You can spin it any way you want to. Or make it as black and white as it needs to be to support your point of view. Just be very careful walking down the stairs with such shallow depth perception.<br><br>Morality accounts? Handicapping? IC, you're the one with the totally stilted POV. Don't accuse me of the same when I at least look at the longer view and factor the history of the region into the mix.<br><br>But don't sweat it. I know when I'm wasting my time. So carry on your daily news update, and I'll get my info elsewhere.<br><br>

<br>Ambulances make great target practice for the Israeli armed forces.<br><br>[color:red]Allez Cuisine! Bang a gong, it is on</font color=red>

<br>The UN is warning of an environmental catastrophe in the Mediterranean as a <br>large oil slick threatens the coasts of Lebanon and Syria. The oil largely <br>stems from fuel tanks at the coastal power station at Jiyyeh, which was <br>bombed by Israeli aircraft on 13 and 15 July.<br><br>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5255966.stm<br><br>[color:red]Allez Cuisine! Bang a gong, it is on</font color=red>

<br>23 Syrian workers were killed when Israel fired 4 missiles at a refrigerated<br>warehouse at the Syrian/Lebanon border. These workers were loading<br>vegetables and fruits onto trucks headed to Syria.<br><br>In Israel, army spokesman Capt. Jacob Dallal said that the army suspected <br>that the warehouse was used for arms because they tracked a truck believed<br> to be carrying weapons going into the building from the Syrian side, stayed<br> inside for about 90 minutes, then returning to Syria.<br><br>source<br>------------------------------<br><br>There you go, a truck entered the warehouse from Syria and then left back<br>to Syria, it was only a matter of time before Israel had to kill some civilians<br>in retaliation.<br><br><br><br>[color:red]Allez Cuisine! Bang a gong, it is on</font color=red>

Who are the bad guys in this war? The better question would be.... Are there any good guys?<br><br>_________________________________________<br>Just a different kinda geek...

Dammit, dj, this may be the first post you've ever made that I absolutely, totally, and unconditionally agree with! <br><br><br>I love you, man. <br>Come, let us sing Kumbaya together.<br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Who are the bad guys in this war? The better question would be.... Are there any good guys?<p><hr></blockquote><p>Good question.<br><br>Let's review - <br><br>2 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped which resulted in a "Crisis", notice the<br>lack of the word "War" because this really isn't a "War", well technically<br>Lebanon and Israel are at War because a formal peace agreement has never<br>been signed. Or technically, the "War" on terrorism is on because Hezbollah<br>has been designated a terrorist orgranization.<br><br>So we have a "War".<br><br>Only it's Lebanon vs. Israel. In the sense that Hezbollah being a state within<br>a state is firing rockets at Israel, so Israel rather than targeting Hezbollah<br>who are the terrorists, are targeting Lebanon the country as a sort of collective<br>punishment for not disarming Hezbollah - heck they had 2 years Lebanon<br>should have disarmed Hezbollah by now, even though after more than 20<br>years of occupation Israel couldn't disarm Hezbollah.<br><br>This is the "war on terrorism" - you know the one that Bush said either "you <br>are with us or you are against us". So the bad guys are Hezbollah because<br>they are the "terrorists" and Israel is fighting the "war on Terrorism" so they<br>are the good guys.<br><br>So far in this "War on Terrorism" - <br><br>Over a 100 Israeli citizens have been killed - mostly soldiers.<br>Over a 1000 Lebanon citizens have been killed - mostly civlians.<br>More Lebanese children have been killed than Israeli citizens.<br><br>Hezbollah is using primitive unguided rockets and Ak-47 rifles in close combat.<br>Israel is using the latest weapons provide by the US, fighter planes, tanks,<br>helicopters, etc. Yet ISRAEL HAS KILLED MORE CHILDREN THAN TERRORISTS <br>Yeah, let's do a collective WTF! What is going on?<br><br>Meanwhile in the UN, the US, which happens to be the weapons provider for<br>Israel, is looking for a "lasting peace" while Hezbollah and Lebanon have already<br>given a 7 point peace proposal, while Israel has made war plans for the <br>next 30 days.<br><br>You decide if there are good guys or bad guys.<br><br>-----------------------------------------------------<br><br>If this is the way we are going to fight terrorists by dropping smart bombs<br>on children, flattening apartment buildings in cities, creating environmental<br>catastrophes, shooting at Red cross ambulances, blowing up UN peace keeping<br>posts, destroying fishing boats, destroying a country and their economy to<br>fight a bunch of terrorists that number several hundred then I say we and I <br>mean we, the western world, that has labeled these people terrorists<br>have become no better and in fact worse than the terrorists we are fighting.<br><br>We have become worse than our enemy. We are the new terrorists.<br><br>Here is what we sponsor and let Israel do -<br><br><br>This is not a military target, this is someone's fishing boat. Someone's livelihood.<br>Someone needed this fishing boat to provide for their family. What possible<br>military use would this fishing boat serve? Israel has smart bombs, it's not<br>like they accidentally hit this boat. It was targeted for what ever reason.<br><br>but steveg would like you believe that this is complicated and "history" has<br>to factored. Topper is having a beer, while SgtBaxter is calling this fisherman<br>that lost his boat stupid and guilty, but wants you to donate to the American<br>Red Cross. Pretty f[/i]ucked up if you ask me.<br><br>If this is the War on Terrorism, count me out, I want no part of this.<br><br><br><br>[i][color:red]Allez Cuisine! Bang a gong, it is on</font color=red>

