I'd be very, VERY careful...

Posted by: Phosphor

I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 09:40 AM

...about moving people's threads to different sub-forums, if I were a mod or admin.

It's a slippery slope, and you just might tend to start pissing people off if they come back and can't pick back up on a thread they were following or participating in without first hunting it down....even though it's just a "My Stuff--->Posts..." click away.

Not only that, but it's a fool's errand to try to ride herd on them, and to make decisions that folks might not like.

Better to just trust that most folks will post to the "proper" sub-forum.

I also think most folks are cool enough to say something like "Hey, were really getting into too much political discussion with this thread...let's move it to the Soapbox." And if they're not, surely there are users ( grin ) who will strongly suggest it.

Just something to think about.
Posted by: neil

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 09:47 AM

Well, for now, we've been moving stuff to get it set up. But, I hear your point.

We were on the lookout for new ones getting posted now to help form the new habits.

What does everyone else think? Could use feedback.

Thanks!

Neil

Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 09:48 AM

Actually, we can leave a "marker" that shows a thread was moved, and there is a checkbox that will send a PM to the thread starter about the move.

I don't think we have too much to worry about re: moving threads. Just post them where they should be. wink laugh
Posted by: Svend

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 09:57 AM

A PM is good, so is the marker.

I don't think people will get upset their thread is moved, I think the problem is when there is confusion and the person thinks their thread got deleted when they can't find it.

In the long run, moving threads to the proper category is best - it will build a knowledge base that people can use and search easily.
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 09:59 AM

A marker is cool, I guess, but I generally HATE when threads are moved. In ANY forum—here, MCC, Adobe, Apple, MacOSXHints, Mozilla.org—ANYwhere.

And I personally don't want to have to go read a P.M. telling me a thread I participated in was moved. Maybe others get excited about seeing they have a new P.M., but I prefer them only for personal communications that are best left off the forum.

What if it's a thread I'm just reading, and not participating in?

I'd just be extremely wary of moving ANY threads.
Posted by: Lea

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:01 AM


I'm a political junkie wonkette type, but it jars me like nails on a chalkboard to see political posts "sneakin' " into the Lounge. And people know what they're doing, in spite of whatever whiny spin they put on it. I'm glad ~ very glad ~ knowing that we can count on this kind of separation.

As for the tech stuff, I'm a professional lurker and avid peeping tomette, so I'm good with browsing the different tech fora. Moving threads around in those areas seems like a much tougher job.

I think a very few are too sensitive about the thread move thingie. My two centavos.




Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:02 AM

Well, with the marker, then anyone who was participating/reading the thread will know instantly where it went. I believe that it even leaves a link.

Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:04 AM

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean re: politics in general section.

I think we can keep a better handle on it now.
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Lea
I think a very few are too sensitive about the thread move thingie. My two centavos.

Here's something I posted on the Adobe Photoshop forum in response to someone who wanted to see a use of color in the Photoshop UI. The tack of my response is relevant to this discussion because it has to do with rote memory.

It's not about reading and navigating to where you want to go. In all seriousness, people don't want to have to do that, or they want to engage in active thinking about navigation as little as possible.

Try the experiments I outlined at my linked response below and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

http://www.adobeforums.com/webx?14@@.59b6e53d/6
Posted by: margadagio

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:24 AM

I don't have a problem with moving threads.

I'm glad there's a place for juicy rumours. I wasn't sure where I should post the gossip. Putting it into the different tech categories didn't make sense.
Posted by: neil

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:36 AM

Originally Posted By: margadagio
I'm glad there's a place for juicy rumours. I wasn't sure where I should post the gossip. Putting it into the different tech categories didn't make sense.


Yeah -- one of the nice things about re-organizing in the way that we did is that the forum delineations, for the most part, is based on real information ... the posts. With only a couple of places that I'm looking into a crystal ball on.

I think that's the best way to go about it.

Thanks!

Neil

Posted by: zwei

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:41 AM

I think the moving threads thing won't be that big of a deal once the forums get finalized. The only people it might affect are those people who will only try and post in Stan's lounge and nowhere else.

