Al-Queda wins an election

Posted by: Anonymous

Al-Queda wins an election - 03/15/04 06:15 PM

From OpinionJournal.com, the Dutch economist's statement is crucial:<br><br>The war on terror suffered a setback yesterday when Spain elected a Socialist government, apparently in response to last week's terror attacks in Madrid.<br><br>The Socialists and the terrorists are on the same side, at least as far as the liberation of Iraq goes. "We declare our responsibility for what happened in Madrid, just two and a half years after the attacks on New York and Washington," says a video purportedly from an al Qaeda spokesman. "It's an answer to your collaboration with the criminals Bush and his allies. This is like an answer to the crimes that you have caused in the world and specifically in Iraq and Afghanistan and there will be more if God desires."<br><br>CNN quotes the prime minister-elect, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, as saying, "I think Spain's participation in the war has been a total error." Zapatero still vows to withdraw his country's 1,300 troops from Iraq on June 30, unless the U.N. takes military command. (As we noted Friday, Zapatero is one of the few foreign leaders to have openly endorsed John Kerry.)<br><br>"Al-Qaeda or its affiliates have toppled a democratic government for the first time,'' Bloomberg News quotes Bernard Walschots, a Dutch economist, as saying, in a note to investors. "This may have dramatic implications for the Western democracies.'' The ruling Popular Party, a staunch U.S. ally, had been ahead in pre-3/11 polls. <br><br>The Weekend Australian reports that some 1,000 antigovernment demonstrators gathered in Madrid Saturday "to blame [last] week's bombs in the capital on the government's unpopular decision to support the US war on Iraq." The Associated Press interviews Spanish voters and finds this sentiment was reflected at the ballot box:<br><br>Some voters were angry at outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar, accusing him of making Spain a target for Islamic extremists because of his support for the Iraq war, despite the opposition of most Spaniards. Aznar sent 1,300 Spanish troops to Iraq after the conflict and 11 have died.<br><br>''I wasn't planning to vote, but I am here today because the Popular Party is responsible for murders here and in Iraq,'' said Ernesto Sanchez-Gey, 48, who voted in Barcelona.<br><br>The urge to appease wasn't the only factor at work. The government was overly eager to pin the blame on Basques rather than Islamists; Agence France-Presse reports that Foreign Minister Ana Palacio "ordered all Spanish ambassadors worldwide to use every possible opportunity to 'confirm ETA's involvement' in the attacks." For reasons we don't quite understand, an ETA attack was supposed to have been good for the ruling party, an al Qaeda attack for the Socialists, and it did not inspire confidence that the ruling party was so quick to draw a conclusion that would be politically advantageous but was certainly unwarranted and probably incorrect.<br><br>It's too early to tell if al Qaeda's tactical victory in Spain will turn out to be a strategic one as well. An article in the Financial Times is encouraging:<br><br>Spain's new Socialist government will be quickly put to the test as Ireland makes a big push for the European Union to share more intelligence, beef up co-ordination on security issues and make fresh efforts to stem the flow of funds to banned terrorist organisations in the wake of last week's attacks in Spain that killed over 200 civilians. . . .<br><br>The issue of counter-terrorism issues has been catapulted on to next week's summit agenda, instead of the June summit. <br><br>Diplomats said member states were in no mood to suggest that only those countries that supported the US-led war in Iraq were vulnerable. "Terrorism affects every country. Terrorist networks use countries in which to 'sleep,' " said a senior EU diplomat.<br><br>On the other hand, Agence France-Presse quotes Romano Prodi, head of the European Commission, as saying, "It is clear that using force is not the answer to resolving the conflict with terrorists," and, "Terrorism is infinitely more powerful than a year ago." Infinitely?<br><br>Still, Spain's vote for appeasement may turn out to be a lagging indicator; perhaps 3/11 will turn out to cause Europeans to wise up, even if Spanish voters were not quick enough to do so.<br><br>The election outcome has had a demoralizing effect on pro-war bloggers. "It's a spectacular result for Islamist terrorism, and a chilling portent of Europe's future," writes Andrew Sullivan. John Ellis calls it "the most depressing political development since 9/11, bar none," and says his "assertion that 3/11 would engage the EU in the War on Terror as never before was proven wrong in record time."<br><br>Buck up, guys. Every war has casualties and setbacks, and this isn't the end of the world. If we mope, the terrorists will have won. To paraphrase Dr. Seuss, stop wringing the hands that should wring bin Laden's neck!<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/15/04 06:20 PM

Didn't you just start a thread about this? (i.e. Socialist wins in spain)<br><br><br>[color:blue]Dick Vitale </font color=blue>»
Posted by: iraszl

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/15/04 11:05 PM

two threads are better than one. <br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 04:29 AM

Why don't your Alabama Bush Whacken Army boys go and invade and declare war on their Oil slurping arabs tha Saudi's?<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 07:04 AM

They are still selling them weapons. Give it a couple more years..... <br><br>Remember how it works: Act like friends -> Sell WOMD -> Make $$ -> Cause a panic -> Call them ennemmies -> Go get the oil -> If weapons still present, confiscate weapons.<br><br>Edit: <br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by djstefan on 03/16/04 10:06 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 07:30 AM

mmmmmm....<br><br>....someone's been paying attention!<br><br>The best one is still: <br>When you set up a puppet leader <br>and then declare him the enemy, <br>when it suits your purpose. LOL<br><br>No no wait.....<br><br>How 'bout arming someone until he topples Communism<br>...and then declare him a danger to democracy. LOL<br><br>Or, Or, Or... forcing him into attacking by threatening <br>his life, and then using THAT as an excuse for <br>the NEXT War to get whatever you want.<br><br>BOY! That was a REAL Belly laugh! <br>We ought to find the spin doctor that writes the scripts<br>and pin a BIG OLD MEDEL On Him, (.......OR SUMPTHIN'!)<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 07:42 AM

Just out of Curiosity:<br><br>GOPMachine:<br>You're so "HOT TO TROT"<br><br>What are you doing here Studying Economics<br>Instead of In The ARMY Fighting "Those People" <br>You Want To Send OTHERS Out to Kill So Much?<br><br>YOU'RE SO Free with the "[censored]" Label for Kerry;<br>Come-on Sucker, PUT UP OR SHUT UP!<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 07:53 AM

If I didn't know better, I would call these the tactics of the "Italian MOB" <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 10:03 AM

Every time someone fails to argue with reason, they resort to insults or puppet accusations.<br><br>Oh well, after MC, this stuff is mild. Do yourself a favor, and never become a detective, your skills are lacking in this area.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 10:09 AM

lolol <br>is that what you call what you say? "REASON"?<br><br>....And EXCUSE me PUPPET?<br><br>Where Puppet?<br><br>I asked you to JOIN UP OR SHUT UP!<br>(...and I don't mean "A Paper-Pusher", or the QuarterMaster Corps!)<br><br>If you're so Hot To See People DEAD, Then Go FIGHT!<br>We already have Too Many CHEERLEADER PUPPETS in the Country!<br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 10:41 AM

I think you got the right idea Celandine. There are soo many people in this forum that are FOR the "war on terror" but I do not see a SINGLE ONE going to enroll and go fight. <br>Kida reminds me of the person who started this war and sent over hundreds of 1000s of kids but he has never even been able to finish his army duties... <br><br>For those that belive in the war, GO FIGHT FOR IT! Go and see 18 year old kids getting shot for a few gallons of oil... Go see the war with no end... Vietnam II.... And go support WW3 and be part of the awefull future history.... <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: bird

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 10:51 AM

reminds me of the person who started this war and sent over hundreds of 1000s of kids but he has never even been able to finish his army duties... <br><br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 10:52 AM

This again comes back to freedom and economics. I am not a soldier. This is not my skill, nor my expertise. Secondly I do not wish to be a soldier.<br><br>In our free and market based nation, those who wish to join the military do so, with the knowledge they might be called upon to serve and die in this field. They are trained, and have the skills to be a soldier, and most importantly make the choice. Our nation's fundamental philosophy is that the civilians's representative (the president) has first and final say over the military and even if the president is a draft-dodger like Clinton, he is still in charge.<br><br>This idea I should join the military because I was for the Afghan and Iraq wars is ridiculous to say, very ridiculous actually, and contrary to the principles of freedom and specialization . I'll do you guys a deal, I'll join the military the day you guys become human shields in the next American campaign.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 10:52 AM

This would be a great book cover for a History book about WW3... <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 10:53 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>There are soo many people in this forum that are FOR the "war on terror" but I do not see a SINGLE ONE going to enroll and go fight.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Only the small mind needs to set up the straw-man.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 10:58 AM

"hey are trained, and have the skills to be a soldier, and most importantly make the choice."<br><br>An 18 year old knows no good choice yet. Also, one of the main trainings they give these kids is enough hand-power to be able to hold a gun still. Ever had a gun in your hand? Pretty heavy! Those kids fighting are not any stronger or ready to die than you are. Some of them are HS nerds that couldn't even climb the roap. Those are your human shield!<br><br>If you think they should die, you should go and die with them! You are no better than them and they are no better than you. The only difference is that just like the runner of the country, you are a coward with a big mouth waiting to empocket the $$ that will come from the oil so that you can get your SUV and your mansion.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by djstefan on 03/16/04 02:00 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 11:17 AM

