American beheaded... and for what?

Posted by: skuldugary

American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 11:18 AM

Because some prisioners were embarassed?<br><br>Any excuse these extremists can grab on to to excuse their horrific acts. And I have to say, anyone that tries to defend this act is as much of an monster as the man who held the knife. <br><br>Link<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 11:25 AM

As if al-Qaida needed much of an excuse to do ANYTHING horrific...<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: RubenC

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 11:26 AM

I just read about that also. Unbelievable the logic these extremist/terrorist use to justify their actions and veil them behind their religious beliefs. <br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 11:37 AM

and for what?<br>Is that a rhetorical question?<br>You have not been paying attention.<br><br>[i]If any question why we died,<br>...Rudyard Kipling<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by cherry on 05/11/04 02:46 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 11:46 AM

It's inflated propaganda. <br>The man who was executed was an innocent American.<br><br>Don't tell me you are actually going to build your anti-Bush platform on the death of this dead man.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 11:50 AM

OK_ it is because of sheep like you that this man,<br>and many more men, women, and children will and have, died.<br><br>Remember that each time you blind yourself.<br><br>PEACE OUT_<br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 11:50 AM

I was listening to our station driving in today .. and when I heard it, it was as if someone poured cold water over me .. Barbaric.<br><br>****************<br><br>[color:blue]I'm MattMac112, and I approve of President George W. Bush</font color=blue>
Posted by: sean

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:06 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Don't tell me you are actually going to build your anti-Bush platform on the death of this dead man.<p><hr></blockquote><p>i think dubya is building his own anti-bush platform without any help. the prison torture ordeal is going to have a very big rippling effect. and worse, the red cross said that 90% of the prisoners had done nothing wrong...just as this "innocent american" had done nothing wrong.<br><br>these are both extremely crummy and saddening stories, no doubt. <br><br>----<br>"even if we get bin Laden or Zawahiri now, it is 2 years 2 late. Al Qaeda is a very different org now. It has had time to adapt. The administration should have finished this job." Leverett, former Bush Nat’l Security Cncl staff specialist.
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:06 PM

Really? Sheep? What have you done to defeat these animals that kill children, rape women, toture men?<br><br>Do you think that by under cutting our President you're defeating terrorists? Oh, maybe we could pull the 'tail between our legs' like Spain. <br><br>"I realize now that I have been wrong. All this time I have been waiting... Waiting for what? For Indians to steal my horse? To see a buffalo? Since I arrived at this post, I have been walking on eggs. It has become a bad habit and I am sick of it.<br><br>Tomorrow morning I will ride out to the Indians. I do not know the outcome or the wisdom of this thinking. But I have become a target, and a target makes a poor impression. I am through waiting"<br><br>The problem is we have been walking on egg shells. Allowing them to run into a building and not kicking in the door and taking them down, because we're worried about bad press. Nobody seems to mind that terrorists are receiving aid and shelter. <br><br>We need to take the gloves off and go after them with using all force.<br><br>Sheep, PHU-leeeez.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:10 PM

We need to take the gloves off and go after them with using all force<br><br>Part of me agrees with that, but do you honestly think it's possible in the huggy-kissy-don't-hurt-the-terrorist's feelings world that we live in.....? <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:13 PM

Torture? That wasn't torture? Humiliation, yes. <br><br>No, I'll tell you what, we go after these animals where it hurts them. We announce that from this time forward we douse our bullest in pigs blood. Any terrorist killed will be buried with animal intestens. They aren't afraid of us because they think that they receive a reward in Heaven. Well, they'll never see it, if they believe they're too soiled.<br><br>Of course we would never do that. We have to follow rules. I seem to remember the reason we beat the British in the revolution was because they followed rules too, while we hid behind rocks and trees. <br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:21 PM

I honestly don't know. The problem is that our country is being run by hand wrigers. Teddy Rosevelt would have steamrolled over these buggers and it would be over. <br><br>These people in this country who hate Bush are so messed up it boggles my mind. They're like someone driving a bus full of kids, but instead of looking at the road they're looking over their shoulder and fussing about kids talking in the bus. <br>All of us, every American should be focused on stamping out terrorists. Not using terrorsts to undermind the President. <br><br>If we as a country fall apart it will be because of people who wail and cry about bad, mean Bush, instead of working on the real problem. <br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:22 PM

Fact is, 2 wrongs do not a right make. What has been done on both sides of the idealogical fence is flat out wrong. To Western cultures, a blood-thirsty act is barbaric and repulsive, while to Middle Eastern cultures, acts of sexuality — normal (whatever that is) or perverted are repugnant. I'm as horrified as you, but within the context of vastly different cultures, the playing field is more level than one might think. More important, keep in mind that the extremists represent a very small segment of Islam, just as the GI's running those prisons do not represent all Americans.<br><br>I would hope that these insurgents are caught and tried for their acts — just as the accused GI's should be for their's. And yeah, I think Rummy shouild resign. He screwed up big-time and shouod answer for it.<br><br>Them's my dos centavos.<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:24 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Torture? That wasn't torture? Humiliation, yes. <p><hr></blockquote><p>you are clearly not paying attention. we have already had rumsfeld and others testify that the worst is yet to come (e.g., including rape) and you feel comfy calling it mere humiliation? the <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/10/red.cross.report/index.html">red cross report</a> from early this year was already claiming torture as well. again, up to 90% of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were arrested and detained by mistake and they allege that some torture led to deaths. how often does mere humiliation lead to death?<br><br>----<br>"even if we get bin Laden or Zawahiri now, it is 2 years 2 late. Al Qaeda is a very different org now. It has had time to adapt. The administration should have finished this job." Leverett, former Bush Nat’l Security Cncl staff specialist.
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:30 PM

Demanding that Rumsfield leave is, in my opinion, so foolish. He's as removed from those soldiers, as Michael Eisner is from the popcorn vendor in Disneyland.<br><br>Do you know how many layers of authority there are between those guards and Rumsfield? Can you really expect that he's issuing personal orders to every man and woman in every branch of the military? <br>Seven soldiers out of one hundred and fifty thousand. <br><br>Democrats are doing nothing more than using this as a tool to get more power in office for their party. They don't give a flying rip about what those soldiers did. All they care about is how to further their party goals. How can we trust the future of our country when those wanting the power are nothing more than petty children?<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: squareman

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:32 PM

Ah. Thanks for putting into caring and cogent words what I couldn't get out coherently past my frustration, Steve. Well put.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:34 PM

He's as removed from those soldiers, as Michael Eisner is from the popcorn vendor in Disneyland.<br><br><br>LOL...great analogy. I agree he's pretty far removed, but at the end of the day he's the 'man' in charge of the whole mess. It's also more symbolic than anything else. End result will be that the administration will hire someone else with a similar background and principles, and nothing's really going to get solved.<br><br>Then again, I don't know what the other option is. Sensitivity training for soldiers? Now THERE's the ultimate oxymoron. <br><br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: squareman

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:35 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>we go after these animals where it hurts them.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Kettle, meet Pot. Pot, Kettle.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:39 PM

A. I'm only refering to the PROOF of what I've seen. People can report till their blue in the face. Until there is proof, it's all talk. So, when I refer to what happened, it's only what's proven.<br><br>B. Yes, I do pay attention, but I don't get suckered in by every hand wringing, chest beating political hack, like some other boobs.<br><br>Prisoners of Saddam had their hands cut off, ears cut off, they were tortured with electric drills through their heads. Can you even being to compare the treatment of prisoners between us and them? <br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:39 PM

Excuse me, but the fact is it happened under his watch — something he himself admits — and he did nothing, said nothing, and in effect sanctioned it by those lapses. Doesn't matter if he personally issued orders to each and every GI, or was buffered by more layers than grandma's lasagna. He's the man. He messed. He needs to be held accountable beyond writing "I'm sorry" 100 times on the blackboard.<br><br>Screaming "NUKE 'EM ALL" isn't the answer. I admit, I don't know what the answer is, but I know what it isn't.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:44 PM

Eh, Rumsfeld will get some cushy Fox News gig, a book deal, and retire to Florida without ever having to work again.<br><br>Gee, can I be punished that way? <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:45 PM

A. No one denies what a monster Saddam was.<br>B. That doesn't justify what was done by our guys (unless, of course, we're monsters, too).<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:46 PM

The problem with those soldiers was that they were not trained to be guards. <br>Soldiers are trained for what tasks they are given. Being a guard is not something you just give to a fighting man/woman. <br>We don't want our soldiers to be sensitive. We want them to be able to kill the enemy. That's what those gun thingys are for, right?<br>If trained military guards had been there, this wouldn't have happened.<br><br>Yes, Rumsfield is ultimatly in charge, but we would lose much more from him not being in charge than if we put some whipped, spineless person who's afraid of getting in trouble if he makes a bad decision. Then you end up with someone who never does anything and the next thing you know, your local Starbucks just blew up; your local pre-school just became a killing field. Worst case? Yes. Can it happen? Nobody thought 9-11 could have happened, until it did.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:48 PM

Remind me to laugh later. The humor in this whole mess is as obvious as the WMD were.<br><br>
Posted by: SgtBaxter

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:53 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>OK_ it is because of sheep like you that this man,<br>and many more men, women, and children will and have, died.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Interesting, so the holier than thou attitude I see constantly being imposed on everybody from a good bit of those on the left doesn't have a similar effect? Give me a break. <br><br>Remember that everytime you open your mouth and try to belittle.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:53 PM

