GarbageBand

Posted by: iraszl

GarbageBand - 01/18/04 11:36 PM

This app does the same to the music industry as CorelDraw did to graphic design. Lot of trash everywhere. I enjoyed the little trial and errors in this and other forums, but I'm afraid I will soon hear these loops in many more places. <br><br>Don't take me wrong, it's a great app, but people with no talent or knowledge of music and little effort will be releasing tracks with matching quality to those university party posters. You know what I mean? Stretched fonts fit to a curves, clip arts and over use of filters, etc.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 12:29 AM

I know what you mean. (I didn't want to be the first to say it.)<br><br>Your analogy to Photoshop filters is right on. Sure, Alien Skin let you make some neat bevels and shiny objects. Even Photoshop is equipped with one-click shadows and glows. But unless the effects are tweaked and used in the proper context (and with some restraint), it becomes apparent how little effort went into it and exactly what tool made them. (When in doubt, do a lens flare, right? )<br><br>It's sort of like Bryce... it makes pretty pictures, but the only pictures you ever see from it are endless oceans with mountains popping out of nowhere, and they all look the same. Only the folks who take the time to understand the software and go beyond the default settings can make some really interesting things.<br><br>It's not art, it's not music... just empty calories.<br><br>But I wouldn't go so far as to call it trash... it's just people having fun. And like the Hokey Pokey, that's what it's all about!<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: JohnR

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 03:08 AM

Here I thought you were going to trash the app, but it's more of trashing the users eh?<br><br>I'm sorry that not everyone can be the perfectionist of some others.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 03:24 AM

not trashing the users yet , i'm just wondering if this new tool will have the same effect on low end music industry as the above mentioned cheapo design app. on graphic design.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 04:34 AM

That was my initial thoughts as well .. haha.. I liked the garbageband title.<br><br>We can all make music now but who is going to teach us about music?<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 04:36 AM

I think the first was watcher .. much to nutty's disgust.<br>watcher I think it was said .. something like . <br><br>"yeah but will it give them talent?"<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: sean

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 05:01 AM

i've had my reservations for a bit now...back on january 7, i said, "i do wonder what real musicians think of an app like this that can bring music to the masses. i mean, that's great that everyone has "access," but an app that can help mediocre musicians sound better with special tracks that blend together, etc. could bring the appreciation of real talent down."<br><br>though, i said it at MC and not here. <a href="http://forums.maccentral.com/wwwthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=Lounge&Number=599896&page=&view=&sb=&o=">CLICK</a><br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 05:24 AM

I believeyou .. <br>I gave up going to MC about five years ago and have not been back.<br><br>Yes there will; be a reduction of the development of real talent.<br>There will also be an increase in the development of talent .. After annother fifty years squared... or so.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: JohnR

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 05:25 AM

Yet? Hmmm..looked like it to me.<br><br>I think it's a great app and I don't have it yet. I plan on taking guitar lessons from a friend of mine and perhaps using Garageband as a fun hobby.<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 05:28 AM

yeah I think that is how most of us will use it but for the fact that I already play guitar.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: JohnR

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 05:30 AM

I have always wanted to play guitar, just never thought I had any talent...still don't as a matter of fact, but my friend is really good and thinks he can teach me. well, we'll see! heh<br><br>
Posted by: nutty

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 06:33 AM

well, since 50% of american households have an active musician i think a lot of GB users will be very happy.<br><br>about all you guys thinking you have to have talent to use it, do remeber when you first started out with NO talent? what if people said to you what you are saying today. <br><br>Dont piss on people just beginning with music, thats plain wrong and shows a huge ego.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 06:53 AM

do remeber when you first started out with NO talent? what if people said to you what you are saying today. <br><br><br>Nah, I always knew I had SOME talent. Just took me a few years to figure out what it was..<br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:26 AM

I completely disagree with you. iPhoto and simple Photoshop filters make me want to take more pictures, and it makes me appreciate professional quality even more. Using iMovie with my little miniDV has instilled in me an appreciation for what professional studios can do; I now feel I can understand the work AND the talent required for different scenes. <br><br>Furthermore, the simplicity of something like Garageband could introduce millions of children to music creation. Talented children that may only have the money to use a computer or a musical instrument at school will be exposed to a lot more than just a single band instrument and a high school teacher. Who knows where the talent will come from?<br><br>I think this is only being pointed out here, because we have so many artists on this board. Well, cooking is an art, should step-by-step gourmet cookbooks be frowned upon by high-brow chefs? <br><br>I think this is a very snobbish thread. Take a look at yourself before you sh*t on someone trying to make art the best they know how. <br><br>
Posted by: sross

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:33 AM

Well said. And amen to the "snobbish" part.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:37 AM

of course there are people who do have amazing talent, who don't need to know anything about music, but they just feel what's right and what's wrong. this great app will help them tremendously.<br><br>i'm talking about pieces of crap made with no effort and no knowledge of music whatsoever. it's like flashsturbation. flash is also a great and innovative app, but look at what the majority of people create with it. <br><br>nutty, i understand that you're hurt by hearing something bad said about this great app. Apple has no control over this garbage happening and they shouldn't care about it. of course there is no doubt, i'd rather have this tool and deal with the garbage here and there than not to have GarageBand.<br><br>Go Apple go!<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: nutty

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:01 AM

It's not trashing apple, i just dont get trashing people for something YOU dont feel is good.<br><br>How many people have written horrible books since the typewriter?<br><br>How many bad guitar solos must we endure since the invention of the amplifier?<br><br><br><br>There will always be something that YOU dont like that someone else loves!<br><br>I just dont like people trashing others creativity. If YOU dont like then fine, move on.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:05 AM

it's like flashsturbation. flash is also a great and innovative app, but look at what the majority of people create with it. <br><br>Hey, Flash is a bitch of a program to sit down and learn. I applaud anyone who even took the time to sit there and figure out how to even MAKE most of the flashturbation that's out there.<br><br>Anything that takes time, effort, and motivation should always at least be appreciated for the hard work put into it. <br><br>Not that I know what I'm talking about with GarageBand yet. Knowing me, I'll probably play with it for a few days and just go back to what it is I do best...<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:11 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I think this is a very snobbish thread. Take a look at yourself before you sh*t on someone trying to make art the best they know how.<p><hr></blockquote><p>snobbish? do you want to expand on it, why? i'm worried for the quality of mass music. why is that snobbish? if i'm snobbish, because i dare to say that garbage is garbage, than you are hipocrite, because you know it's crap but you say it's art to the best they know how. but in fact i just think you completely missed the point of my post.<br><br>there is a big difference between the unprofessional hobbyist and the the professional level crap production. nobody said it's bad that people will learn music. i completely agree that GarageBand is a great tool. i didn't sh*t on these people. so have fun and learn to make music, i have no problem with that. i'll be doing the same soon (hopefully). remember, i said i had fun listening to our early adopters. i couldn't wait to hear them.<br><br>art can't be a hobby. a hobby is a hobby, art is something serious and can't be done half hearted. i hate hobby paintings for example that are sold as art usually close to tourist attractions, they make me sick. thanks god there are not many hobby architects. just imagine your street.<br><br>btw, don't insult my art, i don't do any.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:15 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Hey, Flash is a bitch of a program to sit down and learn. I applaud anyone who even took the time to sit there and figure out how to even MAKE most of the flashturbation that's out there.<p><hr></blockquote><p>it's not that difficult really.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:19 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>It's not trashing apple, i just dont get trashing people for something YOU dont feel is good.<br><br>How many people have written horrible books since the typewriter?<br><br>How many bad guitar solos must we endure since the invention of the amplifier?<br><br><br><br>There will always be something that YOU dont like that someone else loves!<br><br>I just dont like people trashing others creativity. If YOU dont like then fine, move on.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>i wasn't talking about the hobbyist, but i do think there is role for criticism even for the hobbyist. we can't just applaud every little thing that one does. unless of course we are talking about a mental institution.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: Trog