Some of them are HS nerds that couldn't even climb the roap. Those are your human shield!<br><br>Um, have you ever experienced basic training? I highly doubt kids who 'can't climb the rope' are even given a uniform...<br><br>If you think they should die, you should go and die with them! You are no better than them and they are no better than you. The only difference is that just like the runner of the country, you are a coward with a big mouth waiting to empocket the $$ that will come from the oil so that you can get your SUV and your mansion.<br><br>Now this I don't quite understand....Because these guys VOLUNTARILY signed up for military service, ALL of us should have to fight and/or die on the front lines? <br><br>I don't drive an SUV, there was no draft, and these guys know perfectly well of the risk of going to war when they enlist. They don't kidnap guys off the street and lead them to believe that the Army is some wacky off-the-charts exercise program... You're training to fight and KILL.<br><br>I know this may sound harsh, but if an 18-year old doesn't know that fighting in a war could mean severe injury or (gasp!) death, then you can't blame the system...<br><br>Personally, I feel like I have more to offer alive and at home and working than holding a gun in the desert somewhere. Some people may not feel the same.<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: Anonymous

Oil is Life - 03/16/04 11:19 AM

you are a coward with a big mouth waiting to empocket the $$ that will come from the oil so that you can get your SUV and your mansion.<br><br>Agreed. I have so much money in Big-Oil, I need to make it back, even if it costs thousands of soldiers lives. Who cares either way, as long as I drive my super-charged Ford Expedition. <br><br>Now please excuse me, I have to go mansion shopping.<br><br> Exxon Mobile RULES! Big-Oil is father and mother. <br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 11:33 AM

"Personally, I feel like I have more to offer alive and at home and working than holding a gun in the desert somewhere. Some people may not feel the same."<br><br>I guess other's were borned to die in the desert.... They got lots to offer dead.... <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 11:45 AM

I can't list everyone's reasons for joining the military- all I'm saying is that *some* people might see it as their purpose in life, yes...<br><br>They don't sign up *assuming* they're going to die. If everyone did that, then we wouldn't have much of a fighting force, would we? <br><br>"Oh well, I'm gonna get shot or killed anyway...might as well just go step on that landmine over there.."<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 11:52 AM

Few reasons to join the military:<br><br>- Love of the country and to protect it in case of an attack (locally- not on the other side of the world)<br>- Help locally in case of a natural disaster or such<br>- Money - pays well <br>- Schooling - pays for education <br>- And then there are those for adventure<br><br>Once you have signed the contract, they own you. So no matter what was the reason you signed up for, if Mr President needs oil, you signed your soul away for that oil.<br><br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 12:00 PM

Like I said, nothing stopping these guys from walking out of that recruiting office...<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 12:10 PM

Where as GOP has been reasonable, you and others jump in with your same old song and dance. Everyone who owns a home or drives an SUV are war mongering, death dealers. <br><br>You say put up or shut up? Are you curently posting from the middle east as part of a human shield? Are you out there blocking the violence? How about Bird? No? Well why not? You feel so strongly about it, it's not worth it to you to risk your life to save another? <br><br>And since you feel that human life is so important, what about those people targeted by terrorists? What are you doing to protect them, other than moving your mouth up and down? What are you doing to keep another 9-11 happening? Anything? What, nothing at all? Sorry, I coudn't hear you over the screaming "Bush for oil".<br><br>Like it or not, for reasons you agree with or not, those soldiers are saving lives by putting their necks on the line. Politics aside, our troops are out there keeping people from being bombed, shot, posioned, etc. You have a problem with that? Are those lives worth less than yours? No? Then why are YOU doing something to help? Oh that's right, you and others like you only find your power while standing on a soap box.<br><br>And lets say we pull our troops out. Okay, you've won, our troops are back home. Now, what's your plan for dealing with terrorists? You going to use harsh language? Make them go to bed without dinner? Do you understand these people hate us for religious reason? They don't care if we're poor, rich, thin, or fat. They hate us and would kill you on sight. They are raising their children from kindergarden to hate us, and to desire to kill us, because they say we are evil. Because God tells them they must kill us. So tell me, what's your answer to that? Huh? <br><br>Stand on your soap box, and beat your chest. Post clever images of Bush, or whatever. You can make all the noise you want. If you don't have an answer; if you're not doing something to make a positive change, you're nothing more than background noise.<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 12:16 PM

What! Your wrong. Being all nicey nicey to dictators and terrorists gets you off the hook and they will love you and never do anything against you.<br><br>I guess, unless your the UN or the Red Cross or fellow citizens or even (God forbid)...<br>France!<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 12:29 PM

If they hate you because of your religion, why not bomb the Vatican? Why not rome.... or other non-muslims? <br><br>They hate you because you sold weapons to them, their ennemies and then went and killed their children, parents and family. They hate you becaue if it is not done the American way, it is done the wrong way. They hate you because you think you are the top of the world. Because you think the univers evolves around you... They hate you because at least half the globe hates you... They do not hate you because your dollar bill says "In GOD we trust" <br><br>A dog will leave you alone if you don't go and kick it. Same thing applies to humans.<br><br>You want to take those terrorists out, find their camps from satellite and send a guided missile to their camps. Wanna kill Saddam or Binladden, satellites can track them anywhere in the world from the first word they say by their voice frequency. Track them and kill them. Don't just track them and hold on to them in order to win an ellection later.<br><br>What do I do about the war? Same thing as most other people on this planet, protest against it. My power is limited to that. If I wanted to be a human shield, I would enroll in the Canadian army and go fight on the front line since that's where they place Canadians. This is one point that South Park was right on. But I am not gonna go place myself as a Shield to protect others since I do not belive in this war, or any war as a matter of fact.<br><br>Finally: If you want to stop terrorists, STOP SELLING THEM WEAPONS!!!!!!! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 12:46 PM

Uh, yeah. Okay. <br><br>If you read r e a d my post, you'll notice that I said it's their religion, not ours. Their religion dictates that westerner are the great evil. They won't just kill Americans. They'll kill anyone from the west. Canada, South America, England, Denmark... and lets not forget Newfoundland. Yeah, those guys are really, really evil.<br><br>If we truely belived that everyone but America is wrong, why haven't we invaded? Heck, we could take Mexico almost over night. Canada? About a week. Dude, you are so uninformed, I don't even know how you can put two words together.<br><br>You refuse to be a human sheild because you don't belive in the war. So, it's okay with you, then, when a family is killed from a terrorist bomber... because you don't belive in the war. Okay, I can see where that makes sense. (rolling eyes)<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 12:48 PM

I would enroll in the Canadian army and go fight on the front line since that's where they place Canadians. This is one point that South Park was right on.<br><br>I believe the joke in that movie was that they placed the African-American soldiers right on the front line...<br><br>Finally: If you want to stop terrorists, STOP SELLING THEM WEAPONS!!!!!!! <br><br>I don't think it's our policy to sell weapons to terrorists. We sell weapons to countries that express the desire or need to defend themselves. It's when the system breaks down that terrorists get their hands on those weapons.<br><br>I'm not saying it's right that we sell weapons at ALL, but we don't purposely deal them to people who would use them against us. (At the TIME, that is)...<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 12:53 PM

Even though you were completely off point from Skull's post you ask...<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>If they hate you because of your religion, why not bomb the Vatican? Why not rome.... or other non-muslims?<p><hr></blockquote><p>I guess they liked your idea<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: Boothby4

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 01:05 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I think you got the right idea Celandine. There are soo many people in this forum that are FOR the "war on terror" but I do not see a SINGLE ONE going to enroll and go fight. <p><hr></blockquote><p>Now sir you have really pissed me off. I for one have served my country in uniform. 8 1/2 years US Navy Submarine service. The war I fought will never see the light of day. I lost one of my best friends in the first Gulf War. I continue to serve my comunity and to a certain extent my country, as a professional firefighter/paramedic. <br><br>As for others McTeak still wears the Uniform on active duty. Both of us supported the war. I still support the action over there. Saddam was a continuing threat to us, and to every country around him. Regardless of WMD. He sat there and got rich off the UN food for Oil program for the last 12 years. Meanwhile his people starved. He has thumbed his nose at every UN resolution to come along, for the same 12 years. Sanctions didn't work. Diplomacy didn't work. How long do you wait before you say enough is enough. And it has been pointed out that we created this mess, so it is our RESPONSIBILITY to clean it up!<br><br>Now sir I ask you........What exactly have YOU done in the service of your country, besides stand on the sidlines and cry. For that matter have any of you served, in any way shape or form.<br><br>But that's beside the point. I took offense at the intitial post. djstefan I have been following your posts for some time now and all I ever see you do is whine, and cry about what other people are doing. I have listened to you badmouth this country, the Government, the President, and now myself and others on MM. I have not heard you put forth a single solution for anything. It must be nice to be able to sit on the sidlines and throw rocks without having to jump in the game. And as far as your post that started all this...............well sir .........YOU CAN KISS MY @$$.<br><br>(for all those offended by my cursing, with the exception of the target,.......you have my apologies)<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:06 PM

I guess Missionairies in Iraq equal bombing the Vatican.... <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:07 PM

It's the symbolism he's talking about...<br><br>They killed Christian missionaries. Get it? <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:07 PM

No, just a stepping stone.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: Celandine

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:12 PM

The difference is MacDaddy;<br>is that YOU'RE Not the one LOUDY Advocating WAR,<br>and "[censored]-Fying" those that sought diplomacy rather <br>and LOUDLY proclaiming that we are IDIOTS if we don't Vote<br>for the PUPPET that Allowed himself to be tricked into letting<br>us get embroiled into a conflict on flimsy evidence, so other<br>people could get what they wanted at any cost.<br> <br>All the Drum-Beating gets TIRESOME!<br><br>I Challenged GOPmachine to Put up or SHUT UP, I said nothing<br>to anyone else that goes about the pursuit of life, liberty or the<br>pursuit of happiness, but The LOUD MOUTHS That Continually<br>Advocate War & Destruction, that MY SON should Die while they<br>sit home beating their drum to fill the ranks, is UNEXEPTABLE!<br><br>If they want war, Let THEM GO FIGHT IT, otherwise Stop Fanning the FLAMES!<br><br>Now GOP did what I expected, finally stated that he had no intention<br>of fighting for his cause. FINE, but then ACCORDINGLY,<br><br>STOP BEATING THE DRUM TO FILL THE RANKS. STOP CALLING PEOPLE <br>DEMEANING NAMES FOR NOT GOING, JUST STOP! SHUT YOUR PIE-HOLE!<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 01:16 PM

