Boy, the race hustlers are out of the woodwork on this one. Perhaps they should realize:

1.) It's a cartoon.

2.) We have freedom of speech in this country, just as people have freedom of protest.

3.) See #1.

Sheesh! It ain't all that!

1. it's a poorly crafted cartoon.

2. we have freedom of speech in this country, just as people have the freedom to express their displeasure with others and conservatives on a Mac political forum can whine about people whining about a cartoon.

3. see #2.

Sheesh, ain't it grand?

Let's set aside any perceived racial overtones for a second. Tell me what the very tragic and traumatic incident involving the chimpanzee has to do with the stim? Even without any racial innuendo, the cartoon couldn't have been in poorer taste. Freedom of speech is not an excuse for insensitivity and callousness.

But guess what. It was a racial slur, too.

1. How'd you feel if caricature of Bush were filled with bullets.

2. Yes you have Freedom, but it comes with something called RESPONSIBILITY !
You can't yell fine in a theater.. and you can't advocate or suggest killing a Govt. Official esp. the President.

3. We wouldn't need a stimulus if Bush, Phil Gramm , and many CEOs and business people hadn't gotten greedy and stupid. Some people go in that bag of crap too !

4. See #2.

Well, more than anything, it was a pretty poorly wrought cartoon.

It's not that coherent, and you don't 'get it' instantly, regardless of any obtuseness, perceived whatever, bla bla bla. It's especially disappointing considering the Post's market is a pretty dumb down market. Regardless of intelligence, sophistication, whatever, successful humor is pretty simple and succinct, easily graspable. The Post isn't the New Yorker, but even with something like the New Yorker, you can never go wrong with dumbing stuff down - I don't know what the cartoonist was after, something more sophisticated, obtuse, whatever - Whatever it was, it's the wrong thing for the Post's market - It's not nearly dumbed down enough, graphically explicit enough. You do explicit for the Post, not implicit (that's way too fukking sophisticated and too taxing for their readers ).

The Post got lucky - They got a gazillion hits - However, continual success is not an accident, it's deliberate. If this cartoonist can't step up his game, he's a loser and ought to be cut (and the editor ought to be let go for incompetence, for failing to recognize loser content).

It's a sad state of affairs when even an a$$wipe rag can't even make a proper turd.

Ed

Yes, people are free to protest, but they could relax just a little bit. Not that they have to listen to me of course.

Not directed at anyone

Well Bush was depicted as a monkey many many times and what about monkey boy Ballmer ?

From what I been watching on the news its seems to be 50 - 50 . Seems more whites are upset then the Blacks . Still a 100% do agree that the cartoon is in poor taste and they wonder why people even read the Washington Post to begin with .

Anyway
I don't see it as racist and I made the connection with the chimp story the day before. Now if that was Bush would anyone care ? nope , but since its Obama the racist comes out to protest

IMO

Blacks have historically been depicted as "sub-human", as apes and monkeys. It's derogatory and racist and is centuries old.

Remember the video of the man at the Palin rally proudly showing off his Curious George doll with Obama written on it? Ask Bryan why he chose Curious George as his avatar on election night after Obama's win. Big surprise that Bryan would think that there's news coverage that people are upset about the Post's cartoon. <bleh>

Bush as a monkey ... seems like it was Bryan or his socks posting that. And Ballmer, well, you saw his dance didn't you?

So in case I didn't make my point, Bryan's quite the shameless hypocrite with his "race hustlers" comment.

Well for one thing I don't look at color and as for historically , well maybe ? ? here it would be more Filipinos are depicted as monkeys , rather then Blacks .



Nope there have been many cartoons with bush in a monkey suit - go look it up if you want .

There are many things going on here now , how far do you want to stifle "free speech" ? or should we just let Sharpton decide it for us ? SUre if the artist placed a "N" word label on the chimp that would be totally out of line and Sharpton would be right - in this case its a matter of where your heads at , I did not see the racism , of-course someone who is racist like Sharpton would see the cartoon in a different light.

You know when I first saw it I was thinking about the old adage of having a host of monkey's typing on a typewriter and writing a major piece of legislation. I didn't connect it with Obama.

As for what I wold feel if it were a caricature of Bush, well that would be a different things as it would be referring to Bush and look like him. This wasn't a caracature of Obama. It was an Ape. And not an ape that looked like any person of African descent. It was just an ape.

Sure I know that Apes have been used to refer to Africans but normally they have human features. This was not, IMO.

Poor taste? Sure. Racist. Well some will say that and others not but Many of the ones saying Racist, are those who are looking for such things for their own reasons.

dave

Exactly right MrB

I guess you might want to look up this whole period in US history when blacks were bought and sold as property and the cultural beliefs that promoted it.

......

How about the other important issue presented in the cartoon. The dead ape is clearly suppose to be President Obama ... and he's shot dead, three bullet holes and a smoking gun.