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:23 AM

Its snobbish simply because you are so certain that what you don't like isn't good for others. Did you ever consider that what you think is crap, someone else might think is great?<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>i'm worried for the quality of mass music.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Oh please. Should we thank you for keeping an eye on the quality of art around the globe?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>art can't be a hobby.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Says who? I have no idea what you're talking about here. Most people probably start as hobbyists. So you hate hobby paintings - don't buy them. Others might consider them a diamond in the rough. <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>btw, don't insult my art, i don't do any.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Huh? How on earth did I insult your art?? Look, we clearly don't see eye to eye here, but your post really touched a nerve with me because I have no talent as an artist, music or otherwise. So when things like Garageband come along at least I can pretend and get some enjoyment out of it. Now you come along and try and tell me I shouldn't even be allowed to do that!<br><br>
Posted by: TheGreatDivide

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:28 AM

If we're lucky it'll stay 'virtual', digital,<br>meaning they hopefully wont produce CD's<br>rather post them er sumthin'...<br><br>anyhow<br>real headz know good music <br>and puffdaddy loop junkie sing alongs are for the cogs<br><br>Environmental damage has been a factor in political unrest. UN, 011304
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:28 AM

it's not that difficult really.<br><br>Maybe not simple motion and transitions, but believe me, Flash is an über-complicated program when you start digging through all the actionscript and variables that allow for interaction and certain effects.<br><br>I don't know what specifically you're referring to when you use the term 'flashturbation', but I still think the average computer person gets scared off by this program- as opposed to straight graphic programs, which anyone with a mouse and the ability to recognize the icon for a paint brush can load up and start playing around in...<br><br>While your post does bring up a sore spot for me- the fact that seemingly everyone who picks up a book or takes a night class at the YMCA is instantly a 'graphic designer' (and declares themselves so on cheaply made business cards), I don't know if GarageBand is going to put any recording artists out of house and home.<br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:29 AM

Sherman beat me to it, Trog: Well said indeed! Here's an analogy. Ever since writing was invented a long long while ago, people have written very bad poetry. It hasn't diminished the work of good poets, though. Nor is it bad for would-be poets to write their stuff. It's a harmless hobby on the one hand, and might actually help the writer develop into a real poet on the other hand.<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:31 AM

"...which anyone with a mouse and the ability to recognize the icon for a paint brush can load up and start playing around in..."<br><br>So that's what that tool is for! Thanks DM!! <br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:31 AM

No problem. <br><br>Garsh, how did you done make them thar purty icons all this time?<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:32 AM

With GarageIcon. <br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:49 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Its snobbish simply because you are so certain that what you don't like isn't good for others. Did you ever consider that what you think is crap, someone else might think is great?<p><hr></blockquote><p>well, you're right i can only speak for myself. what did you expect? i'm not a leader of any group to represent. i know that some people don't have a very refined taste and i understand why they buy the crap. i only have a very limited taste in music too. there are levels. i don't know why you think i didn't consider that.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Oh please. Should we thank you for keeping an eye on the quality of art around the globe?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Oh please. Shall we thank you for protecting the world from the people like me? I simply stated my opinion and worries, there was nothing noble about that. Please don't try to make arguments out of nothing.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>art can't be a hobby.<br>Says who? I have no idea what you're talking about here. Most people probably start as hobbyists. So you hate hobby paintings - don't buy them. Others might consider them a diamond in the rough.<p><hr></blockquote><p>i say so. i wasn't quoting anybody, when i do i point it out. there are certain professions that can't be done as a hobby. i think art (musician, painter. etc.) is one of them. doctors, lawyers, scientists are others. However you can have a fishtank and not be a biologist; you can pump iron, but not be a bodybuilder; you can have a blog and not be a writer. Art requires too much knowledge, understanding, focus and devotion to be able to do it on Sunday afternoons.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>btw, don't insult my art, i don't do any.<br>Huh? How on earth did I insult your art?? Look, we clearly don't see eye to eye here, but your post really touched a nerve with me because I have no talent as an artist, music or otherwise. So when things like Garageband come along at least I can pretend and get some enjoyment out of it. Now you come along and try and tell me I shouldn't even be allowed to do that!<p><hr></blockquote><p>you insulted my art when you said, quoting: Take a look at yourself before you sh*t on someone trying to make art the best they know how. But I guess you didn't mean it than. About my post touching your nerve because you have no talent? I'm sorry I didn't mean to upset you. I was just making an observation. Go ahead enjoy GarageBand, I'm sure it's great fun.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:54 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Here's an analogy. Ever since writing was invented a long long while ago, people have written very bad poetry. It hasn't diminished the work of good poets, though. Nor is it bad for would-be poets to write their stuff. It's a harmless hobby on the one hand, and might actually help the writer develop into a real poet on the other hand.<p><hr></blockquote><p>you said there is bad poetry? no it's not bad! it's the best they can do and we should appreciate that! don't say bad! bad boy!<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:56 AM

There's good poetry? <br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:57 AM

Whatever. I give up, not because I'm angry at you or because I think you're right, I just simply can't think of anything else to say that would prevent this argument from becoming any more circuitous than its already become.<br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:01 AM

My take on political posts as well, Trog. Once you've said what you want to say, repetition is just repetition.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:01 AM

peace. i appreciate your opinion because it's interesting to see your views and it forms mine.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:11 AM

Of course there is, Sam. Here's one:<br><br>Fleas (by Anon.)<br><br>Adam<br>Had'em.<br><br>Enjoy.<br><br>
Posted by: hayesk

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:19 AM

"Art requires too much knowledge, understanding, focus and devotion to be able to do it on Sunday afternoons."<br><br>Art is an expression of emotion by the artist to the viewer/listener. Art can be produced by anyone who puts in the effort to communicate their emotions - they don't have to dedicate 24hours a day to do it.<br><br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:22 AM

If you want a good example of what your fellow forum members consider 'art', take a gander at the mosaic DVD. <br><br>While everyone's tile may not be worthy of hanging in a museum, it IS everyone's own expression of creativity...<br><br>
Posted by: Trog