Till I read your last line, I was actually agreeing with you on most points. You are one of those that belives in the war and was enrolled and did your fighting time while still doing it to this day saving people from the hell burning fires. <br><br>I give you props for what you do now and for not being a coward while actually taking action... I guess the "SINGLE ONE" was wrong, and I do take that back... There are a couple in here. As for the rest, I bet you they have never seen a bullet in their life nonetheless toutched one.<br><br>I do not stand and cry because the US is Fusking up as they have been for the last few hundred years. If it wasn't for the Jewish Bank subventions, the US would be eating carp.....<br><br>The reason I cry is because I see the Human intellect at an animal level. That is why I cry if you need to know. We still fight fire with fire while adding tons of gallons of gas on top of it. <br><br>As for kissing your AZZ, sorry, only dogs do that which are retarded animals compared to humans... So go get yourself a dog if you like your ass kissed....<br><br><br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:21 PM

So your point is that the only people that should be in the armed forces during war time are those who support the war?<br><br>So, when war breaks out the country going to war should tell those enlisted, "We are going to war. Anyone who doesn't want to participate should go home now." Then start a recruiting operation from the civilian population asking for war supporters to enlist to replace those who declined to support the war.<br><br>I mean, in general, that is what you are advocating, right?<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: bird

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:24 PM

How about Bird?<br>Well how about me...you know as little about me as I about you..please don't assume or generalize....your opinions are formed about me as mine about you..from reading some words in cyberspace......<br>Oh that's right, you and others like you only find your power while standing on a soap box. Pretty silly isn't it when you read it typed by someone else..like your not standing on one..isn't that we all do when we post..stand up and say something.. If you don't have an answer; if you're not doing something to make a positive change, you're nothing more than background noise.<br>Everyone doesn't have to look at things the same way...but don't put folks in boxes....I have no idea what you are doing for a positive change as you know what I am doing..but please don't assume..I believe if folks had a chance here to sit down..perhaps over a pint or two..we might surprise ourselves that we have more in common then we thought... Anyway..trust me IMO you are no more right or wrong then anyone here.. We all stand on a soap box..and we all want are chance to use it..its a human thing...<br>I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. <br>--Albert Einstein <br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:25 PM

My personal beef with the BushBaby is TOTALLY A-Political.<br><br>I have my own reasons for hating him HIGH, WIDE, & HANDSOME!<br><br>I Don't want to see him as President PAST, PRESENT, AND MOST ESPECIALLY, FUTURE.<br><br>I just got tired of the hate speeches & name calling to egg people into<br>voting for his candidate by demeaning the other candidate anyone that<br>votes for him.<br><br>GOP stated his position, he'll stay home and gladly let your sons die <br>to protect his investments. FINE. That's up to you & Your sons.<br><br>I wanted to make sure everyone saw him for what he is before pulling that lever.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:25 PM

It took a few posts, but you got the point of "Freedom" by the end. You belive a war should be faught and there is no other way around, then go fight! If I have no choice and I am being invaded, yes, I will fight a war too so that my children/family be safe. But that would be in my country, not some place else. Someone comes into my house, I have the right to shoot him, but I'm not gonna go shoot my neighbor cause I think he might have a gun under his bed.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:27 PM

I haven't seen a single post advocating war and destruction. I do, however, see many people advocating an end to terrorsism. And you don't get that stamping your feet and holding your breath. <br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:30 PM

There are a LOT of Brave People that defended what they believed in.<br>I grew up alongside the boys in high school that went to Nam<br>and saw them in college when they came home.<br><br>My father fought in WWII cousins in Nam & Korea<br>Father's people that fought all the way back to the Civil War,<br><br>There are a LOT of Brave people doing lots of things to help<br><br>All I'm saying is that GOPmachine is NOT one of them.<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 01:38 PM

I see now. Oh yes, you are so much more enlightened than us animals in the US. I am only left to bask in the towering shadow of your intellect and compassion. You comprehend the world and human nature on a level I can only hope to achieve in my evil lifetime.<br><br>Let me see if I can changes my ways now so that I may lift myself up to your level...<br><br>I hate war! See how good and smart I am now. I care about all things. My country loves war and wants to kill all living things and destroy the Earth. Now that I understand this I am so good and better than other who do not.<br><br>All the world's poor should be fed and given money from all the evil rich countries. They will like us and not want to kill us then. See how much I care and how much better I understand our diversified world. I'm so good now. I am so worldly.<br><br>My country needs to disarm and disband all our military forces to show the world we mean them no harm. It is only by doing this that they will like us and not want to kill us. Why have I not seen this solution earlier?<br><br>Whew! I feel so much more compassionate now. I'm such a good person now because of my new understanding. I know I still have a long way to go but I know I just took the first step toward compassion and being a child of the world.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: Celandine

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:40 PM

<br>I agree, <br>Stamping our feet and holding our breath will accomplish NOTHING<br>but Neither will relying on FALSE ACCUSATIONS & Playing the Old Shell Game with WoMD<br><br>Perhaps they can take a WORLD POLL.<br><br>Ask the Nations of the World WHO They Consider<br> as lying at the HEART of Terrorism and then take action where it needs to be taken.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:45 PM

Your antiquated idea that a war is only to be fought when a foreign army marches to your border and starts shooting is, well excuse me, stupid.<br><br>Here's an interesting questions.<br>If you could go ask any number of my fellow countrymen now participating in the Iraq war if they thought that I was a coward because I support the war on terror and specifically the invasion of Iraq but did not personally enlist, how do you think they might respond in general? What is your theory?<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: Celandine

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/16/04 01:47 PM

GREAT!<br><br>So now they have friends again biting at each other<br>so they can divide the members and get what they want.<br><br>This is but a Microcosm of what they are doing to the world.<br>We have lost all our friends and allies over a pack of lies.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:55 PM

They WOULD call you a coward for sure. They probably are! A was should be faught as the last last resort. And yes, when I am at the last resort, I will fight too as I have no chooice. Die or fight to live, those are the 2 choices a war should have.<br><br>I am sure our fireman here could tell you how it feels to shoot someone and see your bullet go right through his head. Go out and shoot a deer for hunting, then immagine that deer was a human being with a family and friends. <br><br>You talk easy about a war 100000 miles away. Go fight only for 1 day and then we will see. There are other options then war, but if we took those options what would we do with all our weapons?<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 01:59 PM

I'm not sure if you're trying to imply something or not.<br><br>But if you want to ask anyone where the heart of terrorisim is, anyone can tell you it's where ever someone believes it's okay kill innocent people in the name of Ala. (which if anyone has done any reading on that, knows that Ala is a God of peace, not hate)<br><br>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 02:04 PM

Again your words enlighten me...<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I am sure our fireman here could tell you how it feels to shoot someone and see your bullet go right through his head. Go out and shoot a deer for hunting, then immagine that deer was a human being with a family and friends. <p><hr></blockquote><p>Until I read this I didn't understand that war is as close to hell as someone can get I thought it was only like on TV or the video games I play 16 hours a day. Thank you again for your new insights.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 02:13 PM

I do belive a lot of people don't know what war really is. A lot of kids who enroll don't know what it is till they get there and start to see the nicely colord sparks fly by in the middle of the night while hoping to ever get to toutch one of them. <br><br>Take a Gun and go to the shooting range if you have never been. Feel the power of a gun, and then immagine having one pointed at you or pointing one to someone else. <br><br>When there are other options, war should not even be thaught of...<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 02:30 PM

"Take a Gun ... immagine having one pointed at you or pointing one to someone else. "<br><br>I've had one (more than one) pointed at me and have held a gun on someone else. What's your point? I didn't like either situation, but it doesn't mean that I wouldn't have pulled the trigger if it had been the only way to save a life.<br><br>Maybe you should know more about what you're talking about. Pease doesn't happen by holding hands and singing songs. These people want to kill us and they WILL come to this country to do it. So, we have to go to the source; destroy the organizations that protect them. <br><br>Geezzz, how many times do you have to be told? Wake up. This isn't a nice, fun, warm and fuzzy, situation. It's going to take force to stop them, because they are not going to simply give up. That's it, plain and simple.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/16/04 02:45 PM

When are you going to understand that these people want mainly revange. The more fire you will cause the more revange they will want. You kill one, 3 will want revange for that person you killed. What the US is doing is not fighting the war on terror but causing the terror. And like it was not enough that the US got themselved ennemies, all the countries that went along with the US have to suffer now and for many more years to come.<br><br>Noone wants to kill noone unless revange is wanted. There are other alternatives, fighting should not be one of them. <br><br>You will never get peace while fighting. Also, remember that in any fight, 2 parties fight and a 3rd one wins. <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: Anonymous