Tell me how many US Newpapers ran editorial cartoons of President Bush, or an obvious metaphor for President Bush, shot dead and bleeding? Please don't show me disgusting left wing blog cartoons or photos of protest rallies, show me a political cartoon in a major US newspaper where the Editor decided it appropriate to depict President Bush shot dead and bleeding.

But when it's used to depict President Obama we're told to shut up.

How is the ape "clearly" suppose to be President Obama?


dave

Well, it certainly is consistent with some of the cartoonist's previous efforts.

No brainer. Public perception: Obama=Stim. Ape dead, now someone else has to handle the stim, Translation (and a man with no legs could make this "leap"): Ape=Obama.

And to save another post, I'll ask carp here: So you "got" the reference to the chimpanzee incident the day before the cartoon broke. Now, please expose the connective tissue btwn the chimp shooting and the Stim. If it's that direct, you should be able to articulate it in fewer than 20 words. Ready... set... GO!

Well maybe some didn't see it as others. Obviously you and Steve (Carp) didn't. That's great.

But the whole thing could have been avoided if he'd labeled the chimp.. Congress, Liberals, The Left, Dems, anything !! . . but leaving it open I think sent a 2nd message, and he INTENDED it that way. That's my beef... it was cold calculations.

Stop press!

I can't recall that W was ever portrayed full of bullet holes (at least, not in this country). It was usually intended to show him as the intellectual flyweight that he is.

He's demented! Rupert probably gives him a gold star for each one.

Now, that is what he should have done. Especially with the chimp being shot earlier. I have never been on a newspaper but have heard that one has to be careful where one puts images and such in a layout so as not to let a nearby piece influence others. There have been many political cartoons that because of lack of labeling, I haven't gotten the connections. This is partly due to that many writers assume one lives near D.C. and thinks that what happens there everyone in the country would get.

Also this relates to a comment I made earlier about folks will have to be more careful during Obama's reign in order not to be labled racist.

dave

The New York Post flowchart, particularly the relationship between editor and cartoonist



The New York Post demographic profile chart



Ed

Er ... it was the New York Post that ran the cartoon ...

=)

I am trying to find where I said "bullet holes " ? ? ?

I know all about the US history 50 YEARs ago , time to dry up and move on to a better future - keep digging up the past does no one any good .

You didn't. The current "cartoon" depicts a Chimpanzee full of holes.

Thats the connection the cartoonist was making to the rampaging chimp the day before , the one that the cop shot , from what I heard twice , hence the 2 holes

Only a racist or people who live in the past would make the connection to Obama

He connected the chimp to the stimulus package which fairly well connects it to Obama. Connect the dots.

But, again, what does the chimp incident have to do with the Stim? There is no correlation whatsoever.

Sorry I am not racist so I don't think that way

The way I looked at it - is there are many people who been on TV news don't think the stimulus package will work and its a waste of money - so kill the package , thats the connection

Wow! I hope you didn't hurt you back reaching that far. Especially given the caption: "They'll have to find someone else to write the next stimulus bill." That doesn't say anything about killing the bill. I'll say it slowly this time. Per...cep...tion: Obama... =.... Stimulus...

carp, you don't have to be racist for the cartoon to none-the-less have a racist subtext. Only the author and/or publisher have to be racist.

I'm gonna say this again, because I think it's a very important distinction that you're not making. Because you are not racist or don't see the the innuendo does not remove the poorly masked message. Glad you're not racist. Never thought you were. Wish I could say the same for the cartoonist or the publisher.

Obama didn't write the package , what hes got the time to type out 1,100 pages

He and the administration had a whole lot of input to it, though.

You keep missing the key point here, carp: The larger perception is that Obama wrote the bill. And even though he didn't actually write it, he was a key driver, having significant input. It's the visceral response that the cartoon elicits. And that's why it's racist — at least on the surface. And if you have to start rationalizing and pulling obtuse connections out of your butt, you're already to late.

You are correct;
In fact that was the first thing all them TV talking heads pointed out "Obama did not write it" was his ideas and tons of input from others

Like I said only a racist or people who want to live in the past will make that connection = Sharpton created the larger perception

Archive this post. Show it to your great grandchildren because what I'm about to say is truly a once in 10 lifetimes event:

I agree with Sharpton on this one!

Maybe KO will list me in his next Best or Worst Persons segment.

LOL

I don't agree with Sharpton at ALL . in fact he created a bigger mess . What we should be talking about is freedom of speech -vs- Sharpton perception of racism

I will agree with Sharpton on that Imus radio head incident , now that was blatant

I remember way back in elementary school, maybe 4th or 5th grade, there was one teacher who had class lessons on reading a newspaper. Every day we'd sit at our desk and the teacher would go through page by page and enlighten the students on how to read a paper - beyond the headline news, but discussion and understanding of what was on the business pages (how to read the stock listings and what they meant), sports pages (how to read and understand baseball scores and team standings) or "letter to the editor" and op-eds. Sometimes we'd discuss the humor in one or two particular comic strips, but the highlight each lesson was interpretation of the daily editorial cartoon ... because those messages were always somewhat tricky. As young students it was always a lively debate to make sense of that cartoon, how to relate the visual metaphors to a current news event, how to understand how those metaphors were being used to convey a new political or emotional message or idea.