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:33 AM

I'll take one if you don't mind; been meaning to ask you about it for a while. Do I just need to paypal some money to you?<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:34 AM

yeah, PM me and I'll give you all the info you need!<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 10:08 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>There's good poetry? <p><hr></blockquote><p>clearly you have been avoiding TGD's posts lately. <br><br>
Posted by: nebosuke

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 10:36 AM

I've got to say that in my opinion, your thinking is completely backwards on this. You make it seem that music, and all other art-forms are these great institutions that the common man should not be meddling with. That's just terribly wrong.<br><br>All of these things started with the general population communicating with each other and grew over centuries, and in some cases millennia, to the polished products we have today. To say that somebody who has no formal training shouldn't be given access to any tools of creativity is really a scary thing to me.<br><br>Where do you think these songs are going to be popping up and assaulting your ears? Not on the radio or any other commercial outlet. They'll be on peoples personal web sites, home movies, and the like. Just as all of the personal photographs and other amateur artworks are. Today's version of taped to the refrigerator.<br><br>University party posters did not take a hit in quality when CorelDraw hit the masses. Do you think they used to hire professional graphic artists to make them previously? I'm pretty sure it was mainly a marker and a photocopier, and if anything, the fliers got better when DTP was a reality.<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 10:46 AM

nutty = First thing you must learn is that talent is something you are born with.<br><br>Don't piss on people who know what they are talking about.<br><br>GarbageBand will do just that. It will allow for more garbage bands.<br><br>It will not increase the level of existing talent.<br><br>Sure it will give those who are already musicians more scope to actually get their work out there.<br><br>But it will not even make musicians into talented musicians.<br><br>After fifty years of practicing being a musician every day, I have become more proficient but I don't get any more talent.<br><br>The only thing GarageBand will do to talent is that from now on, those with latent talent possibly have a greater chance of actually using that talent. <br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: nutty

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 11:13 AM

First thing you must learn is that talent is something you are born with<br><br>Bullsh*t<br><br>the end<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 11:19 AM

Not bullshiit. It's defined as "a marked innate ability." You're confusing talent with skill.<br><br>
Posted by: rman

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 11:45 AM

I agree. Talent you are born with it, whereas skill is learned.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 11:49 AM

i hope you will be proven right. i don't want GarageBand to be associated with you know what.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: hayesk

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 12:01 PM

People are born without awareness of math, language, music, etc. Talent may come from inspiration, upbringing, or whatever.<br><br>I contend that nobody knows where talent comes from.<br><br>Regardless, tools like Garageband will tap the undiscovered talent of many people that may have sat dormant as long as they live. When you put professional tools in the hands of everyone, great things happen. You'll never have to hear about the bad stuff unless you go looking for it.<br><br>
Posted by: JohnR

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 01:28 PM

I gotz skillz <br><br>Trog, well said! And you too Nebosake.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 02:11 PM

I think genius is something you can't create, but the artists (or scientists or lawyers or whatevers) who are geniuses are very few and far between. Talent I think is in the same ballpark as genius--a difference of degree and not of kind. Skill, I think, is in a different ballpark entirely--a matter of learning and practicing. But the difference in degree between genius and talent is large enough so that people who have skill in an art and who hone that skill can approximate the talented. For the run of the mill stuff that we encounter more often than not, we probably couldn't tell the difference between skill and talent.<br><br>At the same time, talented folks who don't hone their skills will never create anything worthwhile (that's what I keep telling my trumpet-blowing son, who has lots of talent but is lazy as can be when it comes to practicing ). I think the same is true for people of genius, by the way--unless they hone their skills, they will produce nothing worthwhile. One of the great poets of the twentieth century, W. B. Yeats, calls his art "this craft of verse," by which I think he means that he thinks of his art as something requiring the practiced skill of any craft. That he has that rare genius makes his skill produce astonishingly great work. In comparison to such work, what the "merely" talented person produces just does not compare.<br><br>Lots of poets have worked through the categories of genius, talent, and skill. If you're curious, Robert Browning's "Andrea del Sarto" is a particularly poignant one. The poem is a dramatic monologue, as are so many of Browning's works, by one of the very good, talented craftsmen who were the backbone of the Italian Renaissance. In the poem, del Sarto thinks about the difference between the work he does and the work of Michelangelo and Rafael. Here's a passage from the poem, as del Sarto looks at a copy of a painting by Rafael (the "Urbinate," as he's called in the poem) and describes it to his lover, Lucrezia:<br><br>[color:blue]Yonder’s a work now, of that famous youth<br>The Urbinate who died five years ago.<br>(’Tis copied, George Vasari sent it me.)<br>Well, I can fancy how he did it all,<br>Pouring his soul, with kings and popes to see,<br>Reaching, that heaven might so replenish him,<br>Above and through his art—for it gives way;<br>That arm is wrongly put—and there again—<br>A fault to pardon in the drawing’s lines,<br>Its body, so to speak: its soul is right,<br>He means right—that, a child may understand.<br>Still, what an arm! and I could alter it:<br>But all the play, the insight and the stretch—<br>Out of me, out of me! And wherefore out?<br>Had you enjoined them on me, given me soul,<br>We might have risen to Rafael, I and you!</font color=blue><br><br>Poor Andrea--his skill will never make him a genius. But at the same time that he sees and acknowledges Rafael's genius, he notes Rafael's need to practice. I guess del Sarto might have said, "Too bad Raphael didn't have the equivalent of GarageBand to help his genius flourish." <br><br> [img]/images/wwwthreads/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/wwwthreads/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
Posted by: LoveTheBomb

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 04:11 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>People are born without awareness of math, language, music, etc. Talent may come from inspiration, upbringing, or whatever.<br><br>I contend that nobody knows where talent comes from<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Thank you! Someone who sees the world how I see it. We really don't know where talent comes from. A lot of people seem like they have an innate ability to do something, but then you see that they were nurtured in an environment where that ability is emphasised. Would they still have this ability if they were brought up in a different envronment? Passion also plays a big part in this too. Some people are so passionate about music that they play 6 hours a day. Is this talent?<br><br>The problem is, we don't know *where* talent comes from and where the line is drawn between talent and skill. We just know that the people who are the best at something are passionate about it and work very hard at it.<br><br>-Matt<br><br>
Posted by: nutty

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 04:15 PM

yep, i dont buy the dictionary version of talent.<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 04:22 PM

If you people don't agree with the textbook definition of talent, I suggest you use a different word. Talent means a natural ability. If you don't want to discuss natural abilities, STOP USING THE FSCKING WORD!<br><br>
Posted by: LoveTheBomb