Outrageous - 03/16/04 02:49 PM

They hate you because you sold weapons to them, their ennemies and then went and killed their children, parents and family.<br><br>Be specific, not hard-left ranting out of nowhere. Which nations did the US sell weapons to? If you mean Afghanistan, then yes, I can guarantee if I was president at that time (Jimmy Carter, Reagan) i would have done the same thing? Why, because Afghanistan was being invaded by the Soviet, and the Afghans needed weapons to protect themselves from the atheist invasion. At that time the main threat to the free world was the Soviet empire, and protecting Afghanistan, and the huge defeat the soviets suffered there accelerated the fall of the USSR. <br><br>They hate you because at least half the globe hates you... <br><br>So it would be okay to hate blacks in the 17th century, when most white nations saw them as inferiors or slaves. But even there, I disagree with your premise. America has the most immigration of any advance nation, if not any nation, i believe jealously is a better word than hate, after all when France was a global power they used it to conquer and be imperialist. America has used her power to protect freedom, and expand liberty (WW2, Cold War, War on Terrorism). <br><br>Don't just track them and hold on to them in order to win an ellection later. <br><br>If evidence came that Bush faked having Bin Laden, that would bring his presidency down. He can win against a Boston flip-flopping liberal any day of the week, especially with $100 million in the bank. Enough with the unsourced conspiracies. What does it mean that we took the oil??? So we are there, stealing oil, and ladadida no one notices? <br><br>You want the TRUTH??? The real truth friend? The sad truth is that this war was for oil, but not the American position, the anti-war position. France and Russia had publicly big oil contracts with the Hussein regime, and that's one of the main reasons for their opposition.<br><br>Here's some more economics: OPEC, not some corporate consipracy, controls the oil supply. OPEC nations decide output, therefore practically deciding prices. War is not good for business! Risks increase, and stocks decrease. <br><br> I would enroll in the Canadian army and go fight on the front line since that's where they place Canadians. This is one point that South Park was right on. But I am not gonna go place myself as a Shield to protect others since I do not belive in this war, or any war as a matter of fact. <br><br>Yeah I forgot the invaluable nature of the Canadian military to US foreign affairs ;-). Actually, the US marines and army are the ones on the front lines, both in Afghanistan and Iraq. Canadians might come when the action is gone to protect the place like in Afghanistan, but the majority risk and resources is taken by the US in Afghanistan and the US and UK in Iraq. I bet you Canada has more deaths in Afghanistan from accidents than combat. <br><br>Since I support both wars, I must sign-up right? Then you have to sign-up against them by becoming a human shield if you are serious about being against these wars. See the faulty logic?<br><br>Finally: If you want to stop terrorists, STOP SELLING THEM WEAPONS!!!!!!! <br><br>I can say "socialists stop eating babies." That means nothing. Please specify were the US sold weapons to terrorists. I already stated the Afghan affair, and as for Hussein, enough with the far-left spin that America armed him. Yes we did help during the Iran-Iraq war, but nearly all his weapons were Soviet made since like them he was a socialist, a Baath Socialist. My source is the Economist on the weapons supply for Iraq.<br><br>By the way, did the terrorists buy from America two planes on that morning of Sep. 11th? This is a new war, and tanks/jet fighters, the weapons America specializes in are not the weapons of the enemy. Your entire accusation is almost like saying we have never been to the moon.<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Ten times more outrageous! - 03/16/04 03:05 PM

GOP stated his position, he'll stay home and gladly let your sons die <br>to protect his investments<br><br>If you are talking about my statement about having money in Big-Oil, I can guarantee most of the other guys here saw the sarcasm in it. I have no investments in oil, and for that matter I'm not even that rich. Let's stop with the class warfare. I don't have an SUV, I like coupes. I definately don't live in a mansion.<br><br>I called my friend's mother on a weekly basis during the second Iraq war last year. Her son was serving in the marines as a front-line driver-engineer. I prayed for his safety on multiple occasions, and anxiously looked at the early casuelty lists. <br><br>His mother was a democrat, and pro-war, and inspired me with her courage. She disliked the anti-war crowds ridiculous statements about this war being for oil. What about that? Is she planning to make profits over her son's service? Her son, thank God, came back from the war safely. <br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

They never were our friends - 03/16/04 03:10 PM

A friend is there for you through thick and thin, like the UK and Israel. France, Russia were never our friends. These two has beens are so jealous of lost power, they will never give America a break. They are like the guy who hates it when you tell him you just made it big.<br><br>As for Germany, their actions are back-stabbing. America proudly defended West Germany, and instilled capitalistic values to build her, and what do we get from Germans when we ask for support in Iraq War II? <br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: Outrageous - 03/16/04 03:19 PM

You can say anything you want, you will never convince me this war was supposed to be and that fighting fire with fire is the way to go. <br><br>When I had my store, I had guys to do the manual labor. The only difference is that when I would ask them to go move heavy 70lb monitors by the 100s, I was always there with them sweating till I would drop. I never sat in my office on my leather chair while they were doing all the work. And yes, I was paying them... <br>You belive in something, do it yourself. I do not belive in this war so I will not fight. If you do, and you belive there is no other way but with this war, than you should be there fighting on the front line. There is no "But but but" unless your hadicapped or a women or a kid under 18.<br><br>If you are not fighting, then it means you belive there are other ways than war, it's that simple.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: Anonymous

I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 03:19 PM

There are a LOT of Brave people doing lots of things to help<br><br>All I'm saying is that GOPmachine is NOT one of them.<br><br>I am not a soldier. I helped in the only way I thought I could, by calling my friend's mother and praying for her son. I would support any raise in military pay on any day. Take that money away from those farm subsidies, and other pork projects, and give it to the troops.<br><br>Some of the anti-war people actually did something to hurt the troops. Imagine fighting in Iraq, then coming to base watching on Fox News the anti-war demonstrators burning the US flag and calling soldiers Iraqi baby killers. That hurt morale.<br><br>Stop attacking me, and start proposing an alternative view. Your idea of a world poll is the stuff that would make Republicans burst out in laughter. Where in the constitution does foreign policy fall unto a world-collective order? <br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 03:22 PM

"Where in the constitution does foreign policy fall unto a world-collective order?"<br><br>So what you are saying is the same thing the US told the UN:<br>"Our way or our way or our way or our way"<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: Anonymous

Almost forgot - 03/16/04 03:31 PM

Almost forgot my most important post in this thread,<br><br>Thank you Boothby for serving our nation. Your service is invaluable, and we are all proud of our boys, be it present troops, or past veterans. <br><br>I would never dare call myself brave, next to men such as you ;-). When I have a son, it won't matter what background he's coming from, if he decides to join the armed forces, he will have my support.<br><br>God bless you.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 03:34 PM

Are we supposed to get permission from the UN to prevent another attack on us? So yes, it's our way. <br><br>The UN is useless. There are so many agendas it's pointless to rely on them. <br><br>Do you honestly think that France and Russia would agree to the US going into Iraq when they know it would hurt their oil deals with Saddam? No, they wouldn't. They would allow more attacks on the US so they could have oil. So, is America will the big bad wolf?<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 03:45 PM

I know people working for the UN. Trust me, all the UN wants is world peace. The UN is for the good of the people, not the bad.<br><br>And about needing the support of the UN to protect yourself? How is the country protecting itself when a big part of the troops are out of the country? Terrorists could be anyone, your neighbor, your friend, your boss..... And those are not in Iraq, but around you. <br><br>All the US is doing is pissin off more and more terrorists while helping them get recruits. Like you said, terrorists do not fight with guns anymore, so how are you gonna catch them outside of your country when they are inside of it already?<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 03:49 PM

"How is the country protecting itself when a big part of the troops are out of the country?"<br><br>Hence we have the National Guard<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 03:53 PM

It did a great job on sept 11! And that while all the troops were still in the states. Face it, the terrorists are there, your troops are not. They are fighting the wrong war in the wrong location. If you are not fighting a war at home, that make you the "ennemy"! Say home, fight your own wars... leave the rest of your world alone! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 04:01 PM

Are you getting enough fresh air where you are? Maybe you should open a window because you are not making any sense.<br><br>Were I you, I'd be very careful about commenting on the National Guard. Somebody might get the wrong idea<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 04:13 PM

Wrong idea? hahaha I say scrue them, what they gonna do? While I was living in the "free country" I was scared to talk, now I can say anything I want! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by djstefan on 03/16/04 07:15 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Anonymous

UN is a living joke - 03/16/04 05:27 PM

Trust me, all the UN wants is world peace. The UN is for the good of the people, not the bad.<br><br>Your telling me the Cubans, Syrians, Lybians want peace and the good of the people? The UN exists to give legimacy to illegal governments, like Cuba, Syria, Iran, etc.<br><br>The UN doesn't care about anything, since the UN is simply a regroupment of nations trying to push their agenda. It is a place for has-beens like Russia and France to push the last remain of their power, the security council veto. <br><br>I would rather die then let "Guinea" veto power over American foreign policy.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/16/04 05:32 PM

It wasn't a threat. I was saying that if you have something to say about them, make sure you word it so that you're not misunderstood.<br><br>Screw them? I guess we understand you very well now.<br><br> <br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

What is this? - 03/16/04 05:40 PM

If it wasn't for the Jewish Bank subventions, the US would be eating carp.....<br><br>What is this supposed to mean? Another anti-semitic conspiracy theory from people outside Israel/America thinking Jews run the world ;-)?<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: What is this? - 03/16/04 06:36 PM

Not a conspiracy, all the $$ to cover your deficit, where do you think comes from? The US was sold long ago to the highest bidder.... and it's right there on your bills too, look straight into the eye of the pyramid. <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: What is this? - 03/16/04 06:48 PM

That does it. Back away from the keyboard, dude, and take a deep breath. I don't know where in Canada you are, but your paranoia and anti-Semitic weirdness is totally inappropriate. You think Canada is somehow resistant to the very corruption you insinuate has felled America? Please. Don't pollute your own arguments with unfounded, malevolent allegations... you belittle yourself.<br><br>max
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: What is this? - 03/16/04 09:49 PM

Holy crap! Excuse my French but...<br>I thought you were kinda off off-your-rocker, so to speak, but I never even dreamed you jump right in to the deep end of the ILLUMINATI pool.<br><br>Wow! All I can say at this point man is "Wow!"<br><br>Good night, and have a pleasant tomorrow.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: iraszl

