… not only for all the Arab world, specially for Tunisia, Egypt, Bahrain, Yemen. Jordan, Libya, Algeria, and even Morocco, but for non-Arab, non-Sunni Iran, too.


Once again Mr. Avnery shows us part his broad vision for peace and justice in the Middle East the likes of which —as far as i have read—, only he has been able to mould (mold) and then put into words.

It would certainly be beautiful if, in Israel, the Israeli people were lifted by a similar spirit of democracy and justice as the one that seemingly travels these days through the Arab world in search of renewal and in defiance of the old regimes and the old interrelations.

I can dream, right? After all, the Arabs are doing it and it's (hopefully) changing the world for the better.



So here it is, another one of my promoted articles…


February 19, 2011
The Genie is out of the Bottle
By Uri Avnery
“
[…]

WHEN OUR Zionist fathers decided to set up a safe haven in Palestine, they had the choice between two options:

They could appear in West Asia as European conquerors, who see themselves as a bridgehead of the “white” man and as masters of the “natives”, like the Spanish conquistadores and the Anglo-Saxon colonialists in America. That is what the crusaders did in their time.

The second way was to see themselves as an Asian people returning to their homeland, the heirs to the political and cultural traditions of the Semitic world, ready to take part, with the other peoples of the region, in the war of liberation from European exploitation.

[…
…
…]
”

You're more lost than the son of Lindbergh.

Yeah, I mean Israel's slightly different because the people are generally inseparable from the 'government' and because it's not a state... that's right, mainly because you can't have a state by UDI and because no state has moving borders.

km

Don't forget to pay your dues this month.

Wasn't he abducted and killed?

You have no vision !

You're as blind as blind is that alley you walk through !

But…
the Israelis can vote, no?


It should be easier for them to influence their government to put in effect more democratic policies with respect to, for example, the settlements.

Obviously some people cannot recognize that the actual Israel/Palestine interrelationship doesn't lead to anything good.

I search and hope that a newer kind of Jewish Israeli people exist.

Well German is correct -

Israel is not a conquering power, are not invading armies and certainly not a colonial nation.

Anyway.
It was the UN that gave Israel the right to be a State - Israelis agreed - Palestinians did not <- hence the problems.

What German? I don't get it: ally // alley ???

What is it? An occupying nation? A category in itself?

You keep repeating this "analysis" every time the Palestinian/Israeli conflict comes up. Just so you know, there are some people here that simply don't agree with that simplification.

You have had that interminable "analytic" discussion 17 to 1001 times in this forum already…

Apart from that, you say the UN that "gave Israel the right". The UN may have upheld the Israeli people's right to a state.

Meanwhile, i'll fall in line with macbeemer's sig;
"The Bill of Rights doesn't grant us our rights, it merely enumerates them."

"It was the UN that gave Israel the right to be a State"

That and global guilt over one country's sins, born out of the entire world turning a blind eye for as long as it could get away with looking away. So it goes. The nature of the human beast never ceases to amaze. The desire to erase a nation's sins by assuming some kind of new blown superiority amazes, too. And I'm not talking Israel ~ Which wouldn't exist without the aforesaid stuff. History ~ It's a bitch, huh?

UN Resolution 181? That was the 'Jewish State' not Israel.

km

A JEWISH STATE IN THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

Forget it, German. The only state he recognizes is the state of bigotry. Reasoning with this putz is like pissing into the wind.

Quite the wave of unrest rippling through the Gulf region lately. Looks like countries with small minority sects ruling over larger sects are potentially in deep trouble. These conditions could significantly change things for the world outside their borders - the US 5th fleet anchored in Bahrain, for example.

That's right... like the United States of America is in the land of America and England is in the land of Great Britain in all cases defined by designated borders. Israel goes back to a self-declaration of independence of 14 May 1948 not Resolution 181 - which is why it's not a state.

km

What makes a State a State? It certainly doesn't depend exclusively on UN approval, since States existed before that body was even conceived. Regardless, if a state is defined as having designated, internationally recognized borders, Israel has those -- here's even a pdf map from the UN cartographic section showing those borders ...

