I tell them I have worked 40 years to make the women's suffrage platform broad enough for Atheists and Agnostics to stand upon, and now if need be I will fight the next 40 to keep it Catholic enough to permit the straightest Orthodox religionist to speak or pray and count her beads upon.<br>Susan B. Anthony<br><br><br>

So what is the harm in believing in God? If, when you die and you had believed in God, and it is actually THE END as you put it, then so what? Would your life had changed all that much, especially if you "learn to take responsibility for your own actions and for the simple<br>pleasures, happiness, and rewards while still alive and kicking"?<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>my beer blog<br>

Marge, I commend you for your openness with your daughter. <br><br>my beer blog<br>

<br>LOL looks like were typing pretty much the same thing<br>at the same moment, You from the parent's perspective, <br>mine, from the point of view of the child.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>To put it more succinctly:<br><br>Religion was not only a way of explaining what was unknown at the time,<br>but also dandy for keeping people in line, in an unenforceable situation.<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>That's your definition of it. Doesn't mean that it's correct.<br><br>my beer blog<br>

my kids can form their own opinions -- if they want to believe in a God then i'll ask them to defend their position. if they ask me to defend my position that there is no God i'll kindly explain to them that i don't argue for a negative like this any more than i argue that there are no unicorns -- technically, i am not espousing a belief to defend. i don't have a belief and they don't either -- you and Lea seem to believe atheism is a belief when it's not -- at least in my case. i don't recall ever believing in a God even when i had to go a religious school as a child. in fact, when my kids and i talk about this stuff (and it's not often) i tell them that some people believe in a God and they are doing so based on faith and not evidence. and i've taken my kids to church and i talk to them about stories in the bible as though they are stories. i want them to understand religion because their lives will be surrounded by it. we'll read the bible as they get older. i took a bible class just last year from a man who is fluent in greek and hebrew. we had many varied copies of the bible and he had some written in the original language. he'd explain how interpretations occurred and how they could mean many different things . . . and then folks in the class would be able to show how their various copies of the bible had different things written based on the various interpretations, etc. this was a terrific learning experience and was more meaningful bible learning than anything i did back in religious schools.<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And telling your kids what to think isn't another form of brainwashing?<p><hr></blockquote><p>i don't tell them what to think about religion. i merely explain that religion is faith-based and that i don't choose to have that faith with no evidence. if they choose to believe me then i explain that they shouldn't talk about it out in public. we have these talks very infrequently, mind you. it's not like i take them to a church every Sunday to hear a sunday school teacher explain about a deity or his or her son. typically this stuff occurs only when they ask a question. i always ask them what they think and ask them to explain why they think that way. i try to keep everything on their level so that they understand and things aren't going over their heads too much. as they get older, we can have deeper conversations but right now they shouldn't have to worry too much about abstract concepts that fill our world with grief. <br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>John got in this a little late, but I believe he's saying the same thing.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Yeah, I think we are saying the same things on some things.<br><br>I got into this discussion because it was leaning so far over to the side of "you all are ignorant brainwashed savages if you believe in God or religion". <br><br>Talk about intolerance! Just because there are priests, reverends, etc who abuse kids, twist the bible to their way, etc, doesn't mean that the whole religion is bad. To those who did those crimes (abuse), they will be judged by God if they aren't alive, and those that bend/twist the word of God to their idea of how things should be, same thing as above.<br><br>That's like saying ALL police officers are bad because of the ones that abuse their powers in whatever form. Is the idea of someone upholding the law a bad thing? No. Get rid of those that do wrong so that the good ones can do their job well.<br><br>my beer blog<br>

No harm as far as I'm concerned, that's why I allow people<br>to go on believing whatever they're comfortable believing.<br><br>"What Ever Floats Yer' Boat"<br><br>I'm merely talking for myself, my personal travels & travails.<br>My opinion on things evolves over time. I simply grew out of<br>my religious stage of life, like I grew out of watching StarTrek.<br><br>Whatever.<br><br>However, I believe that the topic under discussion is people who<br>use religion to manipulate other people, or even get away with<br>murder, or rape, or kicking young males out of a protected life<br>style, like an aggressive species of bird expels it's own offspring<br>out of it's territory because it views them as a threat/competition.<br><br>People are also getting wary of fundamentalists of every stripe.<br>...maybe they're just getting tired of being lied to on the whole.<br><br>Whatever.<br><br>I've always gone my own way... I doubt if that's likely to change.<br>I've questioned authority all my life, i... change either.<br><br><br><br>[color:green]"...or am I a butterfly that's dreaming she's a woman?"</font color=green> [color:green]. . . _ _ _ . . .</font color=green><br>