Re: UN is a living joke - 03/16/04 11:51 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Your telling me the Cubans, Syrians, Lybians want peace and the good of the people? The UN exists to give legimacy to illegal governments, like Cuba, Syria, Iran, etc.<br><br>The UN doesn't care about anything, since the UN is simply a regroupment of nations trying to push their agenda. It is a place for has-beens like Russia and France to push the last remain of their power, the security council veto. <br><br>I would rather die then let "Guinea" veto power over American foreign policy.<p><hr></blockquote><p>that's not true. UN is inefficient, but this organization is still in it's childhood, inspite the fact that it has been around for many years. the UN represent a dream and most of the people working there believe in it. i too have spoken with people who work for the UN and they are not just bsing. so, i think your perception of the UN has to be reviewed.<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 09:40 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Some of the anti-war people actually did something to hurt the troops. Imagine fighting in Iraq, then coming to base watching on Fox News the anti-war demonstrators burning the US flag and calling soldiers Iraqi baby killers. That hurt morale.<p><hr></blockquote><p>You don't have a clue do you GOP. You haven't been to the front and yet you talk as though you have first-hand knowledge of what goes on in the minds of our military.<br><br>First of all, the DOD screens all news. All of it, and releases only what they want you to hear. Do you think for a moment that the DOD would allow anti-war propaganda be allowed to reach their eyes? When was the last time you picked up a copy of the Stars and Stripes? Do you know what that is? TV? Fox News? Give me a break. Or better yet just shut up about our soldiers in Iraq or on any front for that matter. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I am not a soldier. I helped in the only way I thought I could, by calling my friend's mother and praying for her son.<p><hr></blockquote><p>That's all well and good and I'm sure she found some comfort in your words no matter how shallow. <br><br>"Imagine" all you want but I for one don't care what you think about what our soldiers are enduring in Iraq. <br><br>Money is not the answer to everything. Or did your friends mom have another opinion? I doubt it. What she wants more than anything is for her son to come home. <br><br>What Marines, Sailors and Soldiers around the world really want is peace. What our military on the front lines want is leadership in their ranks, and in the White House.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 10:09 AM

"What Marines, Sailors and Soldiers around the world really want is peace."<br><br>Right, and that's why they willingly joined up. They know they can be sent anywhere in the world. <br><br>GOP has got it right. Plus, he was talking about when troops come back to the states when they see anti war dopes<br><br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 10:35 AM

"There's NOBODY That Hates War More Than A Soldier!"<br><br>Those brave people did what they felt was right, <br>the same way the rest of us did when we rolled up<br>our sleeve to give blood.<br><br>My heart goes out to them, as it did during VietNam.<br>I NEVER Spit on them.... and despise those that did!<br><br>They were brave people that got sucked into a bad situation.<br>They didn't do it because they loved fighting, or sought glory,<br>or anything more than to serve their country.<br><br>I support our troops now.<br>But NOT THE POLITICIANS THAT SENT THEM THERE UNDER <br>FALSE PRETENSES.<br><br>There should be an investigation into WHOEVER made the<br>the ACCUSATIONS of WoMD and ---into the people that <br>continue to cause unrest by perpetrating lies that are<br>making the bad situation worse, by involving more and<br>more countries, thus allowing the hatred to spread further<br>and further.<br><br>The people at the root of the lies are the TRUE TERRORISTS,<br>and they should be held accountable to a World Court.<br><br>YOU WANT A PROPOSAL? THERE IT IS.<br><br>The WORMTONGUES of the World should be SNUFFED OUT!<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 11:35 AM

Celandine, I think it's a lost case. <br><br>It's really sad that there are cowards out there watching TV in their comfy sofas while thinking that those soldiers (kids) are happy to be out there fighting. These are the same people who voted for the Dictators that sent those kids out there in the 1st place, and the sadest thing is they think they voted right... <br><br>Many have voted, few have signed up... Many still agree with the war but only a few fight it... Now what does that tell you? <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 11:58 AM

And you're typing this from the front lines, are you? <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 12:43 PM

I never voted for and always have been against.... so no, not from the front lines....<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 02:10 PM

Don't bother with this person. They are so far over the top that it's pointless. <br><br>He's got no answers or solutions to deal with terrorist attacks, but anyone who believes we should take action to stop them is a war monger, death dealer, blood lusting monster. Oh yeah, and have big houses and drive SUVs.<br><br>Total nut job.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 03:17 PM

Funny , I was just about to say the same thing about YOU:<br><br>"Don't bother with this person. They are so far over the top that it's pointless."<br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 03:31 PM

But you didn't. So, what's your point?<br><br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 03:38 PM

"MSNBC News Services<br>Updated: 4:50 p.m. ET March 17, 2004<br>BAGHDAD, Iraq - A thunderous car bomb shattered a five-story hotel housing foreigners in central Baghdad on Wednesday night, killing 27 people and leaving a jagged, 20-foot-wide crater just days before the anniversary of the start of the Iraq war. "<br><br>This just happened. What did you do to try to prevent it? Where is your solution? How will you stop the terrorists?<br><br>You have no answers, only whining, and laying blame. That is what we call pointless.<br><br>Go ahead, tell me what your solution is. I'm waiting. <br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 03:54 PM

<br>What are you a freaking parrot?<br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 03:59 PM

No solution? No surprise. <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 04:03 PM

The Solution is the same as with AIDS. You can't cure them, but you can wear protection and hope not to get infected.<br><br>It is physically impossible to catch all terrorists, so the best that can be done is use intelligence to protect your country. And STOP PROVOKING THEM! Spain has the right idea, leave them alone and hope they will leave you alone. <br><br>They are everywhere in the WORLD. They are NOT in Iraq. What are you gonna do, throw an atomic bomb to wipe out a whole planet. <br><br>A lot of the terrorists are not even part of AlQuaida. They work on their own because they want revange. Revange because their families and loved ones have been killed.<br><br>Let's face it, to make a bomb that will blow up a train compartment or a buss, all you need it to download the recipe off the net, and you can make it with household merchandise. You can do it on your own, no group needed, no AlQuaida needed. <br><br>Look around you and tell me if you know for sure who is a Terrorist and who is not. <br><br>This terrorism BS is just an excuse to invade, steal, and kill. It is not the main reason behind this war, the same way Saddam isn't nor is Binladen. <br><br>Face it, the only terrorists here are the ones sending out their nation's kids for a few gallons of oil.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: Celandine

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 04:12 PM

<center><br><h1>CONGRATULATIONS!</h1><br><br><h2>YOU'RE THE NEW WEINNER</h2><br></center><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: rman

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 04:52 PM

<br><br>Each person is entitled to there opinion, even if does not line with yours.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 05:55 PM

Good! 'Cause that's my opinion.<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 06:27 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Spain has the right idea, leave them alone and hope they will leave you alone. <p><hr></blockquote><p>Wishful thinking. Do you really think a bully will let up on you once he smells your fear? Withdrawing in hopes of being left alone only emboldens a bully. The same principle applies to nation states and the conflicts between them, and between nation states and terrorist groups. You are being woefully naive if you think that appeasement will work as a response against a force which is already fundamentally opposed to you.<br><br>max
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 06:57 PM

I think it's a misunderstanding to suppose that Spain in fact has decided not to pursue terrorism. Zapatero has made it clear that that is not the case at all. What he has said is that the invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with al Qaeda. I think he's right. It's true that at this point, because of Mr. Bush's ill-advised, reckless invasion (MHO, of course) al Qaeda has taken on the mantle of "protector" of Iraq from western imperialism. From what I read about the average Iraqui's attitude, al Qaeda does not have that role in their eyes. But while the US and the "coallition" is there, al Qaeda has a ready-made excuse. That's why it's absolutely imperative for the UN to take the lead in the settling of Iraq's political future. That's also what Zapatero has said: he will withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq if and only if the UN has not taken the lead in Iraq. In other words, at this point the most effective anti-terrorism is to de-westernize the political settlement of Iraq, to make it crystal clear that this is not a crusade nor an imposition of the West on the Middle East. That's exactly what Mr. Bush's invasion failed to take into account, and that's exactly what has led to the increasing anti-American stance in so much of the worl. Every time I think about it, I can't believe just how incredibly stupid it was for the US to insist on invading. The damage that the warriors in White House and Pentagon have caused is just incalculable.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 06:57 PM

Guess the answer is somewhere between swinging the big stick and whimpering in the corner...<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 07:02 PM

IMHO the answer is in treating terrorism as a challenge to the legal framework of world order. Again IMHO, you just cannot establish legal principles with a gun and a bomb. It is not a military problem. It is a legal one. No doubt it's a challenge to the legal system of the planet because an effective legal response requires that we treat international legal entities, like the UN, as if there were a real government and not just a paper artifice intentionally made toothless so that the "great powers" could do what they wanted. But that's a different rant <br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 07:03 PM

So we didn't invade Iraq- we performed a 'search and seizure'...<br><br>Touché! <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 07:04 PM

I vote for DaddyMac for UN Secretary General! <br><br>
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 07:38 PM

Interesting response, Yoyo... thanks for making it. I guess I was more responding to my fellow countryman's posts than I was trying to suggest that Spain is actively into appeasement. As you yourself have suggested, it could be a situation with more subtlety than than what many of us are willing to acknowledge.<br><br>I don't know... I still think the Bush admin tied Iraq and 911 together for the sake of legitimizing going into Iraq - nothing has fundamentally changed my own opinion about that situation. Of course there are many in the West who find such a stance abhorrent... just as there are many who uncomfortably wonder what side everyone is on in these high-stakes games playing out in the media.<br><br>But as for rampant anti-Americanism, I believe it's long been out there - so in that sense, invading or not invading Iraq would not make a difference to those who seek personal advantage by slagging the US on a full-time basis. Hating/denouncing America has become something of a spectator sport around the globe. That said, I also wonder if we aren't seeing several parallel developments arising... the demonization of Islam on the part of the West, the rise of fundamentalist religions around the globe as a direct response to increasingly tense conditions between the haves and have-nots in this increasingly crowded, dog-eat-dog world... crazy times we are living in.<br><br>Anyway, always good to try and foster a degree of understanding, especially between borders. Cheers!<br><br>max
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 08:27 PM

