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You are not logged in. [Log In] AppleCentral » Forums » General Discussion » Soapbox » perceptions are everything...
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#414779 - 02/17/09 12:48 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: steveg]
Lea Offline
LoneStar

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 10539
Loc: Texas

Does anybody know what his flame-on threads were originally about?

Oh! Oh! Better ~ Does anybody even care? laugh laugh




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#414781 - 02/17/09 01:11 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: Lea]
steveg Offline
Making a new reply.

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 27495
Loc: D'OHio
I care. But remember, I only give wrong answers.
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#414782 - 02/17/09 01:19 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: Lea]
lanovami Offline
This space for rent

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 7405
Loc: 東京都
I'll take km over a lot of the riff raff that's been thru here, and at least he keeps up his end by replying to criticism.
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#414785 - 02/17/09 01:22 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: lanovami]
yoyo52 Offline
Nothing comes of nothing.

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 30520
Loc: PA, USA
And when KM gets over thinking that "law" describes the world, he makes for a good arguer.
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#414787 - 02/17/09 01:31 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: lanovami]
steveg Offline
Making a new reply.

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 27495
Loc: D'OHio
There's replying to criticism, and there's accepting it. km most certainly takes a more civil approach to contested issues, and that's more than can be said for some of us rowdier, more confrontational types.

But quite frankly, those I take most seriously are those who take themselves less seriously. I'll take that over civility eight days a week.
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#414793 - 02/17/09 02:46 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: steveg]
Reboot Offline

Muhahahaha

Registered: 04/22/02
Posts: 15046
Loc: Columbus OH
Originally Posted By: steveg
There's replying to criticism, and there's accepting it. km most certainly takes a more civil approach to contested issue, and that's more than can be said for some of us rowdier, more confrontational types.
He kinda grows on ya', doesn't he? And he's never once mentioned your, uh, vertical disability. smirk
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#414797 - 02/17/09 03:42 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: steveg]
newkojak Offline
Mostly Proper Comma Use

Registered: 11/03/02
Posts: 3634
Loc: Chicago, IL
Just replace homosexuality with any other kind of person and you would have ban-able offenses. What would you do if someone responsively and politely argued that (insert blacks, jews, women, etc... here) were actually nonexistent in nature and shouldn't have their interests looked after in society?

A polite bigot is still a bigot.
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#414807 - 02/17/09 04:33 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: yoyo52]
carp Offline
Dino's are Babe magnets

Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 27021
Loc: Hawaii
Originally Posted By: yoyo52
And when KM gets over thinking that "law" describes the world, he makes for a good arguer.


Like a good ambulance chaser he can turn fact into fiction - turn Farts into a lovely smelling Rose - turns barf into a hot chicken soup - death into a Jihad - murdering is okay so long as you have a dispute .

Okay if you believe in that ?


Edited by carp (02/17/09 04:35 AM)
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#414809 - 02/17/09 04:43 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: newkojak]
keymaker Offline


Registered: 12/14/07
Posts: 6026
Quote:
What would you do if someone... argued that... blacks, jews, women... were actually nonexistent in nature... ?

Point out that he or she was several olives short of a full pizza.

Quote:
... and shouldn't have their interests looked after in society?

Call in the ladies and gentlemen in the white coats.

Quote:
A polite bigot is still a bigot.

Yeah...w... Dr Harren you mean? I don't think she's a bigot,,, she was just advancing an informed viewpoint on the causes of homosexuality.

km

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#414810 - 02/17/09 05:02 AM Re: perceptions are everything... [Re: carp]
yoyo52 Offline
Nothing comes of nothing.

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 30520
Loc: PA, USA
I think that the basic argument he usually works from, that a social system is defined by law, not by "moral response" is probably true. If you've seen The Reader, that's the premise of the law professor in the flick. But that proposition leaves a great deal to be desired. For instance, if the law says that blacks must sit in the back of the bus, then on what grounds can one challenge the law? An appeal to a moral imperative seems to me inevitable, but "moral response" is distinct from "law," and a society is not obliged to pay any attention at all to morality. So, to reprise KM's argument from a while ago, gays who want to change the law on marriage have no standing to do so, and marching to raise consciousness becomes at best a tiresome exercise and at worst an illegal assembly. Demonstrations in the South of the US to break apartheid laws were treated precisely in that way, and it was only by dint of keeping on keeping on that the moral righteousness of the Civil Rights demonstrations led to changing the law. But until the law was changed, the demonstrators were breaking the law, and "deserved" to be in jail.

Now, I recognize perfectly well the limitations that KM's perspective (if I've got it right) imposes on moral action, but at the same time I also recognize that KM is right about the legal rather than moral foundation of social practices. In fact, on what basis does one appeal to morality? What's the source of morality? How does one assert the validity of morality? Is "moral righteousness" and indignation simply self-righteousness, just a way to impose a particular point of view that lacks the sanction of law? All those are difficult questions, I think--and I suspect that KM would not be satisfied with a response modeled on the SCOTUS Justice's remark about pornography, that "it's hard to define what pornography is, but I recognize it when I see it." I recognize a moral imperative when I see it--but . . . what's the authority for it?

I guess one could work from the premise that a moral action is one that works towards an increasingly larger distribution of rights and freedoms--so not being forced to sit in the back on the bus is a moral response because it enlarges the scope of rights and liberties, whereas the apartheid laws were immoral because they limited rights and liberties. But that perspective runs smack into all sorts of religious and "traditional" practices. Now, I'm perfectly willing to live dangerously, so to speak. By that I mean that I see law as a limitation to human freedom, which may well be necessary but which needs always to be considered skeptically and, as often as possible, dismissively. I'm perfectly willing to negotiate the validity of a "moral response," knowing full well that there will be times when such a response will produce really profoundly problematic social realities. But I firmly believe that there is such a thing as social progress, and that the only path to such progress is by means of asserting a moral response rather than a legal one.

Much of what I believe to be the case derives from John Milton's "Areopagitica," by the way--one of the most resoundingly liberal assertions of liberty ever written.


Edited by yoyo52 (02/17/09 05:04 AM)
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