I credit that teacher for inspiring me to begin reading newspapers at a very early age and to make it part of my everyday routine to this day.

If carp is unable to connect the visual metaphor of the one tragic event and understand the new meaning given to it by the content of the cartoon's written word ... well, that's too bad. I think a classroom of bright 5th graders could have a more insightful interpretation of the cartoon's message than what I've read here.

<tongue>

carp is just trying to look at things literally, which is rarely the intent of a political cartoon . . . they're made for figurative interpretation -- and the better ones don't need a lot of interpretation to get the artist's intention, which is partly why this one sux so badly.

[censored] on to the next generation and on and on - People like Sharpton has to stop their racism witch hunt , , otherwise the Mainland US will never grow out of being Bigots past onto generations to come .

I know Carp watches CNN. It was pretty unanimous with the panel on 360, specially Gergen, said the cartoon was borderline racist and depicted Obama.


Metaphor is subjective.

carp, perhaps you need more of this. it's something that allows people who aren't like other people to still be able to get the gist of how other people might be thinking and where they might be coming from, etc. it doesn't take a racist person to see racism.

Answer me this

1 - Does it do any good to continue to educate new generations - monkeys = Niggers = Obama ? ? thats what Sharpton did

I betcha todays kids had no idea until the Sharpton made a whole big stink out of it

Your photo that you removed

Looks like an ad for a pancake house in Alaska

fwiw, i first saw the cartoon posted online on another forum with the question, "is this racist to you?" i knew right away why the question was being asked before i knew that Sharpton was making a stink. i still haven't heard or seen Sharpton involved in this other than it's mentioned in this thread. the cartoon sucked and is in very poor taste with or without Sharpton.

This is MHO.

The meaning of any word or image depends on the context in which the image or word appears. Nothing on earth has an absolute meaning. And since I don't believe in heaven, I guess for me nothing has an absolute meaning. So I think carp is right If one repeats the idea that a particular image has a history of racism, such repetition will place the image in the racist context and so perpetuate the racism. But on the other hand, the alternative to knowing and understanding the history is to make believe that the past is history, so to speak, and has no bearing on the present. To me, that perspective is one of the fundamental problems with the way Americans think. Y'all know I'm so steeped in Shakespeare that I see everything in terms of what he has to say. And the man says that the past is prologue. He's right.

And that's MHO.

NO you knew only because of the racist question - remove that question and think what you would have thought .



Don't know what your watching but Sharpton been all over this and I just watched another TV interview last night with Sharpton promoting more racism

Really
Its time to get passed this crap - don't bring it up for our new generations to learn how to hate

Fine. But when the thread begins with the STFU statement and the same person posts the same stuff on this forum, sometimes you've got to call them out on their BS.

Thanks YoYo , you said it better

That would be MHO also. There is a cartoon that is possibly racist. Do we ignore it or do we discuss it? I don't mind Sharpton bringing this up. The harm would be that we hide it. Do we discuss stuff like this with our kids or do we ignore it? Ignoring it empowers it. Ignoring it is the Ronald Reagan prescription for dealing with racism. Pretend it does not exist anymore. Too bad this doesn't work.

Back to reading "1491". Good book. I need to reread "Guns, Germs and Steel" after "1491". There is so much more out there worth discussing than stupid racist cartoons but the cartoon is worth discussing too.

Sorry

I don't get the connection between Obama and the Kite , either .
Yes Bryan can be a cartoon at times but I believe he does that for thread hits ? other wise a nice guy

The larger question Poly - is why do we need to even BRING it up with our kids ? ? Thats what I am talking about . Don't train the new generations - keep that shiit in history class and leave it there

You don't make any sense. Keep it in history class but don't bring it up with your kids? Don't train new generations? Don't train them to do what? Talk about racism or train them to ignore racism? Just look the other way? Sounds like what a lot of people were doing on the bus with Rosa Parks. "Oh please why doesn't she just go to the back of the bus and stop making such a fuss?"

We need to bring it up with our kids because racism exists. Is the cartoon racist? Not sure but it sure is worth talking about and not ignoring. Training them to ignore it is just wrong.

"There is so much more out there worth discussing than stupid racist cartoons"

I felt and still feel this way after reading Shock Doctrine. Things like this seem trivial. Triviality is in the eyes of the beholder I realize.

Hmm Thanx

Excellent subject for it's own thread.

Yerp!

OH! NOW I Get It!
THE "Elevated Chimp"
See, without Sharpton that went right over me head!
<NOT!>

Geezus can we just shoot HIM instead?

(...and this time I don't mean the chimp.)

edit:
and I'm having the Pancake Queen blown up to POSTER SIZE
thnx

I'm going to wade into this and defend carp. I understand where he's coming from and totally agree with him.