I don't know why you're upset with me. you're the one with absolutely no clue about what can be done. So to compensate for your utter failure, you lash out at me. You resent that I have a solution. You resent that I speak clearly about the issue and the best you can do is rail like a child throwing a tantrum. <br><br>That you think posting pictures is a mature, adult response says a lot about you. That you completely dodge my direct question to you, also says a lot about you.<br><br>Okay, you can post another picture, or large, bold text.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 08:30 PM

If you're interested, there's an interested op-ed piece in the NY Times, here. You need to register to get to it, though. Anyway, it's written by a professor at Bard College who's just published a book on how "the west" is perceived by non-westerners.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/17/04 11:35 PM

&[censored] job in America I said: "Wow, that's amazing, he made it!". Coca-Cola, Elvis and Hollywood were idols of at least two generations.<br><br>just very recently, few years ago, things have suddenly changed. it has started at the end of Clintons term and exponentially grew during the Bush era. now the situation is worse than ever. i always wanted to go to America to live and work, but nowadays i fear expressing my wishes in front of other people. doesn't matter if i'm in Bahrain, Hungary or Thailand. even Australians and Germans look at me with a sorry smile. the image of America has been systematically destroyed. before people envied American citizens, now people feel sorry for them.<br><br>there are real reasons behind this amazing transformation. you need to look at issues from a more global standpoint, rather than local. first of all, the image that has been built before was a bit of a hype and when [censored] hit the fan, the first thing that happened is that the pink bubble burst.<br><br>i can't list all things that happened that lead to this collapse, but i'll try to list a few. first of all the media gave a better understanding of issues, people read alternative news sources, that are much less controlled. the eyes of people have opened and many got interested in global issues. many had high hopes for the biggest democracy (not in size). all they got for the last 6-7 years was disappointment. America failed to handle the global environmental problems. America pulled itself out from most international efforts that united 90% of the countries of the world. America repeatedly bullied the UN, the only hope of a future World government. America's oil lobby is killing all scientific development for renewable energy generation. America started wars on countries for reasons that big part of the world think is false. America became a threat culturally and physically to many. etc. All this and many other bad decisions led to change the image of the US in the world on all social levels. people don't perceive American as a role model. they think America is just greedy and uses it's friends for it's own good.<br><br>this is very sad, because all these issues overshadow the tremendous achievements that America can share with the world in every sense. it's going to be very hard to cure this situation, but it's for the benefit of all.<br><br>i'm not saying that the US should baby sit the World, but it should act as an important and fair player in global issues. it should act responsibly and not based on short term gains. you can't expect to make everyone happy, but when the the perception goes from angel to evil, than there is certainly something is wrong. i blame mainly Bush jr. & Co. for this, but you know the situation better, draw your own conclusions.<br><br>
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 04:21 AM

Good post, iraszl. It was never my intention to suggest that the world has entirely switched its perception of America... rather, the impressions people have around the globe tend to form a more complex agreggate these days. A great deal of the old admiration is still there, of course.... that's like bedrock. As for America's role on the world stage, I vacillate on that one on a regular basis. Usually I stick by the adage that all of the big players should show leadership and shoulder tremendous responsibilities. But often enough I also think it a quaint, even dangerous, notion that any one nation could or should attempt to act like a global cop - it opens things up to all sorts of moral distortions. Not that there isn't enough bizarre role-playing and moralizing going on in the world as it is... and where we used to have two superpowers a few decades ago, now we have one, and I'm not at all certain that this is a healthy thing either... as I indicated, it's complicated. Cheers.<br><br>max
Posted by: MaxMacDonald

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 04:22 AM

Thank you for the NYT link, Yoyo... when I get into work I'll register with the Times and give it a read - cheers.<br><br>max
Posted by: cherry

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 05:32 AM

<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 06:36 AM

The US did treat terrorism as a legal problem through the Clinton administration and earlier. What did it get us? 9-11. Treating terrorism as a legal problem is really just silly. Think about it. If Osama knew he was going to be caputred no matter what, all he'd have to do is go to France and they would never extridate him to the US because we would sentence him to death in our legal system. Terrorism is a war. Unfortunatly people can't wrap their heads around a war without a two defined political entites making formal declarations. America sees it's very foundation under attack. 9-11 cost this country billions and billions. It cost people jobs, threw the economy into semi-chaos and is probably the reason why we are having such a slow recovery now. To tell lthe American people, "Well this 9-11 bombing is a legal problem and the 11 guys who did it are dead so there is nothing we can do there but the FBI is working with the international community to bring their bosses to justice as long as we find proof beyond a reasonable doubt who was invovled and they don't flee to a country like Iran or Iraq who could give a crap less about international justice." See my point?<br>Of course statements like "treat international legal entites, like the UN, as if there were a real government" start to reveal some of your beliefs. To that I respond, "You can take my national sovereignty when you pry it from my cold dead fingers."<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 06:47 AM

Since when does al Qaeda need an "excuse" to attack someone? If al Qaeda had nothing to do with Iraq why would they attack Spain because of Iraq? If Iraq was just an "excuse" then it doesn't follow that they would NOT have attacked Spain if Spain weren't in Iraq since they would have simply just found a different excuse. They attacked Spain because they don't want freedom for any part of the middle east and they will kill anyone and anything to meet that objective. If Spain is helping bring freedom to Iraq then Spain is a target. al Qaeda and their ilk are ANTI-FREEDOM and they attack those who are pro-freedom. Spain pulling out of Iraq is a big mistake. You can argue all you want if they should have gone in in the first place but the point is that they are there now and pulling out in response to the bombings give the terrorists the victory they have been looking for.<br><br>Also, I'm very busy today so I can't do as much Googling on this topic as I'd like but it was also suggested ahat the UN take the lead role in Iraqs political future. Please point me to some examples of successful political operations the UN has had a lead role in that have been sucessful so I can narrow my research. I really don't know the UN's track record on this.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:00 AM

hahaha oh my gosh! So the entire downfall of American began 'after' Clinton. <br><br>So on November 4, 1979, when Iranian took the American Embassy hostage, in Tehran; what was that? Did they mistake our embassy for the French one?<br><br>The World Trade Center bombing in 93?<br>The bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa, in 98?<br>Pearl Harbor? Did the Japanese have thier maps upside down?<br><br>The United States provides more aid in money, food, and medical supplies than any, a n y, other country in the world.<br><br>It's so simple for everyone to take and take from us, and in the same breath curse the very country that's helping them. We prevent wars with our aid. History has shown time and again that when a country had depleated it resrouces, it would invade another and take their resources. Never mind. You willingly ignore reality, and I see no point in telling you these things. <br><br>Those sad smiles you're getting? It's because they can't believe how uninformed you are. <br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:02 AM

Welcome to the Picture Posting club. You win a cookie. But don't eat it. After all it's made by evil, war mongering, gay hating, workers to labor day and night to extract the most harmful chemicals and mix them into the dough.<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:19 AM

Oh man, you told me! LOL<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:26 AM

Nah, I wasn't attempting to 'tell you' anything. Words mearly fail when trying to describe a human train wreck.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:33 AM

Well said Ivan! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:41 AM

i blame mainly Bush jr. & Co. for this, but you know the situation better, draw your own conclusions<br><br>3 years of Bush is just really really unfair to judge us on, though. Versus at least 150-200 years of greatness, that is...And largely on the actions of one administration that is, in a lot of ways, going against the grain of its own people..<br><br>It's a rough spot, nothing more. The 'doom and gloomers' have been predicting the end of American civilization from the beginning. I have no doubt that we'll come through it, stronger and better as a nation than before.<br><br>You almost have to pity us rather than hate us right now...<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: G4Dualie

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:54 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>It's a rough spot, nothing more. The 'doom and gloomers' have been predicting the end of American civilization from the beginning. I have no doubt that we'll come through it, stronger and better as a nation than before.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Nero said basically the same about the Roman Empire.<br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in<br>the country,"<br>--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC.</font color=blue>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:57 AM

Funny, but different.<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 08:15 AM

You're thinking in nationalistic terms, Dean. I understand that it's hard to conceive of a world government, however hedged about with security for the sovereignty of nation-states, or of a world legal structure--but that's exactly what the challenge of terrorism demands from the world at this point in history. Not to move in that direction is, IMHO, a guarantee of continued and continuous disaster. And it's not as if I hide or disguise my notions about world government. The attitude that national sovereignty must be preserved at all cost will, again IMHO, indeed cost a great deal.<br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by yoyo52 on 03/18/04 11:17 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 08:29 AM

[censored] Storm is:<br>Can we live thru 4 more years of this?<br><br>Initially, we all awoke the next morning wondering how<br>this little loser out of nowhere had by some miscarriage<br>of justice, been handed the highest office IN THE WORLD<br><br>...we just rolled our eyes and kinda' shrugged it off figuring; <br>"GRANTED, HE'S an idiot, but he SEEMS to be appointing<br>intelligent advisers.... BESIDES, How Much Harm Can He Do <br>In Just Four Years?" <br><br>Just to find on closer examination that the people he was<br>appointing were all tied to Oil Co., Chemical Co., Military<br>Equipment Manufacturers, Pharmaceutical Conglomerates,<br>that either had ALREADY been caught with their hand in the<br>cookie jar, or were maneuvering to clench deals to overthrow<br>regimes worldwide for profit.<br><br>As to "How much DAMAGE could be done in just 4 YEARS..."<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 08:47 AM

Why, were you planning on voting for him? <br><br><br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 09:28 AM