The marker is a good idea. Don't think we need to worry about PMs.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:53 AM

I don't know. Reading that Adobe forum (which, yuck, is ugly IMO), it kinda sounds like someone who gets stuck in their ways and hates changes. But that's just how I took it and I'm sure I'm wrong.

Anyway, it may ruffle a few feathers (very few IMO), but I'm sure in time they'll get used to it.
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:21 AM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
"...that Adobe forum (which, yuck, is ugly IMO)"

Heh...You have NO idea the kind of deafening roar that resulted when Adobe tried to change from what you see there.

TWICE, they tried it...once with a crapload of boxes, and separator lines, and light/dark alternate colorings per line in the thread index list; and then by trying to use the slow-as-hell ColdFusion/Flash-based forums like the ones used by the post-Macromedia merger forums.

The folks who were longtime regulars on the original AdobeForums.com forums (myself most definitely among the most vocal about this) want NOTHING distracting (no background image, no structure lines, no avatars, no signature files of any kind), high information density, and most of all it has to be as wicked fast as anywhere online. When they tried to migrate the old pre-merger Adobe forums into the ColdFusion packaging, navigating between posts and indicies was painfully slow.

Unlike the migration from the M.M. forums to what we have here, which went amazingly smoothly, they screwed things up so badly they had no choice but to return to the current state, albeit with a few performance enhancements from WebCrossing (the forum script's authoring company) that aren't very obvious.

It may be spartan, but we're really used to it and it's usually as fast to load between pages as anywhere I've ever seen. Only those sites running on Slashcode may be faster, given the enormous size of the database. In fact, several of us geekier long-timers even lobbied for Adobe to look into using Slashcode for their forums if they were going to update, but the super admin/forums manager—who is a pretty accessible guy—never even commented on the suggestion.
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:25 AM

I guess to each their own.
Posted by: MicMeister

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:34 AM

Heh, I actually liked that simplicity on the Adobeforums. Something 'dignified' and 'majestic' about it too, but that clear simplicity trimmed to nly the essence of it had a certain appeal to me, too. OTOH, on this forum and the predecessors I've liked the avatar stuff and whatnot, as this has always had a more personal and cozier feel to me.

I remember almost ten years ago I was always wanting to fill the white and empty space up constantly, and what I really disliked was the white background, nowadays I prefer more simplistic and the 'less is more' approach to all things design. And the white or light grey, and soft colors in general, background, depending on the purpose.
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:35 AM

Originally Posted By: John Rougeux
I guess to each their own.


Do a complete reload of this page. (Command + Shift + R in Firefox, dunno the shortcut for Safari).

I have a pretty robust Comcast connection and it took about 13 seconds.

Even on mighty threads on those ugly Adobe forums it takes less than 3 seconds. Granted there's no loading of stuff from other servers (unless somebody posts a pixentral.com-hosted thumbnail, or something), but for the folks there who spend a LOT of time answering questions, every little bit of load-time savings is important.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:35 AM

Originally Posted By: zwei

The marker is a good idea. Don't think we need to worry about PMs.

True, if we have the marker the PM isn't really needed.

Whatcha' all think?

Also, how long should we leave the marker, a week?
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:37 AM

6 seconds here to reload Firefox on a PC. (I'm at work using DSL)
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:38 AM

A week maximum.
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:39 AM


I do not think there will be the problems here that Adobe had! As long as we have our Stan's Lounge and Soapbox, we'll be happy.

I also think, the other forums will take off like a paper house'afire once they are opened up.

As far as the transition from MM to MacTech, if you count the time it took starting with when MT got the guy who knew what he was doing, it seems to me that it took less than a month to get to where we are now.

I couldn't be happier. Speed? Couldn't be better!

smile

Posted by: Jim_

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:45 AM

4 or 5 seconds on the reload for me, your connection sucks. wink
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 11:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Reboot
4 or 5 seconds on the reload for me, your connection sucks. wink

See, ya just never can tell what's going on between one's house and the servers all this stuff comes from.

Quite often on the Adobe Forums people will be reporting massive slow-downs, and even time-outs, while I sail merrily along at speeds as fast as ever.

Sometimes the converse occurs.