There are only two things I believe are an absolute certainty on this subject:<br><br>1 - There IS a God<br>2 - He tells me that I shouldn't give a sh[i][/i]it what anyone else believes because it's none of my business<br><br>CreativeGuy for daily tips, tricks and commentary on all things graphic design.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Personally I think that those who adamantly refuse to talk about God in any way but a negative light are limiting themselves.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p> It's not like I have a choice so I guess I am limiting myself and my children. I believe in reality and do not subscribe to fantasy, mumbo jumbo so if that is what you understand as "limiting" then I really can't explain it. (But you know I am going to try. )<br><br>The reason I don't have a choice is that bottom line, I do not believe in a Supreme Being. Not one iota. It's not like I have this thing against religion but I cannot believe in fairy tales no matter how old they are. I grew up religious. I know the bible. I studied other religions. I read about other religions all the time, the Krakauer book is not the only example. I read ones which believe the hocus-pocus too.<br><br>You make it sound like I could go to the religious deli and order up a religion. Muslim, Christian, Jew, Invisible Pink Unicorner, or Praise to Santa Claus or the Holy Easter Bunny. The selection is limitless. Actually the last two sound more interesting and have more facts to back them up than all the rest.<br><br>To tell FSM that he is not allowing his five year old to choose is ludicrous. FSM does not believe in God. So other five year olds trying to get his five year old into believing a fantasy is wrong. A five year old cannot decide what is true or not. They still believe in Santa Claus.<br><br>Yoyo52 labels me a Positivist and I guess I can take that baggage. <br>1) I believe in things which can be proven. <br>2) I do not believe in things that cannot be proven.<br><br>I find it ludicrous for anyone to do otherwise. If limiting myself to the world that can be understood and keep out stuff that is made up that is one speed limit I will stay under.<br><br>Now since I live in a society that believes in things that cannot be proven and I get banged over the head by it every day I get a bit ornery sometimes and say things like, "so you teach your kids to believe in fantasy and fairy tales, magic and mumbo jumbo?" Even though the magic was written in a book 2,000 years ago and the majority believe it I think that a tad backward, a tad limiting. <br><br>What can be more limitless than the natural evolution of man that surrounds us every day? I study molecular biology so I am constantly getting my nose rubbed into the small end of evolution but I also as a hobby study geology and astronomy and am also constantly marvel at the macro evolution occurring there too. To me, calling upon a Supreme Being to help me out with the hard stuff and fill in the blank spots is the most limiting thing I could think of doing. It would take one huge chunk of wonder out of my daily life at the lab bench and at looking up at the stars or the Arches in Utah. Doing that and relying on a Supreme Being would spoil all the fun. To teach my children to rely on a Supreme Being would be fraudulent to me. I don't care to get in an argument of enlightened or unenlightened, as the other will always be unenlightened as and the converse enlightened. That's picayune babble arguing.<br><br>What I do want to get across though is that I am an atheist in a Christian nation. My family is treading upstream here in America. It would be different in England, France, Germany, lots of places but I live here. So when someone says things about how awful it is that I give my children no choices this irks me no end. It is speaking from the majority opinion. A majority opinion that denigrates atheism, pigeon holes atheists as less moral, less responsible, less a citizen than a Christian. That last part was taken directly from the mouth of George Bush the elder who does not believe we should have the right to vote. That view is shared by many Christians. But on the flip side there are no atheists who wish to make Christians non-citizens. Do you see from hence I am coming from? <br><br>So from this day forward I will no longer sit quietly by denying my atheism in mixed religious company. I am an atheist. I spent a lot of time working to be an atheist. It was not something my parents told me to do but they did force me to wonder and look through the telescope and ask questions and not accept an answer that sounded wrong or made up. If you think that they brainwashed me by forcing me to ask questions and not accept fairy tales for answers than I think we need another definition for brainwashing.<br><br>[edit] And to get back on topic I will not stand by and not comment on how kids being brainwashed to believe their elders are part of a magic religious circle connected back to Jesus and they use that power to prey upon children. I will not accept it in Utah and I will not accept it from someone making my child uncomfortable about the non belief in a Supreme Being.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by polymerase on 09/10/07 03:08 PM (server time).</EM></FONT></P>