My first dumb question

Posted by: papabill

My first dumb question - 01/19/10 04:15 PM

If I may ask the first of what may well be many dumb questions, I shall.

I am the proud owner of a new (new to me, anyway) PowerPC G3, and I don't have a Mac monitor, but I do have a 'standard' PC vga monitor.

My question is this: can I use a 'standard PC video card' in this machine?

Thanks
Posted by: John Rougeux

Re: My first dumb question - 01/19/10 04:38 PM

Nope, it has to be a mac video card. You can use a standard monitor...they aren't PC (windows) only.
Posted by: carp

Re: My first dumb question - 01/19/10 04:49 PM

John is right PapaBill

I would have think a better experience to the Mac World , would have been better then a G3 - thats like going back to Windows XP or 3.1

Anyway
Best if you got at least a G5 Mac - I see it all the time , switchers going to old shiit then complain about their experience <-- mind boggling
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: My first dumb question - 01/19/10 04:50 PM

OK.. on to the details.. which G3 is it?
What OS does it have on it?
If it's a Blue and White model you can upgrade the chips to G4 chips.. and vid cards can be had for cheap.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/20/10 03:14 AM

It's a Platinum G3. I don't know what OS is on it, because I don't have a video adapter so I can hook up the monitor.

And as far as it would have been better to get something newer that a G3, it was given to me, and right now all I can afford. Better an older model than no model at all (says a 61 year old)

And on another note, is there somewhere other than eBay to buy 'older' Mac hardware? Some of the prices are breath-taking. I still need a monitor and a mouse (nothing available here local)
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/20/10 05:05 AM

You should be able to find the correct video adapter (plug) for your existing monitor. Much cheaper than a "new" monitor. Still, knowing the installed OS will give us more of a clue and chance to offer help. Also, is it a tower or "flat" desktop model?
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: My first dumb question - 01/20/10 06:54 AM

Platinum?
Grey?
Does it stand tall or is a flat bugger?
Lot's of places to buy used equipment.
Start Here

There were several versions of the G3 so I am trying to find out what kind of adapter you will need.

Or you can take a pic and post it in here if you know how.

Hold off on buying a monitor and mouse until we find out what model G3 you have.

Does it look like this..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_G3_(Blue_&_White)



Or this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_G3


If it really is the Platinum model.. you are going upstream into a real battle to use a machine that old. smile




Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/20/10 06:58 AM

everymac.com is another good resource. Apparently, it's pre-USB, so I'm assuming the mouse would have to be an Apple ADB mouse.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: My first dumb question - 01/20/10 07:01 AM

Yep... and the video port prolly looks like this..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB-15


Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: My first dumb question - 01/20/10 07:04 AM

Maybe this would be the adapter...

http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/collection/articlepics/powermacg3/snap18.jpg
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 03:33 AM

From everything I've seen, it is a 'platinum' G3.

Frow what I've learned about computers, actually a good place to start is with something simple, and I've always found old machines to be the simplest. IF the thing I have works, the older the more simple it SHOULD BE to learn.

I did find an adapter. It's being shipped (should have been here yesterday).

I've also been able to download a couple of "Mac for Dummy" type books. They should make the transition from PC to Mac a little easier.

'Low End Mac' has been recommended by another member of another forum, so when I get more than one lead, it's probably good.

Thanks so far for all the help, but I'm sure I'm still gonna need much more. Just excuse me if my questions seem a bit simplistic (I'm a nOOb, don't ya know...)
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 05:47 AM

Hopefully, it has some version of OS X installed. If it is a pre-X system, you'll not be getting a very good experience to learn in, since that would be a 10 year old+ OS and really not indicative of the current Mac usability. Feel free to ask questions. We're here to help in any way that we can. The only stupid question is the one not asked.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 07:19 AM

I'm doubting that it has OS X installed. If you bought books about switching to the Mac they will be for OS X.
If it has OS 9 or earlier then you have a bit of a problem. The books aren't going to help and you will be using an OS that hasn't had any development in 10 years. This means that the browser won't support lots of common internet functions of today. Now... some people have put OS X on G3s... it runs... slowly though.
Posted by: KateSorensen

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 11:16 AM

Originally Posted By: NucleusG4

If it has OS 9 or earlier then you have a bit of a problem.


For someone interested in learning Mac, System OS 9 would be the last place to start! I hate it when someone needs help and they're using 9. X is so much simpler. smile But if the Mac he has won't support X then there is no choice.


