Why not? In both cases there was a willingness to talk without pre-conditions which is why there was a breakthrough. The IRA only gave up its arms long after Stormont was re-established as the seat of political power in Northern Ireland.

In South Africa Nelson Mandela served 27 years for refusing to deny the armed struggle against apartheid. It was only when the Botha government agreed to accept his terms of talks without pre-conditions that a settlement was reached and he was freed. I linked Mandela's defiant speech at his trial earlier in the Silly Sods thread so here <--- it is again...

km

LOL. I suppose, this being winter and all, that it's only natural to want to play with Frosty The No-Man. Me? I'm just gonna toast my feets by the fire for a while.

Actually, though, these threads do have an almost Escher-esque quality to them. Does this feel somewhat familiar?

Call it whatever you like - just don't veto it.

km

Because behind all those talks -- preconditions or no -- was the ulimate willingness to live peacefully with the other side, given the right conditions ...

If the discussions had opened with: "We demand no preconditions to talk, and by the way we wish to see you wiped of the face of the earth regardless", nothing would have been achieved.

In my opinion, no country should have the right of veto in the UN ... might make things a bit more *gasp* democratic.

Alas, it (the Security Council) was set-up as a power base for the permanent members ...

Wrong.
When people say "both sides are wrong" they also imply there's some kind of balancing justice.

For decades now, Israel has destabilized what's left of Palestine, depriving the people of any means of self determination. Demanding "Palestine Officials" to keep the lid on is pure cynicism.

Hold back the huge support payments and watch how soon Israel will be coming to the negotiation table.

Perhaps, if Israel (and the rest of the west) had treated Hamas as the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people - which they were and are - there could have been a chance for a peaceful solution.

If anyone needs to prove their sincerity, it is the Israelis.

And that remark about km favouring "wiping Israel off the map" (a misquote), is off base. Why resort to personal attacks?

Wrong yourself.

When people say "both sides are wrong," they imply shared blame. Period. Being wrong is like being pregnant. Either you is or you isn't. It's not a matter of degree.

Israel's over-reaction is as wrong as Hamas provocation. Hamas knew what was coming. They knew Israel would respond with 100 times the force, and they knew what the result would be. To them, the PR aspect is more valuable on the world stage than the innocent lives they used as pawns. And you and others have bought into it unwaveringly.

Yeah, Israel should have just sucked it up and kept it's guns holstered. Ah, but then what would you have had to bitch about this week? Who's arrest could have been demanded. What tribunals demanded?

Neither side is interested in peace. One wants the other removed from existence. The other is determined to prevent it at any cost. One is as wrong — and as crazy — as the other.

The Israelis intentionally choose to use the
Emotionally Loaded Phrase "Destruction Of Israel"
because it conjures the Horrors of the Holocaust.

Please try to wrap your head around the fact that
the "CHARTER" States that Israel will no longer
OWN the Land if the Palestinians Outnumber them.

IOW To "Wipe Israel off the Map" would simply
entail redrawing the maps & changing the names.

Well it WOULD Have, had they not committed DECADES
of atrocities & deprivation upon the inhabitants...

And perhaps if Hamas didn't have a standing commitment to the elimination of its neighbor, the West might have an opening to establish such relations. It's tough to have a peaceful solution between two parties when at least one of them basically stands for the total eradication of the other. In this case I'm convinced there are factions on both sides holding such convictions, which makes the situation even more untenable ...

But you're right, much easier to simply blame just the one side for the mess and be done with things =P