I don't understand what you mean when you say he did nothing, said nothing. Do you know the daily details of his office? No, I don't either.<br><br>Have you ever had a situation where something happened that made you look bad. But the truth was that you weren't responsible. But you also knew that if you tried to defend yourself you'd only end up looking even more guilty because nobody would believe you?<br><br>That's what I think happened here. Instead of him trying to lay out the facts, I think Rumsfield figured he might as well just say 'sorry' and take the heat, because he wouldn't be believed.<br><br>I think in court they call that an innocent man pleading guilty to a lesser charge.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:54 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Yes, Rumsfield is ultimatly in charge, but we would lose much more from him not being in charge than if we put some whipped, spineless person who's afraid of getting in trouble if he makes a bad decision<p><hr></blockquote><p>Agreed. The answer is to put someone of strength, integrity and dignity into this job. Not someone "whipped" anymore than someone with a dangerous and egocentric agenda.<br><br>Now stop waving that carbine around before you shoot your dang self. <br><br>
Posted by: JohnR

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 12:56 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The problem with those soldiers was that they were not trained to be guards. <br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br>No, they weren't....but they were humans. Are you trained to be a prison guard? No? Would you do what they did or what was reported? I surely hope not. <br><br>Like I said in another thread, Rumsfield should not have to resign or be fired for it. Where is the personal responsibility in this?? There it is in the UCMJ: Do not follow unlawful orders. Bring those soldiers here, make it a public trial, and put them in prison. Make it public!!<br><br>While the beheading of this guy was deplorable and hopefully they catch those responsible, our actions in that prison was just as horrible to the Islamic community. We will pay for the actions of those few for years to come, unfortunately, unless we make a clear example out of those soldiers.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: JohnR

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 01:02 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>and for what?<br>Is that a rhetorical question?<br>You have not been paying attention.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br>like someone else said...2 wrongs don't make a right.<br><br>Where were these people when Saddam was in power? Where were the protests/revenge killings when his sons did it to whomever they wanted to?<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 01:05 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Democrats are doing nothing more than using this as a tool to get more power in office for their party<p><hr></blockquote><p>there are high level republicans in congress who think rummy should go as well. and, i am a democrat and agree with democratic senator carl levin when he says that rummy should not go, but he says it more eloquently than i can (but, the point is that i don't think he should go just as a high ranking democrat doesn't):<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>If I thought his resignation would result in the changes that are necessary in underlying policies, I would very much favor that. But I don't think the underlying policies... and there has been too much... too many errors, too much mismanagement of this war, I don't see that changing with a change in the leadership in the Defense Department...But from my perspective, it's the underlying policies which are the issue at this point.<p><hr></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june04/hearing_5-7.html">link to PBS newshour</a><br><br>----<br>"even if we get bin Laden or Zawahiri now, it is 2 years 2 late. Al Qaeda is a very different org now. It has had time to adapt. The administration should have finished this job." Leverett, former Bush Nat’l Security Cncl staff specialist.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 01:09 PM

Sorry. I can't buy that analogy. If your integrity is taken for granted — if that's how you are known — there's no reason or excuse to "plead to a lesser charge".<br><br>I have been in situations where someone has compromised my reputation. If they were under my supervision when they screwed up, it was my responsibility — period. If they were not under my supervision — if they screwed up on their own and pointed at me just to save their own @ss, I've had no problem denying responsibility. And I've never been doubted.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 01:16 PM

It wouldn't matter if we dismembered those soldiers in a field with all the cameras of the world watching. <br>These terrorists don't care. They're looking for any execuse to kill and destroy. If we don't give them one, they make it up. <br>"Oh look! Those terrible Americans just bombed a milk factory." Never mind that they used prisioners to stand outside targets to act as a human shield. Would that have stopped them? Heck no! <br><br>Where was the outrage in the Arab countries when those Americans were slaughtered, burned, dragged through the streets being kicked and spit on, and ultimitly having their bodies hung from a bridge? What did they do to bring those killers to justice, to serve as an example?<br>They didn't. They didn't because they were giving us an example. An example that they don't care. That they approve of what happened. <br><br>Ask me if I care that they look at the treatment of those prisoners on the same level of the brutal killing of that kid. I don't. I don't care what the enemy thinks. <br><br>What, you think the victims of these captured creeps are upset with what's happening to them? Not a chance.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 01:19 PM

"they were under my supervision when they screwed up, it was my responsibility — period."<br><br>Did you quit? <br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 01:30 PM

I offered to.<br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 01:58 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>He's as removed from those soldiers, as Michael Eisner is from the popcorn vendor in Disneyland.<p><hr></blockquote><p>LOL. Its a good thing Rumsfeld doesn't have a job as important as say, an NFL head coach? Because if he did he would have already been fired. It doesn't matter if he directly ordered these tortures, rapes (and even deaths have been reported), the buck stops with the man in charge.<br><br>
Posted by: Mactico

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 02:01 PM

HIJOS DE PUTAS<br><br><br><br>Justice is like the serpent, only bites the barefoot.
Posted by: SacredBovine

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 05:59 PM

Hey, Tallscott? 'Zat you? From MacCentral Forums?<br><br>Moo?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 07:48 PM

Tell ya, like I said many times before -- America has no concept of what they are dealing with in that part of the world. Should have never stuck our noses in there because this is just the beginning. Shocking, but definitely doesn't surprise me too much knowing how fanatical these people are. <br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 08:10 PM

Look Skul, you stupid dumbass. Aside from the photos of humiliation and torture there were also murders and rape in the prison run by the Americans now. So don't get all incensed about these fanatics taking off the head of this poor guy. We seem to be doing some pretty evil and nasty things ourselves. Sorry to call you that name, but in this case, if the shoe fits......<br><br>Yeah, yeah.....I know calling someone a stupid dumbass is dumb, but sometimes I get a little bit like a dumbass myself when I am confronted with dumberer than dumb. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 09:36 PM

You know, Mike, you're opinion is as qualified as anyone elses. That you have to insult me is disappointing. <br><br>I don't have anything else to say to you.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/11/04 11:07 PM

I made it fair, I also insulted myself for added measure. I'm a dumbass too. <br><br><br><br>You always bring things up, but you never seem to provide solutions. Easy to bitch and moan, harder to think about root causes and why things are the way they are. <br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 07:02 AM

You always bring things up, but you never seem to provide solutions<br><br>Hey, isn't that a liberal's job? <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: alAnonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 07:20 AM

All I'm saying is...<br><br>- Nick Berg was arrested by the US while in Iraq (for?!?!)<br>- After his arrest, the parents couldn't reach him. The government (who arrested him) couldn't put them in contact.<br>- Berg shows up on camera in an ORANGE PRISON JUMPSUIT, like the one's found in Guantanamo.<br>- Berg seems awfully damn relaxed up until the last minute.<br>- The video clip features guys in hoods, but explicitly names the executioner?!?<br>- The video clip features some odd edit jumps just at the time of the execution. The guy who draws the knife and begins the killing wears a dark hood, then there is an edit jump (shown in the timecode), and then the guy doing the deed is wearing a white hood.<br>- This video conveniently appears at a time when a scandal has seriously damaged the credibility of the war.<br>- It makes no sense that the "terrorists" would give up the equity found in our own damaging behavior.<br>- So who benefits from this death?<br><br><br><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>[color:blue]NOTE: This Avatar Has Been Changed To Protect A Sponge On The Verge</font color=blue>
Posted by: Morom

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 08:40 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Nick Berg was arrested by the US while in Iraq (for?!?!)<br>- After his arrest, the parents couldn't reach him. The government (who arrested him) couldn't put them in contact.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I believe he was arrested because at first the US goverment couldn't verify that he was in Iraq legally (He was actually there repairing and cleaning communications towers). While he was being held, his familiy was not able to get ahold of him at all. Then he was on his way to getting back to the states when he went missing/was abducted.<br><br>As for the orange jumpsuit, I would doubt that it's difficult to get your hands on any number of those.<br><br>----<br>Stupidity is like nuclear power. It can be used for good or evil.... and you don't want to get any on you.
Posted by: alAnonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 12:01 PM

Re: Orange Jumpsuit<br>Yeah, but it doesn't appear to be typical M.O. <br><br>Look at Daniel Pearl. Did they dress him up in an orange jumpsuit? <br><br>If somebody is detained by the U.S., you get the jumpsuit. Currently, the US is *completely* denying his detention, but it's on record that his parents sued the U.S. for his release...and he was released. So my curiousity is this...<br><br>- Why does the US Government deny he was detained, when the parents officially sued for, and gained, his release?<br><br>- Why does he show up in the video, dressed in the standard *U.S.* prisoner uniform? Does this somehow indicate just how quickly he went from detained by the US to caught by Extremists?<br><br>Seems like there's more to this story. Not that I propose to know what it is, but if you get past the shock and horror of the video... some stuff just doesn't add up. The several disconnects along with the timing nags at me.<br><br>Article: Berg Had Been Detained By The U.S.<br><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>[color:blue]NOTE: This Avatar Has Been Changed To Protect A Sponge On The Verge</font color=blue>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 01:32 PM

What are you trying to say?<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: alAnonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 04:14 PM

