(Not specifically to you, Poly. I just clicked "REPLY" on the last post in the thread).<br><br>I mentioned my granddad earlier, and spoke of how he was a deeply religious man, but very quiet about it.<br><br>He read his bible, he went to church, and believed up to his eyeballs.<br><br>But he NEVER really spoke directly about it. Instead, he chose to live his life in deeds that reflected the principles he gathered from his studies. He was known far and wide as one of the kindest men around; Example: He was hiring blacks, native americans, and japanese when many of his contractor/construction worker peers were trying to talk him out of it, and bad-mouthing him to each other and the unions because of his take-each-man-as-he-comes philosophy. He stood his ground, quietly, and continued on. Of course, the rest of the United States finally started catching up to what he put into action, based on his convictions.<br><br>That he lived his life quietly, as a good, and powerful-but-gentle man, is enough for me. I didn't care how he arrived at his life, I just looked up to him as a man whose deeds were worthy of emulation.<br><br>Similarly, though I could debate well, and until the cows come home, about my conviction that God is a myth, I generally choose not to, because I have taken a page from my granddad's book and try to live my beliefs quietly.<br><br>That should be enough for any man.<br><br>

yes it should . . . be sure and let those darn atheists know that the next time they <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV-a1vmZ6y8">knock on your door during dinner</a>. <br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I wanna know where the gin goes.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Short story:<br><br>I had a niece and nephew at right age an I think I was just out of college and my sister made a Santa Suit for me. It was really very exciting making smoke come out of these kid's ears as I ran across the lawn after ringing some reindeer bells. I would climb to the porch and read their notes then drink the whiskey set out by my sister. <br><br>I told her just a wee bit of whiskey and I have this full beard on so I have to sort of toss it down my throat and it's about four jiggers. After egg nog and some beers Santa had a real hard time not doing a technicolor Christmas Rainbow across the porch.<br><br>One year was 15 below zero and the whiskey was just fine. But the kids were getting suspicious by then and they saw me cut toward the front yard. I am freezing my nads off and am met at the door by my sister who makes me run back and forth for the next twenty minutes under the streetlights down the street like I am hitting the other houses.<br><br>Uncle Santa was a tad nippy. But it was all worth it when coming down from upstairs after faking a nap and they are bouncing up and down telling me what I missed and what Santa did.<br><br>With my kids I switched to a nice cold gin with a splash of vermouth. Goodness, Santa drinks martinis.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

I am going to take an educated guess and bet that your granddad would have been as righteous a man without the bible and the religion but in his day and age that would have seemed out of place and an illogical step for him to take. <br><br>Men can live very moral lives with or without the bible. I would bet your grandad knew that too. That was why he looked upon a godless heathen and only saw a capable man.<br><br>If the world was made up of men like your grandad you would never hear a peep out of me about religion again.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

Anyone ever read this book? I think it's deeply flawed, but it makes a provocative case for the ultimate limitations of rationalism.<br><br>Discuss.<br><br><br><br>&#63743; &#63743; &#63743; &#63743;

i think there's much truth to the fact that we can't answer a lot of questions that remain and that we may never be able to. then again, with advances in technology i won't count out figuring out some other big unanswered questions in my life time.<br><br>

In 1980 in my first lab doing real science everyone had just read Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid and the discussion was, everything in biology is solved, we are just cleaning up the loose ends. This wasn't the main premise of Hofstrader's book but the topic popped out of it. In retrospect nothing could have been further from the truth.<br>Now in biology one could say the same thing, we are just naming diseases and figuring out genetic pathways and enzymes. Much faster than before because we have blueprints, the genome in hand.<br>I could see a Watson or a Crick or even a Stephen Jay Gould saying that.<br>But really, nothing could be further from the truth. We now have some tools to explore the proteome and the brain but we are still using very ham fisted ideas to deal with the deluge of data. We aren't smart enough yet and there are breakthroughs that have to be made to clarify and simplify or it will be a very difficult task. I have no doubt those breakthroughs will occur.<br><br>Physics? Well sure, that field is played out and their just chasing inferred particles. But I don't know if the young studs in the field would be saying that. The old farts I bet do. And the book you mention has a long list of the old farts, the giants we are supposed to be standing on the shoulders of. <br>They should just hold still and be quiet. Their time has passed. <br><br>But haven't read the book and it's not on my buy list. From the quick blurb I would say the methodology is heavily flawed and the author has an OCD thing about khaki pants. Did he have an hypothesis and then went out to prove it by interviewing all the movers and shakers in science? He missed them by a generation. He should have been talking to scientists in their 20s.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

So do you believe that if religion was banned world wide that man would not still subvert a system to do what is done today? Men will still rape, men will still have sex with animals, men will still commit ethnic cleansing, men will still oppress the masses......<br><br>Religion is merely a convenient excuse that men use to commit evil acts on other men.<br><br><br><br>I used to think it was terrible that life was unfair. Then I thought what if life were fair and all of the terrible things that happen came because we really deserved them? Now I take comfort in the general unfairness and hostility of the universe.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Llewelyn on 09/11/07 06:51 AM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>

I would not ban religion because that would give it a special status. No, I would remove the special status that it has already. Tax it. Do not allow abuses to be covered up and ignored. Do not allow politicians to use it as a club to force acquiescence.<br><br>Yes, men will still be men and women will still be women with all their foibles. You cannot legislate their inherent need to try to join together in a group and do good things or bad. That some people have an insatiable need to have power and control over a group whether it is up to god or evil. That others have an insatiable need to be told what to do and why they are here. Banning religion would be a huge mistake. It would be boring too. The founding fathers had it right. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I would just try to change the attitude that when man bands together to do bad and call it religion that they are held accountable just like anyone else. Deference is not given because "oh, he is a religious leader." I would think that religious people should hold their leaders up to a higher standard because of the position of power that they hold. It seems instead that religious leaders are held up to a much lower standard that would get the local dog catcher fired immediately.<br><br>I would still not take part in any of these groups and that should be my voluntary choice. I should not have to carry any extra burden because I am not in the "in crowd." Leaving me alone and not telling me what to do in the name of God would be a start.<br><br>Making the excuse that evil will still exist is in the same category as "at least our sick bastards aren't as criminal as their sick bastards." We can all do better. We can certainly do better than to sit idly by and allow polygamists to rape 13 year old girls in God's name.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

BREAK<br><center><br><br><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SpkSeVgvA0o"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SpkSeVgvA0o" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><br><br></center><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>