"Da Real State of the Union"

Posted by: cherry

"Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 07:19 AM

A friend sent this to me a few days ago (obviously), I thought I should share it here too.<br><br>Message:<br>Today the President gives his annual address. As the election battle begins, how does his first term add up? <br><br>20 January 2004 <br><br>232: Number of American combat deaths in Iraq <br>between May 2003 and January 2004 <br><br>501: Number of American servicemen to die in Iraq <br>from the beginning of the war - so far <br><br>0: Number of American combat deaths in Germany <br>after the Nazi surrender to the Allies in May 1945 <br><br>0: Number of coffins of dead soldiers returning <br>home from Iraq that the Bush administration has <br>allowed to be photographed <br><br>0: Number of funerals or memorials that President <br>Bush has attended for soldiers killed in Iraq <br><br>100: Number of fund-raisers attended by Bush or <br>Vice-President Dick Cheney in 2003 <br><br>13: Number of meetings between Bush and Tony <br>Blair since he became President <br><br>10 million: Estimated number of people worldwide <br>who took to the streets in opposition to the invasion <br>of Iraq, setting an all-time record for simultaneous protest <br><br>2: Number of nations that Bush has attacked and <br>taken over since coming into the White House <br><br>9.2: Average number of American soldiers wounded <br>in Iraq each day since the invasion in March last year <br><br>1.6: Average number of American soldiers killed <br>in Iraq per day since hostilities began <br><br>16,000: Approximate number of Iraqis killed since <br>the start of war <br><br>10,000: Approximate number of Iraqi civilians <br>killed since the beginning of the conflict <br><br>$100 billion: Estimated cost of the war in Iraq <br>to American citizens by the end of 2003 <br><br>$13 billion: Amount other countries have <br>committed towards rebuilding Iraq (much of it in loans) <br>as of 24 October <br><br>36%: Increase in the number of desertions from <br>the US army since 1999 <br><br>92%: Percentage of Iraq's urban areas that had <br>access to drinkable water a year ago <br><br>60%: Percentage of Iraq's urban areas that have <br>access to drinkable water today <br><br>32%: Percentage of the bombs dropped on Iraq this <br>year that were not precision-guided <br><br>1983: The year in which Donald Rumsfeld gave <br>Saddam Hussein a pair of golden spurs <br><br>45%: Percentage of Americans who believed in <br>early March 2003 that Saddam Hussein was involved in <br>the 11 September attacks on the US <br><br>$127 billion: Amount of US budget surplus in the <br>year that Bush became President in 2001 <br><br>$374 billion: Amount of US budget deficit in the <br>fiscal year for 2003 <br><br>1st: This year's deficit is on course to be the <br>biggest in United States history <br><br>$1.58 billion: Average amount by which the US <br>national debt increases each day <br><br>$23,920: Amount of each US citizen's share of the <br>national debt as of 19 January 2004 <br><br>1st: The record for the most bankruptcies filed <br>in a single year (1.57 million) was set in 2002 <br><br>10: Number of solo press conferences that Bush <br>has held since beginning his term. His father had <br>managed 61 at this point in his administration, and Bill <br>Clinton 33 <br><br>1st: Rank of the US worldwide in terms of <br>greenhouse gas emissions per capita <br><br>$113 million: Total sum raised by the Bush-Cheney <br>2000 campaign, setting a record in American <br>electoral history <br><br>$130 million: Amount raised for Bush's re-<br>election campaign so far <br><br>$200m: Amount that the Bush-Cheney campaign is <br>expected to raise in 2004 <br><br>$40m: Amount that Howard Dean, the top fund-<br>raiser among the nine Democratic presidential hopefuls, <br>amassed in 2003 <br><br>28: Number of days holiday that Bush took last <br>August, the second longest holiday of any president in US <br>history (Recordholder: Richard Nixon) <br><br>13: Number of vacation days the average American <br>worker receives each year <br><br>3: Number of children convicted of capital <br>offences executed in the US in 2002. America is only <br>country openly to acknowledge executing children <br><br>1st: As Governor of Texas, George Bush executed <br>more prisoners (152) than any governor in modern US <br>history <br><br>2.4 million: Number of Americans who have lost <br>their jobs during the three years of the Bush administration <br><br>221,000: Number of jobs per month created since <br>Bush's tax cuts took effect. He promised the measure <br>would add 306,000 <br><br>1,000: Number of new jobs created in the entire <br>country in December. Analysts had expected a gain of <br>130,000 <br><br>1st: This administration is on its way to <br>becoming the first since 1929 (Herbert Hoover) to preside over an overall loss of jobs during its complete term in office <br><br>9 million: Number of US workers unemployed in <br>September 2003 <br><br>80%: Percentage of the Iraqi workforce now unemployed <br><br>55%: Percentage of the Iraqi workforce unemployed <br>before the war <br><br>43.6 million: Number of Americans without health <br>insurance in 2002 <br><br>130: Number of countries (out of total of 191 recognised <br>by the United Nations) with an American military presence <br><br>40%: Percentage of the world's military spending <br>for which the US is responsible <br><br>$10.9 million: Average wealth of the members of <br>Bush's original 16-person cabinet <br><br>88%: Percentage of American citizens who will <br>save less than $100 on their 2006 federal taxes as a <br>result of 2003 cut in capital gains and dividends taxes <br><br>$42,000: Average savings members of Bush's <br>cabinet are expected to enjoy this year as a result in <br>the cuts in capital gains and dividends taxes <br><br>$42,228: Median household income in the US in 2001 <br><br>$116,000: Amount Vice-President Cheney is <br>expected to save each year in taxes <br><br>44%: Percentage of Americans who believe the <br>President's economic growth plan will mostly <br>benefit the wealthy <br><br>700: Number of people from around the world the <br>US has incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba <br><br>1st: George W Bush became the first American <br>president to ignore the Geneva Conventions by <br>refusing to allow inspectors access to US-held <br>prisoners of war <br><br>+6%: Percentage change since 2001 in the number <br>of US families in poverty <br><br>1951: Last year in which a quarterly rise in US <br>military spending was greater than the one the previous <br>spring <br><br>54%: Percentage of US citizens who believe Bush <br>was legitimately elected to his post <br><br>1st: First president to execute a federal <br>prisoner in the past 40 years. Executions are typically ordered by separate states and not at federal level <br><br>9: Number of members of Bush's defence policy <br>board who also sit on the corporate board of, or <br>advise, at least one defence contractor <br><br>35: Number of countries to which US has suspended <br>military assistance after they failed to sign <br>agreements giving Americans immunity from prosecution before the International Criminal Court <br><br>$300 million: Amount cut from the federal <br>programme that provides subsidies to poor families so they <br>can heat their homes <br><br>$1 billion: Amount of new US military aid <br>promised Israel in April 2003 to offset the "burdens" of <br>the US war on Iraq <br><br>58 million: Number of acres of public lands Bush <br>has opened to road building, logging and drilling <br><br>200: Number of public-health and environmental <br>laws Bush has attempted to downgrade or weaken <br><br>29,000: Number of American troops - which is <br>close to the total of a whole army division - to have <br>either been killed, wounded, injured or become so ill as to <br>require evacuation from Iraq, according to the Pentagon <br><br>90%: Percentage of American citizens who said <br>they approved of the way George Bush was handling his job <br>as president when asked on 26 September, 2001 <br><br>53%: Percentage of American citizens who approved <br>of the way Bush was handling his job as president <br>when asked on 16 January, 2004 <br><br>Sources: Vanity Fair magazine, Harper's Index, <br>Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, US <br>Army (Washington), US Department of Defence, <br>Iraqbodycount.net, Citizens for Tax Justice, <br>Bureau of Economic Analysis (Washington), New York Times/<br>CBS News Poll (NYC), US Department of Commerce, <br>Cap Gemini Ernst & Young (NYC), Coalition <br>Provisional Authority (Baghdad), World Health <br>Organisation (Geneva), Office of Management and <br>Budget (Washington), Centre for Responsive <br>Politics (Washington), Bush-Cheney '04, Inc (Arlington, <br>Va), Election Systems & Software (Omaha), United States <br>Central Command (Tampa) <br><br>http://www.amnesty.org/<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 07:21 AM