I learned a lot living in Hawaii for a couple of months. Far more than I expected. I always figured it was just a bunch of Americans living on some nice real estate. I couldn't have been more wrong. When you get away from the tourist areas and integrate with the people you soon find out what a true melting pot this society is. Perhaps it's their isolation. Hawaii is out there in the Pacific Ocean far from any mainland. Folks have wandered there from many different regions. Interracial and ethnic marriages are the norm, not the exception. Folks simply don't see colour like mainlanders do. Racism such as it can exist on the mainland doesn't happen in Hawaii. Why is this?

Carp's grand daughter could easily date a black guy, an asian or someone who's a mix of everything. No one would look twice or think anything of it. Kai has no idea to associate black people with apes. Why? I think it's because she's never been exposed to it. In her world there is no such thing. People of different colour and ethnicity have moved along and left their "past" behind them. They went to Hawaii to start a new life and have moved on. The past is the past. Life is what you make of the present. The US has moved along from the days of inequality. Every citizen has the same access and opportunities. It's up to the individual what path they choose. Screaming racist at every opportunity only perpetuates racism.

If everyone had ignored this unfunny cartoon, how many would have seen it? I know I wouldn't have. If it had been ignored, young people like Kai would not know to make such associations. The cycle will never end until people like Sharpton STFU !!!

Well, in my HO, there's overt racism, and there's invoking racist attitudes. The latter doesn't necessarily have to be deliberate, and that's what this cartoon is really all about. You can argue that it was, at the very least, ill-conceived and very low on the "get-it" scale. Dumb, in simple terms. But the broader take-away, in part due to societal conditioning, was racially offensive and/or insensitive. Again, IMHO, carp is only half right. Yes, we can and should move on, but only after there's been enough discussion and examination to have framed the issue at hand properly. Once dissected, understood, and properly cataloged, it can be put on a shelf. But to just shove it behind a couch because it seems unimportant from a that was then this is now POV just invites similar and possibly escalating events to follow.

Once dissected, understood, properly cataloged & come to terms with

can it be put on a shelf.

Maybe Darwin was right!
It must be shear bliss to have grown up in
such total isolation that only Filipinos
are looked upon as Monkeys.

The time has come to put it on the shelf in the far back room.

Some folks like wallowing in misery. Heck, some make a career out of bringing up the past's wrong doings. You talk about societal conditioning? Move on!!!

maybe we can stop teaching about the Holocaust and other tragedies altogether.

"Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" -- George Santayana

i will teach my kids about racism and how it manifested itself. not in a way to encourage them to use it or practice it any more than i want them to become the next Hitler. i am curious as to why you believe that to do so one must "wallow in misery." i actually enjoy studying history and enjoy reading books about world history, even when the story isn't pleasant. it is what it is. i don't wallow in it and i am not wallowing now. maybe Sharpton is, but like i said, i haven't paid him any attention.

marg, I couldn't disagree more. In order to know where you're going, you need to fully understand where you've been. Granted, racial intolerance is of of those inconvenient nuisance subjects — something we'd all like to see go away and stay away — but it's an issue that effects us all today and future generations tomorrow.

When racism has been literally "discussed to death" we can put it on a shelf. Until then, it's on the table. Moving on is a personal choice, and on this issue, I intend to stay with the dialog.

My wife and I opted to NOT sit our kids down and teach them about racism. Instead, we are indifferent to race, never bringing it up when discussing or interacting with people. We figured setting an example was far more important. And the lesson seems to have taken. They're old enough now to be aware of racial differences and the past but I've never heard them utter one single derogatory word about someone's race or treat anyone differently because of it. Much different than my childhood when I threw the n word around liberally and never hesitated to crack a joke about someone's race.

There is nothing wrong with teaching about racism within the confines of history class. People should know about our past. I do mean ALL. Both sides, all sides.

There are indeed many who wallow in misery. Instead of being crippled with a giant heavy chip on their shoulder, perhaps those folks should take a more positive view on life. Many people from differing backgrounds have gone on to become good world citizens even though their roots aren't always the best. Why do some make it and others don't? They focus on the future, not past doings.

There's far too much focus on what our ancestors did or didn't do. If there was more forgiveness and placing the past FAR in the past we'd have less wars in the world. "Tribal" warfare goes on and on because people wallow in "what was" instead of moving into a better world.

Mike, good for you!! I raised my daughter the same way. She has friends from every background you can think of. She judges people on their merit, not what colour they are or where they are from.

Sometimes you have no choice but to opt in to the discussion. For most of my childhood and youth, I was never confronted with racial differences, so it just wasn't a front-burner issue.

In '64, we moved to Mercer Island, WA when my father accepted a job in Seattle. It only took me two days to discover that Mercer Island had a very robust Neo-Nazi constituency, and that those fine folks had many sons and daughters in the high school. Let's just say that what was barely on my radar in Boston suddenly blossomed like a fireball very quickly. We moved back to Boston a/b a year later, just when school desegregation by way of busing hit the front page of newspapers all over the country. Again, the issue was impossible to ignore or avoid.