.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 02:14 PM

The first time I booted, it came up with an "error 11", and since I had no mouse to move around, I rebooted.

This time, it comes up with a dialog box, and nothing in it.

BTW, the box is loaded with Mac OS 9.2
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 02:16 PM

Ancient and outdated OS. It won't give you a very good idea of how Macs are these days. It will give you a good idea of how they were 12 years ago. It will be like using a PII with Win95.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 02:17 PM

Now it says"Sorry, an system error occurred. unimplemented trap To temporarily turn of extensions, restart and hold down the shift key."
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 02:20 PM

Ah, the good ol' Extensions conflict. We don't have those these days. Like I said, very old stuff. wink
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 02:21 PM

I rebooted and it says now"

"The Finder could not start up because the following system library could not be found:

ThreadsLib

To start up, use the CD or floppy disks that came with your computer. Tos start up from a CD, hold the 'C' key while starting up, or consult the User's Guide that came with your computer"
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 02:25 PM

The only CD I have is one I bought off eBay, entitled "Apple Macintosh CD"-power Macintosh G3.

Chances are it'll wipe out OS 9.2, right??
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 02:26 PM

Sounds like a lot of system damage. Do you have the OS 9 install disks?

Edit: It may also be that the HD is bad, but you won't know that unless you can erase and then reinstall the OS.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 02:57 PM

Nope, all I have is the one CD I mentioned a couple of messages ago.

now I'm getting an erros that says "Sorry, a system error occurred. 'Finder' error type 10"
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 03:01 PM

Erase and reinstall seems about all you can do to get it up and running, unless the HD is hosed. How long did it sit without being used? Can you even find a SCSI drive anymore?
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 03:14 PM

i have no idea how long it sat without being used, or even IF it was running in the near past.

The lady who gave it to me said it was her husband's, but I saw no sign of a husband around. And she only had the box, monitor, keyboard and one power cable. So I'm not even sure if it will work.

I have plenty of IDE drives around (I'm an old time PC'er), but don't know if those will work.

I hate to wipe the HD out (if I even could) and lose OS 9.2 if it's nothing seriously wrong.

I've tried the 'hold shift on boot up' and the hold c on bootup', but nothing happens.

Tried attaching a USB card with 4 ports and a mouse, but nothing happens there also.

BTW, instead of tying up this forum with my mess (which everyone had already gone through), I'm perfectly willing to shift over to Yahoo messenger or MSN messenger it that'd be preferred.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 03:24 PM

WOW!!!

I removed the USB card, and now it goes through the boot-up process and it comes up to a multi-colored screen with a tiny watch sitting there. Then nothing at all. Tried to open the CD door, but seems locked up.

But it's better that what it WAS doing....
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 03:26 PM

Is there a CD in the drive? If so, there should be a small hole on the right side of the opening. Insert a straightened paper clip and push gently - it should open.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 03:36 PM

Well, it hung up again, so I hadda reboot. Opened it after I rebooted.

Now, I have a desktop screen, with a menu bar across the top with File Edit View Window Special Help the time and Finder and 4 icons, 'G3 Mini Tower HD', 'Internet', 'Outlook Express 5', and 'Yahoo Messenger'. At the bottom there is a Trash can.

It's looking better and better.

However, with no mouse, I have no way to move to any of the icons or the menu bar. How do I maneuver without a mouse. The PCs I've worked with will let me move around using a combination of either Control+key, or the 4 arrow keys.

Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 03:39 PM

Try the Tab key. G3 Mini Tower HD is the main boot drive. Internet is probably an alias (shortcut) as well as the others. The Trash can is in its proper place.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 03:44 PM

O.K., Tab key moves me around the screen, but I still can't access anything. Hmmmm, sure a PC mouse won't work??
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 05:38 PM

Man!! I can't do anything without a mouse.

BTW, if anyone has one they won't mind getting rid of, I sure could use a donation.

Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 06:32 PM

Well, I finally got the CD to work. The CD I have is Power Macintosh G3 Install. It has Installing Mac OS 8, PowerMac G3 ReadMe, Mac OS Install, etc. How do I access what seems to be document files without a mouse??