only two words for that.. pertinent information <br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 07:40 AM

53%: Percentage of American citizens who approved <br>of the way Bush was handling his job as president <br>when asked on 16 January, 2004 <br><br><br>Still enough to re-elect the guy, though...<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 07:44 AM

depends, if 53% actually vote, maybe.<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 07:52 AM

But we still have time to change that. Here, this is from move on:<br> <br>It’s clear that President Bush is a divider. Help us build a uniting vision -- a 100% America plan. <br><br> Then please forward this email to your friends and colleagues.<br> Dear MoveOn member, <br><br>In Tuesday’s State of the Union address, President Bush led with war and terror – which wasn’t surprising. It’ll certainly be a big theme for an administration that has used fear again and again for partisan political gain. The agenda is clear: permanent war, permanent abridgement of freedom, permanent tax cuts for big campaign contributors. Worse, the right has clearly decided to pursue a strategy of dividing America. In his speech last night, Bush tried to open a new front in the culture wars, calling for a constitutional amendment to “protect the sanctity of marriage.” We have to ask: from whom? <br><br>But what was clearly missing in the speech was any vision for the future of our country, which probably explains why early reports show that the speech left people cold. Where are we going as a nation? What’s the plan for fixing health care? What’s the plan for getting out of Iraq? What’s the plan for staunching the hemorrhage of high quality manufacturing jobs, and now even service and professional positions? What’s the plan for stopping the flood of red ink from irresponsible tax cuts? <br><br>Together, we can do better. It’s a New Year – time for a new start. We need your help. <br><br>We’re asking MoveOn members to sign up to help develop a real, uniting American vision – a 100% America plan. To be a part of this work, go to: <br><br>  http://www.moveon.org/mission/ " target="_blank">http:// http://www.moveon.org/mission/ <br><br>In this coming year, candidates for President will be looking for great ideas that can truly inspire Americans to build a positive future for us and for our children. Last year, we asked MoveOn members to talk to each other about values and key issues facing the country. We got 100,000 pages of interview feedback from thousands of people across the nation. <br><br>What are we for? The themes were universal. Americans want true security based on working with allies and the rule of law – not an American empire. Americans demand corporate and individual responsibility – greed is not good and we’re all responsible to future generations. Americans want everyone to have a real opportunity to do well in our country and live the middle class dream – we will not be divided into haves and have-nots, or by race or gender or lifestyle. Americans believe that we are the beacon of freedom and democracy – the Bill of Rights is non-negotiable and democracy is not a partisan game. The themes that emerge are: Freedom, Opportunity, Responsibility and Security. <br><br>As a start, we’ve been collecting ideas for possible “strategic initiatives” based on these themes. To suggest your own ideas, and to be part of building a 100% America plan, go to: <br><br>   http://www.moveon.org/mission/ <br><br>The Bush administration has cynically used fear to drive its special interest agenda. But Americans won’t be cowed by fear and we won’t be divided by cynical politicians. <br><br>Now is the time for us to build a positive future -- together. <br><br>Sincerely,<br> - Adam, Carrie, Eli, James, Joan, Noah, Peter, Wes, and Zack<br>   The MoveOn.org Team<br>   January 21st, 2004 <br><br>P.S. For excellent in-depth coverage and analysis of the State of the Union speech, go to today's issue of the Progress Report.<br><br>
Posted by: Michael

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 09:14 AM

You have a lot of fun friends <br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 09:38 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>fun friends<p><hr></blockquote><p>yes, they are "fun" people who are intelligent as well politically and socially conscious. <br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:00 AM

<sigh><br><br>Well, I've been lurking these forums for quite some time. But I finally decided to join and post today. A lot of useful information, and unfortunately, a lot of political crap. I know the purpose is to discuss Macs as well as other issues, but I have to tell you.... the Bush bashing is getting very tiresome. It really is. Why do people post this stuff just to annoy others?<br><br>Just give it a rest will ya? Seriously. You don't like Bush. We get it. We really do. We don't need a new Bush bashing post (or three) every day.<br><br>Let's talk about less controversial, more fun things, like Apple and their great products!<br><br>Scott<br><br>
Posted by: bird

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:14 AM

Well thank you Cherry <br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:24 AM

Skew the numbers any way you want.<br><br>How about the number of innocent Iraquis murdered, tortured, and jailed before for the war? And after?<br><br>How about the number of active terrorist training camps before and after the war?<br><br>How about the number of terrorist attacks on US soil since the Patriot Act? (another thing hard and fast Democrats are against)<br><br>How many soldiers funerals has Democratic front-runner AND war supporter did John Kerry gone to?<br><br>See what I mean? The numbers ARE very slanted, you can't deny that. The President's accomplishments are clearly left out of that list. I could go on an on about dozens of facts and figures that would put Bush in a good light too.<br><br>Look, I'm an independent. I like ideas on both sides of the aisle. But carpetbombing EVERYTHING George Bush does is just ignorant and childish - and it really hurts the value of this forum.<br><br>I feel sorry for those of you who get a warm & fuzzy feeling every time you bash the President of our great United States.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:30 AM

Oh, you think the Bush-bashing is bad HERE?<br><br>Try this place<br><br>I think you'll find the MM lounge looks like a Republican convention compared to there...<br><br>
Posted by: JonnyCat

