I've already dealt with that argument by pointing out that you're contradicted by the European experience where gay groups campaigned for civil unions and achieved them. Discrimination is something that is FELT not some abstract concept that can be assigned to intelligent people who know what they want and are perfectly at ease with what they have. km
Ah, but there is the difference pointed out a couple of times above. In the United States there would be a much different perceived difference between a civil union in the US and in Europe. In the US the perception and the reality is that a civil union alone without the word marriage would be very unequal.
Proud MacBabe. Happy everything to everybody.
Loc: B.C. Canada
You're assumption that there's a trend that will inevitably continue into the future is pure guesswork.
I have no assumption at all. I am stating a fact. The world IS different now, with regard to same-sex marriage than a few years ago. No matter how you try, that cannot be dismissed. A trend- we shall see
The State Court had ruled that same-sex marriage was permitted. Proposition 8 struck that ruling and rewrote the State Constitution. That is not Judicial Review and is the reason it is already being challenged in the courts.
The Constitution protects citizen's civil rights so that the rights of a minority cannot be removed by a majority. The state courts, and maybe the US Supreme Court will need to rule to change the Constitution to remove civil rights.
In the US the perception and the reality is that a civil union alone without the word marriage would be very unequal.
That's not what they thought in California. km
I get to yell out BINGO!! That is why this thread exists. We are disconcerted that the people of California reversed their decision and made same sex marriages illegal again. We think the Mormon Church and possibly a small percentage of people in California took stupid pills on election day.
California leads the way normally in the United States. They may be a tad whacky but they push the envelope. Sadly, in this case they seemed to have goofed.
First of all, there are vast legal differences between Civil Unions and marriage. Property rights, tax benefits, inheritance rights, benefit sharing, shared citizenship for immigrant partners, you name it. Most importantly, Civil Unions are not recognized on a consistent level nationally. So the states are in no way separate but equal, which makes it discrimination.
As far as discrimination being just a feeling, that's just not true. Nor is it an abstract concept. It's something that actually happens to people and has concrete results. And if it happens to a gay couple (for example, a contested will or denial of medical benefits) and they have no legal recourse because their civil union isn't recognized, then they're back to being second-class citizens.
You listed those countries that do not permit same sex marriage, and I pointed out that there's a pretty severe reason why they do not.
All you did was pick out an unrepresentative minority of states from a very long list... the 'severe reason' why in Britain we don't allow same-sex marriage is that we dealt with discrimination by way of all party agreed solutions.
But America is a democracy,
Yeah sure - most of the nations on my list are democracies except they have some clue about what the term means.
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