SURE! TWICE (at least) <br>We ALL Can!<br>Just use a GOP Voting Machine!<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 09:58 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Those sad smiles you're getting? It's because they can't believe how uninformed you are.<p><hr></blockquote><p>look who is talking! but anyway, maybe i'm uninformed, but at least i have manners <br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/18/04 10:09 AM

Here is a good read:<br>http://www.middleeast.org/premium/read.c...mp;standalone=1<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/18/04 10:29 AM

I'm sorry, I read the articles from that link and I fail to find any flip side or new information that I haven't already read. In fact most of it, except for the editorial at the top, was just a reprint of stuff from the AP and Washington Times.<br><br>Nothing real special about the site except it's anti-semitic implications by juxtopositioning Bush's picture with that of the Israeli flag (and the towers falling) implying some sort of world Bush-Jewish conspiracy regarding the 9-11 attacks. Nice.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: cherry

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/18/04 11:56 AM

I'm not sure that it is all together "anti-semitic" just against organized terrorism. It was just something I found in my day's travels through the internet. I found it interesting is all.<br><br>Try this one:<br>http://hrw.org/<br>A better source for news and information.<br>PEACE OUT!<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/18/04 12:37 PM

Didn't your post of that link originally say...<br>"There is a flip-side to every story"?<br>Then you had the link.<br><br>Implying that the link had some original thinking?<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: cherry

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/18/04 12:44 PM

I guess I changed my mind about that right? Maybe that is reason I deleted that statement within a few minutes of the post… seems bloody logical eh?<br><br>I said something about every coin has two sides, and whatever else it still says. Then I thought "nah" and erased it, I would imagine that is why we have the option to edit.<br><br>I am so sorry if I have offended you in anyway. Next time I will be more careful.<br><br><br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: AfterTenSoftware

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/18/04 01:00 PM

Well the post makes more sense without the statement, that is why I was confused. No offense taken. Thanks for the clarification.<br><br>Dean Davis
Posted by: cherry

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/18/04 01:21 PM

no problem<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: TheGreatDivide

Re: Al-Queda wins an election - 03/18/04 01:37 PM

Terrorism is the tool of corporate doctrine.<br>Chaos is the product they sell to us all.<br><br>Well, some foolish types fall for it.<br><br>Generation failure after generation regression.<br><br>Environmental damage has been a factor in political unrest. UN, 011304
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 02:00 PM

Manners? What are you talking about?<br><br>You say American is bad, our history is flawed, our President is a fool... Do you live in America? So, it's good manners to insult another persons country?<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 02:25 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Manners? What are you talking about?<br><br>You say American is bad, our history is flawed, our President is a fool... Do you live in America? So, it's good manners to insult another persons country?<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>i was so expecting this. it was a high ball, but you didn't really use it well.<br><br>you should've looked for an insulting post of mine from before or you should've said that at least you're honest and say what's on your heart without sugar coating, etc.<br><br>no, you said i'm insulting your country. if i'm not mistaken you can't insult a country, the same way as you can't insult a chair or an apple. in the worst case i insulted you by saying insulting things about your country. one can only insult living and feeling things. isn't that right? unless of course the strong patriotic feelings personified the country.<br><br>i think you either didn't read my posts, just skipped through them so fast that you didn't get the meaning of them or you are just fighting me for the fun of it. i didn't say America is bad, in fact i said that the opposite was/is true. i don't think your president is a fool, i think he's doing a great job for his close circle, but not necessarily for your good and certainly not for the good of the world.<br><br>the bottom line is that i think America is great country and i'm worried for it's present and it's future. i'm not worried for it because i live there (unfortunately). i worry for it the same way as i worry for the Statue of David. both of them have cracks recently and they need to be fixed urgently!<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 03:58 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>the bottom line is that i think America is great country and I'm worried for it's present and it's future. I'm not worried for it because i live there (unfortunately).<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>I said earlier that I agreed with everything you said here… <br>but I have changed my mind. Here is my argument, you <br>should worry. You are not an American, nor do you live <br>in America, but what America does affects the entire<br>world. We are far from an isolated nation. Our pollution<br>alone could, well, is choking the planet. <br><br>We are global citizens, we're Earthlings first. Members<br>of particular nations second. When, or if, the USA <br>destroys itself I am certain it will take the rest of the<br>world with it.<br><br>Your concerns are valid.<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 04:49 PM

Well, if we look at Nostradamus' predictions, only part of the world... <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 05:28 PM

Hate to drag down your America bashing, with facts 'again', but the 3rd world countries produce more pollution than anyone, and they won't do anything about it.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 07:28 PM

Acually, the US is one of the only countries that buys lots and lots of shares to pollute freely, and all the pollution is coming up north destroying the ozone layer on top of Canada, specially around the Great Lakes.<br><br>The US is just really lucky because of the currents that bring the pollution up north, so of course, they don't care about it.<br><br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 09:10 PM

[color:purple] BEEEEEEEP </font color=purple> Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. Please feel free to take the home version of our game when you leave.
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/18/04 09:33 PM

you learned how to use colors! And you had to pick purple! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: SacredBovine

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/19/04 12:27 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>3rd world countries produce more pollution than anyone, and they won't do anything about it<p><hr></blockquote><p>Won't, or can't? The wealthiest nation on earth has no such excuse.<br><br>What a pitiful argument you offer. Desperation, 'gary?<br><br>Moo?
Posted by: SacredBovine

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 12:44 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I know this may sound harsh, but if an 18-year old doesn't know that fighting in a war could mean severe injury or (gasp!) death, then you can't blame the system...<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, that does sound harsh. The reality is that 18 year old kids don't consider their mortality. That you don't take that truth into account in your argument shows a lack of honesty. You know as well as I that these are kids with testosterone aplenty and a serious maturity deficiency.<br><br>When your 18 year old son is looking down the wrong end of an RPG or you personally have been in the face of enemy fire, then you have a right to an opinion about the righteousness of sending boys to die in other lands.<br><br>Until then, I think you need to reconsider your stance. I would much rather that you who think it's OK to die in that other land do so than my 18 year old son. <br><br>Moo?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 06:22 AM

There is no reasoning with such an illogcal statement, like asking the mayor of New York City to be a firefighter and policemen since those jobs are dangerous. This "argument" is so devoid of logic, the rebels in the Matrix should have sent it to the computer core to crash it ;-). Not to mention the hipocracy of those who kneeled before draft-dodging Bill ;-).<br><br>The military is a volunteer service, 18 year olds are sentient, and everyone knows the military has one purpose to kill, and that the ultimate cost of service is possible death. If 18 year olds are old enough to realize rape, murder are wrong and stand trial for it if they commit it, old enough to vote for the office of the most powerful man in the world, old enough to be responsible for their own legal self, then they are old enough to sign-up for service. Enough with the emotional and illogical arguments. They would be laughed off if told to most officers. <br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/19/04 06:27 AM

Actually, the man is 100% on the dot, and you are jumping the gun. <br><br>First of all, I don't remember China and India being poor, respectivaly the second highest GDP, and fourth highest GDP nations, ranked by purchasing power parity. Second, even my socialists professors back in college stated that cleaning up China would result in greater environmental benefit than any change in US policy. It's like what would reduce the crime rate, cleaning up the urban area, or the suburan?<br><br>Finally, maybe if liberals stop opposing third world trade, and stopped supporting first world subsidies, the third world could grow like China and India have not by embracing holding hands liberal theology or taking welfare for their politicians but by embracing industry and entrepreneurship.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/19/04 06:57 AM

Look around you! 75% of the stuff you own says "Made in China" "Made in Indonesia" Made in hell.... and if you go to these countries to see who actually made those products, you will see that it's 10 year old kids with their moms working for 1$ a day. Yes, Fusk GDP and all that carp, go and see how the people live and then we will talk.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 06:59 AM

When your 18 year old son is looking down the wrong end of an RPG or you personally have been in the face of enemy fire, then you have a right to an opinion about the righteousness of sending boys to die in other lands.<br><br><br>I don't think I ever mentioned the morality of the situation- I was taking the stance that currently there's NO draft, and that there are plenty of other options for testosterone-laden 18-year-old boys than the armed services. <br><br>There's choice to be made, and I personally don't know anyone stupid enough to ignore the fact that they might be killed in combat when they sign those papers in the recruiting office.<br><br>"Just sign right there son....What? Fight in a war? Get killed? Oh no no no....we don't use those words around here son....we like to think of it as 'aggressive sight-seeing'"<br><br> <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: Anonymous

Are you kidding me? - 03/19/04 07:12 AM

Are you seriously saying the Chinese don't benefit from trade? I wish you would go to China and tell that to the face of a nation that was dirt poor three decades ago, and now their GDP per head is $4,700 from a PPP perspective. I wish you would tell that to China's new middle class of people who own homes, and drive cars. I wish you told that the the middle classes ability to send their child now to school, instead of the factory. I wish you told that to a nation that just sent a guy into space, something even Canada hasn't done yet (atleast Canada by herself). I also wish you told that to China's political environment, although definately not free, no where near the 80s.<br><br>China is the world's finest example on how embracing trade, industry and capitalism can lead to tremendous economic growth. Keep this "white-man guilty" stuff for San Francisco, and let the second and third world grow through reason and economics, not emotion and welfare. First world countries can afford the mistake of socialism, the second and third world can't.<br><br>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/19/04 07:14 AM

I can't do anything to please you, can I. Oh wait... I wasn't trying. <br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: Are you kidding me? - 03/19/04 07:20 AM

I never said Chinese in general do not benefit from free trade! They totally do, they own half the products in the World. Kinda like Microsoft. But if you wanna know how the "middle class" live and the every day Joe, go and see. Look at your nike shoes and see. <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/19/04 07:35 AM

