I never knew this about Apple

Posted by: Nana

I never knew this about Apple - 11/20/11 11:17 AM

My head must have been buried in the sand......


Apple's American job disaster

shocked
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/20/11 11:38 AM

Uhm, they aren't the only ones to move out. Car companies, etc. thanks to union workers for that.
Posted by: starmillway

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/20/11 12:02 PM

.
If we could get rid of unions, would it be possible to get mass production/manufacturing plants/factories in the United States again?

That is the only way I could see it happening.

.
Posted by: carp

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/20/11 02:33 PM

The plant was profitable and well-run, but Wall Street's relentless focus on short-term earnings demanded results.

Well not so much the Unions - Sure unions does make manufacturing a lot more expensive then say a non union shop just across the street . However comparing US to China is like Apples to Oranges laugh for one thing in China the cost of living is far lower than the US and therefore can pay people a ridiculous low rate of pay <- its sorta relative.

Now Japan and even Taiwan is already reached their limits and now is out sourcing them selfs. China middle class is raising fast and they suspect in 10 years China it self will be out sourcing as well, maybe to Malaysia or even them 3rd world African countries ?

Anyway
Getting rid of unions is not the answer - because even the non union shops cannot even come close to what over seas put out cost wise.

Bottom line
Get rid of Wall Street short term mantra is the way to go.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/20/11 05:50 PM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
Uhm, they aren't the only ones to move out. Car companies, etc. thanks to union workers for that.

Yep. Thank the unions for eliminating sweat shops and child labor. Without the unions, we can go to work for just pennies an hour. crazy
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/20/11 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo

Yep. Thank the unions for eliminating sweat shops and child labor. Without the unions, we can go to work for just pennies an hour. crazy


That arguement was good 80 years ago, but unions have outlived their usefulness.

Ford was paying guys 20+ an hour to turn a wrench 8 hours...crazy! They have finally been able to lower entry level pay to $15/hour.

The union hall has this big building with 2 full basketball courts. Paid for by union dues they extort out of the employees. (try working at a place like UPS/Ford and NOT join the union...good luck with that)

I worked for UPS for 2 years. Had to join the union. There was a lazy no good employee that UPS couldn't fire because of union bs

I have been a member of the teamsters, electricians, police, and another one in FL and I can honestly say that unions are past their prime.

Cost of living so high? Thank a union worker for driving up cost of the items you buy.

Is it any wonder that Mexicans can come to our country and do a better job at say roofing than your average American? Because we are lazy and expect things to be handed to us
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/20/11 07:07 PM

Yeah,,, this has been "news" for several years now. Apple outsourced... just like nearly every other tech company.
If you read Steve Jobs biography... Steve absolutely OBSESSED about his manufacturing plant in California. But then he was booted from the company and and when he came back he had to make some changes to keep things afloat.

I love some of these posters comments...

Quote:
I'd like to start out by saying I am not an Apple guy. I understand the attraction of the product line and wish those well that enjoy it but it just does not speak to me. That being said I have to stick up for them here. They are being singled out when pretty much every company making any tech products is getting them made overseas.


Quote:
This is why the US worker can't compete. The lazy Americans (reference to Perry's comment about Obama) are not only lazy, the are also spoiled. If we could simply outlaw the labor unions, lower the minimum wage to about a dollar an hour and bring back the sweatshops, complete with netting so that workers could not kill themselves by jumping from upper floors, we'd have a domestic competitive manufacturing environment right here in the United States. We wouldn't need to worry about health benefits or pensions. If the worker got sick we could beat them or fire them. Of course, the average worker, under the conditions mentioned in this article,would never live long enough to collect a pension so pensions would not be needed. And if the workers ever got up the nerve to organize into unions we could simply call in the Army and shoot them dead. Then we would be able to import hard working replacements from China. China sure sounds like a Proletarian Paradise, doesn't it? This approach would also solve our immigration problems. The US would be just like China and no one would want to come to the US for a better future. I've just put China on my ever growing "do not fly, do not visit" list!