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 04:45 PM

You can't go by the dictionary definition of the word talent because that even varies. Even after doing a little search I come up with these:<br><br>1. A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment. See Synonyms at ability.<br>2. Intellectual ability, natural or acquired; mental endowment or capacity; skill in accomplishing;<br><br>also, lets define natural. Does your upbringing count as natural? I have a friend at Juilliard because of how well he plays the flute. He would practice 6 hours a day, his parents were big into music, and he listened to flute music all the time. He loves flute music. Did he learn to love flute music or was it natural? We don't know. <br><br>But I digress. I actually never use the word talent because we don't know what it is. It pisses off my girlfriend because she thinks she's talented in writing. I always she's skilled and passionate... and she is.<br><br>Keep in mind, talent isn't an ascribed status. A child isn't born and their parents go "Wow, they're a great flute player". People who are considered talented have to achieve that status. Through hard work, passion, and skill. I hear all the time "My son is talented, he just doesn't apply himself". But no one else consideres that person talented... they just have an affinity.<br><br>damn, sorry for ranting.<br><br>-Matt<br><br>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 06:28 PM

Relax! Let's not go overboard on GarageBand worries. I think everyone misses some very important points. There is a myth about trained musicians and art, etc. School simply doesn't prepare you for what's really out there. I doubt that there are more than a half-dozen schools in the USA that are capable of training people in pro-level composing, arranging, performing, booking, managing, directing, recording, audio, MIDI, and electronic theory. Even the ones that CAN teach those things don't really instill a sense of how they are actually used on the job. <br><br>To be a musician these days, you really need to know something about all these things. Many schools can teach the traditional aspects of music, but when it comes to the electronic side, most don't have a clue. This stuff is a moving target, and by the time you get a class prepared on how to do it, it's obsolete. <br><br>Experience is hard to get. The cutting-edge tools are only available to pros. Novices can't afford them. Think for a moment: most people here didn't know how loops worked a week ago. Now you've actually USED them. Many had no idea what MIDI was about. Now you've actually recorded yourself in MIDI, and maybe you've created an audio recording of your MIDI performance. <br><br>GarageBand makes these things easy, but all apps are easy once you've grasped the concept. GarageBand gives you some pretty heavy concepts, all wrapped up simply in one little $9 application. Apple has given novices a step up. From here, you can see how SoundTrack works. You also see some of the rudiments of every MIDI app, and many software samplers and synths. Where before was a brick wall before, GarageBand has given you a window through which you can see how the rest of the industry works. It's not so intimidating now, is it? <br><br>That said, everyone should make music--every day. It's a gift, and it's a shame to squander it. Why think it should be left to professionals and this crazy concept we call "artists?" To think that the only way to appreciate it is to pay someone else to do it for you is a crime against nature. Don't get me wrong; I love to be paid for what I do. But this isn't rocket science. It doesn't have to be left to professionals. Enjoy this stuff! Does it really matter if anyone else "gets it?"<br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 06:29 PM

Pardon the late hit, but I can't not add my .02 here...<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>art can't be a hobby. a hobby is a hobby, art is something serious and can't be done half hearted. i hate hobby paintings for example that are sold as art usually close to tourist attractions, they make me sick. thanks god there are not many hobby architects. just imagine your street.<p><hr></blockquote><p>That's about the most ill-considered and unfortunate statement anyone in the creative field could ever put forth! You couldn't possibly have been thinking when you typed those words. You're much too bright a guy to have said something like that if you had been. If "hobbyists" shouldn't enter the arts, where would the next generation of talent come from? Not that getting paid for a natural gift is bad, but consider that most hobbyists do what they do for the love of it, and IMHO, that kind of equity yields an honesty and purity that many "pros" have long since forsaken for the almighty dollar.<br><br>Now go to your room young man, and think about what you said. <br><br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 06:30 PM

So what schools do you think have the goods? I'm always curious about stuff like this.<br><br>[color:red]Well</font color=red> . . . [color:blue]how did I get here?</font color=blue>
Posted by: Shooshie

PS: Nutty... - 01/19/04 06:31 PM

Someone at MacCentral found the way to turn off the metronome. It's not in the prefs. It's a menu item! DUH! I feel stupid now. But I'm glad it's there. That's an essential item. <br><br>Now... to get Apple to increase the size of the MIDI Edit window!<br><br>;^)<br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 06:52 PM

Well, I'm not even sure anymore. I haven't thought much about music school in 20 years. But... Each of the following offers something important in the way of Music:<br><br>University of North Texas <br>Northwestern<br>U of Michigan<br>U of Indiana<br>University of Southern California<br>U Cal @ Berkeley<br>UCLA<br>University of Miami<br>Shephard School of Music (Rice)<br>Southern Methodist University<br>Harvard <br>Yale<br>Berkelee School of Music<br>New England Conservatory<br>Eastman<br>Juliard<br>Curtiss Institute<br>Full Sail Institute (recording, electronics, film, etc.)<br><br><br>I'm probably leaving out a lot of really deserving music schools. But my point is that of the above, few if any can really teach you how to be a professional musician. In fact, most of them teach you how NOT to be a professional musician by instilling snobbery, elitism, "teacher pedigrees," and a disdain for music that makes money. On the other hand, an enterprising person can learn a lot at a good school, then go out and make their own way. <br><br>In other industries, there are usually places that are willing to hire you if you're good; they are actually looking for trained employees. Few such places exist in music, if any. Those which exist are usually teaching institutions, not professional businesses. Hollywood has studios that hire people, but getting yourself in one is quite a trick. You have to just make your mark as an idividual who won't be silenced, and be sure that you have access to lots of people. I learned the real ropes by becoming an international booking agent for one of the top 4 agencies (money-wise) in the country at that time. My performing in symphonies, concerts, touring, arranging, conducting, and everything else was almost useless until I learned the business side. Schools think they teach the business side, but few do. University of Wisconsin at Madison actually has a good arts-management program. I know this, because I would always see their teachers (hello out there, Lorraine Newman) and students like mother duck and ducklings going up and down the aisles of the trade shows. If you don't do that, you don't know the business. I never saw another program's students at trade shows. What were they teaching?<br><br>Your mileage may vary. If I were looking for a school that teaches it all, I'd place my money on University of North Texas, Berkelee, Miami, and... hmmmm... well, that's about it. <br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: Shooshie

Amen, Steve! - 01/19/04 06:57 PM

So true.<br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:04 PM

Can I have the 'Shooshie Cliff Notes' please? <br><br>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:10 PM

That WAS the Shoosh notes, DM! Do you want the full 20 volume set?<br><br><br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:29 PM

On audiobook, please.<br><br>
Posted by: lislaz

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:32 PM

Why? You got some ITMS gift certificates?<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: Lori

Re: PS: Nutty... - 01/19/04 07:35 PM

I am not sure if I know what the midi edit window is. Is it the little window that opens at the bottom of Garageband when you click the scissors icon or double click on a track?<br><br>If it is that window, then you can place the cursor to the left of the record button and click and it becomes a grab hand. <br>Use the hand to raise the window.<br>Also, on the bottom left is a slider that will enlarge the area you want to edit.<br>Is that what you mean?<br><br><br>My Stuff
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:49 PM