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:37 AM

<br>Bush bashing is done mostly by neurotic people with no lives outside the forums. I'm happy none of these people live next to me and knock on my door daily <br><br>[color:blue]All your sock puppets are belong to us</font color=blue>
Posted by: bird

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:38 AM

Welcome, and a big how do you do to you! <br>My tip of the hat was to this ,You have a lot of fun friends, which Cherry responded to with this yes, they are "fun" people who are intelligent as well politically and socially conscious. That's like a smile response post directed at her!! Kidding, humor. How you get skewing the # with a post back to me , well I didn't post any # to Skew with, but besides that!! Howdy!<br> If references to Bush and or any political postings upset you, just read the header and pass over it, <br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:38 AM

Well, I'm glad there are some level-headed people in these forums. I was getting nervous.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:39 AM

If references to Bush and or any political postings upset you, just read the header and pass over it,<br><br>Or just learn who does all that bush-bashing and avoid their posts...<br><br>*COUGH* TGD *COUGH*<br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by DaddyMac on 01/22/04 01:39 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:39 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Try this place<p><hr></blockquote><p>NOOOOOOO .. must .. close .. portal .. before .. GAAAAHHHH!!<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:41 AM

Uhm, bashing politics and dictators makes the long work days go by faster the same way you like to bash about our bashing. <br><br>They are just opinions, and these opinions develop knowledge on how different people think about the world today. If we didn't have this variety of opinions we would just be 8 hour day working robots paying 30% of our taxes and not knowing where they are going.<br><br>Welcome to the bash if you decide to stay. <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:41 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Or just learn who does all that bush-bashing and avoid their posts...<p><hr></blockquote><p>That reminds me, a great place to eat is here<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:43 AM

Excuse me, I feel another coughing attack coming on..<br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:43 AM

Yeah, sorry about that Bird. I didn't intend to reply to your post. My mistake.<br><br>But it's tough to skip the headher, when it's as generic as "Da Real State of the Union". No indication that it's a Bush-bashing entry.<br><br>I guess my point is, I just don't think Bush-bashing, Clinton-bashing (Bill or Hillary), Michael Jackson-bashing, or whatever, belong in these forums. It's just aggrivates 1/2 of the people who read it, and why would you want to do that to people in these forums who share a common love of all things Apple?<br><br><br>Scott <br>(well, Maybe the Michael Jackson bashing is OK)<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:45 AM

Thanks for the numbers Cherry. Awesome report.. I copied it in an e-mail and sent it out to everyone on my list. :)<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:48 AM

Well, enjoy spreaking half-truths, and contributing to the misinformation.<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:53 AM

I have no problem with the bashing, as long as it's taken in stride. It's the condescending, better-than-thou, "don't question the Five Elders" attitudes of that other forum that do not belong. This place is much friendlier. And the babes are hotter, too.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:53 AM

well thank you, I certainly will.<br><br>OK, who are you really? new name new identity, but I seem to recognize the tone.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:56 AM

And the babes are hotter, too.<br><br>We have different babes?<br><br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:57 AM

Shhh! I'm trying to schmooze them!!!<br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:00 AM

Whether it "belongs" in this forum isn't really the issue. We have another forum here at MacMinute specifically designed for JUST Mac stuff. If you notice this is called the Lounge. Anything goes (almost).<br><br>I understand your point of view, and if you stick around you'll see these things come and go in cycles. After a while folks get tired of reading and writing these political threads that usually have the same opinions hashed over and over (point taken).<br><br>But.... the reason they keep coming up is because we are constantly thinking about it. Politics touches your life... a lot! There probably is and will be a lot of political threads this year because its an election year and this particular administration really polarizes people.<br><br>As others have already said, stick around and pick and choose your threads. There are a lot of people here that simply don't get involved in any political thread, even when its completely docile. As the title reads, "Grab a cup of your favorite brew and come on in." Talk about what YOU want to talk about. <br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:01 AM

Gee, I know right, Amnesty International– how "just ignorant and childish"<br><br>What are you talking about man! You don't have to read my posts. You know, I am just passing along information from respected sources. What numbers did I "skew"? <br><br>I've posted this stuff in other places too. If it changes one person's mind, then I am happy. BTW, you're welcome Bird. Some people around here are like minded and do appreciate the info.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The President's accomplishments are clearly left out of that list. I could go on an on about dozens of facts and figures that would put Bush in a good light too.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Honestly, I can not think of one thing. A lot of these "issues" do hit close to home for me and many other people. And besides looking at the numbers, I do think of the real lives lost and I do not understand why that is necessary.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>How about the number of innocent Iraquis murdered, tortured, and jailed before for the war? And after?<p><hr></blockquote><p>"and after", you said it yourself.<br><br>I am also independent, I am not sure when I said other wise.<br><br>http://web.amnesty.org/pages/usa-070104-action-eng<br><br>Whatever, this is boring. I won't change how you feel, don't open a post with my name on it– so sorry to bug you. <br><br>Hopefully next year at this time things will be better and all of us will be able to afford cool new machines and gadgets by apple.<br><br>
Posted by: squareman

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:03 AM

To those that like Bush, it's Bush bashing.<br><br>To those that don't like Bush, it's evidence to support a theory and rally the troops.<br><br>And to others of us, it's just data (in this particular case) to apply meaning how we see fit.<br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:04 AM

Trust me, I am new. I've been reading the forums for a while, but finally decided to register.<br><br>Do I sound like somebody in your past? Mabye somebody that you may have drove off the boards with your blind hatred of everything that Bush does?<br><br>I swear, George Bush could rescue a baby from a burning building, and poeple would find SOME reason to complain about it.<br><br>Why can't we just make this a friendly place/<br><br>
Posted by: bird

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:04 AM

Mail this too!! Lol!! Sorry I couldn't help myself, all that talk about skewing #'s, ... I was possessed!! <br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:09 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> I swear, George Bush could rescue a baby from a burning building, and poeple would find SOME reason to complain about it. <p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Are you talkin about the same person who ran away from completing his army enrollment? The same person who tried to climb a tree when he saw a mouse but couldn't because he skipped all his PE classes in HS? hmmm, since you love the guy so much, why don't you come up with some arguments of GOOD things he has done in the last 4 years! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:09 AM

You're a NEOCON!!! I knew it!!!<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: JonnyCat

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:11 AM

Anybody that rubs the French the wrong way is tops in my books <br><br>[color:blue]All your sock puppets are belong to us</font color=blue>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:12 AM

Please explain JonnyCat. Why the argument against french? I do not seem to understand.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: squareman