I thought I was pretty succinct up above...but if you aren't being rhetorical, here goes:<br><br>I'm considering the full chain of events that led to this sad eff'd up event and it doesn't make sense:<br><br>Before the execution, the guy was detained by the U.S. while he was in Iraq. But the U.S. denies detaining him, saying it was Iraqi Police who detained him. Keep in mind...who are the "Iraqi Police"?...well, WE are.<br><br>Regardless, his parents (as a matter of verifiable record) sued the U.S. Government for his release, and he WAS released. If he wasn't being detained by the U.S. Government, then how would suing the Govt. for his release result in him being released? It wouldn't. So this proves he was detained by the U.S. government. So how can they deny detaining him?<br><br>The orange jumpsuit likely originated from him being detained by the U.S.(which DID happen), and he's shown in the execution video wearing the jumpsuit. <br><br>Consider it as a timeline...isn't it weird that he'd go so quickly from being detained/released by the U.S. Government, and then getting picked up as hostage? So quickly that he didn't have a chance to get out of the jumpsuit before being abducted?!<br><br>Isn't it weird that the video states the name of the person responsible for the execution (presumably present) but everybody still wears hoods??? If you're going to say "I did this" then why wear a disguise?!?<br><br>Isn't it weird that there are so many bad edits in the clip and the guy who starts the execution ISN'T the guy finishing the job, after one of the bad edits interrupts that exact moment of the clip?<br><br>The prison abuse scandal made our government/troops look like the bad guys. Why would the extremists do something that would undermine that piece of political/propganda equity? <br><br>Al Qaeda may be extremists...but they've also shown they are methodical, patient, strategic, killers. It doesn't seem like they would stand to benefit from this killing in a way that matters to them. The prison scandal was like a freebie to them...so why squander it? It makes me question *who* is behind the hoods.<br><br>Finally, considering that last paragraph...if the extremists don't benefit from this killing...who does? In a sick eff'd up way..our government DOES. The prison abuse scandal now has a balance.<br><br><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>[color:blue]NOTE: This Avatar Has Been Changed To Protect A Sponge On The Verge</font color=blue>
Posted by: SlapLeather

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 04:31 PM

It is not an execution, It is murder.<br><br>got to let your eyes adjust<br>
Posted by: alAnonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 04:50 PM

And they aren't "insurgents" or "terrorists"...they're the locals resisting us. Some (not me) would call them "rebels", or...god here goes..."patriots". <br><br>(ducks and runs)<br><br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>[color:blue]NOTE: This Avatar Has Been Changed To Protect A Sponge On The Verge</font color=blue>
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 04:57 PM

Pretty good conspiracy theory, I'm intrigued.<br><br>You better watch out look out for helicopters and guys in suits, Al. <br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 05:20 PM

Too many Tom Clancy books.<br><br>
Posted by: G4Dualie

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 05:31 PM

It is now being alleged that the masked men attempted to negotiate a trade between the insurgents and the officials at Abu Ghraib. They said if the US would release some of the prison detainees they would release Berg. <br><br>Mmmmmh.<br><br>If this story proves to be true then all I can say is this is an indictment on the Office of the Secretary of State for failing Berg.<br><br>Although I have empathy for Berg's family, it begs to question: Is the allure of money so great that individuals would jeopardize their lives and subject their families and loved ones to this kind of abuse? <br><br>What the f*ck was Berg doing in Iraq? I can understand how independent contractors would and could operate below the radar and would receive passport and visa endorsements from the state department, permitting travel in and out of Iraq, but I'll bet not before signing a release form, absolving the state department of any future incriminations.<br><br>I am sorry but any civillian who knowingly goes to Iraq who isn't working with, and under the protection of the US government is a fool.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue] “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel,” Samuel Johnson</font color=blue>
Posted by: cesrivas

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 08:00 PM

how would you feel if you were in the place of those Iraqis prisioners? and someome by force you in some sexual positions with other mens with out your approval? ....Why the pictures and videos of iraqis prisoners in sexual positions where the MP make fun of them? just because in that moment the US soldiers had the power and the iraqis not... This is not a excuse of the murder of a human being. I totally reject the murder of inocent people but I also reject the abuse and making fun of POWs!!!!<br><br>I think what this world needs is TOLERANCE... tolerance is the key for achiving peace. And TOLERANCE is needed in huge amounts!! <br><br>this is my last reply to one of your posts, because I think that your posts do not add nothing to this forum. I think HATE is not the solution. Personally, I have being reading a lot to overcome hate and be more open to others. I recommend you the same... Also, I recommened you the Movie " American History X" and as a qoute for that movie "Life is too short to be pissed all the time. " by Daniel "Danny" Vinyard.<br><br> I prefer to watch differente channels of news, like bbc or other news channels to be informed and do not read your posts. <br><br>Also, I will continue to make simple and no-important posts or if you like to call them stupid posts in this forum, because I enjoy it and I have fun<br><br>%-) <--- me?
Posted by: nutty

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 08:11 PM

American History X is one my all time favorite hard to watch movies.<br><br>Ed Norton was brilliant in it<br><br>link<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 08:17 PM

I for one welcome your posts, which are often very informative and sometimes very funny.<br><br>And I agree with your idea--tolerating, or even better, welcoming others is the only solution to the problems of this world.<br><br>And I also agree that two wrongs do not make a right.<br><br>So keep on posting!<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 08:30 PM

You're not the first person to suggest that.<br><br>~Who indeed would have benefitted from the deed.~<br><br>It will bare watching...<br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 09:05 PM

Say what you want. Post what you want. I don't care. If you're over coming anger, good for you. You win a cookie. <br>I don't lose sleep if you add to a thread or not. But you have a pretty high opinion of yourself, that's clear. In the same breath you make a value judgment saying that my posts don't add anything to the forum, then turn around and say the you will continue to make "simple and no-important posts". Make up your mind. Yeah, my posts don't add anything to the forum. That's why this one has over 400 views and 55 replies. <br><br>You want to talk about the topic, knock yourself out. You want to talk about me, put a sock in your pie hole. <br><br>I've noticed that there are two kinds of people on this forum. Some accept the opinions of others and voice their views without feeling the urge to change everyone else's mind. Then there are those who spout tolerance in a never ending spew and the moment they meet someone that doesn't agree with them, all that tolerance talk suddenly goes out the window and they spit insults, tell you everything that's wrong with you, and why they dislike or hate you. <br><br>Unlike these two faced people, I'm honest about what I say. I can respect that someone disagrees with me. You don't see me calling them a dumb ass.<br><br>What prompted you to post your self important views about the value of what I have to say is a mystery to me. I don't even remember saying anything about you being 'stupid'. <br><br>But I've had a very long day, and you got me on a day when I just don't feel like putting up with you. So, go back to your BBC, your books and moves. You bore me.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 09:27 PM

Consult Gizmo's signature for lengths of things. Or just go here for proof of the same thing.<br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 10:12 PM

Exactly. My threads tend to be the most important and interesting, yet they receive only very little attention. <br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 10:21 PM

Ya otta be thankful you gets any at all! <br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 10:24 PM

Reminds me of the song that has the lines in it:<br><br>"Who are the terrorists, who are the heroes, double standard...."<br><br>From a reggae song by MackaB.<br><br>Depends which side of the fence you are on obviously. <br><br>Your post was quite interesting though, thanks for pointing out the oddities surrounding the video tape of that. I haven't seen it and don't want to. I can't say I know what to think about all of that in light of what you posted. But, I do know that in times of war and such, there is a lot of DISINFORMATION being produced. So it is not beyond the realm of possibility that it is a staged and fabricated event. I am not saying it is, just giving the idea equal time so to speak. <br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 11:07 PM

Just a little update on the US "torture".<br>Here's Sean's rape photos...<br>http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38464<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/12/04 11:19 PM

I can't find any photos posted by Sean nor anything about them on the Boston Globe website, which they refer to?<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 02:21 AM

skul, you're defending a lost case.<br><br>in the middle east the latest scandal of the humiliations is another proof that a secular, democratic society is not working. the secular dictator Saddam did the same thing that the democratic Bush is doing in the same prison. the solution is obvious. only an islamic state with strong islamic values is the system that doesn't allow such things to happen. the option Bush layed out for the middle east is not an option anymore. Bush have lost even the small minority that has supported or at least didn't disapprove his vision of a democratic middle east.<br><br>the damage that has been done to the american image in the last 3-4 years is tremendous. extremist islamism are on the rise like never before. the world is a more dangerous place for the average citizen, because of the US and because of the anti-US groups. Bush stirred up something that should've been dealt with in a comletely different manner.<br><br>the current administration has obviosly failed. if the US didn't have such a strong foundation, the country would have already fallen into pieces. if you guys reelect the same bunch the bloody end of the great times of the US will begin.<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 03:31 AM

Skul, you seriously need to chill. Harboring anger is no good for you. Defending it is worse. Not that we shouldn't all be outraged, but you're taking it to a personal level and getting farther and farther from reason. What happened to Berg is unconscionable. And so is what the U.S. admin has allowed to happen in Iraq. The situation has gone from bad to worse, and over-reaction is not the way to quell the unrest and hatred.<br><br>I love and support my country, but right now, I'm appalled and embarrassed by what we've done — even if the specific actions are those of a handful of ill-advised buck privates. <br><br>Step back and take a long hard look at the big picture. It took me a while to do it, and I didn't like what I saw. But now, we all have to seek ways to end this mess like rational human beings, not hate-filled moral commandos.<br><br>Take a deep breath. Step back and look at this mess objectively, then think a/b a more positive way to channel your energy.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 03:44 AM