In '79 we adopted a Colombian child. But she had no discernible ethnic characteristics or features, so we never got any of the sideways glances or remarks that mixed race families often encounter. Fast forward to the late 90's. I and my youngest daughter (almost 7 years old at the time and whom we adopted from China) overheard a comment from the subway seat behind us: "I'll never get used to these old Jews adopting all these damned China babies." That bothered me and it really bothered my daughter. She had a great response, "They're stupid. I'm no baby!" But she wanted to know why they said that and what it meant. There was no way to avoid the discussion. No way to simply "move on."

Now she's almost 16, and she has a very healthy understanding of racial issues, and she sees for herself how stupid (and dangerous) racism is. Aside from that one incident on a NYC subway car, she's never personally encountered racism. But she has had friends that have, and she's able to engage in educated and compassionate dialog with them when the topic comes up.

My daughter is the same. We never made "race" an issue. Her favorite and closest friends were black when she was in school. Her reasoning? They weren't stuck up.
You can also add sexual orientation.

i never threw the word around liberal or not. i grew up in a small town in Kansas where minorities are the majority -- if you can believe that (an army town). we had a significant black population and i learned quickly that some words were not appropriate as others found them derogatory. i never felt the desire to use these words even though i'd heard them used. i understand these words are bad and when i hear them in a movie i know the intention is often to verbally harm others. learning about racism doesn't automatically make a person want to be a racist any more than learning about farming didn't cause me to want to be a farmer . . . or a coal miner . . . or a jerk . . . or geek (okay, i take that one back). ;~)

these discussions are always hard to navigate as we all have these very specific anecdotes that seem to confirm our thinking. i think we're much closer than not but we're perceiving different angles of the discussion and reaching different conclusions based on our particular lens to this topic.

IDEALLY:
Dialog promotes UNDERSTANDING
Understanding Promotes ACCEPTANCE

Then we can ALL "Move On" TOGETHER

BTW:
It's MUCH Easier for the WINNER to "Move-On"
The underdog takes the injury far more personally

EXAMPLE:
White people are willing to "Move-On" from the Slavery Issue
...they weren't the ones that were made to suffer.

If whites have chosen to suddenly go *BLANC* when ever
the issue rears it's ugly head, and everyone pretends to be
not only totally clueless, but totally "OUTRAGED" by the
Rev. Jeremiah Wright's residual anger, then it's time for
a long-over-due discussion,
no matter how uncomfortable it might be for "Polite Folks".

I was the subject of prejudice:
When my WASP Dad brought his WOP Bride
home from WWII to meet his family, they
disowned him... with the scathing remark:
"Why didn't y'all just go & marry a N!GGER?"

...and my Jewish In-laws referring to me as a "Shiksa"

Aye - you saved me some typing there.

- padmavyuha

OK, now that the Can O'Worms has been broached...

For those that failed to fathom "Jack"'s anger
(and subsequent Puppet-Name "NaziBoy") ...
"Jack" wasn't a Nazi...
...his WIFE, however was a Muslim...

...and while we're at it...she's a "Filipino"
So much for our friend, carp's Halo

The INNERNET:
...gettin' so that you can't insult someone
without a score card

But the ones living today never were slaves , so what the issue ? This is the example of living in the past and not moving on

"Lady" let's just say thanks to the internet .... you have NO idea who you addressed or what MY roots are. You are making wrong assumptions.

I moved on. Past is the past.

and "LADY" Neither do YOU!

carp, let's pretend that we're going to have a car race 300 years from now -- our families. my family locks your family out of the car making classes that my family goes to and it's the only class offered (and there's no other sources for learning this stuff). so my family starts making cars. my family locks your family out of the car driving classes as well because you need a car to learn to drive. all through the years my family learns to make better and faster cars getting ready for the race and we even set up race courses to practice on. eventually, we allow your family to have some rudimentary parts from a leftover lawn mower. so your family is allowed to build a car, but it's shoddy and won't come close to competing and you have to build it and learn to drive it on your own. good luck. finally, about 40 years from the end of our contest, we allow your family to do anything it wants. of course, there are still people who don't believe your family should be learning to build and drive cars, but we can sue them to get you in those classes if you're willing to fight. so we get your family all squared away to prepare for our race . . . but my family is way ahead. now the race is upon on us and i am telling you that your current family members weren't discriminated against and didn't experience the hardships that your ancestors experienced, so why aren't you prepared to race against my rocket car? your car looks like something my family was making 2 hundred years ago. come on carp, stop whining and just take your losses like a man. we're equal now.

(the above story is an outrageous example to make a point . . . carp and i have no such bet in place in case you're curious)

I'm with you, Carp.

I saw absolutely zero racist overtones in the editorial cartoon. I find it amusing that the liberals here, who want nothing more than to continue seeing racism in every nook and cranny, are now beating you over the head trying to get you to change your mind. Not even the election of a black President is enough to convince them we have changed as a country.

My God people, move on.