Posted by: FSM

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 12:38 PM

4 seconds here . . . 2 seconds on Adobe. both speeds are just fine with me.
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 01:08 PM

As I recall, oh noodley one...you have the 1Tbps UltraComcast connection, right?

wink laugh
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 01:31 PM

6 seconds to reload here at home on Safari
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 01:35 PM

Yeah, 2 seconds for me on that Adobe board.

My ISP is testing 100Mbps speeds cool can't wait for that!
Posted by: neil

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 02:19 PM

Guys, I would bet the speed difference here has much more to do with our net connection (compared to Adobe's). It's not attributed to page design, server, or even the server software.

For example, for me, this page that I'm posting to loads in less than 2 seconds. Then again, I'm on the same WAN as the web server. smile
Posted by: macdavid

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 03:01 PM

Yeah... a Marker or something. I didn't know where the hell my thread on YouTube went, and it took awhile to track it down.

Another question: When one unintentionally posts a new topic to the wrong forum, is there a way for the Poster to redirect it. For instance, I just had that happen with my post "We Need More of This." I meant for it to be in the Lounge, but inadvertently posted in in the Soapbox. It doesn't belong there, but I couldn't delete it or move it.
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 04:30 PM

Originally Posted By: macdavid
I didn't know where the hell my thread on YouTube went, and it took awhile to track it down.

That's what prompted me to start this thread.

smile
Posted by: Lea

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 04:55 PM


Actually, it works really well in the Box. But it's too good to languish with that crowd of miscreants. I hope it dances over to the lounge.




Posted by: Jim_

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 08:45 PM

Quote:
I didn't know where the hell my thread on YouTube went, and it took awhile to track it down.
Sorry you had to search for it, but with the current system it shouldn't happen again. Maybe yours was one of the recent posts that got caught in the mass move of topics from the now cleaned out and defunct General forum, or the Lounge? It was a recent post, just last night, and we just finished up the mass move last night. I haven't heard of any more getting moved, but nobody tells me anything anyway.

Quote:
I meant for it to be in the Lounge, but inadvertently posted in in the Soapbox. It doesn't belong there, but I couldn't delete it or move it.
Just PM one of the Mods.

Good to see you posting here again. Glad all is well. cool
Posted by: Jim_

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Phosphor
...about moving people's threads to different sub-forums, if I were a mod or admin.

Not only that, but it's a fool's errand to try to ride herd on them, and to make decisions that folks might not like.

I could be totally off base but my take, since you asked, kind of, is I don't think anyone's riding herd, and no one is censoring or making decisions based on content, it's about the topic not the content. It's a matter of keeping the topics in their proper slot for future reference. There will hopefully be an influx of users here when the forums go live and things need to be categorized. If you're searching for iPod info you don't want to have to search all forums when you can just search the iPod forum. I believe they're looking down the road and not at the current level of traffic.
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/13/08 10:14 PM

I say:

Let those of us who already know the lay of the land steer those who are off course to the proper place. It's almost always better coming from a peer than from a de facto "authority figure." (Read: any one of us "normal" visitors, or John Rougeux acting as a pal, and not necessarily wearing his "Mod Hat.")

But it must be done with friendly diplomacy, and not "HEY JACKASS! You posted in the wrong forum, you idiot!"

Unless, of course, somebody insists on playing the jackass game after being given the gentle nudges about how things work.

THAT'S when the mods and/or admins should step in.

I firmly believe that the tenor and personality of any forum develops as the regular visitors direct it to. I also know that it's the nature of threads to veer off topic. I also know that people get lost. I also know that some folks like to cause trouble, or think any sort of rules are beneath them. The regulars here will ultimately decide how the place plays...this I guarantee you. If rules are too rigid, folks will bail at an alarming rate.

Of course, it's not my forum. I simply pop in here 15-20 times a day. smile
Posted by: MacGizmo

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/14/08 07:59 AM

Originally Posted By: Phosphor
Better to just trust that most folks will post to the "proper" sub-forum.
And I think most people will, eventually. But setting up the forums at the start with categories requires us to move the threads into the proper forum to begin with.

Once the forums go live for all MacTech readers, I'm sure the need to move threads will be little to none.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/14/08 09:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Phosphor
But it must be done with friendly diplomacy, and not "HEY JACKASS! You posted in the wrong forum, you idiot!"