Steve you got the right idea<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 05:42 AM

Very well said Ivan. I couldn't agree more. The previous president Bush, Sr., knew that this was a hornet's nest and had enough sense to NOT disturb it. All the present president Bush has done is to create an incubator for radical Islamists and we are going to pay for it dearly for years to come. As much as we have the ideal of democracy in our heads for that part of the world, it ain't gonna work there especially with the way we are trying to promote it. Heaven only knows what other techniques are being employed on these Iraqi prisoners. Let's all remember, we are talking lots of CIA involvement here and they can be just as brutal and nasty as anything Saddam could come up with. That's their modus operandi and if you think it is otherwise, then you are just living an illusion. <br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 06:24 AM

Should we hand it over to Israel? It's not important to me that we put an American flag in there. All I care about is that when we leave, we don't have to look over our shoulders, wondering when the next 9-11 happens.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 06:38 AM

Thanks for the reality check. As I said, it had been a very long day. <br><br>As for taking things on "a personal level", once, just once Steve I'd like to be able to post my opinion have be personally attacked. I know it's a lot to expect when dealing with people who have the maturity level of a child. <br><br>Over all the quality of this forum has nose dived. When things got really hot and there were raging political posts, I was one of those blowing steam. By the same token, when we all agreed that things were getting out of hand, most of us, including me, calmed down. There were a couple of people who I especially mended fences with. When Stan did some house cleaning, I thought the personal attacks and slurs would be a thing of the past. I was wrong. There is still an element here that needs to go.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: iraszl

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 06:59 AM

element here that needs to go?<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 07:20 AM

Since my post was linked to one of Sean's posts when viewed in thread mode you'd be advised to read that post for some context. After reading it you'll note I've jumped to a small conclusion that Sean's charge that we'd be hearing of Americans raping prisoners (since he never sourced the accusation) was related to my linked World Net Daily story.<br><br>Also do you find it unusual that the Boston Globe has purged its web site of any reference to its botched, unconfirmed story that has now been proven a hoax?<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: JohnR

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 07:21 AM

I say magnesium...I have always hated that "milk" they get from it! <br><br><br><br><br><br> <br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:08 AM

i have only read your response to me thus far this morning, so forgive me if i overlap, but i don't think i mentioned rape photos that are currently available to the public (and, i didn't visit your link, but i assume that you are linking to the porn photos that have nothing to do with this conflict). i was only referring to the words of donald rumsfeld who said that the worst is yet to come and that the worst does include rape. i heard that congress saw photos of iraqi male prisoners being forced to have sex with one another. that is also included in the definition of rape. that is also despicable. <br><br>----<br>"even if we get bin Laden or Zawahiri now, it is 2 years 2 late. Al Qaeda is a very different org now. It has had time to adapt. The administration should have finished this job." Leverett, former Bush Nat’l Security Cncl staff specialist.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:20 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>just once Steve I'd like to be able to post my opinion have be personally attacked.<p><hr></blockquote><p>No matter what you have to say on any given topic, there will be someone with an opposing POV. Some will express it appropriately, and some won't or can't. I've learned that it's only a personal attack if you take it seriously. When you make like a duck and let it roll off your back, it's just so much noise. The best way to diffuse it is to ignore it. If someone is being a real jerk, they'll prove it all by themselves.<br><br>
Posted by: nutty

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:33 AM

Photos show dead Iraqis, torture and rape<br><br>this is not the fake Pr0n site, sorry to say it is real and this goes all the way to the top.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:35 AM

<embed src="http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Birds/Duck01.wav" width=320 height=25 controller=true autoplay=false type="video/quicktime"><br><br>It's so you, Steve <br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:52 AM

Good post, Cesar. Your words are accurate.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:59 AM

nutty, this guy is either a faint hearted individual or the material must really be over the top. <br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:10 AM

A headline does not make the story. No where in the story does it talk about rape.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:13 AM

I have heard nor read any such thing. None of the comments from congress that I have read mention rape. I do not recall Rumsfield mentioning rape (he could have I just don't recall).<br><br>Everything I've heard is "sexual abuse" which covers a lot of ground.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:14 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>What have you done to defeat these animals that kill children, rape women, torture men?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Which "animals" are we speaking of? Human beings, right? And from which nations? Because I see killing, rape and torture coming from ALL sides. <br><br>What do I do? I take the side that does not condone this type of behavior.<br>[color:red]DEFEAT</font color=red>? No. I give my support to organizations that promote support. The only people who will be defeated are children—all children, in the US and abroad, my children/your children. I teach mine not to hate, that people living on foreign soils are NOT inherently enemies. Perhaps if we make it that far, the next generations can change this self-defeating cycle. "an eye for an eye" NO. I volunteer with this group http://www.theirc.org/. Internationally they have a lot of great programs, for example Better Safer World. Other ways regular, busy/working class people can make a difference:<br><br>http://www.amnesty.org/actnow/<br><br>http://hrw.org/<br><br>http://www.workingforchange.com<br><br>http://www.volunteermatch.org/<br><br>And, yes, part of my personal agenda is spreading the word that the current administration in the white house needs to go—before we all die because of their actions.<br><br>I read this earlier from MacCentral:<br>If you read nothing else today, read THIS.<br>http://www.livejournal.com/users/throwingstardna/515980.html<br><br>I do not imagine you will read it, or if you do, that you can comprehend it.<br><br>There is a large world outside of middle class white suburban america, you should check it out sometime. You might learn something.<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:15 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Everything I've heard is "sexual abuse" which covers a lot of ground.<p><hr></blockquote><p>And that is ok?<br><br>
Posted by: nutty

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:17 AM

"Graphic new photographs and videotape of the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison including images of dead Iraqis, prisoners being brutalised, tortured and forced to have sex, and female detainees being forced to expose their breasts have stunned members of Congress who saw them in a secure briefing room on Capitol Hill."<br><br><br>sexual abuse is not rape? ok, so i guess actionable items does not equal a plan in your world either?<br>another link<br>"Lawmakers said on Wednesday images showed inmates apparently being coerced to commit sodomy, wounds possibly from dog bites, a number of dead bodies, and examples of "sadistic torture" and "sexual humiliation.""<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:18 AM

Let's not forget that even things like homosexuality and even nudity is greatly offensive to the Islamic culture, so just to walk these prisoners naked around their cells could be considered to be 'abuse'...<br><br><br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:20 AM

Just did a search of Rumsfeld's Armed Services testomony and the word "rape" is not in the transcript.<br><br>Now, Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina did tell the press before seeing the additional photos that they would contain evidence of murder and rape but now that senators have view them I see no such mention of either murder or rape.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: nutty

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:25 AM

again:<br><br>"Lawmakers said on Wednesday images showed inmates apparently being coerced to commit sodomy, wounds possibly from dog bites, a number of dead bodies, and examples of "sadistic torture" and "sexual humiliation.""<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:28 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I do not imagine you will read it, or if you do, that you can comprehend it.<br>There is a large world outside of middle class white suburban america, you should check it out sometime. You might learn something.<p><hr></blockquote><p>There is is again, that smug I'm soooo superior to everyone attitude. No one that disagrees with you could possible have a brain. I'm sooo worldy and your soooo dumb.<br><br>It's statements like these that truly reveal a persons true intellect.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:30 AM

No, it's not OK but it's also not rape.<br><br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:32 AM

From that EXACT link in your post...<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Lawmakers said they did not see examples of outright rape, murder or abuses of children.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Also...<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>sexual abuse is not rape?<p><hr></blockquote><p>No, its not. Rape is a violent form of sexual abuse but the contrary is not true.<br><br><br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: nutty

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:35 AM

so i just stuck a broomstick up your arse but in a NICE way that wouldnt be rape?<br><br><br>geez<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:37 AM

I am speaking to the racism that is being spewed all around this place.<br><br>People are people. If one fails to see that, then yes they are ignorant.<br><br>As Celandine said awhile ago:<br>"I'm not running for the office of pope, or to be Mother Theresa II.<br>I'm free to like & dislike whomever I please"<br><br>As you are free to take my comments or leave them.<br>I am just a person too, I get angry when I read this hate—<br>just posting my reactions.<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:39 AM

Hey Nutty—What do you say, let's split! This is going NOWHERE!<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:41 AM

Giving up the fight, eh? C'mon, what kind of liberal are you?!! <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:42 AM

No, not giving up the fight, just letting a few individuals go on their miserable way…<br><br>
Posted by: nutty

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:48 AM

cool, i just got the Pixies dvd! the documentary is amazing.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:50 AM

Very cool! I think I will order it this weekend. Are you going to see them play?<br>They are going to be in New Orleans on my birthday—that sounds like a dream!<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:53 AM

Again (not really becuase I haven't made the point).<br><br>Do you actually analyze any thing you read?<br><br>"apparently being coerced to commit sodomy".<br>Seriously, what does this mean?<br>"Apparently"? Were they or weren't they being coerced to commit sodomy. That's my point, you don't know. Even the people that have actually seen the photo's don't know. That is why we INVESTIGATE this stuff. But the majority of you people seem to have the need to believe all this stuff is 100% true. In fact I'd go so far as to say you don't even doubt that it is true.<br><br>This quote is a bunch of unspecific charges that, if true, are very serious but we really don't know anything. I guess the difference is that I really think people are innocent until proven guilty. Looks like most of you don't.<br><br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: sean

