Hello,<br><br>I recently installed a second ATA hd (seagate 60gb) and installed os 9.2.1 and os 10.1 on it. I have a B/W g3 450mhz with 768mb ram. Rom Bios is up to date 1.1f4 version. Everything seems to be working fine until I went to print and there were no drivers, extensions for my epson 740i in the second drive, so I thought I would copy/drag them from the first ATA HD (which is using os 8.6) to the extensions folder on the second HD and received a message saying network sharing wasn't working (not exact phrasing). The computer froze so I pressed reset to start again. I restarted and tried to used the epson cd to install the drivers, etc and this process froze the computer so I restarted again and was able to install them on the second hd, then I restarted the computer and now it doesn't start up from the second HD even though I have selected it from Startup in Control Panels. I then ran Disk repair utility and it stated minor mount problems so I clicked repair and thought that would solve it, but it still won't start up from the second HD even after selecting it from Startup in Controls Panels. I have also tried starting up holding the option key down. I have run TechTool Pro 3.0.5 and it showed no problems with either drive. The second HD is ATA 1 and the first is ATA 0 in the profilier. Some books suggest the power supply might not be able to provide power to both HDs but it seemed to be working fine for a couple of weeks. It boots to the primary HD using 8.6. I really don't want to resort to re-initializing the second disk and reinstalling everything again. The Apple manual that came with the computer (7/99) states it can handle up to four drives; 2 ATA and 2 scsi. Any suggestions ? Is there any easy way to check the battery and power supply capability ?<br>crap :-( <br><br>willowtree<br><br>
It's my understanding that the new drive, with both OS X and OS9/Classic, installed on it is not partitioned??<br><br>This is inadvisable. Too many problems arise during the upgrade/update process for either OS.<br><br>Aside from that I would be even more concerned about the effects of running Tech Tool Pro 3.05 on it, single volume or partitioned. It likely may do more damage than repair any problems. It's more than merely incompatible with OS X. It normally causes problems and Micromat does not claim any OS X compatibility for its use.<br><br>The usual, and simplest solution, would be to run Apple's Drive Setup 2.03 (or 2.07) from an OS 9 startup CD and "update the driver." This often causes recalcitrant drives to mount again.<br><br>(I'll presume you didn't format the drive with Intech's SpeedTools 3.4, FWB HDTK 4.5, etc. as they provide all sorts of drive mounting problems and broke, not that they were really compatible, with Mac OS 10.1.)<br><br>Back on the issue of running a utility to repair a drive containing (or on which is installed) Mac OS X 10.1.x. Disk Warrior 2.1 has provided good results, IMHO, when used with a drive that has OS X on it somewhere. It cannot, however, be run from an OS 9 partition on a drive which has OS X on another partition.<br><br>Some claim some success with Norton Disk Doctor 6.03, which I also have, as I do Tech Tool Pro 3.05 and Drive 10. I'm not that comfortable with DD 6.03, although Speed Disk 6.03 seems to work well, especially with a custom profile (never the default profile under any circumstances).<br><br>I'm assuming the drive, partitioned or not, was formatted HFS+. That will provide faster operation and most recommend UFO partitions only for Linux, not OS X, on Macs.<br><br>I've wandered a good deal. It's unclear to me whether the drive is partitioned or not, how formatted, etc. I am quite certain of the correctness of my comments about TTP 3.05. It should not be used, even on an OS9/Classic partition, of a drive that has OS X on it. It should only be used on drives containing OS9 and no other.<br><br>The source of your original problem is possibly coincidental if you used a formatting utility other than Apple's Drive Setup (or the one included on the OS X 10.1 Update CD which functions essentially the same way).<br><br>If OS X and OS9 were installed on the same volume (no partition, your new drive) that was also a problem waiting to happen and something as simple as updating/installing a printer PPD or .plugin file. This seems to be true of most files which live in /System or /Library when both versions of OS live on same volume. <br><br>(My comments don't mean problems will ALWAYS occur when both OS are installed on same volume. But the potential seems to clearly increase that possibility.)