Sometimes, carp, I think you dig your heels in too deep. To the point where only the very top of your head is visible, and that prevents you from seeing or hearing clearly. Argument solely for the purpose of argument.

No one is proposing that we continue to "live" in the past. But some issues are so complex and so pervasive that to shelve them and pretend they're over is to allow them to resurrect and redouble themselves repeatedly. There is dwelling on the past, and there is vigilance. Continuing the examination and discussion of harmful things is to keep them from perpetrating that harm on all of us.

Today's African Americans needn't discuss slavery and discrimination because their ancestors, not they, experienced such. Jews under the age of 40 should forget the Holocaust because they weren't alive then. Gay and Lesbians don't need to remember Matthew Shepard because, well, he was just some kid no one ever heard of before he was tortured and murdered for being Gay. What are Native Americans still so pissed about all these years after the White Man stole their land and their culture?

Dude, we're talking about keeping hate and injustice behind a barbed wire fence and under a bright spot light so it can't slink away and attack under cover of darkness. That, my friend, is NOT living in the past. It's living FOR a better future.

What are you talking about ? ? My ex-wife is a Ilocano in case you don't know what race that is its a Filipino , there are about 11 different filipino races and that makes my daughter 50% Ilocano .

Whats your direction ? fwiw , since mainlanders seem to only look at color as a form of racism , my ex-wife happens to be more "Dark Skinned" then Obama , shes more Black then he is .

I'll tell you what you can race backwards into time all you want

I will race forward

[quoteNo one is proposing that we continue to "live" in the past. But some issues are so complex and so pervasive that to shelve them and pretend they're over is to allow them to resurrect and redouble themselves repeatedly.[/quote]

What do you think Sharpton just did ? he repeatedly brings back the past _ something you don't understand or refuse to see what he is doing . Like I said I never made the connection but here comes Sharpton and reminds the world that blacks are depicted as monkeys <-- heavens sake Steveg don't think like a racist

Thanks for clearing that up, Matt. Racial sensitivity is exclusively a Liberal thing? Got it. So you won't mind then if I say that social indifference (or historical deaf dumb & blindness, or tone-deafness, if you will) must be a Conservative thing.

I hear ya. You guys move on. The rest of us will catch up later, and we'll bring enough rope to haul you back up the cliffside.

nobody is asking anyone to race backwards and none of us are racing that way either. i was merely trying to help illustrate how complex the issue of racism and past slavery were. if my point was lost on you then i apologize for wasting your time.

it's not even like i am asking you to modify what you do day to day or anything that requires a sacrifice on your part. i was merely trying to demonstrate how a person who is Black might have a very valid and different perspective than you or i. but now we're getting back to this, so i've come full circle with you.

It's not that simple. For a start, there are plenty of black people who are still getting the short end of the stick because they're black. And the thing about the past is that it's what forms the present. I've done work as part of my counselling training that makes it very clear that people in the present are dealing in themselves and in their current relationships with stuff that happened to their grandparents and further back - pain and secrets get handed down through families and the descendants suffer in their turn. I know some really messed up jewish friends who are bearing the burden of their ancestors actually surviving the concentration camps. I think it must take a really, really long time to get over your people being hated/treated as less than people on the scale that jews and black people and others have experienced it, especially when it's obvious that in some places the hatred is still very much alive, no matter how much you try to 'legislate' it away. It's the same in India with the caste system. On paper, it has been outlawed, there are no longer any 'official' untouchables, but it's stiull deep in the national psyche and Dalits are still beaten and killed for letting their shadow cross a higher-caste person, or drinking the wrong water. I think it's naive to believe that legislation will change people's prejudices. The need for such laws is proof of people's inability to self-govern.

I hate to say but your car example made no sense to me at ALL

As for Empathy - feel that towards me , please . Because of affirmative action I am now discriminated against' in favor of a person with color . In Hawaii there are people with color from across the world , brown , black , tan , yellow , pink you name it but if your white and with affirmative action , your dog meat trying to get a job here and white is the MINORITY here , witch is the reverse then the white population on the mainland , in short the color spectrum is larger in the affirmative action that goes against me

Well where your at - but not here

Glad you brought this up. So... how does it feel, White Boy?

Are you starting to get it now?

The correct term is "Haole".

Racist!

This is what I was on about...

I'm glad I was wrong in perceiving you as someone
that would condone that type of behavior.
What just kinda' got glommed onto what I was saying
about "Jack"... and why he reacted in what seemed
like senseless anger on his part when a few members
were spewing a lot of crap about Muslims, instead
of towards al Queida.

He was bounced before he told anyone why... then he
told me to "just ferget about it!" as he washed his
hands entirely of MM.

I'm still angry because I'd gotten to know him pretty
well once I gave him half a chance. Anyway, I'd virtually
met his wife...and his 2 Australian Cattle Dogs, Molly
& Jake... LOL and his chooks (chickens)

Anyway, his wife is beautiful... she looks a lot like
your daughter... and as I said, she's Muslim.

