<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>At least this boy was not taught to suicide bomb to murder others in the name of Allah or another deity <p><hr></blockquote><p> You gotta be kidding me. You don't want me to start giving examples of killing for Christ do you? And you don't have to go back many years. A hundred miles from where those boys are is a place where the head of the Mormon church sent his soldiers of Christ out to massacre. <br><br>Please don't apologize for outrageous behavior like raping children by using a sentence starting with "at least".<br><br><br><br><br><br>

Wouldn't want to forget the Catholic church but I just read Under the Banner of Heaven so starting with the Mormon Fundamentalists is just too easy.<br><br>But Krakauer's book is an indictment of all religions because they all brainwash kids. Anyone who reads it then goes right back and tells their kids a bunch of lies should feel uncomfortable. Because what is the difference between their kids and Jeff's kids? <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Obviously, you've also been brainwashed. <p><hr></blockquote><p>Possibly, but I have one thing on my side. I do not believe something that has to be believed entirely on faith. If those kids had been able to say, "I would prefer not to believe that unless you show me proof. I cannot believe that my thirteen year old sister should marry an eighty year old man just because our religion says so."<br><br>Even the most milk toast religion that has been de-fanged and is a thousand years removed from the Crusades. When that child is tucked into bed does she have the ability to say, "I would prefer not to believe anything with requires only faith" ? That heresy would disappoint the parents surely. Might get them to send their kid to the reverend for some extra lessons.<br><br>The kid has no chance. It is brainwashing. Brainwashing occurs by using lies. Tell me one lie I have told. Show me one scintilla of proof that it is a lie. Now show me one scintilla of proof that you are not brainwashing your kids. Truth requires proof. Not a really hard concept to live by. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You don't want me to start giving examples of killing for Christ do you?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br>Yes, please do. I don't disbelieve you, I've just been looking for some examples to share with some local Bushies.<br><br>

Children want to believe in their parents - that's why it's so hard for them to think anything different from their parents, until they start to 'individuate' and become adults. And of course, most parents are people who've never really grown up, so it's not surprising that they end up involved with a religions institution that provides some analogue to a parent figure - both in the form of a creator deity, and in the form of an ecclesiastical hierarchy. I spent a number of years living at a Buddhist retreat centre, and I can look back and see just how much I wanted the more senior practitioners to be my parents, so I wouldn't have to grow up and take responsibility for myself - and I was in my 30's then!<br><br>If the parents are brainwashing their children, it's because there's something missing in them and their lives that makes them need to live through their kids. So it'd be more effective in the long run to deprogramme the parents, and help them live with and of themselves, so the kids would not have to choose between their parents and truth/love. I think...<br><br>- padmavyuha<br><br>[color:purple]A lopsided man runs best along the little side-hills of success<br>- Frank Moore Colby</font color=purple>

I agree with Poly. I'd love to ban all religions. Unfortunately, that won't/can't happen.<br><br>IMO, any "religion" that condones or turns the other cheek to rape/incest is every bit as bad as a suicide bomber. Folks have questioned why so called moderate Muslims haven't spoken up louder. I can suggest the same question should be put to Christian religions. Where are all the goody goody Christians? Why aren't they demanding an end to the rape of our children? <br><br>I'll tell you why. Poly is correct. All religious people ARE brainwashed. I'm surprised they can't see or understand this. You are what your parents drilled into your head as soon as you left the womb. You are what the society immediately around you dictates.<br><br>

Chances are that if every child on the planet was raised as an Atheist, some of those children would grow up and find a faith or religion.<br><br>I get that you believe, with absolutely no doubt (I say that with no little sense of irony) that all religions are a scam, especially when perpetuated on children. I don't get why you don't get that for some people, their religion is a source of comfort. They don't rape, brain wash, suicide bomb or force their faith on other people.<br><br>You've always had a "show no quarter" take on religion, which is really, just another form of intolerance.<br><br>Whatever truth there may be has to exist somewhere between empirical thinking and blind faith.<br><br>OH! Does this mean you're back? Or are you just toying with our affections? <br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>

Living in a Christian nation where the mere mention of the possibility that the majority of the parents are brainwashing their children is treated as heresy so examples of killing for Jesus are swept under the rug. She was insane (if God told her to cut the arms off her baby.) The Lafferty brothers were insane (read Krakaur's book). We have a President who openly admits to taking commands from God to attack Iraq. Is he insane? No, none of them are insane. They are brainwashed. Actually, Bush may be only partially brainwashed and the rest is just a politician's vice of taking advantage of the brainwashed condition of the populace.<br><br>Still, you want examples of killing for Jesus there are some real easy googles to do.<br>"God told me to kill" is a good one. Lots of Bush and young mothers killing for the Lord. And don't forget bible reading mass murderers like the Green River killer.<br><br>Killings as directed by the leaders of Christian churches happen but it is the day to day mundane drowning the baby in the tub because God told me that really gets the body count up. Brigham Young in 1857 only killed 120 men, women, and children (most of them with a muzzle to the head after he told them they would get safe transport) in one afternoon but it is hardly the norm for a church leader to get caught like that. (Oh wait, he was not taken to trial because the feds couldn't trust a jury in Utah.) <br><br>Rebuttals to all of this that start with "At least Christians don't kill like muslim terrorists ... example" leave me speechless. Are Muslim fundamentalists worse than Christian fundamentalists? Gee, what a question. Is it better to rape your daughter than kill her or is killing her and then raping her much much worse? That is a dumb argument to get into. But this is the argument your local Bushies want you to partake in but it's not winnable and you certainly aren't going to change a single mind (Brainwashing at its best.) Muslim fundamentalists are getting all the good press these days so their side can just hand you the front page and say, "At least ...!!" <br><br><br><br><br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Whatever truth there may be has to exist somewhere between empirical thinking and blind faith.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Why between? Why take anything on faith? What false comfort can be derived from that? <br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p><br>Chances are that if every child on the planet was raised as an Atheist, some of those children would grow up and find a faith or religion.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Of course they will. The false comfort of a deity is bred into our genes. It is what got us through those years living in caves while lightning lit the sky with bolts of light thrown by God. But as we progress I would only hope that the leaders of the world did not use religion to make war and kill others for God.<br><br>Those atheists that turn to religion can go live in mud huts somewhere where they belong.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>You've always had a "show no quarter" take on religion, which is really, just another form of intolerance.<p><hr></blockquote><p> Damn straight I am very intolerant of bullsh[/i]it.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>OH! Does this mean you're back? Or are you just toying with our affections? <p><hr></blockquote><p>Darn it. Am I posting at Macminute? I missed a tab. (Thought I was at crankyatheist.com) Well shoot, this thread is still here and God has been mentioned more than once. Did some as[i]shat moderator get his/her walking papers? This thread is a hundred times more offensive than the last time I got deleted. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

General thinking is that we finally caused his head to implode. That or Stan woke up and came to his senses. I'm thinking the latter, purely on faith. <br><br>Anyway, score one more for the good guys.<br><br><br><br><br><br><br>[color:blue]I always deserve it. Really.</font color=blue><br><br>