I understand where Iraszl is coming from with this one. When I first read the info on Garageband, I thought..."ugh. now THIS".<br><br>People are starting to accept the inferior audio quality of a compressed music file. What happens when the music industry learns that they can sell a cheap download that sounds like crap? The music will get worse.<br><br>Music has been reduced to "stock" quality because music labels don't want to wait for artists to become inspired to produce. That's a time/money risk. So what has been offered to the public in the last ten years or so is an easily produced commodity. <br><br>How does this relate to Garageband? In my opinion, GB will eventually contribute to the well-in-progress dumbing down of music...not by "bringing the tools to the people", but by lowering people's expectations of Art. <br><br>Deconstruction is the "new education", and I'm just glad I won't be around after the next 40 years to see how that all pans out.<br><br>===================<br><br>S3V3N<br>Washington, DC USA
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 07:55 PM

Thanks for the list. Some generally good schools in there.<br><br>About the snobbery/elitism--that's always a risk.<br><br>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: PS: Nutty... - 01/19/04 07:55 PM

That's the correct window, Lori, but at its maximum, it will only allow you to see two octaves. That makes MIDI editing really hard. The closest analogy I can think of is back when MacPaint only allowed you to see a tiny part of a full-page drawing at one time. You had to scroll to see the rest of your drawing. It's hard to draw when you can't see the objects you're drawing in relation to. Same with MIDI editing. You need to be able to see at least the full 88, then scroll up or down to the extremes. <br><br>Now, if you find a menu item that opens that window up to full screen or something, I'm going to be really embarrassed. But I'd be pleased!<br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: hayesk

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:04 PM

"Music has been reduced to "stock" quality because music labels don't want to wait for artists to become inspired to produce. That's a time/money risk. So what has been offered to the public in the last ten years or so is an easily produced commodity. "<br><br>I disagree. Ever since there was a music business (since the 1940's?), it's always been like that. It hasn't been "reduced" at all. This isn't a new phenomenon. The processed, canned stuff gets most air play because it's cheap and easy to sell. Go back to the beginning of the billboard charts and you'll see it.<br><br>But if you put in the effort to search, the good music is there. Today, yesterday, and years ago. It will be the same tomorrow.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:11 PM

If you honestly think that this little application, released in the year 2004, signals the onset of 'crap' music, then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the radio since, oh, the 70's...<br><br>It's a hobby tool, nothing more. If it helps that one kid out there discover a little musical talent, and he goes on to make some better music with some better tools, then I think Apple did its job. <br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:11 PM

I agree..I think we're essentially saying the same thing. Art/Music has evovled consistently towards a minimal incarnation since...forever. It's just that in the last few years it has become much more noticeable with the "reality" craze. I see this as expectations being lowered, so Art/Music follows suit.<br><br>I'm not saying that GB will destroy music by helping John Q. Public make a song. I believe, instead, it will further lower people's expectations of music.<br><br>===================<br><br>S3V3N<br>Washington, DC USA
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:19 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>In my opinion, GB will eventually contribute to the well-in-progress dumbing down of music...not by "bringing the tools to the people", but by lowering people's expectations of Art.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I disagree. The music industry has been feeding us this building-block crap now for many years. Real composers and arrangers have been made sick with the expectations to produce songs in this fashion. The consumer is none the wiser, thinking that this is some kind of hip sound of great technical artistry. <br><br>Now, consumers will know sleazy commercial crap when they hear it, since anyone can do it with GarageBand. I'm betting that in no time at all, people will be wanting to hear through-composed songs, and the mass-production style will--we can hope--fade back into the control room from which it came. But then again... GarageBand users can't make up even 1% of the market. We may be wasting our breath.<br><br>I think if anything the loops of GarageBand and SoundTrack will have the effect of separating good music from the busy-noise soundtrack music that accompanies most low-budget sports specials on ESPN. It may get worse before it gets better, but just like Flower Power, bellbottoms, and Elvis sideburns, GarageBand's loops will probably date anyone who tries to use them in a serious way.<br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 08:31 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I disagree. Ever since there was a music business (since the 1940's?), it's always been like that. It hasn't been "reduced" at all. This isn't a new phenomenon. The processed, canned stuff gets most air play because it's cheap and easy to sell. Go back to the beginning of the billboard charts and you'll see it<p><hr></blockquote><p>Whoaaaa! No way. The Beatles composed their music, along with George Martin (the only one of the group who knew his way around an orchestra). All the music up to the 1980s was produced by real musicians who had to write it and perform it. A producer like Phil Spector could play god with musicians, but in the end he still had a huge studio jam-packed full of real, 100% talent behind that "wall of sound." Look at Earth, Wind, and Fire, Tower of Power, Weather Report, Chicago, and many other bands who began the sound that was later reduced to loops. Santana. Jobim. Marley. Oh man, the list is just huge. These guys were top-notch players, top-notch arrangers and writers and performers. <br><br>And are you really going to tell me that Duke Ellington, Glenn Miller, Count Basie, Dorsey, Cannonball, Bird, Mingus, Coltraine, and a hundred other jazz players were "canned?" There had to be something to "can" in the first place. These guys were the real thing. You can find some of their licks in your GarageBand loops. <br><br>The music industry did not begin in 1992. Processed and canned stuff may have, but before that, there were some high-powered pros out there living the hard life to make the songs you heard on the radio. The marketing may have been packaged, and the producers may have left their slime trail across the guys who did the real work, but the work stands as a monument to our industry.<br><br>I think we agree in principle, but you can't set that "canned" clock back to 1940! <br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:01 PM

I really don't know as much about music as I do about literature, but I suspect the same thing is true for both arts. There are always spectacular artists at any given time, but the number of second and third rate artists is always larger than of first rate artists. Sure we had great music in the 60s--but for every one Beatles song there were a dozen by people like Crispian St. Peter or The Monkees. The trick of it is that looking back we tend to remember only the great stuff--and it tends to be the great stuff that survives in new recordings, new covers, reissues, etc. The further back in time we go, the truer that is. I do a lot of reading of literature from the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries. Now those centuries were really rich in great writers--Shakespeare, Milton, Fielding, one in each century, and in three different genres, for instance. And what most people remember from those centuries are those genial works. But there is also a lot lot lot of pure dreck in that time, much of which I'm obliged to be fairly familiar with. And in sheer number, the same thing is true as for the music of the 60s. For every Shakespeare there are dozens of Barnabe Googes. Alas! <br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:22 PM

forget the dictionary version. <br>all of your money could not buy you any talent . <br>Obviously if you cannot understand what talent is then you haven't got any.<br>just accept itand stop foul mouthing those who do.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 09:36 PM