I read some of the posts in this thread and I get the feeling that I'm in that theoretical post-racial world that commentators (mostly tendentiously "conservative" ones) sarcastically laid at the feet of Obama and his election. This is what I know about the way race really works in my neighborhood.

My city, an old, gritty, urban, decayed, economically down the tubes and sinking lower kinda place, is almost entirely black and hispanic. The city is not quite a hell hole, but it definitely is going in that direction. There's crime a-plenty, an astronomical murder rate, theft, hold ups, house invasions, drive-by shootings, drug deals gone sour--you name it: if it's illegal, we've go it. Cross the Schuylkill River into the suburbs and everything changes. There are almost no blacks or hispanics. The streets are clean, the property values high, the tax rates correspondingly low, the crime rate non-existent.

From the point of view of the kids growing up in the area: suburban kids simply don't come into town. Period. They're scared sh!tless. In town, blacks dislike hispanics because hispanics have taken over almost everything. Hispanics hate blacks because blacks challenge them constantly for jobs and housing and so on. The few white kids in the town live mostly in the Heights, the only enclave that has any wealth at all. A few of the kids go to the city schools; most of them go to private schools or parochial schools. The white kids who go to the city schools end up in one of two conditions: they either hate both blacks and hispanics because kids in both groups swagger and strut to establish their status and protect their down in the dirt turf; or they understand what's going on and become incredibly post-racial.

Let me also point out that the crime and all-around nastiness of the city fits quite neatly into the racial prejudices that everyone seems to be saying we no longer believe--except that those prejudices construct the life experiences of every single person in my town. Why so much poverty? Well geeze louise, we're talking blacks and hispanics, man--welfare queens and deadbeat dads whose only real activity seems to be to get women pregnant and then to leave them behind. And don't try to explain to me that there's a powerful residual after-effect of three and a half centuries of slavery and post-slavery apartheid, followed by 50 years of a grudging yielding of civil rights. That's all in the past. It doesn't matter any more. Let's move on. And why oh why can't these people move on? There must be something wrong with them, surely.

I see the hopelessness of the people in my town every single damned day. I see how that hopelessness affects every single thing that they do, from the way that they behave now to the way that they think about their futures. That's not to say that there aren't individuals who work outside of the cultural expectations. Exceptionalism, limited in its scope as it inevitably is, and denigrating to those who are not exceptional as it must be, nonetheless has traditionally been the American answer to social problems, our own peculiar version of pie in the sky. But I can tell you with a great deal of certainty that no one needs to tell the kids in my town what racism is all about. They experience it and its consequences daily.

Thats Government sponsored discrimination , affirmative action is good on the mainland since you people only think about color - Here it back fires

I am
25% - Norwegian
25% - Irish
50% - Japanese

my daughter
Norwegian
Irish
Japanese
Hawaiian
Filipino
Chinese

My grand daughter
Pertuorican
Black
Spanish
Norwegian
Irish
Japanese
Hawaiian
Filipino
Chinese

How can I look at and judge people with color ? I don't and never will . I teach my children to judge a person on their ""attitude" and merits - the school can teach the history of racism

Well said yo-yo

Hers my thoughts on the Mainland USA racial problems .

1 - They just wanna live in the past and keep the racism alive like Sharpton , just keep on bringing it up

2 - They segregate themselves into communities of only one race <-- big big wrong

3 - They keep on not getting better education and employment even with affirmative Action on their side ? ? Gheees , crime is the easy money , education is much to much work and I think its because of segregating themselves into a hell hole

My Hood
I have on the left for a neighbor a Japanese family , to the right I have a typical white family , directly in front a mixed local family , in the back a black family = we all live together

You're still refusing to recognize the most important point, carp. It's not whether you are racist or not. It's whether you're willing to write off those that are. So you've moved on, but what about those that still cling to racist attitudes. You don't think you have to keep an eye on your rear view mirror? You just drive on down the road happy as a clam?

You haven't witnessed what yoyo has. You haven't experienced what I have. You are not, I have to say, speaking from a position of authority, yet you continue to discount those that can! There's nothing else I can say except good luck.

Religion is another source of racism - great you brought that up as well

Aye...
and I don't like seeing it used as "a get out of jail free card"
just like many people don't like seeing "affirmative action".