Has that happened? No. Will it happen? No. Why do you assume we will be so rude? I'm supposed to be just a worker bee, not a judge of character.

Quote:
I firmly believe that the tenor and personality of any forum develops as the regular visitors direct it to. I also know that it's the nature of threads to veer off topic.

Yes that happens, and those posts should stay is my opinion. Like in meatspace when conversations veer off, it happens, let it ride.

Quote:

I also know that people get lost. I also know that some folks like to cause trouble, or think any sort of rules are beneath them. The regulars here will ultimately decide how the place plays...this I guarantee you. If rules are too rigid, folks will bail at an alarming rate.

Again you're accusing us of possibly doing something in the future we haven't done yet, why? Give it a chance. If you actually see that rigidity happening, then say something, it's your right, but please stop making up problems that haven't happened and that there is no history of here.

I'll repeat. It is my understanding, what I was told to do, is to move posts according to topic, not judge them according to content. No one has any intention of censoring. Like you said the regulars here keep it in line pretty much. When things get too rude someone will speak up. History shows the mods won't have to, except in the case of someone like our old friend Satan/Habs24 or something.

The intent is to keep things organized, not sterilized.

Peace to ya' man. See ya' out in our (yours mine and everybody's) forum. wink
Posted by: Phosphor

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/14/08 09:45 AM

The problematic quote which tells me you've perhaps gotten the wrong impression:
Quote:
"...Again you're accusing us..."
Hooo-ooold on a minute. What's this "You vs. Us" stuff!?

I haven't meant anywhere in this thread to sound like I'm taking an adversarial position. Quite to the contrary, I sincerely intended to—as a fairly long-time family member—to offer a review of precautionary "Things To Consider" to ensure these forums get started off on the right foot.
Quote:
"...please stop making up problems that haven't happened and that there is no history of here..."
What "making up"? I got the idea to bring this up precisely because a thread I was participating in...which was friendly, interesting and informative and not hurting a damned thing continuing where it originated—got moved to a different forum. That's not a procedure I've seen often, in any number of forums I've been a member of over the last decade. Until I dug in and found out where it had been moved to, I started worrying that it might have been unapologetically deleted because I offered instructions on how to grab media that some folks think is not meant to be grabbed and "owned" by users on their own hard drives. It wasn't life-changing or anything, but it was a little distressing, because I had no way of knowing why it was moved until this dialogue progressed from my original starter post in this thread.

Just because the family moves to a new house doesn't mean the dynamic will change. Sure, we'll try to reiterate to the kids the importance of taking off their muddy boots in the mud room, or that there will be no more eating in the living room, but you and I both know how families behave after a while. They create and rise to their own surface level as comfortable agreements are reached by everybody. Me, and you, included. To find a reasonable sweet-spot where everyone can be more-or-less comfortable about the way things work, they have to be spread out on the kitchen table and discussed. And even after all the discussion is done, it's human nature to push and pull on the agreements at will.

smile smile
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: I'd be very, VERY careful... - 11/14/08 10:28 AM

Phos,
I can see where Reboot is coming from. You may not intend it, but your wording comes off as a "you vs us" but I know you didn't mean it that way.

As a member who has been here since almost the very beginning, I'm wondering why you would create such a thread.

Look, here's what has happened since we moved to this server:
New forums were created. We, we being Neil, Reboot, Gizmo, and myself, moved threads from a forum that was going to be deleted. We moved those to the new one.

Now we are going to (slowly) go through Stan's Forum and weed out the ones that don't belong there (hardware, software, etc) and put them in their rightful forum.

Presently and in the future, if any new thread gets started in the wrong forum, one of us should move it to the rightful forum.

Reason? So that if anyone (new or old) came to the forums and wanted to find an answer, they shouldn't have to look (and get results) from several different forums. Got an iPod question? Look in the iPod section!

As far as your thread that got moved goes, I don't know which one that was, but I can honestly say that it was probably a mistake that a marker wasn't left in it's place. We are going to do our best to make sure that happens.

And hey, if we forget to leave one, send us a message asking "hey, what happened to my thread?" and we'll help you find it. There is no malicious intent on moving threads. We have been here for a long time, I don't think that all of the sudden we are going to get all hell bent on rules. Give us that, won't ya?