The philosophical underpinnings of the quest for absolute truth in Science is nothing more than the adherence of certain pundits accepting what has been touted and hyped by those who went before them as truth, and who pass it along as absolute truth. And they get away with it because they are sociologically important. And they may be acting on the best knowledge available at the time...but they become too comfortable in their belief that they know what is absolute truth.<br><br>EXCEPT!<br><br>That there are always people working and researching and running tests and extracting proofs that will either confirm or disprove the ideas that are currently accepted as fact. And what is known as "the truth" in scientific pursuit will always be allowed to evolve, and change and grow toward a universal understanding, for everyone, beyond any sociopolitical pressure. Religion has no parallel of independent outside observation and confirmation. It is all self-referential, insular and based on faith in something which can not be proved by objective reasoning, and to the satisfaction of all observers.<br><br>Politics, economics or religion have absolutely NO bearing on scientific truth. Unfortunately, political, economic and religious pressures are brought to bear upon the way scientific truths are accepted and acted upon. Those folks who are indoctrinated into trusting faith over evidence are inclined to believe the interpretations fed to them by the people they have learned to trust.<br><br>Scientific proof is proof for EVERYONE, not just for those who have been conditioned to believe a certain set of ideological precepts.<br><br><br>

You are what your parents drilled into your head as soon as you left the womb. You are what the society immediately around you dictates.<br><br>So, you're saying you raised yourself from birth without any input whatever. That's amazing!<br><br>

Why take anything on faith?<br><br>Ask yourself that the next time you drive a car in traffic. There's a lot of faith involved there. <br><br>

Your comments Koresh comments I don't understand at all except that they show religion as a force that can be manipulated to make people do evil things. Are they human? Since we are talking about human traits, yes. Do you want to talk about dogs or cats?<br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Personally, I feel that if you don't believe in anything other than we'll just deteriorate in the dirt and that's it, then fine, but I think that's a sad way to live, because if this is all we have to live for... But to say that (and I forgot if it was you or someone else, so forgive me if it wasn't you) anyone who believes is an idiot and brainwashed, that's sad too. Intolerance is ignorant. <p><hr></blockquote><p>If you remove religion from your life and you think that is all that is left than I can't help you.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Why limit yourself? Why shut yourself off from that area? If you really think that wars were caused by religions, then I guess you aren't as smart as I thought you were. It's man using it as an excuse/cover. <p><hr></blockquote><p> Why limit myself? Are you kidding me? If I don't want to limit myself why don't I become a Muslim Jew who is a born again Christian? Now I got it covered. No limits. <br><br>Instead you pick a God. You are now the person with limits. There are rules to follow. Reverends to listen too and maybe even believe.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>So, following your "logic," we should never talk to or teach our children anything.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>I have no idea where you got that one. Do I teach my children to be good? To have morals? Do I never ever lie to them? Yes. I believe quite a few half baked Christians lie to their kids all the time.<br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Why take anything on faith?<br><br>Ask yourself that the next time you drive a car in traffic. There's a lot of faith involved there. <p><hr></blockquote><p>Just a misrepresentation of what faith we are talking about.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Where I probably part company with poly and Trog and other scientifically inclined folks--positivists, as we humanists like to call you guys--is on the idea that "science" (whatever that means in a very large and comprehensive sense) is somehow immune from ideology.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p>Oh I would not disagree at all. I have seen science work and evolve. Ideology abounds. Just take a look at Geology and how many years it took to move the new truth, plate tectonics in to remove the old. It was ideology which held it in place against fifty years of scientific evidence. I can give you much smaller examples, some being played out today around the cures for cancer. People get stuck in old ideas.<br><br>But science is immune to ideology compared to religion. That would be like comparing black to white. Religion is all ideology whereas science is built to eventually refute it through the scientific principles. That is why plate tectonics won the day. Because it was the truth. In science, the truth wins. Then we move on to new questions. Sometimes it is derailed by chicanery and fraud but it is inevitable that the truth percolates to the surface. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Yes, except about its own philosophical underpinnings. That's my point.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Why would you think scientists do not discuss our own scientific underpinnings? Do you think our cocktail parties are so boring we only talk of single nucleotide polymorphisms? Maybe we think the English Department chatting about Shakespeare and Nietzsche are boring and never talk about the underpinnings of why they exist? <br><br>We proved Nietzsche was just another monkey and you're pis[i][/i]sed, right?<br><br><br><br><br><br>

<OL><B>"But science is immune to ideology compared to religion."</B></OL>We really <B><I>are</B></I> pretty <a href="http://urlx.org/macminute.com/ed708" style="color: teal; text-decoration: underline;">like-minded</a>, eh?<br><br>

A long thread and I missed your post initially. Yes! I think Yoyo has to read it too. <br><br>SparkCollector:<br>[color:blue]The philosophical underpinnings of the quest for absolute truth in Science is nothing more than the adherence of certain pundits accepting what has been touted and hyped by those who went before them as truth, and who pass it along as absolute truth. And they get away with it because they are sociologically important. And they may be acting on the best knowledge available at the time...but they become too comfortable in their belief that they know what is absolute truth.<br><br>EXCEPT!<br><br>That there are always people working and researching and running tests and extracting proofs that will either confirm or disprove the ideas that are currently accepted as fact. And what is known as "the truth" in scientific pursuit will always be allowed to evolve, and change and grow toward a universal understanding, for everyone, beyond any sociopolitical pressure. Religion has no parallel of independent outside observation and confirmation. It is all self-referential, insular and based on faith in something which can not be proved by objective reasoning, and to the satisfaction of all observers.<br><br>Politics, economics or religion have absolutely NO bearing on scientific truth. Unfortunately, political, economic and religious pressures are brought to bear upon the way scientific truths are accepted and acted upon. Those folks who are indoctrinated into trusting faith over evidence are inclined to believe the interpretations fed to them by the people they have learned to trust.<br><br>Scientific proof is proof for EVERYONE, not just for those who have been conditioned to believe a certain set of ideological precepts.<br></font color=blue><br>I completely agree although I would not be able to say it so clearly. But the crux of the scientific position evolving into truth is right there. Along with why religion continues to evolve into magic and fantasy.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>