You sure that's a gif? Looks like it might be a JPEG to me...<br><br>And I think it got even BIGGER since the last time I saw it!!!<br><br>[color:red]Hold on...it's time for a</font color=red><br>

"love Clinton and are ambivilant about this country"<br><br>Being on the left does not make one ambivalent about the country my friend. Open political discussion is just a way to express differing views. Yeah, it may get heated at times and we all know the other person is not going to change. But, sometimes a good blast at something political is fun and informative too. I just hate to see intelligent people shying away from these topics in this time when they should be involved in the events that have transformed this country in the last year and two months. You know, that really interests me and I want to know all I can about what happened. That's my reason for discussion in political threads. You're an intelligent guy I would guess being a judge. Seems a shame not to voice your opinion doesn't it?<br><br>

Yeah, I find that things here get pretty silly sometimes and a serious discussion is in order now and then. Hey, we can be nice to each other and still talk about things that may be controversial now and then. <br><br>OK, sometimes things can get out of hand when the topic is a hot one. But, that is just the nature of people. Deal with it.<br><br>

Frankly, Sean, I don't see this as a serious thread. It's a thread in which certain folks can trot out their pre-formed ideas, which invites others to trot out their pre-formed ideas, and then the two groups can call each other names. I repeat what I've said above. I do not think that one can have a serious discussion of serious issues on a medium such as this. As a separate problem, it also doesn't help that what passes for political discourse on the popular media is one talking head shouting at another. Unfortunately, that's what "political" threads on fora end up imitating. Frankly, if I were silly enough to agree to be on one of those Fox or MSNBC shows, I'd leave two minutes after the "interview" started. The same, I think, applies to the run of the mill "political" discussion on web pages.<br><br>Why? Because the medium invites intemperance. It invites radicalization. It invites endless repetition of the same point. It does not invite reasoned argument, nor does it encourage real discourse.<br><br>So of course mikeb_x, who started this, is perfectly right to say that if he wants to post political threads he is entitled to do so. No one says he's not. But if you count (a) the number of times that people have expressed that no one has a right to tell them what to post and what not to post, and (b) the number of times that people have reiterated that the "rule" about not having political posts was a joke, I think you'll begin to see me point. No one really wants to listen to what the other person says.<br><br>As an example of a bull-headed, single-minded, "principled" position, let me stake out a position.<br><br>I suggest that anyone who has enough money to buy a Macintosh, to have internet access at home, and to have the time to sit and write messages accross cyberspace is automatically a capitalist pig. For such a person to then use this luxurious medium to berate others for being even more capitalistic because they vote Republican and Republicans are associated with the upper classes in America--that position seems to me the soul of hypocrisy, or so simple-mindedly unreflective that it really doesn't bear response.<br><br>Now, if anyone disagrees with me, clearly they are in denial at best, and probably craven cowards to boot. So let me repeat to such people, finding yourself on the web with a fancy schmancy computer brands you already. Stop pretending. If you want to revolution, do it the old fashioned way. Writing pathetic notes in cyberspace will not accomplish anything at all.<br><br>What? I get a response that I'm pathetic and full of sh!t myself? Well, then surely the responder is a real mother of a fscker and ought to be shot at dawn for his idiocy.<br><br>And so it goes.<br><br>By the way, I do not in fact subscribe to any of these ideas. Politically speaking, I'm a socialist by inclination and whenever possible by practice. I also recognize the falsity of my class position in that regard, by the way, for a number of reasons that I can't get into without writing a much longer--reasoned, logically developed (I hope), philosophically informed, historically positioned--disquisition. I also think that the politics of the current adminsitration are frightening; that George Bush, whom I like to think of as George III because he is the 3rd president with that name, is at best dull witted; that Dick Cheyney and John Ashcroft are a danger to the Constitution; that Donald Rumfeld ought to get a better barber.<br><br>So suppose I say all those things, not as a confession of my perspective, but as terms in an argument that can be conducted only at a distance, with essentially no time for carefu l consideration. What would I expect to get as a response? All of this is not to say that I am not curious about people's political, religious, generally intellectual positions. But I can't conceive that such perspectives could ever be expressed in the context of a "political debate" in a medium such as this. At any rate, I've never seen it happen.<br><br>I repeat the invitation that I made above, therefore, to have a thread in which each of us who is so inclined states his or her political position, justifies it as well as possible in an economical way, and then leaves it at that. Not for the sake of argumentation, in other words, but for the sake of a more thorough introduction of oneself to other folks. I understand why some folks would decline to participate. But I--like you, Sean--work in a field where expressing one's uncompromised position is not a problem.<br><br>Great wits are sure to madness near allied.--John Dryden, "Absalom and Achitophel"<br>