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:56 AM

"forced sexual acts" is rape.<br><br><a href="http://www.iht.com/articles/519772.html">link</a> <br><br>and, if it isn't...is forcing a person to have sex with a corpse okay?<br><br>----<br>"even if we get bin Laden or Zawahiri now, it is 2 years 2 late. Al Qaeda is a very different org now. It has had time to adapt. The administration should have finished this job." Leverett, former Bush Nat’l Security Cncl staff specialist.
Posted by: JohnR

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:58 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>This quote is a bunch of unspecific charges that, if true, are very serious but we really don't know anything. I guess the difference is that really think people are innocent until proven guilty<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>That's very true.<br><br>But I think rape falls under sexual abuse. It's a type of abuse.<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:59 AM

Typical, when confronted with a well thought out opposing point of view they resort to either name calling or the "I'm so superior and above you that you no long deserve to hear my thoughts. You see, your so stupid you couldn't possibly comprehend my obviously correct point of view. So, I'll no longer continue to talk because, "What's the point?"."<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: JohnR

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:00 AM

That sounds exactly what Windows users say to us! <br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:01 AM

Who was talking about "forced sexual acts"? The phrase I was asked about was "sexual abuse".<br><br>Sean, I know you to know basic logic.<br><br>"All A is B" does not infer that "All B is A".<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>is forcing a person to have sex with a corpse okay?<p><hr></blockquote><p>No.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:10 AM

"forced sexual acts".<br><br>Again you are taking a reporters intrepretation of a lawmakers description of photos shown without context or any contextual commentary as 100% truth.<br><br>This is not the way rational people think. Rational people look at the seriousness of the charge coupled with the relevent evidence and begin a serious investigation and wait for the results.<br>I know you think these things are true for whatever reason but let's have cool heads and wait for it to be properly investigated.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:12 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>But I think rape falls under sexual abuse. It's a type of abuse.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I do to and have previously state as much.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:13 AM

Except I haven't found a windows user yet that has had a "well thought-out opinion" <br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:28 AM

Seriously "What's the point?"<br><br>I pointed that statement at Nutty because I saw a continuos ping-pong match happening. Why are you arguing over small details and terminology? I will never understand your reasoning.<br><br>Here is a good quote I read earlier:<br>"The Americans killed hundreds in F...n and on."<br><br>That is exactly it! You will *most likely* complain bout the source, author, me what ever… so essentially it becomes pointless. There is nothing that you, or anyone else, will ever say that makes sense of blatant Human Rights Abuse:<br>Amnesty International believes that the ...ghts standards.<br><br>That is where I stand.<br><br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:32 AM

No, I'll just dispute a point don't agree with like I always do. I find that more effective than name calling or putting on a veil of superiority.<br>The cycle of violence will be broken when the war is won.<br><br>And where was I defending human rights abuses?<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: nutty

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:54 AM

<br><br><br>ahh we won the war may 1 2003....<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:55 AM

Banner says "Mission Accomplished" not "War Over".<br>Big difference.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 11:26 AM

Oh Cherry, I had real hope for you. I mean, you almost, almost made it through your entire post without a personal attack, but you just couldn't do it. It was beyond your ability to keep your post civil. What a shame. I was this close to looking at your links, but then I realized that your insulting threads are, no doubt, formed by the kind of things you seep yourself in. And going to those links will just be more IN-tolerance for anyone with a differing opinion.<br><br>Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane!<br>No! It's Cherry's credibility flying away!<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 11:33 AM

Get used to it Ten. This is what you'll get from these typical extremists. There's no room for you in there world if you don't see exactly the same they do.<br><br>You find the same kind of people in history that killed entire populations because they didn't believe in the same God they did. The only difference here is that she's not in a position of power. The scary thing is, she supports and promotes others in power that would do exactly that if they were given the chance.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 11:35 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Banner says "Mission Accomplished" not "War Over".<br>Big difference.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I guess thats kind of like how a broomstick up the @ss is a "big difference" from rape? We really need to get our vocabulary straight here. <br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: Huh? - 05/13/04 11:47 AM

My "credibility flying away"? I thought you started all of this because you are such a great patriot! You felt super strongly about injustices being committed against "innocent americans" by "animals"…<br><br>Oh wait… whom I am replying to:<br>skuldugary/skullduggery n : Crafty deception or trickery or an instance of it.<br>n : verbal misrepresentation intended to take advantage of you in some way<br>-dictionary.reference.com<br>AKA<br><br><br>Good Show!<br><br>If you really did care about what happened to Nick Berg, you would probably what to hear what AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL has to say about it. Because crying about it hear is not going to stop it from happening again. Nor will the trials, or the rich men in suits.<br><br>I don't care what you think of me! But I am going to respond accordingly to the bigoted hate that you post. It is a public forum, it is not all about you. Others will read what I post, hopefully some of them will read the links. I call you blind, you cry "personal attack!" and cover you eyes! <br><br>PeaceOut!<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 11:53 AM

she?<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You find the same kind of people in history that killed entire populations because they didn't believe in the same God they did. The only difference here is that she's not in a position of power. The scary thing is, she supports and promotes others in power that would do exactly that if they were given the chance.<p><hr></blockquote><p>WOW! That's rational thinking… <br>WHAT?<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 12:02 PM

No need for name calling through PM's, 'Cheery'... <br><br>If you wanted me to delete my post, I would have gladly done so if you had asked nicely...<br><br><br><br>I wiped it out anyway, just because I'm that kind of guy.<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? *DELETED* *DELETED* - 05/13/04 12:16 PM

Post deleted by cherry
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 12:20 PM

I find it laughable that after ALL the names that have gone back and forth between you and about 5 different people on this board, that MY post put you over the edge...<br><br>Have fun wherever you land...<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 12:24 PM

WHAT!?<br><br>First to the broomstick thing you have brought up twice? What is your point? I haven't seen any accusations of an Iraqi prisoner being sodimized with a broomstick. And if such a thing did happen then those who did it and those who knew it was happening and allowed it to happen should be locked up.<br><br>Second, I am correct that "Mission Accomplished" is a far different statement than "War Over". The war is not over and not one person has ever claimed that it was.<br>Just because you feel it's true because you march lock-step with the view of those out to defeat Bush in the next election does not make it any closer to truth.<br>In fact here's a couple of quotes from the speech the President gave that very day the picture was taken...<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11th, 2001 and still goes on. <p><hr></blockquote><p><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> The war on terror is not over, yet it is not endless. We do not know the day of final victory, but we have seen the turning of the tide. <p><hr></blockquote><p>Dean Davis
Posted by: MacGizmo

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 12:40 PM

This isn't directed at you John, just the topic in general:<br><br>What the fsck has happened to this place that we're sitting around here debating about whether or not sexual abuse is considered rape???<br><br>WHAT THE FSCK DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE???<br><br>The people were mistreated/abused/raped/tortured or whatever we/you/they want to call it. This discussion has lowered itself to the point where it *almost* seems as though some people are trying to somehow condone what's happened just because a penis wasn't thrust into an anus!<br><br>Gimme a freakin break already...<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 01:21 PM

I'm sorry, I thought you were female. I seem to remember others referencing you as 'she' or 'her'. <br><br>My reference to your gender was not intended as a slight.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: JohnR

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 01:27 PM

Dang it...I missed it!! <br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: Huh? - 05/13/04 01:35 PM

Your credibility, or lack of same stems from your two faced approach. You can't stand it when anyone doesn't follow, lock step, with what you believe. Really, do I have to draw you a map?<br><br>If you post something here, you're making a 'statement' and trying to 'enlighten us'. If I post something, I'm "crying about it."<br><br>Honestly, do you not see how silly you are?<br><br>Now I'm a bigot? Oh, because I use the expression 'animals' when I talking about the people who cut someones head off? Let me see, what's worse, oral sex or having my head cut off? Hmmmm, gee that's a real poser. <br><br>Tell me, while you're ranting and all, what's wrong with being "middle class white suburban america". You sound like you'd prefer this country turned to communism. Are you a Socialist? You sound a lot like one.<br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 01:50 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>WHAT!?<br><br>First to the broomstick thing you have brought up twice? What is your point?<p><hr></blockquote><p>I haven't brought up the broomstick thing twice, just once, and my point was that "rape" and severe sexual abuse are very similar. Along the same line, saying "mission accomplished" in a speech to the active military in Iraq would cause one to believe the fighting is over.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 02:01 PM

This is an open question to everyone here, not specificly you.<br><br>You have a member of a group sworn to kill as many people by what ever means they can. Old, young, men, woman, kids... This prisoner is responsible for horrible acts. You've seen the slaughter, the devistated families, the kids with no parents, all of it. It's up to you to stop the killing by getting information out of this prisoner. <br>What would you do? How far would you go to save a life? ten lives? How far would you have gone if you knew you could have prevented 9-11? <br>I will forever have an image in my mind that shakes me to my soul. It's a woman jumping from the tower. Who was she? Who loved her? Who did she leave behind? Did she think about her loved ones during that long fall?<br><br>What would I do to stop that? How far would I go? I honestly can't say. We all have a line we can not cross. Would I humiliate the prisinor? In a heart beat. Would I inflict pain? That's a hard one, but.... if I could stop that woman from flinging herself off the top of that building.... <br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 02:04 PM