Quote:
Get the timeline right... Before Steve Jobs came back to Apple in 1997 (ish), the company really was weeks away from going bankrupt. They moved production as cost-cutting measures when the competition was eating Apple alive. The "iPod factory sweatshops" also make computers for Dell, HP, and everyone else.
I would love to see Apple change back to US manufacturing, but who knows if that will ever happen.
I guess one positive is that Apple is the only computer company to successfully run retail stores (245 in the US) that all employ a bunch of people. At a time when more and more businesses rely on online sales (like Amazon's sweatshop warehouses), Apple is opening stores left and right with employees that seem happy to be there.


This one gives pause...
Quote:
Maybe you Apple Zombies didn't read the part about Apple having more cash than the Treasury. WAKE UP AMERICA. Apple is sucking the money out of this country, putting it in their banks and into China. Keep playing with your APPS till you are broke. Apple could employ American Works and still make a lot of Profit. This is what Occupy Wall Street is all about. Companies moving jobs overseas. How about At&t and Verizon. They all employ a lot of foreign workers instead of Americans. In the mean time Apple put all our record stores and book stores out of business too and again the money goes in their pockets. They don't give to charity or pay a dividend either. Keep supporting them if you want.




The article is designed to be inflammatory.. and it really shows itself with one of its last lines...


Quote:
To Stamp it's amazing to realize how quickly it all changed - how the door to so much opportunity and a secure future suddenly slammed shut after Apple began to subcontract out the making of its basic products and then shipped all the work to other countries. One day they had great jobs and the next day some were nomads, going from one employer to another, never knowing how long each job would last.

That last part is hilarious... that was years ago... and Apple is to blame for their having to be nomads...??
W/E.


Apple is the new MicroSoft.. the giant at the top of the pile... everyone wants to topple them off.. and then it will be the next guys turn.
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/21/11 03:10 AM

Pretty sad to see and read about good American jobs being outsourced in China where this country cannot be trusted at all.That is why the jobs situation is so pitiful.Bring home American Jobs!
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/21/11 05:49 AM

I guess you haven't heard all the vitriol directed at the minimum wage and the "relaxed" child labor law proposals going around. Corporate America wants slave labor.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/21/11 07:22 AM

Also...to the comment that I posted..

Quote:
In the mean time Apple put all our record stores and book stores out of business too and again the money goes in their pockets.


I see the point.. but I would also point out that there is always the other side of the coin. I now no longer burn gas driving to the record store and i am glad there are less jewel boxes everywhere, especially going into the trash. As far as putting book stores out of business.. again, I am not burning gas driving to the bookstore AND all the tree huggers should be jumping for joy since this will greatly reduce the need for logging... and I gain space in my home by not having tons of paperbacks and periodicals laying around.
Not to mention the ease of carrying all of the digital media items around now.... I remember being a student and LUGGING 40 pounds of books everywhere.
Posted by: MacGizmo

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/21/11 03:05 PM

The problem with getting rid of unions is that eventually, the company lowers wages to a point that people can't live off the wage - but hey, "we're providing jobs!"

I'll grant you that unions have largely outlived their usefulness. However, if you ask workers in Amazon's warehouse about their work conditions and pay, I think you'll gain a different perspective about unions.

Sure company X could save a ton by not paying union wages. But then the people working for those lower wages can't afford to buy the very products the company sells, or buy a car or home. This means less money in taxes for the government to run on. That in turn means increased costs for healthcare and more taxes. Big nasty circle.

Ultimately, we're all at fault for jobs going overseas. We aren't willing to pay more for our cars, computers, phones and other electronic gadgets. We demand $15 shirts, and $20 pairs of jeans. We aren't willing to pay more, so the companies have to find a way to make them for less (send it to China/Mexico/etc.).

Of course, we all know that when companies say they have to find a way to save money, lowering the ridiculous pay & golden parachutes of their top executives is never in the discussion.
Posted by: musicalmarv7

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/22/11 03:08 AM

Maybe our workers should start to lower their expectations of their salary and work a little cheaper so these jobs will not be outsourced to other countries.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/22/11 05:03 AM

LOLOL... what world are you living in.. that ain't gonna happen. It has to happen by law.....
Posted by: six_of_one

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/22/11 07:17 AM

Originally Posted By: musicalmarv7
Maybe our workers should start to lower their expectations of their salary and work a little cheaper so these jobs will not be outsourced to other countries.