<br><br>If Drive Setup is used to "update the driver" (which actually may repair any minor problems relating to boot blocks as well) doesn't work, then Disk Warrior 2.1 invariably does. It may be tool late, however, since Tech Tool Pro has been run. <br><br>The more fragmented a hard drive is, an especially common situation with a new drive on which OS 9 and OS X have been dumped, updated a few times (each), and had a number of applications, possibly also files intalled, creates a fragmentation problem similar to one in which a drive has been used for months.<br><br>This can be demonstrated by running the freeware profiler from Alsoft, the one in Disk Warrior 2.1, or obtaining an overview via Speed Disk 6.03.<br><br>On such a new drive where 8 to 10 GB is installed it may often be a good idea to run Disk Warrior 2.1 several times during the course of the installations/updates.<br><br>Disk Warrior 2.1 might repair the drive and salvage most of the data. I'm skeptical. It largely depends on which "tests" and "repairs" TTP was allowed to make, whether or not drive partitioned, etc.<br><br>The mounting problem was probably fairly simple and is usually caused by boot blocks being damaged accidentally when an OS update goes go properly or by use of non-Apple formatting in the case of drives with OS X.<br><br>CharisMac Engr reportedly is introducing a new version of their formatting utility, Anubis, which is OS X compatible during MacExpo. I'd be surprised. SoftRAID, Intech, FWB, et al are waiting for Apple to finanlize low level disk routines with OS X, hopefully 10.2, before shipping updated formatting software.<br><br>128k_Mac<br><br>The box said "Requires Microsoft Windows or better" so I bought a Macintosh.
128k_Mac,<br><br>Thanks for all the info. I originally wanted to have three HDs, but couldn't afford it. When I received the os9.2.1 and 10.1 disks the small manual offered different installation options. I opted for the simplest. I thought of partitioning the drive and putting os9 on one and 10 on the other, but wanted to experiment and see how it went. I did format the drive in hfs +. I used apple's drive utility to format the drive. After submitting the first query on macminute I learned that the pram can be corrupted and cause problems with Startup in controls panels so I zapped it using techtool 305 and it appears to have worked and can now get to the second HD to os 9.2.1 or os10.1. I have forgotten that techtool doesn't work for osX, but when selecting for drives I didn't have a choice because I installed both os on the one drive. I know it's a risky and possibly expensive way to learn.<br><br>I will keep your suggestions handy and once I can afford a third HD I will designate it os9 and reinitialize the existing second drive and install os10.1 on it by itself. I have a scsi card adaptec 2930cu 50 pin and wanted to get a seagate scsi 50 pin but seagate says they have discontinued 50 pin with more advanced drives, so now I am wondering what I will do with this scsi card. Any ideas ? One last thing I might mention to all updating to os10.1. It did not have my modem PowerMac g3 56k in it's list, so it wouldn't recognize it. After several calls to apple the tech suggested using the Globalvillage 28-56k modem type and it worked. <br><br>willowtree<br><br>
willowtree<br><br>Sadly you are correct about the suggestions/instructions for installing OS X and Classic. Each new Mac of course ships with both installed on the same drive with no partitioning.<br><br>And in fact this approach seems to work for some. Unfortunantely, for others it doesn't, especially over time as one or both of the OS are updated or modified by the user. The general thought, and this is only my simplest of explanations, is that the large number of files that result from the two OS sooner or later over write, damage or otherwise cause related problems. .<br><br>Without fail I've noticed that experienced and knowledgeable users, especially among the geek set, invariably recommend installation on seperate volumes. The volumes may be on the same drive via partitioning or different drives. The end result seems to make little difference.<br><br>My own theory is that having seperate drives for the two volumes gives me another OS to access for startup in the event of failure of one of the drives. Drives do all have a limited life and are normally rated in terms of 3 or 5 years or whatever for warranty purposes.