<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Funny how the far right never said SQUAT when Pat Robertson, and Jerry Fallwell spew hate sermons.<p><hr></blockquote><p>There is no moral equivalency here though. I'd prefer it that any self identified conservative here would not bother to mention Robertson and Fallwell because I would hope that those people would assume they not need to.<br><br>A big part of what has brought all of this about is the insistence that we try people in our court of public opinion by association. Obviously, you could debate the merits of a John McCain first denouncing Jerry Fallwell, then making nice in his next run for president, but it would be unreasonable for everyone to have to explain and denounce every single event that could be implausibly connected to his or her political philosophy.<br><br>If we are going to stop apologizing for politicians, we need to stop asking each other to.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U

Yeah, exactly.<br><br>This whole thing is rooted in the idea that you love people despite their imperfections. There is this incredible need in our current politics for pissing matches between our various outrage. Perhaps is the amount of gasbags on televisions or the preponderance of opinion being delivered as news, but it seems that so much of the oxygen in our philosophical arguments is taken up by whether or not someone has adequately attacked one thing or idea or person.<br><br>That is the exact challenge presented by Sen. Obama's speech. He is in a sense saying, "Yes, this is where I'm from. These are the problems with it. This is how we fix it." What he is doing is not politically "safe" because it is so straightforward and it took a lot of courage to do that.<br><br>I think that a lot of the less enlightening commentary on this speech will border on the absolute obtuse. I'm sure that people will pretend to not understand or take a selective interpretation from it. That's fine. Sen. Obama is a better man for having given this speech and the kind of voters that don't appreciate this kind of argument probably would never support him anyways.<br><br>-- Cee Bee Double-U

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You tossed off the same thought as a number of other people in the same words as a number of other people with the same glibness as a number of other people. I'm sorry for believing my explanation to be more plausible than your notes in the margins<p><hr></blockquote><p>Good for those numbers of people. I'm certain they and we all thought and said the same thing because .. well .. that's exactly what Obama did. Glib? Nah. It was shocking to see Obama tie his grandmother in with Rev. Wright. I say "shocking", but after all, Obama IS a politician. Power comes first. <br><br>***********************<br>I got nothin'

Cary, your comment "...This whole thing is rooted in the idea that you love people despite their imperfection..." is why I posted Andrew Sullivan's quote in the beginning of this thread. To hear some of the condescending remarks made of Obama's comments only exposes how biased some people are, whether it's calling Obama a liar or taking his words about tolerance and acceptance of family and mentors and trying to spin it as something demeaning and hateful.<br><br>"He addressed the intimate, painful love he has for an imperfect and sometimes embittered man. And how that love enables him to see that man's faults and pain as well as his promise. This is what my faith is about. It is what the Gospels are about. This is a candidate who does not merely speak as a Christian. He acts like a Christian."<br><br><br>

nah, all he did is say we all have elders who grew up in different times and had different perspectives that we don't share, but that the inner person isn't bad because of their upbringing and skewed biases.<br><br>i still remember my grandmother wanting to go watch my high school play a basketball game and i drove her as she was old and frail nearing 80 at the time. i went to a high school where white students were less than 50% of the total student population. the second largest racial group was black students. we arrived and started looking for a seat. there was a group of black students taking up one section for about the first 3 rows. i guided my grandmother next to them and asked her if she wanted to sit right behind these students. in a voice that was far too loud she said, "no, i am too scared to sit near those blacks. let's go up higher." much of the group turned and stared and i could've just died right there. <br><br>we all have these experiences in one form or another and Obama was highlighting this commonality. i am not surprised that you're picking and choosing this snippet or that one to highlight and parse to try and appease your notions of what you want Obama to be. more power to you.<br><br>

Poly, <br>well I heard another long section last night driving home from class... he was talking about frustration in the black community... frustrations in the white middle class, affirmative action, etc.. <br> I think he nailed it... and his plea to work together for the good of all was well founded, and explained.<br>I'll try to get to the whole thing tonight... <br>the only part I think Wright might not be happy with is Obama denouncing parts of his sermon.... but I also have to say I heard a chunk of Wright's sermon and there is a lot of factual truth there... (about our history) ... it just was presented in too inflamatory way and his soultions/answers are quite different and radical from Obama's plea to become more united to better the country for all of us.<br><br>The right wing pundits and the "grandma under the bus" criers totally missed the big picture, but they're never going to admit anyone outside their narrow minded scope has anything positive to say or do anyway. H3ll my dad sometimes would use racial slurrs (not very often but rarely and most of the time in jokes), made me cringe just like Obama's grandmother, but you still loved them with all their faults. I totally empathesized with Obama there. and you can't pick your family... it is what it is !<br><br>David (OFI)

YouTUBE has a good copy of the full spee... anywhere else.<br><br>Do yourself a favor... listen to it as a whole<br>before you hear it hashed to death all day <br>everyday ad nauseum, for months to come.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>

<br>[color:blue]These questions will come from that same group who cannot transpose themselves out of their lives and into the life of this man. It really shows a form of idiocy. That they can form only one thought</font color=blue><br><br>As you may have noticed, I'm holding back recently, which will probably mean this forum will be off-limit until November. ;)<br><br>However, this characterization of yours is way beyond mere elitism, in that it practically considers any objection to what your man is saying as idiocy. That, perhaps, is one element of this Obamarama, that is turning some people off.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

I gotta say, that was a VERY good speech. I don't think I have ever heard a candidate give a speech like that!<br><br>Thanks for posting it because I hadn't really paid any attention to him (or anything political) but now I think I know who I'm going to vote for. <br><br>my photos

Is it elitism to have the ability to put oneself in another's shoes and see life through their eyes? So be it. I find it a useful tool which allows me a way of focusing on problems in my daily life. It may seem harsh to call someone who cannot or will not do this an idiot but I believe it is a severe handicap.<br><br>I sit in a contentious meeting and my side is starting to yell. The opposing forces on the other side of the table are coming up with completely ridiculous bean counting restrictions and the science is going to grind to a halt. But by putting myself in their position, seeing the frightening consequences, the loss of turf and power, I can see why the hackles are up. So by doing this I can come up with a solution that puts them at ease, and their power and turf are protected. ( I can steal it later since now I know their weak points.)<br><br>When I wrote that line about transposing oneself into the life of another I was not thinking only of Obama. I was thinking of Cass in "Somebody in Boots" by Nelson Algren or "Native Son" by Richard Wright. I was thinking of taking those main characters and walking a mile in their shoes. To understand Obama you have to do that. To understand Wright you have to be in the pulpit in the South Side of Chicago. To understand why Obama will not stop loving Reverend Wright or his grandmother you have to do that.<br><br>What I was really thinking about when I wrote that was Joe South's tune "Walk a Mile in My Shoes".<br>[color:blue]<br>If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour<br>If we could find a way to get inside each other's mind<br>If you could see me through your eyes instead of your ego<br>I believe you'd be surprised to see that you'd been blind.<br><br>Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes<br>And before you abuse, criticize and accuse<br>Walk a mile in my shoes. </font color=blue><br><br>Am I elitist to think that the ability to walk a mile in someone's shoes is necessary to understand how the world works and that someone who cannot do it is an idiot? So be it. You aren't born with it. We are born self centered and the world revolves around our crib. Then some of us grow up. Idiots don't. A lot of the criticisms of Obama's speech are the criticisms coming from self centered children who cannot look beyond their own shoes. To be PC I will not call them idiots. Mentally challenged?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>