If in your comment,<br><br>"The cycle of violence will be broken when the war is won."<br><br>you were referring to the "War on Terror" (as opposed to the narrower war currently being fought in Iraq), then I would submit the cycle of violence will never be broken, as a war against a concept cannot be won ...<br><br>***matt<br><br>Turn up the signal, wipe out the noise ...
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 02:10 PM

Unbelieveable. You do read your own posts, right?<br>Brought up twice:<br>1) A single post posing a question to me. I did not answer that post.<br>2) Making a silly comparison between the difference of "Mission Accomplished" and "War" over.<br><br>It seems as if you'd like to have your politics in sound bytes, spoon fed to you so you wouldn't really have to think or analyize what is being said. But how about you go read the speech on "Mission Acocmpished" day instead of assuming that the entire speech is summarized by those words?<br><br>"Hey Dean, why don't you awswer your own question?"<br>Ok, I will.<br><br>You won't read the speech because it immediatly contradicts your false assertion that Mission Accomplished = War Over as evidenced by my two previous quotes whose meaning, of course, remains undisputed.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Along the same line, saying "mission accomplished" in a speech to the active military in Iraq would cause one to believe the fighting is over.<p><hr></blockquote><p>It certainly didn't cause me to believe the fighting was over. Especially since the actual speech says as much serveral times. But that really the difference between us. I actually listened to the speech.<br><br>BTW, where did I say rape wasn't sexual abuse?<br><br><br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 02:12 PM

And I would submit that you are wrong. But that is an issue of personal belief. In this case you will believe one thing and I another. I don't think either side is really provable at this point.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 02:40 PM

Nice honkers! <br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 02:57 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>This is not the way rational people think. Rational people look at the seriousness of the charge coupled with the relevent evidence and begin a serious investigation and wait for the results.<p><hr></blockquote><p>i assure you that i am rational with regard to this issue. rational people examine available evidence and jump to conclusions all of the time because it is human nature to do so. this is why we have a constitution that ensures people that the gov't should not jump to conclusions and presume guilt and that a proper trial will occur; however, that doesn't stop rational people from doing it all of the time. and, my head is cool through all of this. i am sickened by the stories of beheading, rape, torture, murder, etc., but i am not getting heated as i discuss this with my friends on this forum.<br><br>----<br>"even if we get bin Laden or Zawahiri now, it is 2 years 2 late. Al Qaeda is a very different org now. It has had time to adapt. The administration should have finished this job." Leverett, former Bush Nat’l Security Cncl staff specialist.
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 04:47 PM

Lord, Giz--such a reasonable approach might get you in serious trouble. Next thing you know, people might say you're moderate <br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 04:49 PM

I thought that one was supposed to avoid ad hominem attacks?<br><br>
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 06:34 PM

Fair enough =)<br><br>So exactly what are the established conditions of "victory" for this "war"?<br><br>Which is to say, under what circumstances will the likes of the Patriot Act no longer be necessary and we can go back to enjoying the full freedoms guaranteed to us by the Constitution?<br><br>And I would emphasize that these conditions are not your own beliefs, but those specified by the administration ... from which I have yet to see any. If they have, I would appreciate a link =)<br><br>***matt<br><br>Turn up the signal, wipe out the noise ...
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:22 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>rational people examine available evidence and jump to conclusions all of the time because it is human nature to do so.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Actually that is the opposite of rational thinking.<br>Rational people look at available evidence and come to a rational conclusion. In this case my opinion is that a rational person would see the available photos and come to the rational conclusion that things don't look very good but pictures alone don't tell the whole story so I'll reserve final judgment against those pictured until some context is provided.<br><br>Others have jumped to the conclusion that those pictured are guilty of rape or abuse or torture or all of the above.<br><br>People on the board seem to want to jump to the conclusion that because I haven't jumped to the irrational conclusion that those pictured are guilty that I must believe that they are not guilty. This would also be an irrational conclusion.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:40 PM

I haven't looked at any of the images because I don't want to see them. So I can't judge. But people outside this board whom I respect (not that I don't respect people on this board, but you seem to dismiss folks here as irrational jump-to-conclusion idiots) seem to have come to a conclusion much like what you're calling irrational.<br><br>Here's Mr. Rumsfeld on what he's seen: [color:blue]"In recent months, we've seen abuse here under our responsibility, and it's been a body blow for us," Rumsfeld said at Abu Ghraib. "It doesn't represent America. It doesn't represent American values. It doesn't represent the values of you here in this room."<br><br>"The people who engaged in abuses will be brought to justice," the secretary said. "The world will see how a free and democratic society functions."</font color=blue><br><br>I agree, on the whole, with the idea that the actions don't represent American values (I say on the whole because to think that these kinds of actions are not American is to deny American history, from the treatment of Native Americans to the treatment of slaves and ex-slaves). But Rumsfeld seems convinced that the pictures he's seen do indeed reflect "abuse," and that the abuse is "a body blow for us."<br><br>At lunch today I watched a discussion on CNN about whether the things that happened in the prison were or weren't torture. I'm sorry that I didn't catch the names of the discussants (I was washing dishes for a while). At any rate, the person who was against the notion that the events represent torture sounded more and more like Mr. Clinton on "what is is." More straightforwad, I thought, was the Gen. Myers' deputy, who when asked whether the things he saw in those photos, if done to Americans, would be a violation of the Geneva Accords, said clearly that yes, they would be a violation of the Accords. I know that violating the Geneva Accords is not the same thing as rape or sexual abuse--but to focus on that is to miss the point, I think, which is precisely what Mr. Rumsfeld said: "a body blow for us."<br><br>Now you may disagree, and you may reserve judgment, and you may want more evidence, and you may say that photographs are not sufficient to come to any conclusion. All true. But men and women of good will and of intelligence, independent of the folks on this board, seem to have come to a different conclusion.<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 08:52 PM

Ahh, I've been accused of an ad hominem attack. Glad I'm the one called to the carpet on this. Nice to be held to a higher standard.<br><br>In any event it's unsubstantiated posts like these that afford me the opportunity to make long drawn out posts that no one likes. So let's proceed.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Unbelieveable. You do read your own posts, right?<br>Brought up twice:<br>1) A single post posing a question to me. I did not answer that post.<br>2) Making a silly comparison between the difference of "Mission Accomplished" and "War" over.<p><hr></blockquote><p>A rhetorical question hinting at my incredulity of him claiming he did not bring up the broomstick point twice. Followed by evidence of my original claim.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>It seems as if you'd like to have your politics in sound bytes, spoon fed to you so you wouldn't really have to think or analyize what is being said. But how about you go read the speech on "Mission Acocmpished" day instead of assuming that the entire speech is summarized by those words?<p><hr></blockquote><p>This is not an attack unfounded in logic. So far his posts have truly led me to this conclusion. I do believe that he doesn't analyze. Most of his points are backed up by snippets and sound bytes like "Mission Accomplished" with no further explanation as to why the simple phrases support the conclusion.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You won't read the speech because it immediatly contradicts your false assertion that Mission Accomplished = War Over as evidenced by my two previous quotes whose meaning, of course, remains undisputed.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I also believe this to be true. I really don't think he'll ever read the speech. (Well he may now just to spite me. But, that's OK.) Also it remains true that the content of the speech does directly contradict his original point.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>It certainly didn't cause me to believe the fighting was over. Especially since the actual speech says as much serveral times. But that really the difference between us. I actually listened to the speech.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Also, an opinion I hold to be true. The "Mission Accomplished" banner did not lead me to believe that the fighting was over. It wouldn't have even outside the context of the speech. So his conclusion is false. I also hold the second statement to also be true at that time. Nothing he posted led me to believe he had listened to or read the speech. And that would be a difference between me and him.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>BTW, where did I say rape wasn't sexual abuse?<p><hr></blockquote><p>A statement that doesn't apply to your original comment but a statement that still remains unanswered because it can't be answered.<br><br><br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:02 PM

Thank you for those comments <br><br><br><br>KateMate
Posted by: sean

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:07 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Rational people look at available evidence and come to a rational conclusion.<p><hr></blockquote><p>i think my conclusion is rational, so i guess that's where we differ. merriam-webster defines rational as, "having reason or understanding" and i have reason to believe my conclusion is correct based on the comments i've read. things are bad. i think a rational person reads this:<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>"I expected that these pictures would be very hard on the stomach lining and it was significantly worse than anything that I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden. "Take the worse case and multiply it several times over."<p><hr></blockquote><p>and can assume that things are probably much worse than what we have already seen. <br><br>and this:<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The Army has acknowledged that at least a dozen deaths at prisons and detention camps remain under scrutiny by criminal investigators. The CIA is reviewing at least two additional deaths. <p><hr></blockquote><p>i think a rational person could conclude that it is possible that some of these deaths were caused by US soldiers and await a more conclusive explanation. every death is sad, but the red cross reported that up to 90% of the prisoners were wrongly accused and mistakenly picked up. it's even more sad when civilians die because of our actions. i sure hope this is not the case.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Lawmakers said the images depicted Iraqi female detainees forced to expose their breasts and prisoners terrified by angry dogs. A poor-quality videotape appeared to show a broomstick being used in a sexual abuse episode.<p><hr></blockquote><p>sexual abuse and a broomstick leads a rational person to assume that this is rape because i cannot imagine a scenario where a broomstick is used in a sexual episode that is not rape. can you?<br><br>i don't jump to a conclusion that you think that people are not guilty; i merely think that you are still hoping to believe the best in spite of the comments saying to believe the worst.<br><br>----<br>"even if we get bin Laden or Zawahiri now, it is 2 years 2 late. Al Qaeda is a very different org now. It has had time to adapt. The administration should have finished this job." Leverett, former Bush Nat’l Security Cncl staff specialist.
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:10 PM