Isengard acting up again?<br><br>
Posted by: sean

Re: PS: Nutty... - 01/19/04 10:34 PM

holy geeze...i just became good on the piano again. i had no idea it was so easy to "edit" notes. i should be receiving my keyboard from apple soon...still hasn't shipped though a week later (dang it). i have been practicing a tchaikovsky piece on my grand piano and i sound pretty bad as the piece is new to me and i am quite rusty, but determined to get this one recorded and add some background loops, etc. to share with my friends here. well, i had no idea about editing midi until you and lori pointed it out to me. i can now focus on playing any note for the desired length of time and then making it the right note later on...i can even play one hand at a time (since that is what throws me off right now). this is going to rule. <br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 10:42 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>That's about the most ill-considered and unfortunate statement anyone in the creative field could ever put forth! You couldn't possibly have been thinking when you typed those words. You're much too bright a guy to have said something like that if you had been. If "hobbyists" shouldn't enter the arts, where would the next generation of talent come from? Not that getting paid for a natural gift is bad, but consider that most hobbyists do what they do for the love of it, and IMHO, that kind of equity yields an honesty and purity that many "pros" have long since forsaken for the almighty dollar.<br><br>Now go to your room young man, and think about what you said.<p><hr></blockquote><p>One might expect from a man of your age and experience to have clarity on things. I very much value your opinion as a young ambitious creative, so after my most ill-considered and unfortunate statement anyone in the creative field could ever put forth, I was looking forwards to your words. To show my appreciation here is my try to put together another thoughtless post. But of course with age comes a big ego and irrational thinking. You're probably tired after the whole day of work in the big city. So no offense. <br><br>After my sick intro inspired by your typical patronizing message (which I certainly expected and enjoy, although i missed the infamous you bad, bad boy expression) let me go back to our debate. <br><br>A hobbyist can of course enter high arts, but than he is not a hobbyist anymore is he? also, you are not only confusing hobbyists and artist, but also confusing artists and commercial artists. These are 3 different roles a man can play in life. You can do two of these at the same time and a man with skills in one can surely enter an other, but it doesn't mean we should consider these as a big mass with no end and no boundaries. These IMHO are very clearly defined areas. You can surely tell what's art from what is commercial art and what is a product of a hobbyist. And one certainly can and preferably should do all these 3 things for the love of it.<br><br>Now, go back to your penthouse office, take a rest and think about what you really wanted to say. <br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 11:22 PM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>A hobbyist can of course enter high arts, but than he is not a hobbyist anymore is he? also, you are not only confusing hobbyists and artist, but also confusing artists and commercial artists. These are 3 different roles a man can play in life. You can do two of these at the same time and a man with skills in one can surely enter an other, but it doesn't mean we should consider these as a big mass with no end and no boundaries. These IMHO are very clearly defined areas. You can surely tell what's art from what is commercial art and what is a product of a hobbyist. And one certainly can and preferably should do all these 3 things for the love of it.<p><hr></blockquote><p>So, you're negating yourself? If a hobbyist cannot enter the high arts without becoming something OTHER than a hobbyist, then what was your original point? To keep hobbyists out of the high arts? Self-contradictory, it would seem, although admittedly I'm not looking at your original statement. Maybe I don't remember the trick by which you accomplished this without contradicting yourself. But it's an excellent exercise in thought. <br><br>Maybe the word you're really seeking is "amateur." In its original usage along these lines, it represented someone who had not made a profession of his art, and thus dabbled in it with purity of purpose. Amateurs were considered scholars and artists of noble intent. While their work may not have surpassed the masters who churned out daily cantatas, concertos, suites, and sonatas whether they wanted to or not, their appreciation of the masters and their philosophical thought led to the establishment of musical societies and music history (or art or dance, etc.) such that we have written records of the evolution of our arts. They served a mighty calling, and couldn't have done so without their own familiarity in the subject, acquired through dabbling in their own compositions and recitals. <br><br>By all means, let's keep the amateurs in the arts. If nothing else, it makes a great hobby and keeps 'em off the streets! And who else is going to buy tickets?<br><br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/19/04 11:38 PM

well, you're right there is some sort of contradiction. i just brought up this issue for a public debate, so we can all throw in our thoughts and opinions. as the thread got longer my opinion shaped and that's what public debate is for isn't it? it doesn't mean that i suck, does it? <br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 12:33 AM

it was about time somebody said that.<br><br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 04:01 AM

Right. Of course. Your are wise beyond you years, oh sagely one. And I am but a dottering old man, who's feeble brain has been poisened by the treacherous fumes of the mighty megalopolis over which my lofty tower presides...<br><br>Where was it now. Why, in my confused state, I've forgotten where it is. Or what I do there. Wait, I think I remember something about 3 things a man can do in life... Oh no! It's fading again. I'm... so... tired... <br><br><br><br>Ivan, If you consider my remarks predictable, anyone here could have written your defensive little tirade a month before you said it. And yes, I already have thought about what I "really wanted to say" — before I said it. You still don't see the narrowness in what you said. Perhaps your own ego blocked your view...<br><br>*turns walker around and shuffles back to rest home where men of his "age and experience" belong.*<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 04:03 AM

So, why didn't you then?<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 04:21 AM

because i am different.?<br>point is.. however clever and mature and level headed you may be.. and i do not doubt that.. so are we.. or did you forget that?<br>you are just a little too judgemental of others..<br><br>this should be in he computer victimology thread.<br><br>It is so easy to denigrate somebody else when all you have in front of you is a screen and a keyboard. <br>I am positive that face to face, we would all have much different conversations.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TreeBeard on 01/20/04 07:23 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 04:51 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>It is so easy to denigrate somebody else when all you have in front of you is a screen and a keyboard. <br>I am positive that face to face, we would all have much different conversations.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Perhaps. But real or virtual, I prefer to call 'em as I see 'em. And having said that, let me add that you calling anyone else "judgmental of others" is a glaring case of the pot and the tea-kettle. However, in the context of many of these threads, "judgementalism" is a quick and easy indictment to throw at anyone who's opinion or position differs from your own. You have to admit, you do a pretty good job of denegrating others when it suits your fancy.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 05:29 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You still don't see the narrowness in what you said. Perhaps your own ego blocked your view...<p><hr></blockquote><p>on another note, not necessarily related to our conversation, but rather speaking generally, i don't like it when people question the opponents credibility in the debate rather than questioning the topic of the debate itself. i know that it's a an accepted method in a debate, especially when one lacks arguments about the topic, but I think it gets us nowhere. it's easy to say your arguments do not matter because you're an idiot.<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: hayesk

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 05:32 AM

"I think we agree in principle, but you can't set that "canned" clock back to 1940! "<br><br>Yes, I am. But we tend to forgot the crap from back then. You named only a few good artists. But we all forget the bad ones. Let's go back to the 1980's - Can you remember the hit song by "Candi and the Backbeat" (yes, a real "artist"). Probably not, because it was garbage.<br><br>The other thing is that the music business caters to younger people. As we get older, we like less and less of the popular stuff. When we say something is crap that our kids like, and the same thing happened when we were kids.<br><br>
Posted by: LoveTheBomb

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 05:33 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p> as the thread got longer my opinion shaped and that's what public debate is for isn't it? it doesn't mean that i suck, does it? <p><hr></blockquote><p>No, in fact, you just did something that's hard for most people. A lot of people (myself included) get really stubborn in debate and refuse to budge from their original position. This is bad. Debates are supposed to open people's mind and get people to really discuss the matter at hand... but instead most people take it personally and get too caught up in trying to *win* the debate.<br><br>-Matt<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 07:30 AM

This thread is awesome. I nominate it for the 2004 Threadies. Don't forget it next year when it comes time to cast your vote.<br><br>===================<br><br>S3V3N<br>Washington, DC USA
Posted by: hayesk