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:13 AM

F the English. Vive la France! <br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:13 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Bush bashing is done mostly by neurotic people with no lives outside the forums.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Umm, is that a personal attack? <br>I don't think you should have any reason to say something like that.<br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:15 AM

You "skewed" the nubmers by leaving out a lot of figures that acutally make a case for the war. WMD or otherwise.<br><br>And tens of thousands of innocent Iraquis murdered before the war, versus the islolated attacks that are happening now? It's not a contest. And things are getting better over there almost every day.<br><br>Cherry, I found a lot of your numbers interesting, I really did. And I don't doubt that most (if not all) of them are accurate. My first cousin is serving over there right now. I think it's horrible that our servicemen are still dying in this effort, but that's the cost of being the world's only superpower.<br><br>Perhaps if you were a true independent, you would've better selected your data set to include numbers that also show the progress we are making in addition to the number you provided.<br><br>
Posted by: JonnyCat

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:16 AM

think of it as Bush bashing bashing. Besides it's just an opinion <br><br>And I did say mostly. No need to get defensive.<br><br>[color:blue]All your sock puppets are belong to us</font color=blue>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:18 AM

Defensive you say? You're lucky I am in a good mood… wink-wink!<br><br>
Posted by: squareman

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:23 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You "skewed" the nubmers by leaving out a lot of figures that acutally make a case for the war. WMD or otherwise.<br><br>And tens of thousands of innocent Iraquis murdered before the war, versus the islolated attacks that are happening now? It's not a contest. And things are getting better over there almost every day.<p><hr></blockquote><p>The ends do not justify the means. The reasons that we went into this war were simply fabrications and now people are trying to find the "good" in it all. Sure there's some perks, but there's plenty of bad—like all of the US troops that had to die in a war that should have never started. There's plenty of other ruthless, murdering dictators out there, but we're not rushing to change those regimes.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> I think it's horrible that our servicemen are still dying in this effort, but that's the cost of being the world's only superpower.<p><hr></blockquote><p>That's a complete fallacy. It is not the US's responsibility to the be end-word on everything, lest we be seen by the rest of the world as the 2-ton bully that no one will respect—especially when we lie to get our way (like to justify starting this war in the first place).<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:23 AM

When Mr. Clinton was in office, the bashing went that a way. Seems to me that anyone who is in office, or who wants to be in office, is subject to what you call bashing. As squareman says, whether it's bashing or not depends on your political viewpoint. Your first post announced that viewpoint. Substantiate it and get into a discussion, if you want. But IMHO telling people what they should or should not post is . . . well, I don't want to characterize it.<br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:23 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>since you love the guy so much, why don't you come up with some arguments of GOOD things he has done in the last 4 years!<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Like I said, I'm an independent. I like some things Bush does. I don't like others. But I don't have a blanket love/hate for any polician.<br><br>Good things he's done? Well, the first thing you should do, is listed and/or read the State of the Union. I have no doubt that some of that was embellished, but do you HONESTLY think everything he said was a lie?<br><br>Here are some off the top of my head:<br>- My taxes are lower.<br>- The economy is quicly recovering<br>- Sadaam is no longer violating the human rights of others, and is no longer a threat to his neighbors<br>- The worldwide terrorism network has been significantly weakened<br><br>Now I'm sure you can somehow spin each one of these things around and either a) not give Bush the credit, but some other Democrat, or b) look at any of these as the glass is half-empty and discuss some negative side effect. That's OK. I expect that from people who think EVERYTHING the man does is horrible.<br><br>Are you telling me that you cannot think of ONE thing he's done well since he's been in office? <br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:25 AM

Your statements are "facts." Someone's response is "spin."<br><br>To quote Mr. Spock, "Interesting."<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:27 AM

Again, what are you talking about man?<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Cherry, I found a lot of your numbers interesting,<p><hr></blockquote><p>hi,<br>Sources: Vanity Fair magazine, Harper's Index, <br>Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, US <br>Army (Washington), US Department of Defence, <br>Iraqbodycount.net, Citizens for Tax Justice, <br>Bureau of Economic Analysis (Washington), New York Times/<br>CBS News Poll (NYC), US Department of Commerce, <br>Cap Gemini Ernst & Young (NYC), Coalition <br>Provisional Authority (Baghdad), World Health <br>Organisation (Geneva), Office of Management and <br>Budget (Washington), Centre for Responsive <br>Politics (Washington), Bush-Cheney '04, Inc (Arlington, <br>Va), Election Systems & Software (Omaha), United States <br>Central Command (Tampa)<br><br>I<br>WAS<br>JUST<br>PASSING<br>INFORMATION<br>THAT<br>WAS<br>SENT<br>FROM<br>A FRIEND<br>OF<br>MINE<br><br>Who are you talking to? Read it, believe it, don't believe it, print it out and use it for you toilet roll– it does not matter to me– and have a fine day!<br><br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:29 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The ends do not justify the means. The reasons that we went into this war were simply fabrications and now people are trying to find the "good" in it all.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Really? Sadaam did not violate the UN mandates for 12 years? Yes, WMDs were PART of the justification, but not the whole story. And so far as the WMDs go, there was all sorts of intelligence from both the US and British sides (as well as a few others, if I recall), as well as Sadaam's consistent reluctance to allow inspections that would give any REASONABLE person strong suspicions that they were working on a WMD program. But again, WMDs are only part of the justification.<br><br>If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you would probably be right in susbpecting that it was a duck.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:33 AM

Yes, I could turn around everything that you have listed, but then again, it would be arguments that you must have already heard.<br><br>What would you call a person that hands you 10$ out of nowhere? Seriously, what would you call that person?<br><br><br>Now, what would you call a person that hands you 10$ with one hand while taking your car keys and your wallet, and your job with the other? <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:35 AM

Cherry, when I said I found your numbers interesting, I didn't mean that in a sarcastic way at all. I thought a lot of that was indeed interesting. Seriously. That's why I wrote RIGHT AFTER THAT SENTENCE:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And I don't doubt that most (if not all) of them are accurate.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Did you even bother to read the rest of that post? Or did you just see a sentence you thought you didn't like, and fly off the handle with a response?<br><br><br>
Posted by: squareman

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:35 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Really?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Really.<br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:39 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Really.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Gee, that's quite an informative response, squareman.<br><br>But you conveniently didn't bother replying to my question about the 12 years of UN voilations, or the intelligence from mutilnational sourses about WMDs, and how that may or may not justify removing him from power.<br><br>
Posted by: azande

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:39 AM

<qoute.To quote Mr. Spock, "Interesting."</quote><br><br>Indeed. <br>Thanks Cherry, very interesting numbers! I'll make sure I'll pass on the "distorted truth" to others.<br>Unfortunately, not being American, we cannot make a difference directly next year.<br><br>Az.<br>That which is dreamed can never be lost, can never be undreamed. - The Sandman
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:39 AM