Historically, States' borders move all the time -- via wars, mutual agreement, sale/bartering, etc. Certainly a perpetually static border cannot be considered a requirement for legitimacy ...

If your argument is that if any part of a State's borders are in contention then it isn't a State at all, several billion people around the world are going to be quite surprised to find themselves (for better or worse) without a country ...

I know, I know but one last think before I am going to enjoy this sunny Sunday.

Mr.K, why the Palestinians don't want to recognize Israel as a Jewish State only the STATE OF ISRAEL

Yes states existed before the UN but the Charter now provides a framework for international relations in that respect. Nothing in the Charter allows for the creation of a state by UDI but it does allow for admission of a state by Resolution of the General Assembly. Resolution 181 describes the borders of the Jewish State and maps which contradict it are of no legal effect.

km

I think the problem lies perhaps with Keymaker's state of mind.

You agree with this Charter but not the European Court of Human Rights. Nice to be able to pick whatever documents suit your needs and call them valid-all else, be damned.

Thanks for the Sunday snicker.

Well rulings of the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg are not recognised as binding in this country because the UK is sovereign. We have however along with the community of all nations agreed to observe the Charter of the United Nations which provides the only method in modern times by which a state can come into existence - which is why Israel is not a state.

km

Big Six,

The problem with boarders goes way way back to the Ottoman Era, After that was WWII.

A complete mess.

The UN came in after and some how decided to draw new boarders - and its not just a problem with the middle east either.

Solution.
Disband the UN, their worthless anyway.
Have counties negotiate their own borders? ?

If UN membership is your criterion for legally defining a State, I would refer you in this particular case to:

273 (III). Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations

An undertaking effected by precisely the method you describe above ...

Germán (?) …

About
“The State of Israel, the Nation-State of the Jewish people”

Taken from our previous discussion at:
Re: Airport Security
http://forums.applecentral.com/ubbthreads.php/posts/543465

And a few posts further down, about The State of Bla-Bla-Bla article, on the same thread:
Re: Airport Security
http://forums.applecentral.com/ubbthreads.php/posts/543554

Ury Avnery is your only Encyclopedia to consult about all your anti-israel posts?

You're quite right that the name 'Israel' is officially recognised by that Resolution but only with the borders described in Resolution 181 as the 5th link makes clear.

km

Encyclopedia?

Here's another Encyclopedia you can consult:

World-renowned public intellectual, MIT Professor Emeritus of Linguistics, U.S.A. disident, Noam Chomsky.


February 17, 2011
"Democracy Uprising" in the USA?

Video — Part 1
“Democracy Uprising” in the U.S.A.?: Noam Chomsky on
•Wisconsin’s Resistance to Assault on Public Sector, the
•Obama-Sanctioned Crackdown on Activists, and the
•Distorted Legacy of Ronald Reagan.

Video — Part 2
“Democracy Uprising” in the U.S.A.?: Noam Chomsky on
•Civil Rights,
•Obama,
•Latin America, and the
•History of the U.S. in the Middle East.

Hurry-up !

Or selling toilet paper in a diarrhea ward.That is KM for you

KM What do you have against the Jewish State of Israel?

Can't find any comment about 200 people killed in Libya, can you help me?

Moving borders and its perpetration of other serious illegalities in defence thereof.

km

My idea of a wet dream is: Israel invades GB with totally gay forces — all married to each other (same sex, of course) — and they take km hostage after trampling his little "garden" and force him to march at the head of a Gay Pride parade!

km might feel glad
finally out, in the light -
a parade queen, too!

You two guys are both so full of cr@p I'm beginning to think you must be... together.

km

Um... I believe you told me, in another thread, to "dream on". So I'm just telling you my dreams, Honey. And Max & Me, well we are together. In our sympathy for you, you poor, denial-drive sot.

right back atcha, Snookums.