Nope we are so far ahead , those distant headlights in the rear view mirror , past is so far behind , its ridicules to bring them up aside from a history class and a TV documentary but to inject it back into the society is shear stupidity - but I guess Sharpton gets paid for that ? ? To teach "you , mainlanders" what we have here have already knew so long ago

You got a long way to go my friend - and don't look in the mirror , move forward

Ever been to a Buddhist Funeral ? ? - its a really beautiful experience and I am not saying its just different from the run of the mill Christian ones . Its truly a wonderful send off

You've been taking lessons from keymaker. Or hitting his bong.

my car example that you don't get was just me trying to say that blacks were slaves while whites were building wealth. whites were starting companies and building companies and buying better houses and getting better schools while blacks weren't even allowed to own houses or property or go to school and get an education. finally slavery ended, yet the white society had a huge head start and it wasn't even until your lifetime that the National Voting Rights Act of 1965 was passed that, "outlawed discriminatory voting practices that had been responsible for the widespread disenfranchisement of African Americans in the United States." (wikipedia)

so, in our lifetime we finally see voting equalities. we finally see everyone able to vote for the person they want to represent them in Gov't . . . that everyone can help create our Gov't and participate in our democracy. that's huge and it's no small feat! but it takes time to go from just voting to having actual representatives in Gov't. there are some, but look at the U.S. Senate. the car example was trying to show you that the historical head start of hundreds of years makes a difference even if people today weren't involved directly in slavery. society was already set up to benefit white people and you can just look at the fortune 500 companies and the number of white CEOs versus blacks.the wealth system has already been established so even with everything else being equal, the suburban schools are infinitely better than the urban schools in every city in America -- every single one. that's a huge benefit even if nobody alive today was a slave. i taught in a school with more than 70% free and reduced lunches where whites are the minority. i have taught in a school suburbans school as well. huge difference yet both are public schools. the kids in the suburbs have a big advantage and they can use that advantage to help get a leg up on life.

i certainly feel for the white people who are part of the 'have nots' of society. Obama addressed them in his race speech. they find themselves losing jobs to minorities because of Affirmative Action. i think we'll see the end of Affirmative Action in the not too distant future. i think the Supreme Court hinted that it's time is nearing. but the reason it's not over is because of the head starts that have been given to the white majority haves.

Further down Carp sez:


I may be entirely wrong but when you said "Let's move on. And why oh why can't these people move on? There must be something wrong with them, surely," you were being facetious or joshing big time! Carp thinks you meant what you said!

Then he describes the utopia he lives in and basks in! I'm glad he has it so great. I hope all other residents of the state feel the same way and enjoy what they have. But, . . .

I said in another thread that because we have a Black president does not mean that racial prejudice and injustice is not still going on in the United States. Your description of where you are is living proof there is still a lot of work to do. And from his posts I gather he thinks racial prejudice and injustice will go away if we just "move on" and do not bring it up. Don't discuss it. Ignore it and it will die and wither on the vine.

I don't think so.

The sardonic is easy to mistake, Kate. One of the great contemporary literary theorists, Robert Scholes, says that the ironic/sardonic is the most difficult category to perceive. I think he's right.

This is a common problem... it's the same with the Holocaust.

km

Well, the moronic political capital system is deeply entrenched and can't be rebuilt as a merit/expertise gubernatorial, until the system is allowed its certain inevitable supercession.

Hopefully, this will occur before the enormous, unwashed, unassimilated mass overwhelming health care and education, absorbing resources like a black hole, become the new Jews of the Holocaust.

Ed

apparently, Rupert Murdoch gets it:

Just another stupid mainlander living in the past. Move on, Rupert.

I love apologies like that. He is sorry that people took offense. He is sorry they interpreted it as racist. I guess that is about all you are going to get from someone like him.

Typical guiltless apology. Only for the those who were offended so you can avoid admitting how stupid it was in the broader sense.

Oh yes. What to do. What to do... Move on? Forget? Or Deny?
[rhetorical question]What would you recommend?[/rhetorical question]

given that it's Rupert Murdoch, i'll take any apology as a positive sign. heck, he even said they made a mistake . . . i can only imagine how hard that must be to say after watching Bush for 8 years.

Mostly he is sorry that his company's stock is trading under $7.

yeah yeah yeah

the past is the past

however

the cartoon was not only seen as "racist"
but another case of planting the seeds of assassination

That's NOT the "PAST"
it's a potential FUTURE

in any case it was over the top

I think the fact he paid 5 Billion dollars for Dow Jones a year ago and a fool would pay anything north of 500 million today for it makes him even sorrier.

Think about that one. His decision alone he forced upon his stock holders made 4.5 billion dollars vanish into thin air. Couldn't happen to a nicer person. Too bad he isn't going to be eating cat food.

Well especially written sardonic prose can be difficult to perceive at first. Spoken, at least the tone usually gives away the sardonic intent. But that is language specific. But even that is language specific. I am sure I have mentioned before that the Japanese are very asardonic (that word sounds sardonic in itself no?). I am probably a little too sardonic and people just don't get me half the time. My wife, who is Japanese, used to miss my sardonic statements and take them at face value to our mutual consternation. Now, at least when we are having a dispute about something, she will often just assume that if I say anything that sounds like I am agreeing with her, that I am being sardonic; which causes even more problems. I could just try to be less sardonic, but it is almost instinctual.

"Sardonic - alluding to a Sardinian plant which when eaten was supposed to produce convulsive laughter ending in death" as opposed to "sarcastic - alluding to "biting the lips in rage"" - dictionary.com

Sorry for the interlude.

Not at all. That is very interesting.


/not sardonic
/not sarcastic
/most sincere