<br><br>Quality SCSI drives, with Seagates being my traditional choice for many years, seem to make liars out of their warranty period more often than the less expensive ATA (IDE) drives found in more recent Macs from the G3 desktops forward. This may be an inaccurate observation as I havn't given ATA drives the amount of time required to form an opinion. They are largely less expensive than SCSI because of the design (controller mechanism, etc.), not because of any implied inferiority.<br><br>Trying to wander back on the topic.....<br><br>In my case I have an "accumulation" of six or eight Seagate drives of various configs (LVD, UW, etc.) lying about, mostly low mileage Baracudas and Cheetahs acquired over the last four years.<br><br>I'm surprised to learn that Seagate has totally discontinued making 50 pin (narrow) SCSI drives, although the market in recent years has clearly been towards 68 pin LVD 160 and faster drives. I assume the ATA/IDE drives have simply driven them out of the market.<br><br>Large Mac dealers who stock(ed) a fair amount of SCSI include (in my order of preference): MacGurus (lots of good online information plus forums for discussing SCSI, ATA, FireWire, etc.), OWC, and APS. OWC and sometimes MacResQ sometimes have some especially good bargains on drives when they acquire a lot of discontinued SCSI models somewhere.<br><br>MacResQ is probably the best source of used drives as they seem to get quite a few reconditioned drives from LaCie (mostly Seagates) and elsewhere. I wouldn't buy one of their drives unless it came with a warranty, which they often provide. I've even seen some of their LaCie drives come with an original factory LaCie warranty which LaCie honors (likely because they don't know the difference).<br><br>On the whole it's difficult to recommend SCSI to anyone anymore, even high end Mac graphics users, because FireWire is relatively less expensive. FireWire cards, ranging from $50-$100 in price, can even be obtained with dual USB support if needed for older Macs. At present they are still not as fast as the fastest SCSI, 68 pin LVD 160 and beyond, but the Adaptec and ATTO PCI controller cards cost $400. and up, plus the high cost of the drives themselves.<br><br>With your 2930cu card there's always the option of using a 50-68 pin adaptor. I'm surprised you didn't get one with your card. In recent years they've been an included item when buying this OEM Apple version of the 2930 Adaptec card. Maybe they've only started doing that in recent years. Have forgotten.<br><br>A 50-68 pin adaptor is relatively inexpensive, $10 or $15. as I recall. They are not the best solution in the world, but they don't give users the fits that SCA drives (80 pin; not designed for desktop use) do when a 80-68 pin adaptor is used. Whenever you find a "bargain" SCSI drive, new or used, look carefully for the "SCA" designation in the drive model number and avoid SCA drives like the plague.<br><br>(I have several SCA drives presently but won't get into all the associated problems.)<br><br>Your other option with the 2930cu PCI card is to watch OWC and MacResQ for their "specials." They often have 50 pin drives and sometimes 68 pin that will work as well. Keep in mind you don't want to buy a faster SCSI drive than UW (generalization) because you'll never get faster throughput than UW with your 2930cu.<br><br>Virtually all quality SCSI drives, certainly virtually all Seagates, are "backwards compatible." In other words, even LVD 160 are backwards compatible down to FW or UW 50 pin with a 50-68 pin adaptor, so if a bargain shows up in what should be an expensive drive they'll still work.<br><br>Just don't expect a 10k or 15k Cheetah to perform as designed without the right (expensive) Initio, ATTO, or Adaptec card.<br><br>I personally would "find a new home" for the 2930cu if/when not being used. SCSI support for OS X remains tenuous at best. With 10.1.2 it has all but arrived (except for SCSI CDR/RW writers as noted on the Dantz site) and is as "good as it gets." SCSI support is going to diminish in the future. Apple is basically stuck with supporting users who have bought PCI cards from them, especially the highend graphics users.<br><br>But Jobs made it clear in 1978 that SCSI was out and USB/ATA was in. SCSI support, not only for CDR burners, but also for scanners, DAT tape, misc. optical, etc. etc. is already very marginal or non-existent. You can see the posts on every Mac forum with each new version of OS X: "My (insert SCSI drive description) still isn't supported by OS X."