Post anything you want, fer cryin' out loud.<br><br>Thanks for your permission, but I didn't need it.<br><br>Listen, the fact that you feel you keep having to defend your position-<br><br>I'm sorry, and you're not? HYPOCRITE-- Line 3!<br><br> and accuse us all of avoiding politics because we're some sort of pro-Bush faction that can't stand to see "our candidate hung out to dry"<br><br>All? Don't think so. Some.<br><br>I think your real issue seems to be you can't handle anyone telling you otherwise! "What? I can't post about politics?!! Well, let me just get to the bottom of THIS matter!" You're like the kid who does something just because his parents told him he couldn't!! "Don't put your finger in that socket, Johnny".... "Oh yeah? Well that's just what I'm gonna do...nyah nyah nyah!!!"<br><br>Wow-- good thing you're setting such a "friendly" and "good times" example. For a minute there, I thought you were getting personal..<br><br>Try all you like, my ONLY issue is that this forum is set up for one and all, whether some like it or not, but if you want to pressure people to post kind and friendly posts.. practice what you preach.<br><br>PEACE<br><br>

That is a very good post and you make some interesting comments. My main reason for finding this kind of thing interesting to talk about with others, is that I am just appalled at the direction in which our leaders have taken this country. It is very unsettling. I have to talk about that sometimes here, I don't get much of a chance elsewhere. So bear with me from time to time if I wander into those areas of discussion.<br><br><br><br>

I'd want you to talk about whatever is on your mind, Mike. God forbid that you should feel the need to be silenced here or anywhere else! It's not the stating a position that seems to me pointless, but the arguments that come up after the position is stated. I'm not sure if that makes sense--I think I know what I mean, anyway <br><br>Great wits are sure to madness near allied.--John Dryden, "Absalom and Achitophel"<br>

Now you're just nit-picking at the way I'm phrasing my sentences...<br><br>Do what you want, or not. <br><br>I really don't give a sh*t anymore...<br><br><br>[color:red]Hold on...it's time for a</font color=red><br>

boy, if it wasn't a serious thread then you sure turned it into one. <br><br>my take on the discussions is that the purpose is not necessarily to see someone change his or her mind. like you, i rarely see that occur. i use these "discussions" to solidify my beliefs and strengthen my positions and it's just an extra opportunity to learn. if i can read a new argument against one of my beliefs, then i can also try and counter that new position or i can wait and see how someone else counters the position and learn from them. i can often read a post and learn a new well-reasoned angle when approaching a certain topic...something i can agree with but wouldn't have thought about on my own. i'll bet there are many people who read a post on a sensitive issue and think, "yeah, i know i felt that way about the topic, but i couldn't have said it nearly as eloquently as she did." in future discussions, perhaps with a colleague at work, i can use my new knowledge to discuss a particular topic with a little more flair and confidence. these forums are an excellent place to test your beliefs on people from all walks of life and from all different kinds of perspectives.<br><br>i almost make it sound like a competition, but in essense, it is. politics and political discussions are about winning and that's very much ingrained as a part of america...sports are wildly popular. politics are wildly popular. maybe nobody changes positions, but that doesn't make crossfire less entertaining and that's the bottom line to me. certainly some people would rather watch the cosby show, rikki lake or the cartoon network, but none of those shows rival the nielson ratings that 60 minutes consistently receives. in general, people like serious topics.<br><br>yes, it sad when the debates turn to name calling and the like, but most participants enjoy the process or they wound't return again and again. i have often had discussions with bganey or mattmac112 (or whatever it is) and felt very good when the thread has ended. i don't know that we've ever called each other names or gotten upset with each other, but i know that they've helped me to grow and i hope that they've appreciated my perspective as well.<br><br>by the way...i didn't buy any of the computers i use...the gov't owns them all. so, i am not the capitalist pig that some might believe. that being said, i would also guess that i am not that far from you politically. i never saw a vote by senator wellstone that i didn't like. <br><br>[color:blue] -sean</font color=blue>

I'll give you the entertainment value of some discussions. I guess I just get bogged down in the tit-for-tat stuff, of which there are examples in this very thread. I know, I know--selective reading is important! <br><br>Great wits are sure to madness near allied.--John Dryden, "Absalom and Achitophel"<br>