Okay, I can see that you are another of the the lazy types who have to be spoon feed an education rather than going out and researching this stuff on your own. <br><br>The answer is 'won't'. The US extends financial and resource aid to countries that want, but can't afford, to improve their envirormental controls. They refuse to take the aid. And before you yelp out yet another uneducated question, it's not just the US that does this. <br><br>
Posted by: rigger

Re: I am not a soldier! - 03/19/04 08:06 AM

After reading all of these posts. As a former U.S. Soldier and Marine. I would prefer a thousand al quedas in front of me. Than a thousand of these haters behind me.....<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: Right on… - 03/19/04 10:38 AM

I hate to rehash this thread but you do have a point *SacredBovine*.<br><br>Here's to "pitiful arguments"…<br><br>Where's the links??? <br><br>Here is more information supporting my statements:<br><br>Pollution Problems in the Third World<br>Often, rich Western countries take advantage of the dilemma of Third World countries. They dump garbage and hazardous waste in developing countries. First World companies might also build plants, which emit considerable pollution, in Third World nations to avoid the regulations these companies would face at home.<br><br>Ecuadoreans sue U.S. oil company over pollution in Amazon<br>"It is irreparable damage," he said outside the courthouse, as protesters read testimonials from cancer victims. "Everything has been damaged. People have died. Everything has been lost."<br><br>Swamps and streams are frequently covered with a thin layer of oil. The region's inhabitants complain of stomach cramps, sore throats, and difficult-to-treat skin rashes, which they blame on the pollution.<br><br>Ricardo Beija, a vice president and legal adviser for the oil company, told reporters the damage caused by drilling was "minimal" and "normal for any operation."<br><br>WTO— not just the U.S.<br>Huge oil, gas, mining, pharmaceutical and agri-business multinationals keep expanding their operations at all costs, creating more and more pollution. Their sole goal - to make money, not to take care of our planet and health, now or for future generations.<br><br>http://www.afn.org/~govern/free_trade.html<br>At issue are such concerns as pollution, pesticides, health and work standards. Since most third-world nations are more interested in agricultural and industrial development than in pollution, these countries permit industries (often American owned) to defile the entire planet. Pesticides, which are not permitted for use in the U.S., such as DDT, are used freely in many of the countries exporting fruits and vegetables for use in our homes. Nor do you have any idea of what health standards (if any) are enforced on imported meats. And whether the products you buy in the department stores were made by child labor or slave labor is not indicated on the label, but in all cases it was done for a negligible labor cost.<br><br>It all comes down to the simple fact that American companies have moved overseas, not out of the goodness of their hearts to help the downtrodden third-world peoples, but to exploit them. It is these industrialists, and the bankers who finance them, who pay off the ruling families and cliques who then permit the abuse of their citizens. Very little money, if any, ever winds up in improving either the standard of living of their citizens or for improvement of the infrastructure of their country.<br><br>http://www.globalwarming.org/Kyoto/agree.htm<br><br> Democracy Now<br><br>Report: EPA Rules Changes Will Lead to More Pollution<br>A new study by the Congressional General Accounting Office found that recent rules changes by the Environmental Protection Agency will lead to the release annually of 1.4 million tons more air pollution spread over 12 states.<br><br>http://www.enn.com/news/2004-03-09/s_13820.asp<br><br>________________________________________________________<br><br>Feel free to let me know if you need more information ok.<br><br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: skuldugary

Re: Right on… - 03/19/04 11:02 AM

Sadly, Cherry, you don't hate to rehash this post. We've moved on, but finding new ways to be negitive is the only thing you have going for yourself.<br><br>Face it. You're only posting here because you don't like me. Sorry kiddo, but I'm so done with you. It's not even that I disagree with your position on issues, but you're real undoing is that you're painfully mundane. Stay here and play in the muck and mire. It's all yours. I'm moving on to more positive things. Enjoy posting your crimes against 'fill in the blank' by the a. corporate empire, b. black ops government, c. ugly american, d. men, e. white man, or g. all the above.<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: Right on… - 03/19/04 11:28 AM

Seriously, what is wrong with you? You really have problems…<br>"You're only posting here because you don't like me."<br>I don't care about you, I don't know you! Leave me alone <br>if you don't like me! (we're back in 6th grade again!)<br><br>Also I am not sure how calling attention to important issues<br>that effect the world and all of its inhabitants is being "negative".<br>I would like to call to EVERYONE'S attention that we need to change.<br>Also it helps me with my research and (see below)<br><br>I did read where you wrote that you care about your children,<br>yet you seem to disregard all that would protect them and<br>their future. Just go on being a good american daddy eh?<br>Support the military that takes money from their education,<br>take your kids to {corporate establishment} for a nice healthy <br>lunch of antibiotics and growth hormones. Educate yourself<br>for the good of your children and their future world.<br><br>I am doing it for my child, and for yours.<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: cherry

Re: Broken Link - 03/19/04 01:25 PM

Edit:<br>http://www.greenpeace.org/international_en/campaigns/intro?campaign_id=4003<br>see_More information:<br>click_Threatening the Environment<br>Huge oil, gas, mining, pharmaceutical and agri-business multinationals keep expanding their operations at all costs, creating more and more pollution. Their sole goal - to make money, not to take care of our planet and health, now or for future generations.<br><br>Thanks Celandine!<br><br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: SacredBovine

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 03:54 PM

The fact is that the military with all its weapons and gung-ho lifestyle is attractive to a significant percentage of testosterone-laden youth, in the same way xtreme motocross and other xtreme sports attracts them. It's a fact of life. If the military relied on 40 year olds for its rank and file, it would be a very small military indeed. As we age, our sense of mortality and hopefully our maturity increases and we are more likely to weigh the consequences of our actions.<br><br>Is there some doubt about that? Do you doubt that armies the world over rely on this sense of immortality in order to exist at all.<br><br>If you spoke to the young Ranger survivors following the Mogadishu conflict, do you really believe they would so keen to re-enlist having tasted the reality of combat?<br><br>As to the morality, taking advantage of a young man's immaturity and diminished sense of mortality and exploiting that in order to field an army could be seen as immoral. I find I am less inclined to support the notion of sending our youth to die as I age. I think that is a sign of maturity and more balanced testosterone levels.<br><br>My guess is that you believe it's something else.<br><br><br><br>Moo?
Posted by: G4Dualie

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 05:48 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Is there some doubt about that? Do you doubt that armies the world over rely on this sense of immortality in order to exist at all.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes. Ask just about any military person and they would probably tell you they are prepared to give their life for their country.<br><br>In the Marines it was understood - job one was to make the enemy die for their country.<br><br>Those of us who survived and stayed around long enough, rose through the ranks (the seniors of the rank and file) found it necessary to temper and hone the skills of the wild-eyed youth of our military. I've raised some good ones.<br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in<br>the country,"<br>--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC.</font color=blue>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 06:10 PM

I agree most whole heartedly.<br><br>For the most part, these young people<br>(and sometimes not so young people)<br>don't join to die, they join to do what<br>they feel is right. (God Bless Them).<br>That makes it so much more poignant<br>when the find out down the road, that<br>they'd been lied to.<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: cherry

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 06:13 PM

From Democracy Now<br><br>28 soldiers on leave from Iraq refuse to return.<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 07:23 PM

And you're pretty far off the mark, in your very short time in this forum... under *that* particular monicker, anyway...<br><br>Since you've basically admitted you're NOT 18 years of age and have yet to mention any hint of military action, I'm wondering how you can sit back and profess to know or understand anyone's reasons for joining the service, or speak for someone of that age group as it relates to such matters.... And I'm a little confused & dismayed at your suggestion that the military is reeling in hordes of thrill-seekers with promises of some sort of 'rush' from having bullets whizz by their heads... <br><br>It's obvious that both of us were, at one time, testosterone-charged teenagers looking for an outlet for our energies. But we made different choices in our lives. A choice that isn't always available, but last time I checked they weren't drawing people's names out of a hat to go over to Iraq...<br><br>It's amusing the way you've basically been twisting my words and ideas this whole time into some sort of gung-ho, pro-war stance, which I don't believe I ever came close to doing myself. I think you've got me mixed up with the right-wing hardliners around here. <br><br>War is evil, and war claims many many lives who might have gone on to do something else in this world. But as long as someone has the CHOICE of whether or not they'd want to go and fight, then I can't feel anything greater than sympathy for a life lost and the regret that war exists at all.<br><br>You're preaching to the choir, Cow-Boy.<br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: cherry

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 07:29 PM

Tomorrow.<br><br>Hey, anyone want to baby-sit for my son?<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 07:33 PM

Damn, that's when my NRA meeting is...<br><br>Can I get a raincheck? <br><br>[color:red]You slap my back, I'll slap yours!</font color=red>
Posted by: cherry

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 07:36 PM

Yeah, I'm going to a big Nascar rally. I guess peace on Earth will have to wait!<br><br>[color:yellow]a candle is not there to illuminate itself</font color=yellow>
Posted by: G4Dualie

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 03/19/04 08:21 PM

Staff Sergeant Camilo Mejia the most notable of those listed as AWOL may find himself facing confinement if he is found guilty of desertion. But, more importantly I'd be surprised if he wasn't deported, along with the already some 45,000 deportees in the last year, most of them legal residents!<br><br>He possesses Permanent Residency but that could be in jeopardy under the Criminal Alien Removal Act (CLEAR).<br><br>I imagine he'll be vilified by the government and the press and will get no sympathy from the American people, especially regular military. You see, he's National Guard and probably considered a second class soldier.<br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in<br>the country,"<br>--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC.</font color=blue>
Posted by: MacGizmo

Re: This makes no sense! Again back to economics - 07/26/06 07:49 PM

Hi Sean! <br><br>CreativeGuy for daily tips, tricks and commentary on all things graphic design.