Actually, it specifically recognizes the State of Israel:


"Having received the report of the Security Council on the application of Israel for membership in the United Nations,1/

Noting that, in the judgment of the Security Council, Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter,

Noting that the Security Council has recommended to the General Assembly that it admit Israel to membership in the United Nations,

Noting furthermore the declaration by the State of Israel that it "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations",2/

Recalling its resolutions of 29 November 1947 3/ and 11 December 1948 4/ and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel 5/ before the ad hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of the said resolutions,

The General Assembly,

Acting in discharge of its functions under Article 4 of the Charter and rule 125 of its rules of procedure,

1. Decides that Israel is a peace-loving State which accepts the obligations contained in the Charter and is able and willing to carry out those obligations;

2. Decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations."


The language could not be more clear.

Wether or not Israel has actually lived-up to the assessments made in that resolution, or has indeed acted in accordance with its obligations under the UN charter and resolutions is another matter entirely -- but I don't think the existence of Israel as a State is really debatable if you're using UN membership as the criterion for Statehood ...

Isreal's a state
just as key's a barrister
no more need be said

I don't think anyone cares what the Jewish State is called but of course the question arises as to its boundaries. In my opinion states depending on a UN resolution for recognition exist only within the boundaries accepted by the UN - otherwise it's not a state at all.

km

your opinion, then!
a lone singularity~
rather humbling, eh?

Not really. How about the whole world agrees with it apart from you and (cough) you know who which can't make up its mind?

km

the garble factor
is most strong in your response;
waistcoat too tight, mmm?

Waistcoat? What a diversion...

km

it need not be, but
it's your prerogative, right?
hey, you wear it, pal!

No I don't actually... now about those illegal borders - do you support them or not?

km

so you say, law-boy
but then again, you say much
that amounts to zip

You obviously didn't open my 'whole world' link.

Give it up Max - you used to post a lot of quite coherent common sense but latterly you've allowed your contribution here to descend to a load of personal gibberish.

km

1.
I merely reflect;
you are what I react to, key~
a peculiar void

2.
you seem so riled, vexed
it can be rectified, yes?
simply fix within

LOL!

km

The logic of that statement dictates, then, that Israel exists as a State at the very least within the borders of the original UN resolution ...

Again, that assumes that the UN confers Statehood in the first place ...

Yeah I don't think there's much between us, six, as is often the case... I'm saying that Israel, though its existence might be immoral, does exist as a legal entity within the boundaries recognised by the UN in Resolution 181.

km

Heh -- often it does turn out that way, although it equally often doesn't appear that way at the outset. Thanks for the clarification =)

ah! peace reigns again
new arguments will appear~
watch the pixels fly.

You keep forgetting that the Palestinians / Arab League has rejected all UN resolutions - Israel has accepted the UN resolutions <-- hence the problems.

Keep in mind that most of these (settlements) are inside Israel UN boarders - Palestine disputes them. Much are which renovation projects of 200 year old Jerusalem apartment buildings, to modernize them into the 21st century.

Jerusalem is a very hot subject and by the UN it is a shared city by both sides. Palestine believes only Muslims can rule over Holy Land and they never agree to the UN Resolutions to begin with.

Jerusalem isn't inside the borders of the original resolution -- it was intended to be a special UN-controlled city, part of neither the proposed Jewish nor Palestinian states. The settlements within Israel's original borders aren't the issue -- the ones it continues to develop in the lands it occupies outside of those borders are the problem ...

Well, yeah, if accepting means rejecting I s'pose you're right... rejecting the borders in 181.

km

Big Six

Jerusalem - is a huge part of the dispute. No matter what the UN or the West says.

It also holds that region Muslim Religious Walling Wall

Ya being a little bit cryptic ? ?

I gather from what your saying - that after WWII and before the UN resolutions.

The Arab States should have then negotiated, which they sorta did on a one way solution - which was giving the UN the Big Stiff Arm. They choose instead , death to Israel. No matter what.

Muslim Religious Wailling Wall ? ! … ( of that region ) …

i suppose you could be meaning Wailling if any of it all made sense…


( ·&A3#4;flippity&#82%@¸‰flep&c&#35- [… ??? …] )


"Muslim Religious Wailling Wall" !