Two excellent points. From the pictures alone I think it would be rational to come to the conclusion that the Geneva Accords were probably violated. But only having a general understanding of the Geneva provisions it's still not 100% (more like 95%). I'll have to read up on the Geneva Treaty to come to a more informed conclusion for this.<br><br>But again to the accusations of torture and sexual abuse. Notice Rumsfeld picked his words carefully in his quote as you would imagine he would. He talked about "abuse". Not "sexual abuse" or torture. And I would agree that the photos show abuse. And it's abuse that doesn't reflect American values. That has been my point. People are taking a sensible conclusion that the photos show "abuse" and are inflating that into "sexual abuse", "severe sexual abuse" and torture. Those are serious charges and much more evidence is needed to make them stick.<br>But most posters are writing as if those kinds of charges are really facts. A point I don't agree with. I think the possibility is there but no facts.<br><br>I never said that the behaviors portrayed in the photos are all A-OK and it's nothing to be worried about or that is isn't or shouldn't be a stain on America's image I'm just disputing the more extreme conclusions about the photos and quotes.<br><br>Others may come to different conclusions but one they express them in a public forum they should expect to be asked to defend the conclusion. As I do.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:10 PM

Even Wolfowitz admitted it was "inhumane" and "a violation of the Geneva Convention" today during hearings. I think that says a lot coming from him. This is the deputy secretary of defense that didn't even know the Iraq body count within a hundred when asked last week. That was frightening.<br><br>Here's some excerpts from our newspaper today (AP source) from the Senate committee that saw all the new photos. I thought this was interesting because of the bipartisan reaction. There are a lot of upset people on capital hill.<br><br>Among the most shocking of images was a video of a male detainee repeatedly banging into a cell door, until he collapsed. It appeared the man had a rope lashed around his waist and that someone was pulling him toward the door.<br> "It just deepens the conclusion that this was a cell block gone wild, Senator Lieberman, D-Conn., said.<br><br> Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., a member of the House Armed Services Committee, said he was particularly offended by a photograph in which "a prisoner was sodomizing himself" with a banana. "My conclusion is that that was probably coerced somehow," Franks said.<br><br>Single, specific quotes from various committee members:<br><br>•"Pornographic images involving prisoners. It was hard to tell what orifice you were looking at in the pictures I saw," said Rep. Dave Weldon, R-Fla.<br><br>•"More than seven soldiers standing in a hallway with a clump of people tied together on the floor. You can't tell me all of this is going on with seven or eight Army privates," said Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla.<br><br>•"Dogs snarling at prisoners and women being forced to disrobe. I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell, R-Colo.<br><br>•"People were, I believe, forced to smash heads against doors until their heads broke open. There were people who were forced to have sex with each other," said Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-NY.<br><br>•"U.S. soldiers engaged in pornographic acts with each other. It certainly was so far unbecoming of what we expect from American soldiers. It's so terribly disappointing," said Sen. Norm Coleman, R-Minn.<br><br>• "Some of it is clearly individuals acting in a rogue manner," said Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C. "Some of it has an elaborate nature to it that makes me very suspicious of whether or not others were directing or encouraging."<br>  Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., agreed, saying, "It is impossible that this could have been carried out without the knowledge of higher-ups."<br><br>Wow.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:21 PM

If you want to narrow the field of statements to which adhomination applies, then no doubt you're right. You didn't say "you are an idiot." Not in so many words. You did imply it, at least.<br><br>Or maybe I'm jumping to conclusions. Oh dear. I suppose that means I'm also in the ballpark of idiocy because I don't like to think or analyze.<br><br>edit: Incidentally, I "called you on the carpet" for adhomination simply because you spent a great deal of energy berating folks who did the same thing. Mote and beam time, I thought.<br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by yoyo52 on 05/14/04 00:25 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:22 PM

sigh.<br><br>What's the deal with this "I brought the broomstick thing up twice" routine? I made two posts in reply to you. Here they are:<br><br>#1 (on the first page)<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I can't find any photos posted by Sean nor anything about them on the Boston Globe website, which they refer to?<p><hr></blockquote><p>#2 (on the second page)<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I guess thats kind of like how a broomstick up the @ss is a "big difference" from rape? We really need to get our vocabulary straight here. <p><hr></blockquote><p>That's it, the only replies (except this one) that I've made to you. The broomstick was mentioned once by me. Once. I'm losing my mind trying to figure out where the heck I mentioned this dang broomstick a second time. I even did a search for "broomstick" <br><br>edit: wait make that three. I have another reply denying the "two broomstick" comment also. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I haven't brought up the broomstick thing twice, just once, and my point was that "rape" and severe sexual abuse are very similar. Along the same line, saying "mission accomplished" in a speech to the active military in Iraq would cause one to believe the fighting is over.<p><hr></blockquote><p><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Trog on 05/14/04 00:25 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:27 PM

Up to four now, Trog. Looks like you really are losing it. Maybe you ought to wait for the sound bite before you make another comment on how often you've posted in this thread? <br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:31 PM

Point taken. The original broomstick comment was from Nutty. Then Nutty came up with the first "Mission Accomplished" post stating that this meant the war was over. I responded to Nutty's post and the direct response to that post (now found out to be yours) mentioned the broomstick again. My brain interpreted this as a call back to the first post and erroneously assumed it was a continuation of the thread. Sorry about that. You were the second person to mention it not the same person mentioning it for a second time.<br><br>After reviewing the thread, except for the incorrect conclusion of Trog bringing up the broomstick twice, I stand behind the rest of my posts.<br><br>Dean Davis<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by AfterTenSoftware on 05/14/04 00:39 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:33 PM

I think I've figured it out, though. Nutty was the first to start talking about the broomstick sodomy and maybe he thought that was me. Whew! I was thinking I was already beginning to have senior moments! <br><br>nutty's reply (which was also to Dean)<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>so i just stuck a broomstick up your arse but in a NICE way that wouldnt be rape?<br><br><br>geez<p><hr></blockquote><p>
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:34 PM

No problem, this thread is WAY too long to keep up with if you have to start using Safari's search function. <br><br>I'd still say that I, as well, stand behind the rest of my posts. <br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:45 PM

Excellent question. Since you don't want my personal answer I see what I can dig up regarding the administrations position on this.<br><br>As to the Patriot Act. Two things in real different directions. First, what freedoms were you enjoying before the act that you aren't enjoying now? Second, you really thought you were enjoying the full freedoms guaranteed by the Consitiution before the act?<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:46 PM

I can see the reason for the confusion. You do seem to be pretty nutty sometimes <br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 09:49 PM

Yes, many of the quotes now coming to light are very disturbing. Full and open investigations need to be done to find out exactly what those pictures represent in context. It certainly doesn't look good for those in the pictures and those commanding them.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:04 PM

So none of the individual statements are ad hominem but the whole statement is? That doesn't make sense.<br><br>The reason I didn't say "you are an idiot" is because I don't believe that. If you implied it that is unfortunate. If I think someone is an idiot and for some reason they need to be told that. I tell them they are an idiot. I don't need to hide behind word obfuscation or implication to make a point about my opinion on a persons intellect.<br>Not analyzing the information coming into the brain is not a sign of idiocy. It's usually a lack of training, will or laziness to do so.<br><br>Lastly to the "people in glass houses" argument on to why my post was singled out as ad hominem. So should I conclude then that you believe that ad hominem attacks are OK as long as the violator allows ad hominem responses? Boy, that would make for an intelligent discussion.<br>Of course I call people on ad hominem attacks. Everybody should. One shouldn't wait for a kettle-pot situation to do so. The problem is I wasn't really a pot. I just looked like one to you.<br><br><br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: Trog

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/13/04 10:53 PM

Well, I didn't reply at first because I thought it would just fade away, but it didn't and it hasn't. Then I thought I would just reply to the specifics, like numbers of broomstick comments made, and I would just leave the rest of the very subjective comments untouched.<br><br>But... the "you are an idiot" certainly WAS inferred (which is the word I think you meant to use) even if it wasn't intentionally implied. Mainly it was statements like, "It seems as if you'd like to have your politics in sound bytes, spoon fed to you so you wouldn't really have to think or analyize what is being said." Followed by, "This is not an attack unfounded in logic. So far his posts have truly led me to this conclusion. I do believe that he doesn't analyze."<br><br>Now, I don't want or need to explain how I think or analyze to other members of a web forum, my e-Penis is just fine , but... because it doesn't seem to go away I will say a couple things to defend myself in what feels like my virtual home here at MM. <br>The one-liner style post that somehow ticked you off into that explosion was a couple sentences restating earlier posts (both by nutty, by the way, which may have something to do with all of this..) by other members. They were stuck in at what (I thought) were poignant moments, and therefore I didn't feel they required links and extra analyzing to keep the discussion congruent. It was.... implied, you know, or so I thought. <br><br>Yet, the heart of what makes your response feel like an attack isn't that you "concluded" that I don't "analyze", everyone formulates impressions about other people hundreds of times throughout any given day, its that you felt the need to say that aloud. <br><br>You see, I would just as easily conclude that you do analyze, but that your conclusions appear twisted and wrong. The difference between thinking that, vs. writing it out for everyone to read, is what makes it appear a bit too personal.
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 12:49 AM

