attitude. Time after time I hear defenders of US culture reach for the old 'well if it's so bad how come everyone wants to live here?' argument. Manifest Destiny, Leaders of the Free World, high watermark of civilization, greatest nation on Earth blah blah blah.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with this line of thinking...<br>(;->))<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>So all this stuff about the French wanting Iraq to be a disaster, nurturing intellectualism and high culture, dismissing fast food as junk, etc etc - all to spite the US - is hilarious. Hey, USA - the world doesn't always revolve around you! LOL.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Agreed. And the French are preoccupied with their own domestic problems, not to mention calculating and recalculating their own influence in European matters, geopolitics, etc.<br><br>max<br>[color:red]EGG</font color=red><br>Moments & more