<br><br>Sorry to say, that drive likely never will. And support for the 50 pin "family" of OEM Adaptec cards Apple has sold for years is already marginal. Researching compatibility issues with a card like the 2930cu is always advisable before investing in a new drive for use with it. I recommend the search engine on MacFixIt for reader experiences.<br><br>(Such searches can be a problem, however, because some users will incorrectly list 2930 or 2930cu and you're not always certain they know what they're talking about. The OEM Apple version does sometimes use different firmware and a book can be written about Adaptec and Apple playing hot potato with the issue of support.) <br><br>I personally don't think it wise to continue to use SCSI for a variety or combination of the reasons I've mentioned except in situations where a "bargain" can be obtained from one of the dealers mentioned. Such "bargains" are becoming increasingly infrequent.<br><br>I would avoid like the plague any used SCSI drive (or new for that matter) offered on auction sites like eBay. Most of them work perfectly well, but some of the 50 pin (and a few rare 68 pin models) will run only on PCs, were low cost drives with less than full hardware, and while they still use the SCSI bus addressing method, cannot be used as a startup drive. They're somewhat similar to the "ATA slave" approach to building drives. They can be a major pain in the neck. They often tend to be fairly old models and that usually means they may run for a month, but not thereafter.<br><br>(The used ATA drive market on eBay is also a little crazy. 1/2 the sellers either don't describe the drive properly or are a bit shady and clever enough to not provide the crucial part of the description you need to make an informed buying decision. New drives, especially those provided with a link, are not normally a problem.)<br><br>This is also the day and age of high performance, so-called RAID PCI cards for ATA drives. These tend to work great....with OS 9. Cost is usually $50-$100 and they support as many as 4 drives (although a bit of "redesign" work may be required inside a G3 or G4 tower).<br><br>Many of these PCI cards for ATA drives are all made by the same manufacturer and are sold by a variety of vendors under their own name. Sonnet is one of these vendors and sells a variety of PCI cards with different ratings for ATA, but sometimes the card just doesn't work with some version of Mac OS 9, let alone X. I'd be careful to verify that any such card supported OS X 10.1 (and that doesn't mean 10.2 will be supported). <br><br>MacMinute linked to a new product announcement by Sonnet announced at MacWorld Expo. While a 133MHz card it should work with a 66MHz or 100MHz bus. But that doesn't mean it will. It doesn't mean that "OS X" compatible for 133 means it is for 100 or 66, even though it may be OS 9.<br><br>Welcome to "plug and play" 2002 style. :rolleyes:<br><br>Particularly for discontinued Mac towers, and that means any model not presently for sale at the Apple Store (4th generation G4 towers only) I would exercise especially care in buying anything SCSI or RAID.<br><br>On the whole you're relatively safe with any 50 or 68 pin drive (with adaptor) with the 2930cu card. What you're giving up is the fact that your throughput is probably going to be limited to 20mb/sec maximum. The newer FireWire drives (Oxford bridge) are 40mb/sec. The high speed, so-called ATA/IDE RAID cards run from 40 to 160mb/sec.<br><br>You can buy a new, relatively inexpensive ATA/IDE drive, buy a FireWire box and build your own from a number of sources including FireWire Direct and FireWire Depot (link to them from SiteLink, always one of the best Mac web sites for Mac shopping online (as well as all the main Mac web sites like MacMinute).<br><br>Such build-your-own FireWire drives represent a real bargain and can migrate more easily to future Macs.<br><br>The ATA/IDE cards from vendors like Sonnet represent a better buy, if carefully researched, for use with OS X than SCSI. Your $50. card investment can be easily offset by buying the right ATA/IDE PCI card and two or more drives, possibly even one. You also then have the ability to migrate the card to future Macs.