Thanks
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 06:46 PM

Well, you don't want to install OS 8 at this point. If you tab and it highlights an icon, hit "return." You need an Apple ADB (Apple Data Bus) mouse. A PC mouse won't work on that Mac. Thankfully, they do on current Macs. Search "ADB Mouse" on eBay.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 07:10 PM

Yeah!! I was able to figure out how to open and close items (apple key +O and apple key +W)

I'm loving it!! I got a tremendous amount of music here, some good documents, and much more to explore. But for now, I'm going to bed.

Thanks for all your help, and I'll probably see ya'll tomorrow

God bless
Posted by: scottyb

Re: My first dumb question - 01/21/10 07:24 PM

I found a good source of parts (mice, etc.) here:

http://gbennett.whsites.net/zencart/
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 04:12 AM

If I can ask anothre dumb question: How do I change date and time with the keyboard (I have amouse ordered off eBay).

I KNOW there must be keystrokes I can use to access EVERY part of the machine.

Thanks
Posted by: Jim_

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 07:32 AM

You'll have to work your way into the Control Panels folder that is in the System Folder.
Posted by: EzyriderTX

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 08:38 AM

What a great thread! I recently resurrected a Beige G3, cannibalized ram, video card usb card, firewire card from another slower G3 into it. I have it in my garage as an internet radio unit. iTunes from OS 9 still works great and all the internet radio stations work. I had a good pair of Altec Lansing speakers with sub woofer I added and it sounds great!

I got Classzilla to do the occassional Google search. Flash doesn't work on it but who cares. It is nice to have a modern browser in OS 9.

The video card I slapped in it is an ATI Xclaim VR. I wonder how I get the TV portion working? I've Googled it but without much luck. Man if I could pick up TV on it that would be awesome!
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 08:53 AM

OK. Wow. You just reminded me what great machines Macs are.. and to not discount the older machines. I guess I just haven't had any experience in "resurrecting" an old machine to do some functions that are cool to have in a garage like Biggerfoots, or as music server, etc.
It is good to know that there is a modern day browser for it too.
Cool.
I might be tempted to check Craigslist now.... smile

I did see some vidcards for G3 in the 30-70 dollar range...
Posted by: Jim_

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 08:58 AM

Here's a link to ATI FAQ's.

http://ati.amd.com/products/faqs/xclaimvr128faq.html#4

I think you would need an Xclaim TV external tuner to get TV, probably it had tuner software too. I don't know if other external tuners work with it or not.

A search through ebay completed listings shows this one never sold, maybe the seller still has it.
Posted by: Acumowchek

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 09:08 AM

I still have my beige G3 Frankenmac with an ATI Xclaim VR.

It came with an external unit to hook up the cable and from there to the video card.
I was also able to connect the unit to the TV to use as an external "monitor".
Of course everything looked like crap, but at the time it was cool.

Unfortunately, I threw that away long ago, along with my SyQuest drives, Zip drives., and floppies. cry

Edit: (Reboot beat me)
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 09:18 AM

Originally Posted By: Acumowchek
(Reboot beat me)

Is he getting violent?
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 09:37 AM

Great thread! Reminds me that I have a PowerBook 1400 set aside that I could/should resurrect.
Posted by: Jim_

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 09:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Acumowchek
Edit: (Reboot beat me)
The one fingered typing wonder beat you? You are slow. grin
Posted by: EzyriderTX

Re: My first dumb question - 01/22/10 12:37 PM

Thanks for the links Reboot!

I will look through some old boxes in my garage and see if maybe the TV Tuner is in one of them. I got the G3 I took the Xclaim card out of from a friend and he gave me a box full of extras including several SCSI drives, etc. I'll cross my fingers and hope he included the Tuner.

Sorry for hijacking your thread papbill. I hope when your mouse comes in everything will continue to work out. OS 9 is primitive by todays standards but messing around with it again reminded me how much better it was than Win95.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 07:19 AM

Here's more on the USB card fiasco:

On the advise of a friend (who is also a tech), I tried the USB card again. His asked me 'did you press the CUDA button [whatever that is] after installing the card? Others are saying you need to do that for OS9 to scan for and find the new card.'

I went through finding the CUDA button, but the CUDA button was NOT where it was supposed to be in a G3. It was where it was supposed to be in a G5. I went ahead and replaced the USB card, held the CUDA button for 10 seconds like it recommends, and all I get is the following error:
Code:
Sorry, an system error occurred. 
illegal instruction
To temporarily turn of extensions, restart and hold down the shift key.