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 08:12 AM

Damn. We should have aired it in December in a little-known BBS in Iowa.<br><br>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 09:46 AM

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You named only a few good artists. But we all forget the bad ones. Let's go back to the 1980's - Can you remember the hit song by "Candi and the Backbeat" (yes, a real "artist"). Probably not, because it was garbage.<p><hr></blockquote><p>True, but now I'd say a HUGE percentage, maybe the majority, of popular recorded music is created with these canned tricks. I'm talking about the actual production methods of what is considered to be "good" music. You're talking about bad artists. In the old days, there just weren't many canned tricks for producing the actual music. We're talking about things like loops here, which makes it relevant to the currend discussion about GarageBand; not just about shabby product. There are some highly skilled people using loops, and some of it sounds pretty good. But it's still canned. They didn't have musicians in front of them; they dragged a few sound files over to a track, lined them up with measure numbers, and hit "record." <br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 09:49 AM

You? Suck? No way! That's not my implication at all. I just think you were promoting dialogue, and that's a good thing in a forum!<br><br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 09:51 AM

C'mon Shooshie- you really told him he sucked, didn't you?<br><br>It's gotta be hidden in there somewhere...<br><br>
Posted by: Shooshie

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 09:53 AM

Read it backward, DM. Circle the letters... y... o... u..., etc. It's one of those subliminal things.<br><br><br><br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: ChrisN

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 10:09 AM

It is surprising that anybody could look at GarageBand as anything but a gift of musical technology to the average common folk. It is truly a great thing. <br><br>Music sprang from primitive man and has been with us ever since. However,"professional" music has not always been available to the common folk. Even with the renaissance, how many common folk were privileged enough to be able to listen to an orchestra? We take it for granted now, because of technology, but it wasn't always available to us common folk. Thanks to the technology of recorded music, radio and other forms of mass communication music is available to virtually everyone.<br><br>The technology of music making has also followed a similar path of increasing availability to the common folk. GarageBand is merely another stepping stone in that path. Thank goodness this path is still open and progressing. Why would anyone fear that or wish it closed off. After all, we also have the technology to change the station or the channel or to simply not listen to what we don't want to. This is not a threat to the sensibilities of the "professionals". It is a wonderful gift to anyone who wishes to have some creative fun and enhance their life.<br><br>Chris<br><br>Light-Imagery<br> <br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 10:10 AM

Ah-HA!!!<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: lislaz

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 10:14 AM

HAHAHAHA!<br><br>
Posted by: Shooshie

LOL! - 01/20/04 10:31 AM

Dangit! Busted!<br><br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 11:02 AM

Not to belabor this, but show me where I called you an idiot. Yes, I said there's something you don't get yet, but if you re-read my first post, you'll see I also said your much to bright to have said something like that had you thought about it. That's not a slam, my friend, that's a vote of confidence. That's saying you're capable of better. Translation: constructive criticism.<br><br>In time, you'll learn to get as give as you get, but until you do, it's best not to throw the kind of personal jabs you did if you don't want the other person to jab back.<br><br>Nuff sed — by me at least.<br><br>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 12:06 PM

I KNEW IT, I KNEW IT! Bad Sooshie!<br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 12:12 PM

I know Steve, I wasn't talking specifically about this thread but in general. No hard feelings. I always read your posts carefully and I do need to learn to accept criticism. I could never deal with it, but I guess it's a good sign that at least now I realize it. Anyway, as you said enough of me whining. I feel like a girl. <br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: iraszl

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 12:14 PM

I'm a man with big cOjOnes! <br><br><pre>PMG5/1.8Ghz/1GBRAM, PBG3/400Mhz/768MBRAM, AirportX</pre><p>
Posted by: nebosuke

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 02:04 PM

That's alright, it's nice to feel a girl.<br><br>...what's that? Oh, nevermind.<br><br>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 07:39 PM

Can you cook? <br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 08:34 PM

now now. <br>Show me how i denigrate. <br>since i showed you.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: yoyo52

Re: GarbageBand - 01/20/04 08:51 PM

How about this? I mean, attacking an idea, even denigrating it, is fine and dandy. But I really hate to see ad hominem attacks.<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 01:38 AM

read the post above it.<br>and the one above that // eat your own words.<br>a<br>All i was alluding to is that talent is latent. <br>If a cricket coach spots a talented peson he may say .. you are going to be a leg spin bowler. The leg spin bowler to be .. maywell not know that he has such a talent at all.. and will say to the coach "who me?"<br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TreeBeard on 01/21/04 04:55 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 03:46 AM

Took the post right outta my mouse. <br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 04:04 AM

no point being a smartarse .. address the issue is the point.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 04:23 AM

No one's being a smartass, m'friend. You asked for an example, and someone got to it before I did, having just seen your request early this AM. The point has been adressed. <br><br>Pot, meet Kettle. *ta-daaaaa*<br><br>But is Kettle it denial? *dun-dun-dunnnnnnnnnnnn*<br><br>Tune in again next week for another episode of AS THE STOMACH TURNS *do-to-to DOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...*<br><br><br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 04:29 AM

rubbish . <br>I don't think you have paid any attention to what has been said.<br>and that is with a full stop.<br>come down off your cloud.<br><br>It is an extremmely rare person that recognises their own talent.<br>It is usually someone else that points them in the correct direction.<br><br><br>you have a 'see each members post'.<br><br>well if you are going to make an argument check your facts.. properly.<br>check nuttys, posts check mime.<br>while you are at it examine your own. run them past one of your non internet friends or your wife.. your kids? <br><br>bet you aren't game.<br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 04:43 AM

*sigh*<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 04:54 AM

so who is in denial?<br>sigh all you like. <br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 05:10 AM

You are not the first, nor will you be the last to call me opinionated or a hardass. And if you think I don't know that I am, well, scratch that myth. But if you think I'm going to waste another post beyond this one defending my POV, fuhgeddaboutit. We'll just have to agree to disagree, and move on.<br><br>Now, if you'll 'scuzeme, I gotta get to work (where my co-workers and clients happen to consider my hardass-ness and opinions an asset). <br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 05:11 AM

i did not attack nutty's principles.<br>whatever way you prefer to see it.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 05:13 AM

Well just remember to keep your hard arse out of my face for i have no need for your skidmarks. <br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 05:33 AM

What was that post about people keeping up arguments because they're 'trying to win them'?<br><br>Sheesh!<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 05:40 AM

not all my friend.<br>i don't really care who wins any argument.<br>I just have a pet hate for those ad hominems that were referred to. and I have a simple reason for knowing that I never make them.<br>I have just noticed a real conversation killing style here in certain posters and I attempted to address it. The same style was blamed on me is all. Proof is not really in the pudding when people do not coomprehend reading and comprehension and prefer to be some hard arse.. what is that? constipation?<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 06:10 AM

Thanks for adding value to the thread. The way you're grinding that axe, it'll be nothin' but a handle in no time.<br><br>Over & out.<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 06:18 AM

have another look at the title of the thread.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 06:19 AM

have another look at the title of the thread.<br>then have a think about your contributions..<br>hard arse indeed <br>is that a garbage can i hear a rattling?<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: nutty