What would you call a person that hands you 10$ out of nowhere? Seriously, what would you call that person?<br><br><br>"Buddy"?<br><br>
Posted by: MattMac112

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:40 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The reasons that we went into this war were simply fabrications and now people are trying to find the "good" in it all.<p><hr></blockquote><p>May I cut in?<br><br>"Thre's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our Allies" - Howard Dean, September 2002<br><br> "I agree with President Bush -- he has said that Saddam Hussein is evil. And he is. (Hussein) is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver. He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War. He has murdered dissidents and refused to comply with his obligations under U.N. Security Council Resolutions. And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb. Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country. So I want to be clear. Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given." - Howard Dean, Drake University, Febraury 2003.<br><br>"There's no requirement to have any doctrine here. I mean this is simply a longstanding right of the United States and other nations to take the actions they deem necessary in their self-defense. . . . Every president has deployed forces as necessary to take action. He's done so without multilateral support if necessary. He's done so in advance of conflict if necessary. . . . When we took action in Kosovo, we did not have United Nations approval. . . . There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat. . . . Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. . . . He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we."<br><br>". . . I want to underscore that I think the United States should not categorize this action as pre-emptive. . . . This is a problem that's longstanding. It's been a decade in the making. It needs to be dealt with and the clock is ticking on this. . . . There's no question that . . . there have been such contacts (between Iraq and al Qaeda). It's normal. It's natural. These are a lot of bad actors in the same region together. They are going to bump into each other. They are going to exchange information. They're going to feel each other out and see whether there are opportunities to cooperate. That's inevitable in this region, and I think it's clear that, regardless of whether or not such evidence is produced of these connections, that Saddam Hussein is a threat." - Wesley Clark, testimony before House Armed Services Committee, September 26, 2002<br><br>[i]"When Clinton was here recently he told me he was absolutely convinced, given his years in the White House and the access to privileged information which he had, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction until the end of the Saddam regime." - Prime Minister Jose Manuel Durao Barroso, October 2003<br><br>""If Saddam Hussein fails to comply and we fail to act or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop his program of weapons of mass destruction ...he will then conclude that he can go right on doing more to build an arsenal of devastating destruction .... Some way, someday, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal."[b] - President Bill Clinton<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:40 AM

Again, what are you talking about? That is why I again posted where the numbers came from.<br><br>This is silly then, don't you think? <br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:43 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>But IMHO telling people what they should or should not post is . . .<p><hr></blockquote><p>Thank you voice of reason.<br><br>
Posted by: squareman

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:43 AM

Okay, since you seem to not be able to go to bed unless you're answered:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>But you conveniently didn't bother replying to my question about the 12 years of UN voilations<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yup, 12 years of violating UN, that is the United Nations, not the United States. The UN had jurisdiction over this and they were the ones that get to make the decisions on it—no matter how inept ol' W thought they were acting.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>or the intelligence from mutilnational sourses about WMDs, and how that may or may not justify removing him from power.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Shown to be assembled from fabrications and faulty intelligence.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:49 AM

Yup, 12 years of violating UN, that is the United Nations, not the United States. The UN had jurisdiction over this and they were the ones that get to make the decisions on it—no matter how inept ol' W thought they were acting.<br><br>But you have to admit the UN, in this instance, was acting a lot like the high school principal that preceded Joe Clark in 'Lean On Me'...<br><br>"Well, maybe we'll just sit back and hope things get better"...<br><br>I'm under the opinion that while this may not have been the most justified course of action in our history, we should act in our own interests when the UN cannot unilaterally agree on a matter.<br><br>That is, when we have good enough reason to do so. <br><br>
Posted by: squareman

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:50 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>May I cut in?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Most certainly. <br><br>Interesting info. So you've got some Democrats and one foreign dignitary making arguments that Saddam probably had WMD—but there's still no compelling reason to have sent US soldiers to their death. I still say we were hasty and heavy-handed in this foreign affairs issue.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:52 AM

Well answered. But you have seem to have forgotten to mention that the US went agains the UNs will into IRAQ. Also, the only nation that has been part of the UN for all these years and never payed a single $ of it's dues is the USA.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:53 AM

God Cherry!<br><br>I told you that the numbers were interesting. That's what I mean, plain and simple. Why you're looking for hidden meaning in that is beyond me. I was, in fact, tellig you that I learned a few things from that. It was my attempt at trying to reach SOME middle ground with you, but you're wrapped up to see that I might ACTUALLY be independent, and could learn something from your post.<br><br>I've seen the numbers skewed the other way as well. But the numbers you shared were carefully selected to make the President and the war in Iraq look ineffective. I'm just trying to speak for the other side to present the WHOLE story.<br><br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:58 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Unfortunately, not being American, we cannot make a difference directly next year.<p><hr></blockquote><p>But you can… http://web.amnesty.org/<br>Type in USA, there is plenty you can do for us (US) that we can not do for ourselves. Also there is plenty everyone can do for the of the people of the world. You know, I am not really all that political, I just want to see ALL life on this planet protected and respected. I don't see that to be the trend these days. The present administration seems to be directly threatening the quality of life under the sun in all shapes and forms. Not just my opinion, don't you know!<br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 12:01 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>the US went agains the UNs will into IRAQ<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Well, mostly just France and Germany. Of course, France will ALWAYS want the exact opposite of what the US wants, no matter what.<br><br>Of course, we WERE defending the UN's policies towards Iraq. UN came up with some rules. Iraq thumbed their noses at the UN for 12 years. We did something about it. <br><br>France & Germany's plan? Let's sit around and have 12 more years of failed inspections. Please. Somebody had to do something. I'm glad we had to guts to follow through.<br><br>Can't speak to the dues issue. Don't know much about it.<br><br>
Posted by: squareman

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 12:01 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>But you have to admit the UN, in this instance, was acting a lot like the high school principal that preceded Joe Clark in 'Lean On Me'...<br><br>"Well, maybe we'll just sit back and hope things get better"...<br><br>I'm under the opinion that while this may not have been the most justified course of action in our history, we should act in our own interests when the UN cannot unilaterally agree on a matter.<br><br>That is, when we have good enough reason to do so.<p><hr></blockquote><p>We're on the same page there—I think we just differ on whether we had a good enough reason or not to take action. I don't think we did. I'm of the Libertarian stance that our foreign policy should be as hands-off, both politically and financially, as possible (but not laizais-faire, mind you).<br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 12:03 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I just want to see ALL life on this planet protected and respected<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>I agree. That's why I'm glad we took out that murderous, torturous dictator. I'm surpised you don't feel the same way. <br><br>
Posted by: azande