And you keep acting as if you always know what you're talking about !



Repent infidel !!!

Yep - LOL

We all make some spelling mistakes - only a fool would not know what we are talking about, let alone even point it out.

LOL, yeah, a fool.

And you keep acting as if you always know what you're talking about !

I just look it up before my reply - Did you ? ?

Google is your friend - maybe you should also check it out .

What?

Are you going to tell me that you have confirmed that what you call the "Muslim Religious Wailling Wall", the Wailling Wall, is a Muslim religious site?

Awaiting the doubtless precious answer to that one too...

Is this you rabbiting ?

Google is [my] friend ? !!! ???
Well… what did it turn up for you on your search?

You're more of a FOOL than what you implied before !
FOOL !

Yeak, you did make mistake ! Didn't you ?

Enjoy your foolishness…

Yeah, carp's spelling is, shall we say, unique. But it's one of those characteristics that has endeared him to just about everyone here. And he, like many of us (yourself included, I'd wager) tends to occasionally use Google as a source of instant "authority". Need a quick factoid to argue or support a point? Just Google a quick scratch in the surface and so what if the topline dissolves deeper into the point. And yeah, he's stubborn to a fault. Not exactly a rare trait hereabouts, either.

But condescending? Judgmental? Sarcastic? A legend in his own mind? Nope. That ain't carp. Some would rightly assign such labels to me, no doubt (and I wear 'em proudly, thankyouverymuch). But also being a giving kind of guy, I readily share them with you. If you're gonna start calling the good guys in here "fool" because you figure you know more than them or because they don't spel to gud, you've got some glass house cleaning to do first.

I can get you a case of Windex wholesale. You're welcome.

Israel received it's independence in 1948 and ever since that day they are fighting for their freedom each and every day.Look at the countries they are surrounded by and tell me KM they really have a fighting chance!

Well they didn't actually receive it so much as proclaim it. Proclamations cannot a state create so they're left with Resolution 181 as to its legitimacy and borders.

km

I see. But you can proclaim what's "natural" and "unnatural" and have it be so? Give me a break.

Correct - I thought you'd never get it.

km

key cannot agree
his mind's made up, happily~
facts confuse him, see

Ignore this user
I do so completely but
The words still bleed through



Seriously, y'all? I haven't read a single KM post since last year ~ Don't need to. Same ol' same ol' same ol' . . . And I swear I've enjoyed this place so much more, simply by eliminating his rabbitting circular jerk posts from my daily cruise. Why I make a point of this? And I guess I direct this one to Max ~



MacBabes can haiku
But make a long story short?
Would we clip bird wings?




LL

Then indeed proclaim thyself the latter, Oh Alien[ated] One.

No I think you'll find I'm of the majority on all points, Oh Minority View[point] One.

km

confusion rules you;
majority means nothing~
just more people wrong!

OMG you still haven't opened my 'whole world' link... surely when Canada and the United States disagree it can't be Canada in the wrong? Think carefully...

km

complaining again?
so inefficient of you;
absorb wisdom now!

Complaining?

km

Carp assessment; well said Steve.

That's funny in a not-so-funny kind of way.

key again queries~
lost details, willful numbness~
chronic condition

Lost on you maybe - not on anyone else.

km

Double play for you: Out of your mind; out of your depth.

But thanks for playing...

Step up now
Thoughts aloft
Over your head
Redundancy yet again


How'm I doin' Max?

Actually we were talking about whether the Isreali settlements in Palestine were lawful or unlawful... great attempt to change the subject though...

km

Very nice, Steve. Here's one for our keyless wonder:

more emoticons!
arsenal's only weapon~
best surrender, lad

Emoticons don't make Israeli settlements lawful or unlawful, Max... how about admitting your own ignorant viewpoint on the issue?

km

I haven't changed the subject. I've been talking about you all along. Which at the end of the day is your fav subject, too.