I took out the card, reset the CUDA button, and now all I get is this:
Code:
Sorry, a system error occurred.
"Application Switcher"
error type 41


Regardless of how many times I reset the computer, I get the same error. Now it won't do anything except give me the error.


I believe I have a "Frank-intosh"! I checked the motherboard for some clues, and this is what I have found out.:

The printing on the motherboard says
Code:
APPLE COMPUTER, INC.
820-0864-B
c 1997


I do remember the woman who gave me the machine told me that the guy who owned it "maxed it out", so possibly there is a replaced motherboard in it?

On the back of the machine, at the serial number label, it says
Code:
4/21/1998  B-3   6:27 PM


I dunno. Seems like every time I get a used something-or-another it's "Frankenstein-ized" and acts all screwy.

As usual, I sure could use some help on this. Now it won't come up at all. Just that error.

Thanks
Posted by: Jim_

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 09:00 AM

Start up holding the Shift key down to turn off Extensions.

Go to the Control Panels, Extensions Manager, and choose Apple Only Extensions.

Reboot. Cross fingers.

The number for the logic board is okay, it's a Rev-B board is all. Is there a serial number or just the tag with the date on the back of the machine?
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 09:05 AM

"Maxed out" usually means the RAM is at its maximum capacity.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 10:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Reboot
Start up holding the Shift key down to turn off Extensions.

Go to the Control Panels, Extensions Manager, and choose Apple Only Extensions.

Did that, but it won't let me do anything with anything in control panel

Quote:
Reboot. Cross fingers.

The number for the logic board is okay, it's a Rev-B board is all. Is there a serial number or just the tag with the date on the back of the machine?


Rebooted, and nothing happened. The serial number on the back of the machine says it's a G3 Mini.

Thanks
Posted by: Jim_

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 12:07 PM

Originally Posted By: papabill

Did that, but it won't let me do anything with anything in control panel
With Extensions off the cascading feature is disabled, go directly to the Control Panels folder either by dropping down in the Apple menu and clicking on Control Panels, or going to the folder directly in the System Folder.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 12:39 PM

Nope, still nothing. I've got 10.2 ordered, and I'm gonna wait till it arrives and load it onto this and the iMac so I'll have one machine here and another at school (I volunteer teach three afternoons a week).

I've also got a Mac USB card ordered. Maybe the USB that's caused all this trouble will at least work in an older PC.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 12:48 PM

I'm wondering if a PRAM reset will solve the problem. I've forgotten how to do that, though.

Ahhh, Here it is .
Posted by: Jim_

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 12:59 PM

You double clicked on the Extensions Manager icon that was in the Control Panels folder and it didn't open?
Posted by: Jim_

Re: My first dumb question - 02/02/10 01:03 PM

Originally Posted By: papabill
Nope, still nothing. I've got 10.2 ordered, and I'm gonna wait till it arrives and load it onto this and the iMac so I'll have one machine here and another at school
You do realize you'll lose the ability to run the programs like MS Office on the machine that has 8.6 unless you boot back into 8.6? If you wipe the drives, which you may have to do to have room to install X, you'll lose them.

One thing I asked but I don't remember you answering or it got lost in a post, how much RAM is in each machine?
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 02/04/10 04:00 AM

Well, nothing I try will let me boot this machine. I even tried rebooting with an OS 8.6 cd that I bought, but I get this little disk in the center of the screen with a flashing ? in the middle. I thought that you could boot with a CD if you held down the 'C' key while booting.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: My first dumb question - 02/04/10 04:02 AM

Yes, it should. Are you sure the C on the kb is working?
The question mark is telling you that it can't see the start up folder.. or that it's not blessed.
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 02/04/10 04:06 AM

Yeah, the keyboard has been working up to this point. No reason to think it's quit. Possible bad CD??
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 02/04/10 04:08 AM

And to think all this started over a stupid USB card.
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 02/04/10 08:19 AM

Did you change that PRAM battery yet?
Posted by: papabill

Re: My first dumb question - 02/04/10 11:02 AM

Nope, not yet. Soon on my list...
Posted by: MacBozo

Re: My first dumb question - 02/04/10 12:42 PM

A dead or very low PRAM battery can cause all kinds of odd, seemingly unrelated behavior.
Posted by: NucleusG4

Re: My first dumb question - 02/04/10 05:21 PM

Originally Posted By: MacBozo
A dead or very low PRAM battery can cause all kinds of odd, seemingly unrelated behavior.


True dat!