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 06:57 AM

Great i dont have much money anyway.<br><br>I guess writing the software you slam makes me a no talent?<br><br>please refrain from personal attacks or i will have the moderators ban you from posting here.<br><br>
Posted by: nutty

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 06:57 AM

thanks yoyo i missed that one.<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 07:03 AM

Comprehension, though, requires two parts- those doing the comprehending, and those writing (or speaking) what's being comprehended.<br><br>Communication is such a delicate art that entire countries can go to war because of it.<br><br>You expect any less in this forum?<br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 07:14 AM

I have not at all actually criticised the software. Not in any way and I did not really write the words 'a no talent' nor did I call you that.. Please read my words carefully as I do not write in binary.<br>I do not make personal attacks.<br>I will more than likely consider purchase of your product at some time no doubt but that does not preclude me from having free speech about the product. In fact when I buy it I am perfectly able to make more comments, some of which may be glowing.<br>My stance here was that I was not being allowed to say such things. These are genuine criticisms. Sure a crafstman is made a better crafstman by tools but he needs to have the talent to use them, is all I started off saying. i said that software or tools do not make a craftsman. They may help a craftsman become a better craftsman but a craftsman first he must be. Now that I have been goaded and bullied, attempting to make me out a monster and attemptinig to provoke me calling me names .. I may well not consider buying the product if I so wish. These are my perogatives and i should not have to stand abuse for keeping within my rights. Atempt to ban me if you like but when the mods read the posts iI do not think they will agree. <br>What for? What did I do? nothing.. but mind my own business.. Attack me and I have the right to defence. Try being sensitive to your customers. We may help you write better software and even help you become a nicer person to boot.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 07:16 AM

<br>no but i do expect better.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."
Posted by: nutty

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 07:20 AM

"I do not make personal attacks."<br><br><br>Quote from you to me:<br>"all of your money could not buy you any talent "<br><br><br>It's over. I suggest you do what i'm going to do and ignore any post that you create. <br><br><br>
Posted by: TreeBeard

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 07:24 AM

please read the post you made above the one that you call a personal attack.. the one i replied to under your name. <br>My post did not attack you.. It attacked the concept of buying dictionary versions of talent.. Talent is indeed something that cannot be got from your software. Not directly. unless it is a software dictionary that is.<br><br>Read further above and see what you said to my initial post. <br>Now tell me that I attacked you if you can.<br>by all means prove it to me, I am all ears. <br><br>I do not know what makes you think that I care if you do not read my posts .. knowing that you are going to create a storm in a tea cup.<br><br>I knew all along that it was purported that you wrote the software.. read my first comment again. My comment was suggestive of improvements one could make to such software .. akin to the improvements Suzuki made to learning the violin. Talent needs to be nurtured not abused.<br><br>"Today is a gift, that's why its called the present."<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TreeBeard on 01/21/04 10:34 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 08:29 AM

I agree about Tools vs Talent:<br><br>For Instance; I will never be able to take pictures like my friend JoAnne<br>She uses a $10 Kodak and I can use a $400 Canon, <br>and she'd STILL take better photos, because she has an absolute TALENT for composition!<br>She is UNSCHOOLED, and never even HEARD the word"Composition" and yet she has an <br>ABSOLUTE GENIUS for it!<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>yes talent can be recognized by tutors far better than the talented person can see it. <br>Talent has to be nurtured out of the womb .. not crushed under a sandshoe... er sneaker? <p><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I agree, and I make certain to encourage her talent! knowing that so few people want<br>to see someone other than themselves, succeed.<br><br>You see, when I began applying to ArtSchools, It was the INSTRUCTORS that called me <br>an "ILLUSTRATOR" before I even knew the term.<br>It was NOT as if I went in WANTING to draw pictures in children's books or anything, they just <br>SAW where my ability lay, and put a name to it. I was simply doing what came natural. <br><br>TRANSFERRING that "talent" to COMPUTER art is another thing! <br>I DO NOT Have a Talent for working with COMPUTERS <br><br>IMO, The BEST thing about GarageBand will be how far it will go towards ENCOURAGING people<br>that have latent abilities, and creative juices that may have gone untapped, by allowing them<br> to explore what is available in today's world.<br><br>I ALSO See the potential of COLLABORATIONS that will doubtlessly bear fruit!<br><br>Having known ACTUAL "GARAGE BANDS" (that IMO are darned good), fall apart before the<br>talents ever bore fruit, due to lack of "right the breaks" or the "right contacts" or the lack of <br>money to rent studios & cut demos (whatever) that may now have a way of breaking through! <br><br>LOLOLOL If not, as was pointed out earlier, "we can still exercise the right to change the channel!"<br><br>What about the person that may have a gift for composition?<br>...but has no orchestra?<br>Or a talent for MIXING Sounds?<br>...but has NO SOUNDS TO MIX?<br><br>I See GREAT Potential for GarageBand!<br><br>I'll be getting iLife for iPhoto, <br>...but I know a certain musician that will be using my computer the second he finds the place<br>where he can plug in his WashBurn! <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Celandine on 01/21/04 11:49 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>
Posted by: sross

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 08:47 AM

Good positive and nonjudgemental post.<br>Welcome, Celandine!<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 08:50 AM

<br><br>Why, thankyou, Stanley!
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 08:51 AM

Stan? Who's that?<br><br>
Posted by: sross

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 08:56 AM

You're Welcome, Ollie!<br><br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 08:58 AM

Gotcha. Took me a second.<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 09:03 AM

GREAT .GIF! LOLOL<br>L&H are my all time Faves!<br><br><br><br>Yo, Daddy...<br>Do you know THIS Chap?<br>:hint: He uses the same initials.<br>he is my favorite cartoon character.<br><br>
Posted by: nutty

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 09:04 AM

easy - Danger Mouse<br><br>
Posted by: Celandine

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 09:11 AM

<br><br>yupyup<br>Although this topic seems to have run it's course;<br>...this is WAY off topic, here.<br>wouldn't do to get sacked my very first day, and all.<br>
Posted by: DaddyMac

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 09:27 AM

Where do you think my avatar came from? <br><br>
Posted by: hayesk

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 09:32 AM

Well, TB, I read this a few pages back:<br><br>" forget the dictionary version.<br>all of your money could not buy you any talent .<br>Obviously if you cannot understand what talent is then you haven't got any.<br>just accept itand stop foul mouthing those who do."<br><br>It sounded like you were claiming that nutty neither has talent or the ability to understand it. It sounded like a personal attack. Perhaps you need to word your replies more carefully if that is not what you intended.<br><br>Regardless, can we just put it behind us all and forget it? GB is a great piece of software and will help bring out the talent of musicians everywhere, no matter where we believe the talent came from or what it takes to recognize it.<br><br>
Posted by: squareman

Re: GarbageBand - 01/21/04 09:44 AM

In the words of Cpt. James T. Kirk: "No more BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!"<br><br>