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 12:07 PM

Yeah, what I'm most interested in is http://www.controlarms.org<br><br>Az.<br>That which is dreamed can never be lost, can never be undreamed. - The Sandman
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 01:33 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Let's sit around and have 12 more years of failed inspections. Please. Somebody had to do something. I'm glad we had to guts to follow through. <p><hr></blockquote><p><br>And what exactly did the "non failed" american inspections prove?<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 01:42 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And what exactly did the "non failed" american inspections prove?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>That you abide by the UN's sanctions, or be removed from power. <br><br>They also proved that Sadaam was a brutal dictator who killed tens of thousands of Iraquis and buried them in mass graves.<br><br>That he routinely stole from the Food for Oil fund and from his own people while they were starving and dirt poor.<br><br>Just to name a few things. <br><br>WMDs? Not yet. And maybe never. I'll admit that. There was some faulty intelligence, no doubt. But I have trouble beleiving that the world isn't better off now than it was 12 months ago.<br><br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 01:49 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> world isn't better off now than it was 12 months ago <p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Iraqui people have no food, no jobs...<br>The US has a deficit higher than you could count<br>The US has Over 100k troops that are overseas (most of them young kids) that are fighting another Vietnam<br>All the powerfull corporations have got their tax cuts<br>More iraqui people killed by the US army in 1 year than all the years together by the dictator<br>A crushed American economy<br>And I could go on with the list.... <br>Now, how is it better now than 12 months ago?<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 02:00 PM

Yeah, and the war officially ended, what, less than 3 or 4 months ago?<br><br>You think Japan was in such great shape after WW2 either? But look what we did there, and look how the'yre doing today. Maybe if the Iraqis would stop KILLING Americans so frequently, we might just be able to leave sooner. I don't think they understand that equation... <br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 02:09 PM

uhmmm, if Japan was a company, they would be bankrupt.<br><br>As for the Americans being killed by Iraquis, that will never end as long as Americans are in there. The Irauis that are killing Americans are not all Terrorists. Most of them actually aren't. They are most regular people that had a disaster happend to them, such as their famillies, friends, relatives, loved ones... killed by American troops. <br>Let me tell you, if someone bombed my family, I would do everything in my power to put them down, even if it meant being a suicide bomber. And most likely you would do the same! <br><br>Immagine if the train went the other way around and you would be on the other side. Immagine your mother, father, sister, brother or anyone else you love being killed by an invasion army for the cost of some oil you have in your backyard. Would you sit on your butt and say it was right?<br><br>Edit: Also, as long as there is oil in those grounds, US troops will not leave.<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by djstefan on 01/22/04 05:17 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 08:18 PM

<sigh><br>OK.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Iraqui people have no food, no jobs...<p><hr></blockquote><p>As opposed to the bounty of jobs and food that they<br>had under Sadaam? They weren't exactly rich and fat before hand. And just an FYI - they just had a war. It will take time, but they will get there. And get this! They'll have the freedom to express their opinion without fear of death. They'll be able to elect their leaders. They'll be able to share in some of the oil revenues, instead of that money going to another one of Sadaam's solid gold toilet seats.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The US has a deficit higher than you could count<p><hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, it's been like that for generations, under Democrat and Republican presidents, but of course, you think it's all George Bush's fault. Whatever.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The US has Over 100k troops that are overseas (most of them young kids) that are fighting another Vietnam<p><hr></blockquote><p>1. NONE of them were forced to join the military. That was a choice they all made, knowing what the possible consequences are. They were mostly young kids in WWII too, and are capable of amazing things. My first cousin is over there right now, and I'm damn proud of him and the job he's doing.<br>2. You think it's another Vietnam???? I know we're doing things much greater over in Iraq than we were ever doing in Vietnam. We are liberating people from an oppresive dictator, and making the Middle East safer. Just becuase you dont' like the war, doesn't automatically make it a "Vietnam". People throw that one around waaay to much.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>All the powerfull corporations have got their tax cuts<p><hr></blockquote><p>Can't really argue with that one. But do remember this one thing: those "large companies" pay a lot of the salaries in this country. I do however agree that corporations have too many tax cuts. Don't forget, most individuals also got a tax cut.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>More iraqui people killed by the US army in 1 year than all the years together by the dictator<p><hr></blockquote><p>That is just flat out 100% wrong. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for saying that. First of all, it's estimated that Sadaam killed 50,000 - 100,000 people - most of them innocent. No way we killed that many. And even if we did (which we didn't come anywhere close), that's a cost of war, and most of them were combatants. This was the most carefully executed war plan, with more targeting accuracy than anything the world has ever seen. I'm not denying that some innocents got killed. Unfortunaly, that's a side effect of war. But our military tried everything in their power to avoid situations like that.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>A crushed American economy<p><hr></blockquote><p>Uhhhhhhh. Since when? Stock market as been doing great. Unemployment is way down, and economic indicators are all saying that our enconomy is making a very healthy recovery. Economy was crushed back in 2001. Welcome to 2004, my friend.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And I could go on with the list.... <p><hr></blockquote><p>If the rest of your list makes as much sense as what you've already presented, don't bother.<br><br>Just face it, you're probably a Democrat who doesn't like ANYTHING about George Bush, no matter what he does, because you're sore that he beat Al Gore when Gore won the popular vote. You're blind to anything useful that happens during the Bush administration. You're useless to have an educated discussion with, since you are clearly unable to look at anything objectively that has to do with this administration.<br><br>THAT'S how is it better now than 12 months ago, friend.<br><br>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 08:21 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>They are most regular people that had a disaster happend to them, such as their famillies, friends, relatives, loved ones... killed by American troops.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Where were the suicide bombers when Sadaam was killing their relatives?<br><br>At least the people that we're (intentionally) killing are enemy combatants.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 08:59 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> You're blind to anything useful that happens during the Bush administration <p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Well, thanks for opening my eyes as they were shut. <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 09:30 PM

Well I doubt that you are unbiased. For I can see things from a distance without bias., since I have no allegiance to American presidents on either side whatsoever. <br>The IMF wants to know how America is going to stop the world economic slide that GWB's false economy has induced and the tax cuts are one of the main reasons there is an economic problem. The tax cuts were to win favour for elections and wars, more big spending.. . There will be no tax cuts this election and that is for sure .. all you will get is a 5 trillion deficit.<br>Your economy is not recovering.<br>Saddam continues to violate humans rights thrugh that which he started.. even without his face behind it.<br>The world wide terrorism network may apparently be reeling but that is not the reason why bombs keep going off and more American soldiers have been killed since the "cessation of the offensive", or is it?<br><br>Who gets the credit?<br>Well we could start with Nixon or Reagan or Bush senior, we could even bring Clinton into the argument but oh well the biggest share is really GWB's, so lets give him the lions share of credit ok.<br>or is that debit?<br><br>The worlds money managers are not interested in America's political spin but they are interested in GWB's deficits.<br>The United Nations are not pleased with his humanitarian record either.<br>America's credibility has gone down the gurgler under Bush.<br>These are facts and not spin.<br><br>At least in this election it won't be gush and bore all over again .. or will it?<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 09:46 PM