Alternatively, maybe companies should lower their expectations of maximized profits and be happy with clearing, say, a mere $20M profit instead of the $30M they can make by putting people in the US out of jobs and people in Asia into meat-grinding sweatshops ...

When you realize many companies (like Apple) who outsource overseas do so not to stay in business but so they can satisfy expectations demands from the likes of Wall Street for ever-increasing and ever-expanding profits, the argument becomes really tough that the problem lies entirely with American workers unwilling to fall on their swords in the name of maximizing corporate success.

Regardless, when competing for jobs with what might as well be slavery in many parts of the world, exactly how low would you suggest American workers set their expectations?
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/22/11 08:33 AM

Quote:
Regardless, when competing for jobs with what might as well be slavery in many parts of the world, exactly how low would you suggest American workers set their expectations?


Exactly.. and that's what I mean by it's gotta be a law that makes this happen... such as a law that limits or taxes or punishes the outsourcing.
Posted by: Nana

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/22/11 11:42 AM

Editorial response to the article:

Posted: Tue, Nov. 22, 2011, 3:01 AM
Letters to the Editor

READER FEEDBACK

The Apple jobs disaster

Thank you to The Inquirer for continuing to publish the informative "What Went Wrong" series by Donald L. Bartlett and James B. Steele ("Apple's American job disaster," Sunday). The latest chapter on Apple provides sad evidence that Mitt Romney's statement "Corporations are people, my friend" is false. His assertion that "everything corporations earn go to the people" should be amended to "everything that corporations earn goes to the stockholders and the CEOs." While Apple's stock is worth $382 billion, not one Apple product is manufactured in the United States. This is a clear statement about how little Apple values the people.

Celia Lang, West Chester, celialang1375@comcast.net

http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20111122_Letters_to_the_Editor.html
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/22/11 03:00 PM

?? What's your point? Did you think Apple could manufacture here AND price their product higher than anyone else?
Or you thought that was the reason their prices were higher??

Can you show me a computer manufacturer that manufactures here? It used to be Dell... but not anymore.

Can you buy ANYTHING that doesn't say China?
Don't blame Apple... blame the laws.If everyone else kept manufacturing here.. so would Apple I bet.

But once the exodus started.... (half of the revenue for companies in the S&P 500 in the last couple of years has come from outside the U.S) how do you stay in business... by being competitive.
It sucks... I am not defending it... but stating why I think it is what it is.
It's the ruination of a nation. But it's not Apples fault.

==

You want a job... move overseas. In 2010 U.S. companies created 1.4 million jobs overseas while only creating 1 million here.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/22/11 03:10 PM

Blame ourselves and our government.

Quote:
Other economists, like Columbia University's Sachs, say multinational corporations have no choice, especially now that the quality of the global work force has improved. Sachs points out that the U.S. is falling in most global rankings for higher education while others are rising.

"We are not fulfilling the educational needs of our young people," says Sachs. "In a globalized world, there are serious consequences to that."
Posted by: zwei

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/23/11 06:52 AM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4
?? What's your point? Did you think Apple could manufacture here AND price their product higher than anyone else?
Or you thought that was the reason their prices were higher??

Can you show me a computer manufacturer that manufactures here? It used to be Dell... but not anymore.

Can you buy ANYTHING that doesn't say China?
Don't blame Apple... blame the laws.If everyone else kept manufacturing here.. so would Apple I bet.

But once the exodus started.... (half of the revenue for companies in the S&P 500 in the last couple of years has come from outside the U.S) how do you stay in business... by being competitive.
It sucks... I am not defending it... but stating why I think it is what it is.
It's the ruination of a nation. But it's not Apples fault.

You are correct, sir. It's sad, but that's how it is.
Posted by: carp

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/23/11 06:17 PM

Yep

Related
The 48 story building that was just built - I was surprise how much of the products came from China.

The rolling joke is;
made in China - assembled in the US laugh
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: I never knew this about Apple - 11/28/11 03:23 PM

I just got the part in the biography by Walter Isaacson where Jobs met with Obama. He stressed that something should be done to bring manufacturing back. He also stressed more engineers be trained. Then, and get this , he said he had $700,000 factory employees in China and 30,000 of those were engineers overseeing production. 700,000.
He said you can't find 30,000 manufacturing engineers in the U.S. to hire.

700,000.



700,000

We're getting our asses handed to us.