Mary me, you hunka-hunka burnin' matzoh! :is there an emoticon for that?:

Steve, I don't know how many times I have to say this - the subject is not me... you need help...

km

Nah. I can handle you all by myself. Although I do have to drink plenty of water.

have you thought of consulting a psychologist?

km

"Ignorant," it says~
mirror looks at self, freaks out
hypocrisy, yo

Yeah I see what you mean - oh, and those settlements - acceptable or not in your opinion?

km

Already did. He said you're too far gone to work with.

And the settlements? Any view on that?

km

I guess we'll have to add Attention Deficit to your specs. But one more time (and write it down this time): I feel that the Israel has gone a bit too far as regards the settlements, and I'm not wild about how they've treated the Palestinians. Having said that, I temper my view with the very long history of repression and discrimination that the Jews (without whom there would not be an Israel in the first place) have had to endure. Not that two wrongs make a right, but it gives one an alternative lens.

Did you get that this time? I've only stated that position a half dozen times. There will be an oral quiz tomorrow. And you will have to answer in Haiku.

Hubba-hubba!

Yeah, I understand what you're saying... thanks.

km

Wow.
As Simply Red once asked, "Did the earth move for you Nancy?"

if the earth did move
would the key realize it?
the parade's too fun!

Well i understand what he was saying but I don't understand a word of what you've been trying to say for the last several months...

km

you plead ignorance;
so truth finally appears~
of this I am glad

That's right - in fact when it comes to your position on the settlements we're all ignorant.

km

you might truly see
if only you could awake~
your slumber deepens

True, true... and your position on the settlements is... ?

km

I'm worried about him, Max. All the ED remedy ads say if you experience an erection lasting more than four hours, seek immediate medical attention. Do you think his stuck smilie might be something similar?

I thought it was just gas.

Stuck smilie? We're waiting for his comments on the settlements not the smilies...

km

Correction: [i]You[i] are waiting for his comments. But speaking of stuck smilies, was it Viagra®, Cialis® , or just bad toothpaste?

the royal we schtick:
you think it makes you bigger~
so small now are you

No we all are... the thread is about an 'historic crossroad for Israel...' smilies don't come into it.

km

so do you proclaim;
believe what you will, old boy
your deeds are what count

Spelling cops are nothing but childish stupid bullies - Something I thought you were above, I guess not.

Please check the history.
There is a Wailing wall in Jerusaelem - do not confuse this with Mecca which each Muslim is expected to make that journey once in their life time.

Funny, eh? He claims to not understand what you're saying. Yet he continues to reply. So either he does understand you... or we can't understand him.

Oy, my hair hurts.

Steve, this is so true
guess he cannot help himself
last word must be his.

steveg, here's the story on this :



I accused him of not knowing what he's talking about.[ Tell me, steveg, you must know…
Do Muslims have any "wailling walls" in that or any other region ? ]

For carp what i'm criticizing is his spelling (in another later post he calls me " spelling cop "): !:
So, as you can see, the fool is here because he called it out.

He, carp, in his post quoted above says that anyone that doesn't understand what's being discussed would be a fool. So he says that either i am a fool or he is a fool.

I don't have to excuse him if he unwillingly found wrong information and introduced it in the conversation that was going on in the forum. Specially when he doesn't acknowledge his error.No answer to this, NADA.
So i hereby uphold the right to call him a FOOL ! for not knowing what he's talking about.

No direct answer, but…

What is he doing now ?

The following is worse than rabbiting around. ( He should have already admitted his error, but no, he doesn't confront his own actions… )

Carp now chooses to pretend that i am confusing the "Wailling Wall" with "Mecca" where, —he adds for my information,— "each Muslim is expected to make that journey once in their life time."

What is this ?
Is this guy an adult ?
How old are you carp ?



carp should stop being a fool and start an effort to make his written English better, instead of promoting the lovable "carpist" image, with his "carpisms". The foolish fun we make about his errors are used by him to excuse and justify his lack of respect to the forum and to the English language. His written communication makes us all work more to get some sense out of the knee-yerk, what-ever-passes-his-mind-first, unjustified commentaries that he plagues all threads with.