<br><br>I should have said "possible" ability to migrate the card. We live in an uncertain world with all the technology changes. I presently have four SCSI PCI cards, including a 2930cu, and also two high end cards, one Adaptec and one ATTO, with an Initio card in the middle. The SCSI drives I have are an accumulation of bargains, for the most part, picked up here and there over the last five years.<br><br>I've "migrated" all of the cards to the G4 (gigabit) I'm presently using, but the future looks questionable at best. Both "Adaptec" cards (including the OEM 2930cu) broke with different versions of OS 9 and were a real pain to deal with at it marched through 9.0, 9.04, 9.1, 9.2.1, and 9.2.2. All are supported (I think) by OS X finally, but with OS X 10.2........<br><br>I suspect the 2930cu (which I don't use) will likely continue to be supported, for the time being, with newer versions of OS X, but there may be a wait with a new version for updated firmware and sooner or later that wait is not going to end.<br><br>I've rambled all over the countryside. A few final comments.<br><br>Have read somewhere (MacMinute?) that Alsoft has a special deal on Disk Warrior 2.1 of $60. They may be coming out with a new version soon but if Dantz is correct in notice on their site that 10.1.2 has finalized most low level disk routines then a newer version may only offer some whistles and bells.<br><br>Now would be a good time to buy Disk Warrior. I believe URL is http://www.alsoft.com but won't swear to it. If you're running I.E. 5.1 or Netscape 6.1x it should show up under bookmarks or favorites.<br><br>I think if you take your take and shop some of the web sites mentioned above for bargains in discontinued Seagates, 50 pin, you'll sooner or later find one. The 18GB and 36GB 50 pin UW Barracuda models are your best bet, but they won't be as easy to find as discontinued 2, 4, 9, etc. size models. When listed buy immediately. The supply will invariably be relatively small and will be promoted to attract buyers to their site.<br><br>General rule: I'd buy only ATA/IDE drives, latest models of ATA PCI controller cards which clearly state OS X compatibility (and have an excellent return guarantee like Sonnet), or go with external FireWire drives. By buying ATA drives you have the best of both worlds. If one will work internally you may decide later on to pull it and stick it in a FireWire box. All FireWire drives use the inexpensive ATA drives.<br><br>Figure on any investment in SCSI now that works to be short term. Sooner or later Apple is going to start turning those present SCSI bays (in G3 and G4 towers) into FireWire bays. It's almost inevitable. Apple owns the patent to FireWire. Even with the challenge from USB 2.0 (supported by Intel) FireWire isn't going away any time soon (Microsoft, bless their hearts, supports FireWire).<br><br>My crystal ball shows Apple at some point in the not to distant future totally dropping SCSI support in their hardware and providing continued SCSI support in the OS not much longer after that. SCSI is all but dead on all platforms, from Wintel to Mac to *nix. It's last stronghold will be Linux servers, not the Mac or Wintel platforms.<br><br>You asked. I answered. <br><br>Geez....I love these rants! <br><br>Good luck.<br><br>(not edited, spell checked, etc....are you kidding?)<br><br>128k_Mac<br><br>The box said "Requires Microsoft Windows or better" so I bought a Macintosh.
Just noticed that MacFixIt is reporting that Alsoft has announced an OS X version of Disk Warrior, "shipping this quarter."<br><br>That may explain the "good deal" in my post of a MW Expo special of $60.<br><br>Whether or not a buyer of vers. 2.1 now would get a free upgrade or have to pay for one when it ships is ???<br><br>Just wanted to update my other post as time has expired for me to edit it.<br><br>(There's also some very interesting commentary about both the present and new versions of DW being able to repair "hard links," a problem in *nix for other utilities like TTP and something Micromat doesn't seem to have a handle on which is why I'm so unimpressed with Drive 10.)<br><br>128k_Mac<br><br>The box said "Requires Microsoft Windows or better" so I bought a Macintosh.
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>But Jobs made it clear in 1978 that SCSI was out and USB/ATA was in.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>That Steve is a real visionary, ain't he? <br><br>And that's true too.--Shakespeare, King Lear
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