Many of us have Muslim friends. But this is so far beyond friends and people of good will. Who can stop this tide? <br><br>Waleed, you probably know that I'm very critical of our leaders. I'm not one who hates authority. I'm just one who hates the abuse of power. Our current president abuses power for the benefit of his group of friends and associates. A lot of people don't like that I'm so critical of him and his staff, but the way I see things, it is my responsibility as a patriotic American to strongly voice my dissent when our president wages war on people illegally and kills innocent people, even if he gets his targeted enemy in the process. <br><br>I can only hope that more people join me over time -- and that has happened, but not because of me. It's just that others have gradually seen what I see, and now they are critical, too. At least we are now forming a mass of people who can be seen and heard just about anywhere you turn in the USA. On the internet or on tv or radio or in concerts or in books and magazines and newspapers -- you hear our voice now. 6 years ago, we were called traitors, and accused of treason. Now we are the majority.<br><br>I can only hope that in your part of the world you all will do the same. Criticize the evil criminals who are committing such horrible crimes in the name of Islam. Bring together masses of people who normally are not heard. Let the world hear you. Let everyone know that Islam is NOT for murderers and cruelty. If you don't, the world will believe that film. <br><br>It's going to take thousands, then millions, of voices of Islam, all singing out the message "we do not tolerate murderers. Allah does not tolerate murder." The world must see this. The murderers must see it and they must be outcast from their own society. If the USA has go go after them, or England or France or Russia or any other country, it will only be used as fuel to recruit more members. But if young Muslims know that those people are evil and must be shunned, then you stand a chance to turn the tide from within, as it should be turned. <br><br>I think it's the only way. Well... the only way short of wars.<br><br>I've never met a Muslim in person that I didn't like. I hope I can always say that. <br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Shooshie on 03/29/08 01:23 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Who can stop this tide? <p><hr></blockquote><p>Well to be frank, it'll probably be athiests like Poly, Sean and myself.<br><br>Because as long as there is religion, this stupid [censored] will be going on.<br><br><br>Hey I'm an F'n Jerk!®

Actually, it may not be the tide we think. There is good news:<br><br>Fitna not causing the stir that was feared. It seems that the movie is only saying what has been said. Many of those pictured in the movie are being prosecuted in their own countries. Maybe the world isn't so impressionable as we feared. <br><br><br>Shooshie<br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:green]Pictures and things</font color=green>

This current situation indeed seems to be a rift between the West and the Islamic world and it does bother me too. Kind of ironically in a perverted way, here in Finland for instance, it has come to a point where some native Finnish-born [middle-aged] converts to Islam decided to start an Islamic political party with among others, promoting to get Sharia incorporated into Finnish law. (Well, there's a saying about converts being the most eager in their beliefs and actions) Not sure if they've gained that many followers though, even or especially from the immigrant moslems here. And never mind that they have apparently been involved in whatever small-time grassroots political movement has been in fashion at a given time.<br><br>What I see and am afraid of and even witnessing on discussion forums for instance, what is happening is pretty much what others also said. That is, the ones most vocally opposing Islam do not even know one single Moslem or have even read much about it, except the extreme ones they see in the media, yet they claim they now know Islam. Sure they do...they know the propaganda being fed to them daily. This just happened when a radical Dutch imam was interviewed by a Finnish paper about that movie and quite soon after its release now there are already comments basically stating all Islam is that same extremist stuff. Yet, at the same time, similar atrocities and other deeds can directly be attributed to christianity also. And not even that long ago.<br><br>Personally, I don't know any moslems to my knowledge, but I really do not want to jump the bandwagon condemning an entire religion just because it doesn't happen to be the same one my own culture instilled on me while growing up, though I did shed it off at a rather young age. Also the whole hypocrisy by people claiming they are religious -- any religion -- sickens me time after another as people might insist on their supposedly superior moral values yet in the same sentence condemn more than two thirds (at least) of this planet's population -- which I thought to be my and their fellow brethren -- only because they do not share the same creed. Naturally, I've seen people claiming their christian faith doing this all my life as that is with all its sects or factions or whatever, the dominant religion in the West, and at the same time I've been fed images of radical Islam whenever there has been a conflict involving westerners and Islamists.<br><br>No matter how secular the West claims to have become, religion and religions are still being used as a vehicle of propaganda, message of propaganda and means of propaganda in conflicts by the ruling elite. Not to mention how religions are most often being used as one rather efficient way of controlling the masses of population by the elite. As a civilization, we are eons away of advancing to a level where faith should be ultimately just a personal thing and nothing more, like Sarge for instance mentioned.<br><br>

<br>Thank you.<br><br>That was the most Enlightening 45 Minutes I've spent in a long long time.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>

I whole heartedly endorse your post. You are right on the money. It is our freedoms in the US that welcome dissenting opinions and criticisms of our leaders. In order for the Muslim world to dissent against the outrage in the name of religion will only come with freedom. I don't believe that the west can seriously impose our views of freedom on the Islamic world. Somehow, they have to find their own way. I imagine that as long as oil is in the mix, tyranny will reign. Easy money begets corruption and oppression. <br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by mojo_jojo on 03/29/08 04:25 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>

<br>Encouragingly, many of the European Islamic associations have responded very calmly. One - I believe the Dutch - even offered to air the film on their network, as long as the director - Wilders - would be prepaid to appear for an interview, which he declined.<br><br>The "Film" is truly poorly made, nothing new in it, and one can only hope that the more moderate Muslims will take this opportunity to point out that some things aren't worth fighting for. Wilders is a stupid jerk and doesn't deserve the clicks.<br><br><br><br><br><br>

Well, it wasn't a total waste of time.<br>For one thing, I got to watch Waleed's links<br>that was definitely worth the time, I suggest others may want to check them out as well<br><br>Then I searched for the movie, but couldn't locate a copy (in truth dint search too hard)<br><br>but what I did find was interesting: <br><br><object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PJqvVlwy1Us&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PJqvVlwy1Us&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object><br><br>Zionism versus Judaism Pt 1/6<br><br>Zionism versus Judaism Pt 2/6<br><br>Zionism versus Judaism Pt 3/6<br><br>Zionism versus Judaism Pt 4/6<br><br>Zionism versus Judaism Pt 5/6<br><br>Zionism versus Judaism Pt 6/6<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>

<br>Yes, very interesting links.<br><br>The fact that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are really first cousins, makes their mutual hate all that much greater. <br>Thus, the fundamentalist, power hungry factions of each, provide food for their counterparts on the "enemy" side.<br>Idiotic!<br><br>Religion should really be relegated to the home.... <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

<br>Well, my point was rather that there's mischief afoot<br>in that the two faiths are not cousins, but brothers by another mother<br><br>and that Christianity & Zionism are the two at odds that hijacked BOTH <br>and set them at each other's throats for their own purpose: CONTROL.<br><br>It kind of begs the question, again, of exactly WHO are the 'TERRISTS'?<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>