We do have some opinions which we share, but, this is a guy that told me the other day to shut up just because i didn't agree with him and told him why. I therefore let him deal with his opinions on his own. In any case i don't agree with him in practically anything, steveg…, less of all, on all these attitudes above.

Sorry

Just go and read the history - It is not me that does not know - it is you BIG TIME.

Spend a few weeks in study - I did - why not you.

I've never seen anyone whine so... colorfully. Got it all out of your system now? I'll say it again. You're out of line. We don't have or need spelling or grammar police here. A thought is a thought is a thought. No matter how clumsily articulated. You want to disagree with the thought? Fine. That's called debate. You want to make the literary execution of that thought your focus? That's called petty.

And this...Sounds like an odd stew of penis envy, bitterness, and menopause!

Take. Deep. Breaths. In... Out... Ahhhhhhhh...

That must be it !

Yo, kat? I've never had an opinion of you one way or the other. I do now.


Oh, what the hell. The only opinion I had of you up to now? O.V.E.R. Kill with the links. Seriously, you can take an interesting issue it and just TMI it's ass into the absolute ground. carp's carpisms are a constant source of bemusement and amusement. Your posts? I swear you could suck the excitement out of an alien invasion.

My classic two cents.

Sorry that i'm such a bore for you !

In what way? Somehow I don't think anyone's about to appoint you the arbiter of what's inline.

km

What? I've never even been to Palestine.

km

ducking behind semantics
a lawyer's last resort
when the debate seems lost
behind walls of the fort
all in his bag of tricks

Yeah but all candidates favour the land annexations.


Well there's Daniel Barenboim and a few members of Neturei Karta. You may have noticed though that whenever anyone tries to engage in a constructive debate on these issues they tend to get shouted down by morons who immediately want to change the subject.

km

What debate?

km

Depends on the context and viewpoint.

Seems to me the context is peace in the Middle East with varying viewpoints on that and quite a few irrelevant viewpoints about... for some reason... my deeds? Go figure.

km

Of course not. You would be the self-appointed arbiter of all things. Or is that proclimator?

Roity-O, Your Minus. Changing the subject and twisting the discussion into endless semantic mazes and dodges in search of The Last Word are sooooooooo very different.





You kill me.

One doesn't have to go very far back in the thread to find you trying to bring gays into it, as is your tendency - Steve this one is about Israel - get it?

km

KM I reiterate again what do you have against Israel? I hear the bias and negativity in your posts regarding this all the time.

I would repeat what I said before... moving borders and the perpetration of other serious crimes in defence thereof.

km

Actually, on this one, meaning the case of Israel and its actions, I pretty much agree with KM. And there's no hate involved. I'm just stating a fact when I say Israel is a US protectorate in the Middle East in reality and very few of their actions against palestinian people, let alone the colonies can really be justified or deemed acceptable.

As to what comes to yanking KM's chain, I like haggling with the lawyer types. They make good sparring partners.

All part of the same pattern, my man. When watching you flog the rabbit, the subject is just so much background noise. In the end, it all comes down to your inflexibility, your refusal to recognize an opposing POV, your constant ducking and dodging, and your obsession with having the last word. Oh, and lest we forget, your track record of wearing down everyone else — boring or frustrating them to the point where they just have to walk away and leave you to your verbal masturbation — which you then advertise as your winning the debate.

T'would be funny, were it not to sad.

Yes, i have noticed that.


Whether we like it
or not.

Yes, i have noticed that.


Whether we like it
or not, posts avoiding thought
of their threads are faults

I s'pose if you repeat your bullcr@p often enough the less perceptive might begin to think it contains some grain of truth - but the more perceptive will realise that you're only really describing yourself.

km

delinquent words, lad~
can you not rein yourself in?
sad repetition.

I don't know what you mean, quite frankly.

km

Hey now! Don't bogard, pass it over!

Sure.


Feb 22, 2011
'Brother' Gaddafi, you're going down
By Pepe Escobar


Feb 22, 2011
The mad dog of the Middle East
By Sami Moubayed