The question is if there will actually be and ellection this time. <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: greenme1

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 09:46 PM

I think the situation in Iraq is bad and only going to get worse. The CIA recently said this, and warned about a possible civil war. <br><br>Now, just stating my opinion here: I think Bush is not only an idiot, but a fascist. And that is a dangerous combination. <br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 09:51 PM

*sigh* Hadn't heard much about the civil war possibilities, greenme, but I can see how that is a worry.<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 09:55 PM

consequences of a disrupted balance. <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: greenme1

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:01 PM

I really try hard to avoid these conversations, but i really can't stand what bush is doing. Worse yet i can't vote (by 1 year) in this next election to boot his sorry ass out of there. <br><br>Oh well, I'm having a bad day i guess.<br><br>P.S. I never claimed to be rational.... <br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:13 PM

I just wish everyone your age felt that strong about voting. <br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:32 PM

Don't worry, Alex--it's not as if PA were a pivotal state or anything <br><br>
Posted by: greenme1

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:55 PM

True, but it's that warm and fuzzy feeling you get afterwards that really counts! <br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 10:58 PM

I'd feel warmer and fuzzier if you could vote.<br><br>
Posted by: Michael

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:00 PM

There's an old saying. If your under 30 and not liberal you have no heart. If you're over 30 and not conservative you have no brain. <br><br>You'll get there.<br><br>
Posted by: greenme1

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:15 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>There's an old saying. If your under 30 and not liberal you have no heart. If you're over 30 and not conservative you have no brain. <br><p><hr></blockquote><p>Hehe, silly old people. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You'll get there.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>I certinly hope not. <br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:15 PM

Here's part of an essay by Ralph Waldo Emerson on "Conservatism and Liberalism."<br><br>[color:blue]There is always a certain meanness in the argument of conservatism, joined with a certain superiority in its fact. It affirms because it holds. Its fingers clutch the fact, and it will not open its eyes to see a better fact. The castle, which conservatism is set to defend, is the actual state of things, good and bad. The project of innovation is the best possible state of things. Of course, conservatism always has the worst of the argument, is always apologizing, pleading a necessity, pleading that to change would be to deteriorate; it must saddle itself with the mountainous load of the violence and vice of society, must deny the possibility of good, deny ideas, and suspect and stone the prophet; whilst innovation is always in the right, triumphant, attacking, and sure of final success. Conservatism stands on man's confessed limitations; reform, on his indisputable infinitude; conservatism, on circumstance; liberalism, on power; one goes to make an adroit member of the social frame; the other to postpone all things to the man himself; conservatism is debonair and social; reform is individual and imperious. We are reformers in spring and summer; in autumn and winter we stand by the old; reformers in the morning, conservers at night. Reform is affirmative, conservatism negative; conservatism goes for comfort, reform for truth. Conservatism is more candid to behold another's worth; reform more disposed to maintain and increase its own. Conservatism makes no poetry, breathes no prayer, has no invention; it is all memory. Reform has no gratitude, no prudence, no husbandry. It makes a great difference to your figure and to your thought, whether your foot is advancing or receding. Conservatism never puts the foot forward; in the hour when it does that, it is not establishment, but reform. Conservatism tends to universal seeming and treachery, believes in a negative fate; believes that men's temper governs them, that for me, it avails not to trust in principles; they will fail me; I must bend a little; it distrusts nature; it thinks there is a general law without a particular application,--law for all that does not include any one. Reform in its antagonism inclines to asinine resistance, to kick with hoofs; it runs to egotism and bloated self-conceit; it runs to a bodiless pretension, to unnatural refining and elevation, which ends in hypocrisy and sensual reaction.<br><br>And so whilst we do not go beyond general statements, it may be safely affirmed of these two metaphysical antagonists, that each is a good half, but an impossible whole. Each exposes the abuses of the other, but in a true society, in a true man, both must combine.</font color=blue><br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/22/04 11:55 PM

sounds rational to me.<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: srumrill

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 06:23 AM

I am done with this rediculous conversation. Sure, it's easy to blame America for the world's problems as we are the only superpower. Our economy here in the States is doing quite well. And I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know much about the world economy (except that I've head that France's economy is reeling due to American's boycotts of French products - and that gives me a warm feeling inside).<br><br>Treebeard, don't think that your opinions aren't based on spin either. Everybody loves to hate the US. Oh well. Maybe the US should shut their borders and cut off trade with the rest of the world, since nobody likes us anyway. <br><br>Let us not forget which country gives (NOT loans) the most aid (financial and otherwise) to other countries. Time for the rest of the world to stop pissing all over the US.<br><br>
Posted by: greenme1

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 07:34 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Sure, it's easy to blame America for the world's problems as we are the only superpower.<p><hr></blockquote><p>People can think whatever they want to about the US. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Our economy here in the States is doing quite well.<p><hr></blockquote><p>That's really not what i have been seeing and hearing.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know much about the world economy (except that I've head that France's economy is reeling due to American's boycotts of French products - and that gives me a warm feeling inside).<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>Well, I'm glad you get your kicks from others suffering. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Everybody loves to hate the US. Oh well. Maybe the US should shut their borders and cut off trade with the rest of the world, since nobody likes us anyway. <p><hr></blockquote><p>That's possibly one of the most foolish things I've heard in a while. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Let us not forget which country gives (NOT loans) the most aid (financial and otherwise) to other countries. Time for the rest of the world to stop pissing all over the US.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>At no point in time have i ever helped anyone for the sole reason of gratification. And quite frankly i couldn't care less how much other people piss on the US, I would still help them if i could.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I am done with this rediculous conversation<p><hr></blockquote><p>That's ok, i like talking to myself anyways. <br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:07 AM

LOL You have to admit, his arguments are strong! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:12 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Everybody loves to hate the US. Oh well. Maybe the US should shut their borders and cut off trade with the rest of the world, since nobody likes us anyway. <p><hr></blockquote><p><br>You do not seem to have done your HW on the US economy it seems. The US is a non producing country. Look around you and check where everything is made. Everything is import, and therefore, if you shut all the borders (or other countries shut them which can happened any time) you will be left with no diapers, food, alcohol, and even a lot of your water and electrical is import to, so be carefull what you whish for! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:15 AM