The Iron Chef has made some very pertinent points.<br><br>Either The US make crap weapons systems and train idiots to use them ..or.. We have a case of deliberate attempted genocide of the Lebanese people. The next generation will all be dead before they have time to form a religious or political bias. Obviously Israel's plan is to kill off all those who may one day grow up to remember this atrocity.<br><br><br>but where will we be when the future comes?

Yes, IC always makes pertinent points. So long as they support his POV exclusively, that is. Even when dj makes the obvious and inarguable point that no one entity is totally without culpability in this conflict. Oh my heavens no! Only Israel can wear the black hat here, friends. Hezbollah? They're just a bunch of misunderstood teens. Cut 'em a little slack, eh? Lebanon et al? That's another story. Can't deny that too many non-Hezbollah casualties have resulted. What Israel is trying to do is get those damned rocket launchers out of play ASAP and at any cost. Part one is a perfectly legitimate military strategy. Part 2 (at any cost) is where the legitimacy breaks down. That's a no-brainer. And unfortunately, the 10:1 death ratio is what one should expect from Israel. You slap them, they'll throw you a haymaker. It's an historic over-reaction that at one time was necessary, and has now become less appropriate.<br><br>There's an old anecdote from the 6-Day War: An Arab commander sends 3 battalions and tank column over a hill to take out an Israeli mortar installation. 20 minutes later one Arab soldier, bloodied and tattered, appears at the top of the hill waving what's left of his shirt. "Retreat." he shouts to his commander. "It's an ambush. There are TWO of them!"<br><br>This, unfortunately, is how Israel operates because after thousands of years of persecution and mass evictions, they've dug in their collective heals. I don't see that as justification for killing so many Lebanese innocents, but I do find it rather ironic that you accuse Israel of attempting to do what the president of Iran has vowed to do to them. Or what the Nazis damn near succeeded in doing 60-some years ago.<br><br>No, Israel is not out to vaporize the rest of the region. They are doing what they think is necessary to make sure the state is safe today, and safe tomorrow. Unfortunately, their idea of justification no longer jives with the world today.<br><br>

[quote]Over a 100 Israeli citizens have been killed - mostly soldiers.<br>Over a 1000 Lebanon citizens have been killed - mostly civlians.{/quote]<br><br>I think you'll find ALL the Lebanese killed are classed as citizens - Hezbollah members are not classed as "soldiers". They hide within the citizenry, they fire their rockets from civilian neighbourhoods, and the store their munitions in peoples homes.<br><br>The problem with this state of affairs is that you cannot target their supplies or their launchers without hitting unintended targets - no matter how accurate those weapons you are using are.<br><br><br><br>Another thing to consider - if the Israelis win, Lebanon will still exist. If they lose, the country of Israel will be wiped from the face of the earth. Knowing they only have to lose once, you think they're going to hold back against anyone attacking them?<br><br><br>- This is gonna get pretty interesting. <br>- Define "interesting". <br>- Oh, God, oh, God, we're all gonna die..