Excellent question. Since you don't want my personal answer I see what I can dig up regarding the administrations position on this.<br><br>Thank you =) I actually will be interested to see what you can find, as I have searched and can find no official stand on this issue. (Not that there isn't one - just that I didn't find it) ...<br><br>First, what freedoms were you enjoying before the act that you aren't enjoying now?<br><br>Well, the most glaring is enjoying the right not to have the Executive suspend Habeas Corpus by merely assigning a designation of "unlawful combatant" to whomever it sees fit - especially to US citizens detained in this country. Not to mention a variety of infringements on rights to privacy and unreasonable search and seizure issues. Fortunately, the Judicial is looking at at least some of these, and we'll see what transpires - but the history on deference to the Executive on extraordinary powers during times of "war" does not make me hopeful ...<br><br>Second, you really thought you were enjoying the full freedoms guaranteed by the Consitiution before the act?<br><br>Touché. But I will say we were certainly enjoying more of them than now.<br><br>=)<br><br>***matt<br><br>Turn up the signal, wipe out the noise ...
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 04:41 AM

There you go, jumping to conclusions. Lord lord lord!<br><br>See. It's a pretty easy thing to do.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 04:49 AM

this thread is a joke. after running out of fact to defend their side, they just start talk about the meaning of the words and stuff. that leads nowhere.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 05:12 AM

It leads to obscuring the point<br>to the point of killing it when ever <br>someone wants to change the subject.<br>'Straining at gnats' is a LAWYERS Trick<br>It's an effective tactic, ...however I often <br>question the motive of those that employ it.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 05:30 AM

Again, actually no. I didn't "jump to a consulsion". I arrived at a valid one after reading and applying your statements then asking the source if my conslusion was correct. "Jumping to a conclusion" means that a person has not gone through the step of supporting the conslusion with facts and analysis.<br>The two things are as different as "Mission Accomplished" and "War Over"<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 05:43 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>this thread is a joke.<p><hr></blockquote><p>…and how! <br><br>Here, let me add my infinte wisdom.<br><br> iraszl, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah personal attack blah<br>, blah blah blah blah opinion , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <p><hr></blockquote><p>fact , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <br>, blah blah blah blah nonsense , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah liberal , blah blah blah blah <br>broom stick , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah defensive<br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah …<br><br>oh the humanity of it all. Do you ever feel like you are watching a syndicated talk show?<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 06:31 AM

"blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah blah"<br><br>Wow, Cherry. I normally use a translator to make sense of your posts, but this time you can through clear as a bell. <br><br>"You're off the edge of the map, mate! Here there be monsters!"
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 06:44 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Well, I didn't reply at first because I thought it would just fade away, but it didn't and it hasn't. Then I thought I would just reply to the specifics, like numbers of broomstick comments made, and I would just leave the rest of the very subjective comments untouched.<p><hr></blockquote><p>But you didn't do that. After rightly trying to correct me on my bad thread following you went on with this...<br>"Along the same line, saying "mission accomplished" in a speech to the active military in Iraq would cause one to believe the fighting is over."<br><br>This was after I had posted my argument the the speech clearly makes the point that "Mission Accomplished" does not mean "War Over" or even fighting over. Your one-liner is patently false.<br><br>So, since the speech is very clear that the was is not over then the only way to conclude that the war is over by looking at the banner "Mission Accomplished" is only if you have not listened to the speech. And for some one to twice argue that that the "Mission Accomplished" banner equaled the message of war over even after being shown it's not reasonable to conclude that if you read the speech its easy to then conclude that the poster has no desire to re-examine that assumption. And if one is unwilling to re-examine their conclusions by doing further research then I think it's valid to say "It seems as if you'd like to have your politics in sound bytes, spoon fed to you so you wouldn't really have to think or analyize what is being said." Because it did seem that way. But, I did not imply that you were an idiot but if you want to infer that, well, I can't help that. And I did say it aloud in the forum. Why, because this is an open and public forum and I treat it as if we were all standing in a room having this discussion. And that is something I would have said to you personally at the same point in the conversation even with many other people participating.<br><br>Also the one-liner style posts don't tick me off I just think they usualy are a poor attempt to make a point without any foundation and many times the points are incorrect. I usually don't find them very clever. Your two posts were perfect examples of that.<br><br>Typically such one-liners are left unchallenged. More unfortunatly you tried to use one to counter one of my posts. So, I'm not going to let it stand on its own. I know some people seemed to be getting anoyed that I'm actually challening others to defend their opionons and I'm actually defending mine. But there is something compelling in this discussion because I see that those who claimed to have dropped out still feel the need to read and post.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You see, I would just as easily conclude that you do analyze, but that your conclusions appear twisted and wrong.<p><hr></blockquote><p>That's the difference between simply feeling your conclusions are correct and not coming to a correct conclusion by using the best evidence at hand. Everyone is allowed to feel anything they want but feeling a conclusion is correct doesn't de facto make it correct. So if someone would like to say my posts "appear" twisted and wrong they'll need to come up with something a little more than "I just feel that way". Come up with real reason why they "are" twisted and wrong.<br><br><br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 06:50 AM

Sometimes it's difficult to not personally attack. But when someone invites it by continually portraying a mis-guided superior attitude it does make it easier. So here's a good attempt...<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Here, let me add my infinte wisdom.<br><br>iraszl, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah<br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah<br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah<br>, blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah personal attack blah<br>, blah blah blah blah opinion , blah blah blah blah , blah blah blah blah <p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, that does appear to sum up all your wisdom.<br><br><br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: alAnonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 08:16 AM

BACK ON TOPIC/From CNN.com:<br><br>RE: U.S. Denial of Berg's Detention (talk about "straining at gnats"!)<br><br>"I think some of the confusion emanates from the fact that a number of the detention facilities throughout the country, there are American MPs who play a support role there," Senor added. "But it doesn't detract from the fact it's still an Iraqi facility, and I think once we do a little more investigating we can hope to provide more clarity.<br><br>Berg's father Michael Berg said Thursday that State Department officials told him his son was being held by the U.S. military.<br><br>State Department officials said Thursday that they were later told the information they passed to Berg's family in e-mails -- information they attributed to the Coalition Provisional Authority -- was incorrect."<br><br>Last night Foxnews was trying to link the kid to Al Qaeda, citing his school email account (in Oklahoma!) was at some point (but not at the same time) used by Z. Massoui. <br><br>Fox News = SLEAZE.<br><br>If you step back from the emotional arguments here, I think that the fact that there isn't a "clear picture" of what happened here speaks volumes.<br><br>The truth in it's purest form needs no interpretation. Something isn't right about this story, from the government's perspective.<br><br>CNN LINK<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 08:22 AM

"I have a written statement from th...i prison."<br><br>
Posted by: alAnonymous

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 08:37 AM

Here it is...modern propaganda war tactic #1.<br><br>You're the U.S. Government. People haven't trusted you since Nixon/Watergate. You need propaganda for our times since those deco-facist posters won't wash today. <br><br>Just like the devil's greatest deception was convincing people that he doesn't exist...maybe the government's greatest deception was convincing people that it is incompetent.<br><br>Today's propoganda doesn't look like an election campaign (check out those vintage deco posters!). It looks like a tearful hollywood celebrity apology to something we all know is true. Next time you hear "intelligence failure" one more time, remember...they're still in charge.<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 08:41 AM

What happened to the good times… Monica Lewinsky style~!<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 02:43 PM

I hate the quote-lines-and-show-weakness-of-the-individual-statement approach to argument. I read enough of that in doing 16th century religious controversies in graduate school to last a lifetime. Nonetheless, here's what you said: [color:blue]Lastly to the "people in glass houses" argument on to why my post was singled out as ad hominem. So should I conclude then that you believe that ad hominem attacks are OK as long as the violator allows ad hominem responses?</font color=blue> That's not at all what you ought to conclude on the basis of what I said. The reason is fairly straightforwad: I said nothing at all about people who use adhomination without objecting to the practice. To conclude that I meant something about such people is to jump to the conclusion. Logically, it does not follow: if X then Y does not imply if not X then Y, or vice versa.<br><br>
Posted by: SacredBovine

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 03:40 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The two things are as different as "Mission Accomplished" and "War Over"<p><hr></blockquote><p>You choose, based upon your partisanship, to overlook the obvious;<br><br>If the "mission" in that quote were 'the end of organised hostilities' (the war), then there is no difference at all. If that were not actually the "mission", would you mind telling us what exactly you believe the definition of "mission" to be in the context in which it was used?<br><br>Moo?
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: American beheaded... and for what? - 05/14/04 05:28 PM

Not to mention the PR intent of the "message."<br><br>