Smell strongly of over zealous patriotism brainwashing, to the detriment of being world wise, more like it.<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:15 AM

Da' REAL "State of the Union"<br><br>16 Hours Ago[b]<br>[b]Plan to open Alaska to more oil, gas development finished<br>WASHINGTON - Interior Secretary Gale Norton signed off on a plan Thursday for opening most of an 8.8 million-acre swath of Alaska's North Slope to oil and gas development. Some of the drilling could occur in areas important for migratory birds, whales and wildlife. <br><br><center>*********************************</center><br>2 Hours Ago<br>Schlumberger beats estimates<br>NEW YORK (Reuters) - Schlumberger Ltd., the world's No. 1 oil field services company, reported Friday a higher-than-expected quarterly operating profit, compared to a year-ago loss, on increased oil and natural gas drilling activity. <br> <br><center>*********************************</center><br>1/2 Hour Ago<br>Companies apply for permits to develop natural gas pipeline<br>Mike Chambers<br>Associated Press<br>Jan. 23, 2004 07:50 AM<br>JUNEAU, Alaska - Three companies emerged Thursday with a proposal to build a 745-mile natural gas pipeline from Alaska's North Slope to the border in Canada's Yukon Territory.<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: JohnR

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:17 AM

Uh..right. I think YOU should do more of YOUR homework on that.<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:23 AM

Schlumberger Ltd<br>the worlds #1 slum maker?<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:28 AM

a rational thinking man I see<br>about time <br>there should be a little more of it.<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: JohnR

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:29 AM

rational? heh..alrighty then! <br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:30 AM

Whoa whoa whao! Alchohol??? <br><br>Mister, you can bash our prez, our army, and even our diapers. But there's no way... NO WAY I'm gonna let you put down our fine American liquor!!<br><br>Them's is fightin' word, sir, and I challenge, I say, I challenge you to a duel!<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:31 AM

In regard to foreign aid, you might want to read this. Yes, the US, having the largest economy, has the largest amount of money in aid; but as a percentage of GDP, the US has the worst record. Go figure.<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:32 AM

better than k rations.. anyway, ever tried them?<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:33 AM

<embed src="http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9110/simsg307.wav" width=320 height=25 controller=true autoplay=false type=video/quicktime><br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:35 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> Plan to open Alaska to more oil, gas development finished<br>WASHINGTON - Interior Secretary Gale Norton signed off on a plan Thursday for opening most of an 8.8 million-acre swath of Alaska's North Slope to oil and gas development. Some of the drilling could occur in areas important for migratory birds, whales and wildlife. <p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Since the start of his presidency, his highness, Presidend Bush has been trying to get up in Alaska and drain some of the ressources. All natural research groups warned that if such decision was taken, it would devastate the environment in incredibly awefull ways. It took a whole 3.5 years to bribe off the right people to do what he is doing. <br>Watch out NY, Boston DC, Miami.... You will be buying boats soon instead of large size SUVs! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: JohnR

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:36 AM

I was fortunate enough not to have them...I grew up having MRE's <br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:37 AM

[/i]Presidend Bush has been trying to get up in Alaska and drain some of the ressources.[/i]<br><br>I thought that was the work of Vice Presidend Cheney...<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:37 AM

Are you challenging me to a drinking duel?!?! Bring the casses of 40s in and and lets get to it! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: JohnR

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:39 AM

40's? Dude..I'll bring some of KY's finest bourbon and then we'll see!! <br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:39 AM

And who owns the oil companies that will be making all the profits?<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:40 AM

181 Rum it is! <br><br>Then again, "the finest bourbon" sounds really tempting. hmmm, we could have both I guess... :)<br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by djstefan on 01/23/04 11:42 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:46 AM

<br><center><br><br><h2>"Hood Robbin' "</h2> <br><br></center><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:50 AM

i dunno, let me guess, coud it be a jingoist?<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:53 AM

very good. Are you a member of moveon.org?<br><br>
Posted by: JohnR

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:54 AM

Makers Mark...check it out. Very good stuff.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:55 AM

<br>I'm a member of Let's MOVE ON From this Divide & Conquer Argument!<br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:57 AM

Ok, you have another member in your club...<br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 08:59 AM

I have a taste for<br><br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:00 AM

where did we move on from : make love not war?<br>;)<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:02 AM

I'm a member of the 'Let's lock this thread, burn it, stomp on it with steel-toed boots and never speak of it again' club.<br><br><br>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:02 AM

"Let's get happy, let's get drunk!"<br>–Robert Pollard, Guided By Voices<br>(from a concert in the Watch Me JumpStart video)<br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:03 AM

for peace bro .., we do not need hobnailed boots. <br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:03 AM

<q>where did we move on from : make love not war?<br>;)</q><br><br><br>We didn't [wink}<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:04 AM

jingoist: "Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism."<br><br>From the definition I would say it sounds right. :)<br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:07 AM

<br>Good Idea!<br>I Take my Absolute layered between THIS<br>...and a spritz of Club Soda.<br><br>It's called a "MIND ERASER": <br>Which sounds like a GREAT IDEA Right about Now<br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:07 AM

Yeah, but some people need a good kick in the shins sometimes..<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:10 AM

true as that emotion may feel it is still far from a peaceful way to settle an argument.<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:18 AM

Who said it would settle it?<br><br>Escalate, maybe...<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:23 AM

jingoistic<br> adj : fanatically patriotic [syn: {chauvinistic}, {flag-waving(a)},<br> {nationalistic}, {ultranationalistic}, {superpatriotic}]<br><br>well it does not leave much room for he new world order, does it.<br>for without a world how can one order it?<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:24 AM

smile and why would we need to do that?<br>we have more pressing urgencies.<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:24 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I'm a member of the 'Let's lock this thread, burn it, <br>stomp on it with steel-toed boots <br>and never speak of it again' club.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>You have my vote.<br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:25 AM

Indeed a great idea just about now!<br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:26 AM

and how can we find peace by burying our head in the sand in front of a bulldozer?<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:27 AM

just close the door then .. it is so simple.<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:28 AM

We can have "MIND ERASERS" if I close the close the door?<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:29 AM

You first.<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:36 AM

sadly, no<br>but lets close it anyway<br><br>Trör Ironbrow<br><br><pre>[color:blue]The butterfly counts not months but moments, and has time enough</font color=blue></pre><p>
Posted by: cherry

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:38 AM

ok. Then next person to write in this thread will be cursed 10 FOLD the number of replies…<br>Say the magic words and let it be so ASA NISI MASA<br><br>
Posted by: djstefan

Re: "Da Real State of the Union" - 01/23/04 09:43 AM

OOooooPS! <br><br>_________________________________________<br>http://www.geocities.com/djstefan/bush.gif